The Vine: April 29, 2009
I have a question for you and/or the readers, and it’s kind of a dating etiquette question, but with legal overtones too.
A few weeks ago I met the Guy on a blind date, and we’re both pleasantly surprised at how much we liked each other from the get-go, it’s pretty darn neat. Things seem to be getting more serious at a nice, leisurely pace.
The legal part doesn’t relate to him at all really, it’s nothing spectacularly awful, but it has to do with money owed or not owed, around $500, but I’m starting to think a lawyer would be a good idea. My workplace has a decent employee assistance program, and I’ve already had my free consultation; further questions would have to be paid for hourly, which I might do, though of course I’m hoping I don’t have to, since the fees might be more than the money in question. The consultation was fine, a few questions answered, but it posed some trickier ones that are more in-depth than a free consultation can handle.
So here’s the question: the Guy is an attorney. General practice, and the issue is probably something he knows a bit about. But…I’m hesitating to ask him about it. If we’d been together for a while of course I’d ask him for help, it’s what you do in a relationship. But the “relationship” is real REAL new, so new I still have to put quotes around it. I know I’m an overthinker by trade, but the cons of asking seem to outweigh the pros.
Con: he might go “wow, drama already? I think I’ll pass.” Or he might, as many professionals do, get annoyed that he works in this field all day and now in his down time someone ELSE is asking questions. (I mean, if I have to pay a retainer to anyone I’d MUCH rather pay HIM, but that’s a whole different set of awkwardness.) And I know he’d never think it, never, but…gah, the idea that he’d think I was hanging out with him for free legal advice. Yuck.
The pros are convenience of course, talking to someone I trust too, and also maybe he’d get to feel like he was the big macho lawyer coming to the rescue. (I think he’s totally macho anyway, but I’m biased.)
Yeah, I know, WAY overthinking this. Still, though, I’m interested in your knee-jerk reaction.(Or the opinion of any attorney readers out there.) Do I handle this on my own (which I totally can, it’s only a little scary, not world-shaking) or am I slighting him by not asking his opinion? As a lawyer, would you want someone you just started seeing to tell you about it?
As Problems Go It’s Kinda The Kind You WANT To Have
Dear Kinda,
I wouldn’t ask him.I can’t generalize about whether attorneys find this sort of thing irritating; it depends on the attorney, but it’s a preference specific to the person, I’d imagine, not to the job.
But I’m not comfortable trading on the professional expertise of someone with whom I have a personal relationship, not without offering up front to pay.I’m not talking about sitting around drinking beer and spit-balling hypotheticals; I mean something like, “Hey, remember when we used to ride bikes?Yeah, that was fun.So can you redraft my will?”Not that you’re doing that; I’m just clarifying the difference.
From the other side, same thing.Asking me a grammar question in passing is obviously fine; asking me to proof a 50-page document for free and not offering to pay is not going to happen for you.For a boyfriend of some standing, obviously it’s a bit different, but in that case, he’d already know the situation and he’d offer to help, or not.
That said, I don’t think there’s any harm in asking him more or less what you’ve just asked me here — asking him about asking him, in other words, just to clear the air.And you don’t have to keep the situation a secret; you can mention it in passing and get his opinion.But you should retain separate, formal counsel, not only to avoid presuming upon the personal relationship but also because paying-client status will serve you better on the legal matter.
Hi Sars,
I have been dating a wonderful person for about nine months. We were both previously in long-term (eight- and nine-year) relationships, but my husband moved out two Christmases ago and he was asked to leave by his partner shortly after she had their baby.
I own a house in the same city where we work; he rents a condo in the city where he used to live. His lease will be up in a few months and he wants to move in with me.
I’m deeply uncomfortable with the idea: I never lived with my husband before we were married by mutual consent, and it’s just not something I’m interested in doing.Also, I have a 5-year-old son and my mother despises my boyfriend, so I’m not 100% comfortable having him officially move in when it would cause so much stress.
The problem is that I have more or less let him move in with me for the past five months.Since September, I can count the number of times he’s spent at his apartment by himself on both hands.He knows that I’m not comfortable with him moving in officially, but he has no problem living out of a couple of drawers.He suffers from bouts of intense depression, and just about every time he has been away from me for the night, he’s spiralled and done self-destructive, pre-suicidal things.
I know that I shouldn’t feel that I need to protect him from himself, but there’s a part of me that just says, “He’s a good guy, why are you getting hung up about a situation that won’t happen if he moves in?”
Plus, I have friends who think that it’s ridiculous to pay two rents when he’s likely going to move in when/if we get married (and this person is a priest who married another priest without having premarital sex).
Should I let him rent until we figure it out, or have I been leading him on by not kicking him out?I sort of wish he was more psychologically independent before we got into anything really serious, but I trusted my husband and he turned out not so nice.
Confused in Cohabitation
Dear Coco,
Your friends can think whatever they want; it isn’t their life, and it isn’t about paying two rents.Your boyfriend isn’t stable and he isn’t dealing with that, and before he lives with you and a small child, officially or otherwise, you need to know — or at least think that most of the time — he can handle his shit.
This doesn’t mean he’s not a good guy.It means he doesn’t have his shit together, and moving in and making that adjustment is hard enough; it really shouldn’t be about one party needing the other to move in so that he doesn’t fall apart.You can’t fix his life and you shouldn’t try at the expense of your own.
And then, there’s this: “I sort of wish he was more psychologically independent before we got into anything really serious, but I trusted my husband and he turned out not so nice.”Listen up: your husband has nothing to do with this, that’s A.B, if you don’t want to get into anything really serious, don’t.If he’s over all the time and you’re fine with that, then leave it there, but if you wish he’d spend more time at his own home, say so.If you don’t want something heavy-duty, or a commitment on that level, don’t agree to one.
Not for nothing, but “he was asked to leave by his partner shortly after she had their baby,” and your mother hates him, and the…priest in the what now?Something about this guy ain’t quite right.Yeah, I’m sure there’s an explanation; there allllways is.But you know something ain’t quite right too, so don’t ignore your instincts and don’t submit to the pressure of your friends or the guy if you don’t really want him to move in.Fear of getting hurt again by an S.O. is one thing, but that’s not the fear I’m picking up here.
“It’s just not something I’m interested in doing.”I realize it won’t be that simple to “sell it upstairs,” believe me, but it is in fact perfectly adequate reason not to do it, and you really shouldn’t.
Hi Sars,
I’m not sure if this is an unique problem, but I’ve never seen it addressed in an advice column (and I’ve looked, believe me).I’m asking you because I like your style, and also because this is one of those things I can never say out loud to another human being, it just sounds so bad.
I don’t understand why all of my relationships, both romantic and platonic, are so intense.I don’t think I’m an “intense” person, although it would be fair to say I have a “strong personality” (I’ve always been opinionated, outspoken, and a little rebellious).I’m also drama-adverse, I like a lot of personal space, and I don’t get easily emotionally attached.
For some reason, though, it seems that other people get easily emotionally attached to me.(See what I mean?I sound like a delusional narcissist.But I am not trying to come off like I am the coolest person who ever lived — in fact, I’m sure this is MY flaw, I just can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong or how to fix it.)
When I was in elementary school, a slumber party devolved into all of the girls mad and crying about who was my best friend and accusing each other of trying to sabotage their friendships with me.When I got into minor squabbles with a friend, the rest of my friends would take my side, leaving the other girl completely ostracized until I decided it was okay to be friends again.This kind of stuff made me EXTREMELY uncomfortable, even as a kid.
Now I’m almost 30 years old, and I still talk to most of the people I was close with in high school.Some are still my closest friends, some I grew apart from and yet I still get phone calls from them a few times a year to “catch up.”
I have made a few new friends in the last couple of years, but all of those friendships have at one time reached a point where I was feeling smothered and I had to step back for a while.And these are good people who are good friends, they just inexplicably became clingy, wanting to hang out all the time, felt hurt if I did things without them, etc.
I have only had two boyfriends.I was with the first for three years, two of which we were living together.I was with my second boyfriend for four years.I ended both of these relationships, and they both probably lasted a bit longer than they should have because I was hoping they would break up with me first.
A very close friend sends me love letters several times a year since we were 18.We’ve never so much as kissed, and he’s had serious relationships with other girls, but the letters come anyway.He laughs about it and says it’s a soul-love that he feels even when he’s deeply in love with someone else.
I once went on a date with a guy who was just visiting my town for a few weeks, but he continued to call and email me (not in a romantic way, more like a pen pal) for months.I had a one-night stand while on vacation in a foreign country, and that guy called and left voice messages asking me to come visit him, asking if he could come visit me, until I changed my number.I was stalked by a guy I worked on a group project with in college — five years after the class ended.
And it’s not like I have some kind of animal magnetism.I’ve always had a few close friends rather than a large group of not-so-close friends.Other than my two long-term relationships, I can count the number of dates I’ve had on one hand.I feel like people either barely notice I exist, or they become obsessed with me.
What can I do, Sars?I just want to have normal, healthy, casual relationships with other people.I want to go on a date and be disappointed when he doesn’t call for a second date.I don’t think I’m seeking out unstable/obsessive people, because most of the individuals I’ve referred to in this letter have normal, healthy, casual relationships with other people who are not me (except for the stalker, obvs).
I also don’t think I encourage the intensity — rather than feeling flattered at the attention or whatever you want to call it, it makes me uncomfortable and, quite frankly, a little frightened for my personal safety if this pattern continues.What do you think?Do I need to be psychoanalyzed?Become a nun?Just get over myself?
All or Nothing
Dear All,
Okay, I do think that you should stop blaming yourself, in the sense of saying it’s your flaw and worrying that you have to fix it — it isn’t anything in your essential nature that’s bad.However, I do detect a certain passivity on your part in these situations.
Leaving aside the slumber party, because this kind of drama is a staple of grade-school-girl slumber parties and the victims are almost random, and also leaving aside the stalker because…well, stalker, I see these situations that you don’t like, that make you feel uncomfortable and conflicted, situations that occur over and over.I don’t see you doing anything to put a stop to them.
Let’s go through the letter.Slumber party, we’re not counting.Old friends from high school: it’s hard to say whether you wanted to stay close with the ones you stayed close with, or whether you just let that happen.The ones you feel you grew apart from, well, you continue to accept their calls and to catch up with them.They still know your current address.You don’t have to cut them off, but if you don’t want to do the catch-up phoners anymore, caller ID is not a recent technology; you can stop picking up calls from numbers not on your approved list, or begging off after 5-10 minutes.
Good friends who inexplicably became clingy: had you been hanging out with them all the time before?Had you been doing everything with them before?And then you stopped?You have every right to do that; the other people have every right to wonder why.If you don’t set boundaries, not everyone is going to know where they are (see: the rest of The Vine).
Both your serious boyfriends: you hoped they’d break up with you first.This is the main plank in my “you don’t take control of these situations” platform, frankly; the rest of it is just a sense I get from your diction, and from knowing that women are socialized to think that not wanting to respond to attention in kind is rude, we should be flattered, dance with them what brung ya, et cetera.And nobody wants to initiate the breakup conversation, so I feel you.But you were done, and you didn’t say so, either time.
The close friend who sends you love letters: why haven’t you told him to stop?Why don’t you just throw them away?It’s not really a friendship anymore; he’s in love with you, and you tolerate it.It’s not really acceptable for either of you, so why not tell him, “Friend, I care about you, but not in that way, so stop putting me in this position”?
On and on it goes like this, the pen-pal guy who kept calling…why’d you keep picking up?No, it didn’t do any harm, I guess, and you didn’t dislike him, but then here he is in this letter about how you want to figure out how not to encourage people like him.
It may sound to you like I am in fact blaming you; I’m not.But I do think you have to readjust your understanding of what “encouragement” can look like, and for a lot of people, it’s identical to “no active dis-couragement.”Sometimes people project their ideas of what’s going on onto you; sometimes people don’t get hints; sometimes they’re stalkers and it’s just bad wiring.But in your case, you’re continuing to receive this attention that you don’t want and then wondering why the attentive haven’t figured out you don’t want it.
So.Go buy The Gift of Fear and read it.It’s not because you had a stalker; it’s because you have to learn that not wanting attention is okay even in situations where it’s not about danger.Then, remind yourself whenever you have to that a person does not have to be dangerous or an out-and-out asshole for you not to be interested in spending time with them.It doesn’t make him, or you, a bad person; it just means you aren’t interested, and that is okay.
And from now on, when a friend or a date is annoying you, behaving inappropriately, or making you uncomfortable, say so, require that they stop, and leave the situation if they don’t.This is not easy, you will not do it perfectly, and it can feel really unnatural and harsh, but if you’re tired of feeling controlled by other people’s emotions about you, you’ll have to take control.
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette friendships
If Kinda’s guy is with a firm, she’ll have to go through the formal process of engaging him through the firm. It’s not a problem for solo practitioners, but attys in groups have to vet conflicts through the whole group – so picking up stuff on the side is typically not cool, ethics rules-wise.
I’m lucky, in that my practice is generally completely inapplicable to any legal issues family/friends need lengthy help with. Although I cannot count the number of times I have been on a bus downtown, some guy asks what I do, I say I’m an attorney, and he comes on to me by saying “So, you aren’t by any chance a *divorce* attorney, are you? [cue attempt at sexy eyes]” So. Weird.
I agree completely with Sars’ last paragraph. Separate formal counsel, yes. Run it by him in passing, yes. Ask him about asking him, yes. All sound. I think you are already sensitive to the issues presented by people in the social sphere seeking one’s professional help, so plow ahead with ease. One way you might approach it is by asking him for a referral. That gives him the chance to say, if he can, “oh, I’d be happy to look at this for you” or to gracefully sidestep by sending you to someone good.
And I’m sorry the whole $500 thing is presenting itself in the first place. Legal troubles suck and can be really expensive, not to mention stressful beyond words. Hang in there.
So, why not approach the almost boyfriend who happens to be a lawyer with “Hey, we’re new, and I don’t want to presume upon this for free advice, but you know lawyers I could pay for advice, so perhaps you could recommend one to me?” and then see what happens. He’ll either offer to take a look at the problem or give you the name of someone who can help. And likely he’ll be happy you aren’t taking advantage of the situation either way.
Confused – “He suffers from bouts of intense depression, and just about every time he has been away from me for the night, he’s spiraled and done self-destructive, pre-suicidal things.” Just reading that gave me flashbacks to my very much EX fiancé. He did the same things every time he screwed anything up. It took me years to realize that it was just another way that he tried to control me. Instead of dealing with what was actually wrong (or what he did wrong – different issues, same result), I’d have to deal with the fact he was having scary hallucination or talking about throwing himself off the balcony or threatening to self injure or what have you.
It took me way too long to figure out that it was a control thing. I do not believe he was doing it consciously – but the fact that he was doing it at all was the problem.
“He’s a good guy, why are you getting hung up about a situation that won’t happen if he moves in?” My guess, only from personal experience, is that if he’s emotionally damaged enough that he can’t spend a single night alone, he’s probably going to have some other issues that haven’t been dealt with.
Oh, I started to massively overshare what happened to me, because there are some major similarities, and realized this isn’t the place. I can just say that for me, the spiraling was very much a symptom of deeper problems – problems that I couldn’t fix no matter how hard and how long I tried, and it dragged me down too. It went on for years too long and I wished I had recognized the signs when we were dating, before we moved in together. If you want to discuss it more in depth, email me at peasantwench AT hotmail DOT com and I’d be happy to share more.
Okay, on the lawyer thing.
You should understand something at the outset, which is that this isn’t strictly about what he wants to do — ethically speaking, lawyers aren’t allowed to give legal advice casually. It’s unethical to go around spouting legal advice unless you’ve taken the time to become as familiar with their case as you need to in order to…be their lawyer. The same applies to limiting your advice to the areas in which you’re qualified.
When people ask me legal questions, I always lead off with, “I can’t tell you what to do; everything has exceptions and every state is different; if you need legal advice, you need an actual lawyer who’s qualified in the area you’re talking about.” I really do say it, and I really do mean it, and I really do try to make sure people understand that I mean it.
But then, I usually feel pretty comfortable saying something like, “I can’t tell you how it’s going to affect your particular situation, but the kinds of questions that are going to be relevant here are [blah blah blah].” There’s nothing wrong with sort of helping people understand how an area of law generally works, I don’t think, but it really *is* hazardous and a bad idea for lawyers to try to opine about your particular situation based on a cocktail-party rundown.
(You’d be amazed how somebody can, for instance, tell you the entire story of how they were fired because of illegal discrimination and then, at the very end, be like, “I’m pretty much positive it wasn’t because I was a half-hour late every day and then I burned down the office.” And you’re like, “Hmm, well, that will be relevant.”)
With that said, my personal prediction is that this is exactly what he’ll tell you — at worst. Some lawyers will go right ahead and give you an opinion, even if they technically shouldn’t. But in my experience, at worst, they’re like, “Eh, I can’t really advise you.” My guess is that this happens to him often enough that it won’t imperil the relationship, especially if you do what Sarah said and kind of lead off by asking about asking — “Can you share any thoughts you have about a legal question, or would you rather not?” I think if you show sensitivity to it, there’s no way he’s going to be mad; that will be enough.
As far as “Kinda’s” lawyer problem goes, I think that as long as you have a primary lawyer taking care of all of this, it’s perfectly fine to discuss it with the new boyfriend. Most professionals love to give advice. They love the sound of their own voice. But they are sensitive to the whole “freebie” thing. If you say to him, “my lawyer thinks we should do a, b and c” he’d probably love to give his own opinion on the matter. But if you said, “wow, what should I do about a, b and c? You’re a lawyer, right?” then he might feel strange.
Morgan’s advice mirrored a lot of what my initial alarm bells were thinking when I read CoCo’s note.
I just finally extricated myself from a long and painful relationship with someone who sounds a lot like her guy. At the beginning we were dating and getting very close, and we were spending every night at each other’s places, etc. Then he lost his job and kept getting his electricity turned off and had a lot of debt and blah blah suggested he should move into my place to “stop paying two rents” and since we were always together anyway. I really wasn’t comfortable with the idea. I didn’t feel ready. But given the seeming strength of the relationship and feeling like I should help someone I care about in need, I went along with it.
But the issues he had that led to his debt and job loss and all of that did not go away. And it became clear he was not in a position to be a healthy stable adult. And the consequences for me financially and emotionally were dire.
The point is…I may have realized all of this in a less detrimental way if I had insisted things progress at a rate I was comfortable with instead of going along with what someone else was telling me “made sense”. If you’re not ready and are feeling the pressure from others…don’t do it. You have to trust your instincts, especially when the person in question has apparent emotional problems that you may only be scratching the surface of. It is a LOT harder to get away from a toxic situation once you’ve let it into your living space.
@Kinda: I’m an attorney, and I would prefer hearing “I’m thinking I might need to see an attorney about [insert <1 minute explanation of problem]. Do you have any friends or coworkers who you could suggest I talk to?” That would give me the opportunity to share any knowledge I might have on the subject if I wanted to, but would also make it easy to say “I’ll check around and see” if I didn’t feel comfortable giving any feedback or advice. Lots of friends have said that to me since I passed the bar, and it’s never bothered me – the ones that bother me are when they blatantly say “You’re a lawyer, right? What do you think of ____________?”
coco-
Saving rent would only stand if you were remotely comfortable with living together and otherwise ready to get married. You’re not. He needs to find his own place else and go live there.
He needs to be in treatment and improving on the mental and emotional fronts before you get any closer to moving in or getting married. There’s a lot of “ifs” to sort out besides his depression: if he didn’t emotionally blackmail you on the rare occasions when he couldn’t monopolize you, if he respected your values, if he can be the sort of (responsible, committed, parenting-style) father you want for both your kids, if he’s ready to be a step-dad for your son, if you’re ready to be a step-mom for his baby, if he and his ex get along and work together for sake of their kid, if he could make peace with your mom, if he’s legally and religiously free to marry you, and if there is anything else that you let slide because he’s mentally ill or “a good guy.”
It wouldn’t be a bad idea for you to get help learning how to speak up for your values and stand up for what you and your son need. Good luck.
‘From the other side, same thing. Asking me a grammar question in passing is obviously fine; asking me to proof a 50-page document for free and not offering to pay is not going to happen for you.’
I love this example. It is an excellent rule of thumb when asking a friend or family member in *any* job for their professional opinion. Is it something that you can work into a conversation and have them talk to you about it for less than twenty minutes and get it handled? Then, it’s cool. Is it something they are going to have to spend time researching and then get back to you on? Then, you should be picking up the tab for the evening’s beers or letting it drop.
A lot of people that do something 9-5 don’t necessarily like to do that same thing for free on their own time. They often will anyway because they feel guilty not helping their friends or family, but that doesn’t mean it’s fun times for them. I’d never ask my electrician brother to come over and re-wire things in my place for free, and when I helped him buy a new computer, set it up, and transfer everything from his ancient POS that wouldn’t even read a USB drive, he paid me for my trouble. Much less than he would have had to pay the Geek Squad, but enough that I didn’t feel like my time and effort wasn’t appreciated.
I think this is an etiquette question more people should know about that goes beyond just lawyers, who seem like they have a whole other cluster of reasons why it might not be a great idea for them to answer random law questions.
My only caution about “I’m thinking of seeing an attorney; can you recommend someone?” is that if I heard that, I’d never presume to offer my own advice. If you ask me for a recommendation, I assume you want a recommendation. As Sarah said, I think it’s a matter of individual taste, because I’d never respond, even in an area where I was qualified, to a request for a referral by jumping in myself. So just be aware that if you want any advice he’s willing to give, you may have to ask for it.
I wholeheartedly agree with Linda (law school dropout, but I pretty much learned that you are not supposed to give legal advice casually, no matter what the situation).
I wouldn’t ask him for advice before you hire a lawyer, if that’s what it will take to solve it. It’s like giving a doctor who you recently befriended for medical advice: you risk putting him in an awkward position where he can’t get out of helping you and/or answering your questions without worrying you’re gonna get upset at him for it.
Afterward, you can probably mention it in passing, in a “well [problem] happened, I’ve already got a lawyer, but I’m kind of nervous about it”. That would allow him to throw moral support your way without feeling obligated to do anything more than provide a sympathetic ear if you need it.
“asking”, not “giving”. Duh.
Coco, I’m glad Sars mentioned that this guy is ringing a few alarm bells, because to make a sweeping generalisation (and I know every person is different) as I’m sure you remember, I’m trying to think of a situation where I would have turfed out the father to go solo a MONTH after having a baby and it wouldn’t be because he never remembers to hang the bath mat up. (I might have stuffed the bath mat down his throat until he suffocated while screaming “pick up the freaking bath mat”, but that’s sleep deprivation for you). It would be pretty major deal and this started off a ding ding, which continued through your letter.
He needs to get sorted before you even think of moving in together, because you already have one child to look after, anyone entering you life has to be able to help carry your load, not be another de facto child you have to manage. This is not to belittle depression AT ALL, but is what you’ll essentially be signing up for if he is not treated.
While I’m being all preachy, All, I just finished Chip Kidd’s The Cheese Monkeys and a line a character says jumped out at me “after 25, you’re no longer a victim, you’re a volunteer”. It’s a little trite and not universal, but I’ve actually found it a useful mantra to remind me that I can take action in certain situations, instead of passively gritting my teeth and hating it.
Hey, Confused:
DO NOT move in with this guy. You have a son who is your responsibility and should be your priority. It doesn’t mean you can’t date or be in a relationship or eventually remarry. It means you have to keep your son’s well being in mind when you bring someone into his life.
Your boyfriend has some major issues to sort out, and you seem to have evolved into his caretaker, which isn’t helping him work to resolve these issues. Instead, it’s like you just swoop in to rescue him. You are his crutch.
Take care of yourself and take care of your son. I’m seeing some huge red flags here. You said it yourself: “I’m deeply uncomfortable with the idea.” Listen to that. That is your intuition talking, and you’d be wise to listen.
@All Or Nothing-
What Sars said, obviously, but I wanted to highlight this: “I feel like people either barely notice I exist, or they become obsessed with me.”
If you think the options are “ignored” or “smothered,” I can understand why you’d take “smothered.” But as noted, you seem very passive about the whole process. Maybe part of the issue is that you wait for other people to seek you out as a friend/date/whatever? If you always wait for people to come to you instead of ever approaching people yourself, you’re going to wind up with people who are… pushier, at the very least. So along with learning to reject some kinds of attention, you might also need to take more control over initiating relationships yourself.
(I had a very charming & very insecure friend who had a pattern like that, so maybe I’m reading into it, I don’t know. But that sentence really jumped out at me.)
Confused: You’ve basically said “He knows I don’t want him to move in, but every time I send him home he threatens to kill himself,” and to me that sounds like “He knows I don’t want him to move in, but he’s trying really hard to force my hand by convincing me that, if I don’t let him move in, I’ll be responsible for his death.” I mean, I guess it’s possible that he’s a decent guy who just needs someone to lean on right now, but for him to completely fall apart every time he has to spend the night at his own place does not sound like a totally innocent coincidence.
(And even if he is a decent guy who just needs someone to lean on right now, that still makes it a bad time to move in together.)
@All or Nothing,
Everything that Sars said but in addition to “The Gift of Fear”, I would also say that assertiveness training could also be really beneficial. You don’t hear alot about it these days, it appears to be out of fashion but I am sure there are some one-on-one or group training available. The reason for my suggestion is that I found it hugely helpful when I did it, particularly when you do role plays/exercises and get feedback about your body language, how you phrase things etc. It also teaches alot about trusting your instincts, reading other people’s signals (so you can nip things in the bud early) It was recommended to me because I was experiencing some similar things to you. As with all things though, it only works if you continue to practice it. I didn’t see the effects immediately but 10 years later I couldn’t even imagine being in the situations and experiences I use to be in.
@Coco-I would say that that maybe you would also benefit from the book and some assertiveness training as well. I just found both your and All’s letter similar in a strange way. Not trusting your instincts, feelings and opinions and allowing/relying way too much on what other people say or think. Assertiveness training really fastracked un-learning this sort of stuff for me, as well as being able to set boundaries. I believe because you have to get out of your head and DO exercises, activities etc. You also have support because it doesn’t feel ‘right’ or comfortable doing these things, even though they are the right thing to do. As all the other thoughtful people here have said, act upon what YOU feel (as in you aren’t comfortable with him moving in, so don’t let him) even if it doesn’t make sense to anyone else, even yourself. Trust me, I think it will make a whole lotta sense down the track and you will be thankful you followed your intuition.
All, maybe you are just befriending needy people, and then feel that you have to emotionally support them. It makes you sound like you need to feel wanted and emotionally superior to these people. I bet you have saved all those letters and e-mails. I agree with Sars, if you don’t want the life sucked out of you, don’t answer the phone, delete the e-mails unread. Let these folks know you are moving on. What will happen if you get new and / or more friends. Do you really want friends who won’t let you grow?
@Coco: I realise you’re getting a wealth of information about this, but… yeah. Dude is ringing about a hundred bells, and I don’t even know the guy. “He suffers from bouts of intense depression, and just about every time he has been away from me for the night, he’s spiraled and done self-destructive, pre-suicidal things.”??? This is… not normal. Yes, everyone has their own degree of being fucked up and some have diagnoses, but… he either needs to get some help or he needs to be in his self-destructive, pre-suicidal spiral without taking you and (more importantly) your CHILD down with him. A friend of mine got out of a relationship with someone she described similarly after they had been dating a few weeks. Then he tried hanging himself in his closet, started blacking out, and decided that he wanted to live, which only gave way to several more months of self-destructive behavior, only with my friend trying to prevent the suicidal part of it.
@All or Nothing: I have to echo what Strega said, with an addition of: start figuring out who you want to be around (and for how long, etc. etc. etc.), because it doesn’t sound like you do.
Sars,
Your advice is great, and I thus rarely have anything to add, but I had to say that I enjoyed this very much:
“and the…priest in the what now?”
Thank you.
If I was Kinda I’d probably mention that I had some legal issue I was getting advice on and dealing with – from a ‘we’re dating and we talk to each other about stuff in our lives’ point of view – and then see if he offers any helpful suggestions. But as others have pointed out, he won’t actually be able to give formal advice.
I have a slightly different perspective on Coco’s situation – I, to my friends, am the person who is sometimes suicidal and has Issues and needs taking care of from time to time.
On the one hand? No, this isn’t about controlling them. I have an illness. My friends are helping me because they love me, and it’s worth some time and effort and stress for them to keep me alive and in *their* lives.
On the other hand, though: I’m getting treatment for my illness. I take medication. I see a clinical psychologist AND a psychiatrist. And I’m not dating my friends – or anyone, because I’m not capable of being in a healthy romantic-type relationship right now. I do, in fact, live with my closest friends, but when they have their own stuff to do, I spend time on my own or with different friends. And when I’m on my own and can’t handle it, I call Lifeline, or other people whose job it *is* to deal with this kind of thing. I’m an adult. While people who love me and want to be a part of my life are wonderful, and, if they choose, can be really really helpful in copng with/healing from this stuff, it’s not something they HAVE to do and it would be totally fucking wrong for me to act as if it is. Even by implication.
Coco’s boyfriend needs to step up and seek real help before he makes himself someone else’s soul-sucking responsibility.
@Kinda: Could you say, “I’ve got this problem, any suggestions for an attorny?” That’s a pretty reasonable thing to ask– you’re not asking for his help, but if he could name someone off the top of his head. And he probably can– and if he can’t, that’s okay.
@Confused: I’m definitely with Sars on this one. He knows you’re uncomfortable with him moving in, but he’s pushing for it anyway? “just about every time he has been away from me for the night, he’s spiralled and done self-destructive, pre-suicidal things”– that’s not right, that’s not something you should have to deal with or be responsible for, especially with a kid in the house. And maybe you do need to tell him that he needs to get himself sorted out -get help, get psychologically independent, etc- before you could even think about him moving in with you.
But actually, the guy also just makes me uncomfortable. Moving in together shouldn’t be about one person pressuring (or worse, presuming) and one person giving in. That doesn’t say much about him or you and it says less about the relationship
@Coco
You have a child. It is your responsibility to control (as much as you can) the environment around that child in order to protect him. If you feel hesitant about something, go with your instinct. I don’t think anyone could fault you if you said you didn’t think it would be good for your child.
thanks everyone…i pretty much knew this was what the consensus would be, but it’s good to hear it confirmed. the assertiveness training is an interesting idea – i never really thought of that as my problem, but now i’m starting to wonder if i haven’t been assertive in my life so much as just lacked opportunities to be passive.
to clarify two points that came through poorly:
1) my mom hates him because she was (briefly) abused by her stepfather and hates the idea of anyone in a similar role taking care/advantage of my son. i’m positive that my mom would hate anyone in this role. oh, and she hated my husband for just about the whole time we were together.
2) the priest with the priest thing. what i meant to say was, my friend, who is a fairly conservative priest, who married another priest without having premarital sex, thinks we should just move in. my point, which i’m still not getting across all that well, is that she is a deeply conservative, highly intelligent woman who thought we should go for it, which influenced my decision.
also, it’s been a few months since i wrote my letter, and i (unfortunately) let things continue as they were. i was pregnant for 7 weeks as well, which muddied the waters incredibly. we’re moving in the last of his stuff tomorrow, and i haven’t gotten any easier with it. i think i need to tell him to rent an apartment, asap. well, i *know* that’s what i need to do. i just need to get the courage to do it.
@Coco,
Also, and this might be minor, most divorce decrees prohibit the parties from living with members of the opposite sex they’re not related to or married to. I know my boss (who is a judge) would consider that a reason to change custody to your ex-husband. I’m not giving you legal advice or anything, just a heads-up.
@Kinda
My official legal advice to you is not to bring it up at all — you really don’t want to put this on him when you’ve just started dating.
I’ve been in this guy’s shoes. A guy I’d been dating for 3 months got into some relatively minor trouble with Johnny Law and asked me what he should do. That put me in the position of feeling like I had to at least steer him in the right direction (even though everything in me was screaming not to do it). But I really liked him and wanted things to work out. They didn’t. And I regret having stepped into the middle of his personal drama.
@Coco
Agree with everyone else. DO NOT LET THIS GUY MOVE IN. This sentence, in particular, jumped out of your letter:
“I know that I shouldn’t feel that I need to protect him from himself, but there’s a part of me that just says, “He’s a good guy, why are you getting hung up about a situation that won’t happen if he moves in?”
There’s 2 possibilities here, with some gray area between:
1) He’s truly suicidally depressed.
2) The self destructive things are, consciously or unconsciously, a manipulative tool to get you to let him move in.
If its #2, that speaks for itself. If its #1 him moving in is not going to fix his mental health with the wave of a wand. If he is truly suicidally depressed, do you think that him moving in with you will magicly cure his depression? It won’t. Adjusting to moving in with a new person and her CHILD will be more stress, not less. He needs to get treatment, and work on getting himself to a stable place BEFORE he moves in and assumes a de facto parental role of a five year old child.
As for the legal advice, I always assume that people don’t want to (and are ethically constrained from) working for me for free. My approach is really along the lines of “I think I might need to engage an attorney. Would you mind listening to a brief description of what I think the problem is and letting me know if you agree? And if so, maybe you could help me figure out who would be a good person to go to?” This opens the conversation in a way that doesn’t scream “Give me free advice!” while still letting the other person offer an opinion if they care to do so. And it also leaves them free to simply offer a recommendation of an attorney if that is their desire.
I would never let a friend treat me medically, act as my attorney, or copy edit one of my books. Even if I paid them. But I have let friends talk me into (and out of) seeking various kinds of treatment, legal help, and editing assistance. If they know more about it than I do, and we’re clear about the boundaries, then I see no harm in a brief conversation.
In fact now that I think about it, all three of these letters today are about boundaries.
CoCo: If you wanted to do it, it wouldn’t feel like pressure. If it feels like pressure, then it isn’t what you want to do. And as far as “saving paying two rents†goes, well, it certainly seems as if it would save HIS having to pay rent. You’re worried about leaving this guy on his own for one night, but your friends think he’ll cough up half the mortgage payment? There is a good chance that this won’t happen. Either he’s adult enough/stable enough to pay his own way, and therefore able to spend a night by himself – or he’s too unstable to spend a night by himself, and I wouldn’t count on his fiscal dependability, either. However, that’s not the real issue: what’s really important is that you don’t want to do this; even more important, honestly, is WHY would you expose your child to a person who’s that unstable? It has to be a frightening situation for a child, and your son has nowhere else he can go to live; Guy is not a five-year-old, and there are alternatives for him, including hospitalization, if he needs it.
Autiger 23
I love you. I can’t tell you the number of people who have assumed that just because I have a skill, I want to use it to their benefit, FOR FREE. And I have a friend who is unlucky enough to be talented in a number of areas, and everybody who knows him assumes that because they know him, OF COURSE he will fix their (name it) at any time – FOR FREE. It’s taken him years to learn (with help) that no, he’s not actually obliged to help someone just because he/she asks.
I just want to say that it could be the coffee talking, but I love all the TN/Vine readers out there (and Sars, too, of course). Everyone’s always so measured and pragmatic in their comments; people are always so willing to acknowledge all the points of view. And that’s why I read the threads on this site and virtually no others. Cheers!
Coco, you need to stop this NOW. You are moving in the last of his stuff tomorrow???!!! No, no, a thousand times no. If he’s actually in, it will be 1000 times harder to get him out. You don’t need to tell him to “rent an apartment ASAP” you need to tell him, “I’m sorry, I’m not ready for this, and you will need to find a hotel tonight.” If he can’t make arrangments at this point to keep his existing lease, then you can help him move his things to a storage bin. But once you have actually let him in your place, he will have NO motivation to go looking for an apartment until you kick him out. Trust me, six months from now he will still be “looking.” Put an end to this before it starts.
Coco, Sars is dead-on. It’s SO MUCH HARDER to say “Please move out” than it is to say “Please don’t move in!” Stop it now, or you’ll be crying & dividing the CD collection & screaming at each other about who owns that copy of “Catcher in the Rye” and all that unnecessary ugliness. Make the tiny gesture that will tip the sitch til it goes over the edge & starts to roll all on its own,( if that makes sense.) If you just say ONE SENTENCE, say “I’ve changed my mind” -the ball will be rolling. You can do it! (And if it helps, you will be saving this man all the drama of moving back out. It’s a mercy, really.)
All, I believe ALL of us should read ‘The Gift of Fear’ – it should be mandatory in high school of something.
Sars, “(see: the rest of The Vine).” made me snork right out loud. Hee. Good one.
@CoCo
He needs to get counseling, as soon as possible. You might find counseling to be helpful yourself, for emotional support through this. If you need help finding a counselor, go to http://www.suicidehotlines.com/ to find your local crisis line for referrals, especially sliding scale if you don’t have insurance. If you have insurance, try calling them for a referral. There does NOT have to be an immediate suicidal emergency going on for you to call a crisis line. If he is in immediate danger of killing himself, get him to the hospital, call 911 if you need to.
@Sami
I have answered for crisis lines and I’m very glad to hear that they are helpful to you. Please call us again if you need to!
Good luck, take care of yourselves and best wishes to both of you!
Coco,
Although I’m just going to add to the chorus of don’t move ins, I have a slightly different angle. I’m still in a relationship, and living with, a guy who I didn’t particularly want to officially “move in” with, even though he was already spending nearly every nigth with me. He’s a wonderful guy, but I’m still wishy washy on the relationship, and it means that I should have listened to my doubts and said no to moving in. So, even if your boyfriend didn’t exhibit signs of mental instability, if you don’t want to officially move in together, don’t.
Hee. I’m a Media Studies PhD student, and now I think the next time someone asks me what I think about a TV show (or reality TV–everyone wants to know what I think of reality TV), I’m going to tell them, “I don’t feel comfortable with this, but can recommend other media scholars who could help.”
:)
@Coco: every time Ive gone against my instincts, I’ve regretted it. I’ve been in situations where the pros list is long and the cons list is “But I just don’t want to†or whatever, but that isn’t what this is – the cons far outweigh the pros, to me, especially with a young child. If your mom knows even a little of what you’ve put in your letter, I kind of don’t blame her for hating him (I know she comes from her own stepfather issues, but she’s not wrong to be cautious in this situation) Tell him you changed your mind, now, today, and get him out of your house. I know you care about him, but he is not your responsibility. The safety and comfort of yourself and your child IS, and I’m not convinced, at all, that this guy is capable of contributing to that.
@ everyone: I have read The Gift of Fear, and I highly recommend it, particularly for young women – we’re socialized to be quiet, to not make a scene, to think all attention is good attention, and it helped me break down that notion and become comfortable with speaking up in potentially dangerous situations. The guy who rubbed him … self against my ass on the subway got a kick in the shin and a “BACK UP,†in a loud and forceful voice.
CoCo
I was reading along, calmly enough, through all the responses, and gasped out loud when I saw your follow-up note.
I had a bipolar mother. I was engaged, for far too long, to someone who told me often that he would kill himself if I broke up with him. The things that made you uncomfortable about your friend and his moving in remind me strongly of the red flags i saw when i met and got to know the man who became my mother’s second husband. After being married to him only 2 months, my mother wanted a divorce.
You said “We are moving in the last of his stuff tomorrow.” So, some of his stuff is still somewhere else. LEAVE IT THERE. Start taking whatever is at your place back to his old place , today, right now.
really. I’m not kidding.
the most mature, well balanced five year old in the world can not deal with the personality you described, and i believe no child can deal with a suicidal personality (or manipulative personality – pick either one) without long term harm. You can take radical action today, and STOP THIS. I believe you should do just that. It will be hard for you, hard on you, but no matter how well you can handle this, your son can not.
My inner five year old self from 50 years ago begs you to stop this now, for your son’s mental well-being.
Like another, I can go on for a long time about why, likely outcomes, how much harder it will be to get the friend out of your house once he moves in.
No matter how hard it is to stop this today, it will be thousands of times harder in a week, or a month. It may be impossible. This requires a radical action, today, for you and your son.
How radical? I would change the locks before your friend got back. I would call the police to help you hand him his belongings back.
Yep, that sounds cruel. Radical. Unnecessary. Harsh.
I have never taken ( nor recommended) such radical actions. But my similar experiences make me believe that you are at a point in time where a radical action now can save you a world of frustration. And you can save your son from a lot of unnecessary pain.
At this moment, think of yourself as a mother bear protecting the cubs.
===============================
Well, that reads like I am a maniac. Even so, I mean every word. Move his stuff out now, before he finishes moving in.
As a lawyer who is frequently hit up for advice (sweeties included), here’s what I’m comfortable doing: looking at a document to tell you what it says, or giving you a referral to someone with a solid reputation or legal hotline or bar association-affiliated attorney or a law school clinic that works on a sliding scale, or asking questions to see if your retained attorney is on the right track/giving good service. If you’re my good friend or boyfriend, I’d do extended research to answer a specific legal question. But if you exhausted the free consultation and there’s plenty more there, I think you’re beyond what the new relationship can bear, even if it weren’t so new. What if he gives you incorrect advice? Or you fail to tell him some critical fact that changes the advice? Danger lies that way.
I like the advice above — mention that it’s happening (I don’t think it’s all that dramatic, if presented the right way), maybe get a referral. You could make it less dramatic by mentioning it as something that’s going on as part of your day (“Oh this dude who owes me money called me at work and I had to deal with him.”) rather than all dramatic (“Ok, are you sitting down? I have a story to tell you.”) I inadvertently did this when I mentioned to a new dude that I’d successfully armchair diagnosed someone using knowledge gleaned from House, and he (a doctor) gave me some good websites and articles. Not a big deal. Things happen. If you don’t make a big deal out of it, chances are he won’t either.
Oh, Coco, move him out. Thirty eight strangers on the net (so far) have felt as heeby as you about this guy and they haven’t even met him!
Call a phlanx of freinds to be there when you tell him. Send your son to his dad’s (if he’s okay to be with your son) or to a freind’s overnight so he won’t have to be around for it. If necessary, call the police. This is YOUR LIFE. You have a child you love and need to protect. Reread every word of Sami’s reply, print it out and hand it to him.
I’m sorry everything got so muddy and screwed up for you, but it is NEVER TOO LATE TO RECTIFY MATTERS. Yes, it’s much more inconvienent now, but do you really want the inconvienence to be the ruling factor in the rest of your life???
From your original letter and update, I don’t even get the impression you see him as a regular human being anymore (albeit one with a lot of big problems), but as some force of nature, rolling through and thrashing your life into an unrecognizable shape. He is not. Let me say it again. HE IS NOT.
Boy, I’ve bolded a lot of things in this. But I had to, because this is a big friggin’ deal. There is no “I think I have to” at this point, only “I KNOW I have to deal with incredibly hard thing, now. Today. I and my son deserve better than this life-replacing drama.”
Margaret in CO: I would like to add The Sociopath Next Door, by Martha Stout, to the Tomato Nation Required Reading List. It should have pride of place next to The Gift of Fear on everyone’s bookshelves. Dr. Stout lists in detail what to look for in terms of sociopathic behaviour, and I think readers will recognize at least one type that each of them knows personally. Not all sociopaths are homicidal maniacs who leave bodies under the bedroom floorboards. But their behaviour can be nearly that destructive, and they come disguised, which confuses people. They come disguised as clinging girlfriends, they come disguised as suicidal boyfriends, they come disguised, sometimes, as doctors or bosses or Mom or Dad. CoCo, I’m particularly asking YOU to read this book. This guy has very nearly got you in the position which you KNOW you don’t want: and he has you HELPING him to move in!! Don’t do. Move his stuff out. Put it in the hallway. For heaven’s sake, do NOT be pushed into keeping his stuff for him, because he will surely follow it into your house. Do you think the effort involved in uprooting him will be good for your son?? So he can have a front-row seat to the arguing, crying, shouting? That it will be good for him to see his Mommy anxious and fighting? Protect him and protect yourself. Please.
@Lisa
I agree with the advice Sars and everyone else is giving to Coco, but I had to respond to what you said about divorce decrees containing provisions that don’t allow parties to live together. As with most legal matters, it all depends on the jurisdiction the parties live in. I’m sure Linda can provide a better answer, but as a paralegal in Pennsylvania with some family law experience, I can tell you that our divorce decrees do not contain such provisions. There are lots of single parents cohabitating without the “benefits” of marriage and that isn’t considered a reason to change custody.
CoCo, please, for the love of your child and all that is holy, CHANGE YOUR LOCKS NOW. I mean walk away from the computer, pour a shot of liquid courage if you have to, and do it now.
Please understand that as soon as your apartment becomes “his” apartment, you’ll be continually choosing between him and your child. This guy has already successfully forced you to give in on something you heartily did not want for yourself… why do you think this same man will be self-sacrificing the next time your son is sick and needs his mommy? Or ISN’T sick and has a school play when “man” wants something that conflicts? Do you really think that anyone who has consistenly theatened suicide to get his way, is going to encourage you to spend time with that “damn kid” when it means that he has to stand in line? And if he really is clinical, do you want to leave your son overnight with someone that unstable if you do have to be gone for the evening? You’re already wishing he was more “psychologically indepedent” and believe me, he is not going to get *more* independent once he’s succeeded in making everything in his life dependent on you.
I know he’s always been wonderful with the boy, and maybe he’s never used the terminology cited above. Doesn’t matter. Based on what you told us, when the chips are down and it’s his house, you will have to choose between them, and your son is too little to win a fight against this man for his place with you. You know where the pressure lies. Please don’t let this happen to your boy or yourself.
(For the record, dealing with suicide threats is a tough call. I can’t tell you whether your friend is a manipulative douche or he’s clinical and on the edge. Deep inside though, you know. If he’s really clinical? That’s too big for you to fix alone, and driving him to an inpatient clinic is the best thing you can do. If he’s not clinical, you can, and should, fix this problem for yourself right now. Please go change the locks!)
Oh CoCo, I hope you don’t let him finish moving in. I cannot agree with K more re: following your instincts. Every time I had ignored mine with respect to relationships with unstable men, I have regretted it SO MUCH. I have looked back to many times from the middle of an absolute mess and thought “oh, see…there was a point when I could I have stopped this. I knew it then and I didn’t listen. Crap, crap, crap.” You are at that point right now. Please, please listen to yourself and do something hard now to stave off having to do something much harder later.
Among my unstable all-stars was an extremely manipulative, depressive, alcoholic who would come unglued every time he had to stay at his place. When I had to start BARGAINING with him to get one night a week to myself, a part of my brain put her hand on her hip and said “girl, you are a damn fool.” I didn’t listen. It went along for several more super crappy months, and I finally decided it needed to end. I took all of his stuff in a giant duffel bag to his place (and called it a loss on the bag), changed the locks and that was that. It sucked. He didn’t react well. I had to move out for several weeks and hide at a friend’s house…but I could finally see just what a bullet I was dodging.
I don’t know that you need to break up with him entirely – I did, but every situation is different. But…you can’t let him move in with you. Listen to yourself – you don’t want this. You say you don’t want it. Sometimes we have to do things for our partners that we don’t want to do…but it should generally be more along the lines of “attend sister-in-law’s lame theme-party and act like you’re having fun” and not cohabitate against your wishes.
You can do what you know is right. Hang in there, and good luck. If I could, I’d help move his stuff back out myself.
Kinda –
I am an attorney who used to work for a state court judge. I can’t exactly tell from your letter, but it sounds like you are dealing with a conciliation court matter (the amount of money at issue) which implies you would be representing yourself. As a law clerk, I used to get asked all kinds of questions by the general pubic asking for guidance.
He can’t/shouldn’t give you legal advice without being your attorney, but instead of asking him for a referral, I think it would be perfectly appropriate to ask him whether he could help you decide if you can handle representing yourself.
That is not a legal assessment. He could tell you where you can pick up forms or where to find phone numbers. Too many people think they have to have an attorney to do stuff. Also, don’t forget that courthouses usually have self help centers where you can get a lot of information for free.
I know this doesn’t answer the question you asked, exactly. I think talking to him like an equal and asking him technical questions is perfectly appropriate. Just stay away from asking about the legal merits of your case, which would put him in an awkward position.
Oh, Coco, I am so sad for your son right now. Please post back and let us know how all this sorts out because the thought of a helpless 5-year-old being caught up in all this mess is horrible to contemplate.
If you can’t stand up to this guy for your sake do it for your son’s. You don’t want to live with him, don’t live with him. You know he’s not psychologically healthy, why put your son in a position where he has to cope with that?
If you can’t face solving the problem all at once, take baby steps. Do something to buy some time before moving the last of his stuff in. Then call a crisis line and get some help dealing with his pre-suicidal behaviors. Then start moving his stuff out, bit by bit.
Some years ago I had to move out on a guy I had been living with for 2.5 years. If I had thought more than a week or so ahead at any time during the process I probably would have been too overwhelmed to ever have gotten starteds, so I took small steps. I picked up boxes. Each day I packed one until eventually everything I had was packed. I looked for apartments one day at a time until I found one. Eventually I moved out. It went slowly, but i kept forward momentum. Better to work on a plan that will fix your problem eventually than not work on it at all.
OK, I’ve finally ordered Gift of Fear. And I’ll be reading it and then my 12 YO daughter will be reading it.
CoCo-
I’m sure you want to make this work for the next baby, but he hasn’t proven any ability to manage his own shit much less be a Dad. Just because your friend the priest thinks it could work for some people doesn’t make this situation work. Maybe most of his stuff stays at your place for a while, but help him find an apartment that he can afford without your money and get him out.
He needs to sort out how to be a human being on his own. That includes finding therapy that works for him, which may take a few tries, and staying at it for a long time. Depression makes him too self-focused to remotely care about anybody but him, and he hates himself. You *cannot* leave a child alone with him now. He’s gotta be in treatment and make significant progress before he will ever be a Dad, a Husband, or a decent human being.
Letting him live in your house and get you pregnant without the benefit of marriage doesn’t sound like what you want. He’s already abusing your trust, emotionally abusing you, and emotionally abusing your son by living with his crazy. Your Mom may be paranoid but she’s right about this guy.
You could even lose custody of your 5-year-old for endangerment if he stays.
Thanks, La BellaDonna – just ordered it online, can’t wait to read it!
Agree with all others advising Coco to Get Him The Heck Out. Discontinue the move-in at once, and have friends around when you tell him. This guy doesn’t feel safe.