The Vine: January 14, 2009
Hi Sars,
Long-time reader, first-time writer.I could really use a relatively unbiased perspective on this one.
I think my husband drinks too much. I’m not an expert on these things, but I think it’s bordering on a problem, if it isn’t one already.However, given that he’s a well-employed professional, and he’s not drinking during the workday, and he’s a gregarious drunk, so not causing social problems, and he’s usually drinking at home, so not causing legal problems, it’s hard for me to figure out how torqued about it I’m allowed to get.
Some parameters: he drinks every day.Every single day.Somewhere between 4 and 8 beers is typical.It’s almost always beer, but sometimes it’s wine or scotch (he and his friend are connoisseurs).Every occasion is an occasion to drink.”Boy I’m hot after mowing the lawn, would love a cold beer to cool off.””It’s such a nice day, we should go have Mexican food and a pitcher of beer at that outdoor place.””It’s so cold out, we should have hot toddies to warm up.”
If we travel and stay in a hotel room, he runs out to a corner market and buys a six-pack, which he ices down in the bathroom sink.If we go hiking, he carries some scotch in a flask to have in the evening, around the campfire. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
We’ve been together nearly a decade, starting when we were in our early-to-mid-20s.He drank a lot socially back then, but our whole social circle did, so it didn’t stand out.Now that we’re all a little older and have more established careers, mortgages, kids, etc., most of us have outgrown it, so it has started to stand out.In fact, my husband’s best friend was the biggest drinker, but he had to cut down several years ago after his doctor told him he needed to for his liver, so now everyone is pretty tame.If we meet for dinner we’ll split a bottle or two of wine among four people, but that’s about it, and that happens maybe once a week.
I’m not sure how others perceive my husband’s drinking.No one’s said anything directly about it, but at least two wives of his guy friends have said to me after a night they’ve gone out together, “I don’t think they should be allowed to go out together without a chaperone.My husband came home SO DRUNK.”It was said jokingly both times, but there may have been some subtext.
We have a toddler at home.Before I was pregnant, I probably drank with him/our friends 3-4 times per week. When I was pregnant and breastfeeding, I didn’t drink at all, of course.When we found out I was pregnant, he volunteered to quit drinking “in solidarity” with me.He didn’t stick to that for very long — maybe a month or two — but he did drink a lot less then.I think part of the reason he cut back so much then is because he didn’t like seeing all the beer bottles in the recycling can, knowing he had no plausible deniability that maybe some of them were mine.
Since we had the baby, I never really started drinking all that much again.I’m just busy, at a different place in my life, you know?I do end up drinking more than I’d like to, though, since it’s just around and he’s always offering.I probably have 1-2 drinks with him on 3 nights/week.I would like to cut that out, too, more because of the calories than anything else (still trying to get back to pre-baby weight).
I have actually brought up the drinking with my husband on a few occasions.We’ve got a good relationship, and we’re good friends.I was tactful about it — I told him I didn’t know whether it was a problem or not, but that it worried me — I worry about his health, and it’s just not really a lifestyle I want.I don’t want our kid growing up thinking it’s normal to drink a six-pack every day.I also think it’s weird/worrisome that I have NEVER seen him have one drink, or even two.It’s always 3-4 minimum.And I am just bored with him being buzzed and parked in front of the TV every night.
The first time we talked about it, he was worried.He got a physical, and reported that his liver function came back “normal.”I saw the lab test results on our kitchen counter — everything tested normal, except liver function, which was just on the high edge of normal.There was a special note for that one saying, “Possible concern — results may have been skewed if patient consumed multiple drinks in the previous 24 hours.”So, maybe technically normal.
The second time we talked about it, he said he doesn’t think it’s a problem, although he does think that maybe he requires more “sedation” than he should right now, but that’s only because we’ve had so much stress lately.He might be right that we have an abnormal amount of stress: he works full-time, with some consulting work on the side.I work full-time and go to grad school part-time.We pay a full-time nanny to keep this all rolling, and it’s led to ongoing money stress, etc.
Maybe he’s right.Maybe it’s just a phase.Maybe I’ll finish grad school and our kid will start school and we’ll let the nanny go and he’ll be able to quit the consulting work and everything will chill and he’ll…what?Stop drinking?Take up training for a marathon?
I’m really starting to worry, because after that last conversation he suggested, all on his own, that maybe he shouldn’t drink during the week, and only keep it to weekends.He said he wanted to do that to get in shape anyway.He did that for less than one week.Thursday that week he had “an extraordinarily hard day at work” and had to have a couple of beers.The following week he made excuses for a few days, and then just dropped all pretense of keeping up with it.He did keep up with the nightly exercise, and he’s in great shape again.
So, that’s twice that he’s made his own plan to cut back on drinking and then failed to follow it.I’ve been hesitant to make too big of an issue about it, though, because as a lifelong dieter, I mean, tell me about making self-improvement plans and then not sticking to them.
So, what’s your take?Should I push this or get over it?If I really really ask myself what my issue is with it, it’s the lifestyle.His health is a concern, but that’s something he needs to own for himself, much like controlling his intake of fatty foods and not smoking, you know?I own my health for myself, as well.On the lifestyle, it’s the evenings with him buzzed in front of the TV.It’s boring.Of course, we have a toddler sleeping upstairs and I’m often reading or doing homework at the same time, so it’s not like I’m waiting around for him to take me out or something.
I do hate the way he crashes into bed, exhausted. It’s affecting our sex life: he’s too tired/drunk to do it at night (and I’m not all that turned on by the beer breath anyway), and in the morning when he’s ready to go, usually I’m already spun up about what I have to do that day and our kid’s yelling “can I get up now?” from his bedroom down the hall and I’m not in the mood.
On the other hand, I keep thinking about Fun Bobby from Friends.Do you remember that?Remember how everyone noticed Fun Bobby was drinking too much and they had a little self-righteous intervention and then Bobby quit and he was a bore?Sigh.
Sincerely,
Looking for happy medium between Lifetime Movie Faux-Righteousness and Indie Slacker Movie Depressing Detachment
Dear Medium,
Yes, I would say your husband has a problem.He’s functional, but he needs to drink every night, and he always has an excuse for why he’s not going to quit.This is addict behavior.
But as to whether you push it…as you said, he has to own his behavior.That said, you have every right to ask for changes in the behavior you don’t like — namely that his use of alcohol is affecting the way the two of you interact socially, and the way you interact sexually.Because you’ve talked about the issue before, I don’t think you necessarily need to list all the signs he shows of having a substance-abuse problem; you just have to tell him what you told me, using “I” statements.”I wish you were more engaged in the evenings; you aren’t, and I feel that it’s because you’re drinking.I would like to have sex at night; I feel like we can’t, because I don’t like the way your breath smells and also you’re not into it/able to get it up/whatever.”
This may seem like splitting hairs, and it is, really, but I think you should deal with the issues that are top of mind right now, and then spend a little more time thinking long-term about the problem and how you want to handle it.Do you want to police this?Do you want to give him an ultimatum?Yeah, you could just tell him you would “prefer” it if he cut down on the drinking, but you’ve seen that that’s not likely, so what’s your next move — demand that he quit?Cap his intake, and then have to count bottles or suss out whether he’s drinking off-campus?If you want him to quit or cut down, and he doesn’t want to do it, it’s going to become your job.
I can’t tell you what to do, and I don’t think it’s at the point where you have to tell him to get the drinking in hand or you’ll move out — but you need to think about whether it’s going to get to that point, and/or when, and you need to speak honestly to him, if not now then sometime soon, about what your answer is to that question. In other words, you can get as torqued about it as you want, but the torqued…ness in and of itself may not be enough to change things.
Because he already knows.He knows this bothers you.He knows it’s an issue.He’s just not going to deal with it until he has to, probably, but you can’t change him, or force him; you can only decide how much you want to deal with, and keep him in the loop on that decision, and then he makes his decisions and you go from there.You just may not want to bite off that whole chunk right now, especially when the down sides may seem relatively minor compared to the fact that, you know, you love him, you have a child, and so on.
Ask him for what you need.Think about what else you need.Give him a chance to do what he needs to do, and see where you are.
Sars!Help!
About six years ago, I got this awesome pair of shoes from Mudd. They’re clunky, and black, and they fit perfectly.I still wear them all the time, six years later, but they’re getting old and worn out and honestly, they smell.They smell bad.
I have a style name, Mateo, but can’t find anywhere online selling them.Should I be tracking down the president of Mudd and demanding he make more?Any suggestions from the readers for buying a new, size 10 pair of these shoes?And if not…what’s the best way to get rid of a nasty smell coming from shoes?
Thanks,
Mud Smells Better
Dear Mud,
Start by opening a search on eBay: “mudd mateo 10” or something like that.Six years down the line, the odds aren’t great, but you never know.
That could take a while, though, so in the meantime, you need to find another solution…which doesn’t include trying to de-stank the current pair.They’re six years old; you’re done here.If you have no other shoes to wear, put that pair in the freezer overnight, change out the insoles for scented ones from Dr. Scholl’s, and you can muddle (…heh) through for a week until you get new shoes, but after a senatorial term of constant wear, it’s time to let go.
Set aside an hour and go to the online shoe stores and browse.Zappos’ selection isn’t for everyone, but I find it the easiest to search on.Look for black shoes in a size 10, and toggle the other search parameters until you find something you like.Zappos gives you a lot of good photos of the shoes so that you can see if it’s what you really want — and if it gets to your house and it isn’t what you want, you can send the shoes back for free.Your best bet in this case is to see what other styles Mudd is carrying these days, and investigate the most similar one to your current pair.
But see my previous comments in this space re: writing a snail-mail letter to the company.They might send you a gift certificate.
Hi Sars!
I am living in Asia at the moment, a culture which is totally opposite to where I’m from (Canada). Adjusting to the new norms here has been okay except one part. Here, we are expected to respect “older” people even though the difference is only one year.
My personality can be somewhat prickly when provoked…I can’t help it. I am generally a very nice person, truth! So when my older cousin disrespects me or talks to me condescendingly, I can’t tell her off the way I would normally or speak my mind. It is considered rude if you talk back or correct an elder. I know, I’ll be moving back home to the land of the free next year so I won’t have to put up with this “When in Rome” crap forever.
The other week my cousin and I (who live in the same neighborhood) made plans to see my aunt — her mother — who lives about two hours from where we live and last minute my cousin told me not to go. I was angry, not at what she said but how she said it. I was defiant and said I was going anyway, and she said fine but I had to come back home by bus.
I thought this was rude. I didn’t understand why we couldn’t come back together. We both had to work the same day at the same time. She could’ve just said nicely, “I want some alone time in the car so take a taxi to the terminal and take the two-hour bus ride home. Sorry.” I got none of it. I was thinking, “What a bizzatch.”
Okay, fine. So I’ve been ignoring her calls because I just cannot take her right now. I know, how mature of me.
Sars, I just don’t know what approach to take. I can’t point out her flaws to her face because it’s just not the right thing to do. Our personalities don’t mesh but she’s family and while living here I have to be civil and pleasant. Any advice would be appreciated.
Danke,
Bizzatch’s li’l cousin
Dear Cousin,
You don’t have to “point out her flaws”; you can tell her that you felt hurt by her tone of voice, and put out by having to take the bus.Just explain it very calmly, and add that this is why you haven’t returned her phone calls — you don’t come from a culture where it works this way, so she’ll have to forgive you for having some trouble adjusting.
Then, move on.This is the culture; it’s not personal, really.I agree that it’s ridiculousto consider a cousin one year older than you an “elder,” but if that’s how they roll, well, you just have to remind yourself that while it’s not your choice, it’s not forever, either, and you’ll only have to put up with it for a few months before you return to the social customs you’re used to at home.
Your cousin should be more considerate, but she probably won’t be; you can point out to her that you’d like a little more courtesy shown you, but that likely isn’t going to happen, and once you stop anticipating it, you may find it easier to take when it isn’t in evidence.Lower your expectations, in other words.
Tags: boys (and girls) health and beauty retail the fam
Mud might also want to check out http://www.modista.com in searching for new shoes. It can be a little overwhelming at first, but you click on the shoe you like and it shows you more like that, so you can keep clicking until you find ones that most meet your criteria. It will show you where you can order the shoes online as well, but note that if you have price concerns, you might want to set a maximum price so you don’t end up falling in love with shoes way out of your price range.
I’m a recovering alcoholic with 5 years of sobriety. The first lady would benefit greatly from Al-Anon. It will teach her how to detach with love and not own any of his addiction.
Oh, dear. Those shoes…they’re not coming back. Unless they were a flagship style for the brand (e.g. the Calvin Klein Dolly, the Nine West Barbe, the Rocket Dog String Bean), those were that season’s shoe, and it will only be by the grace of God that you find them again. Check eBay; I once found a reasonable facsimile of an old pair of shoes. But after that, your best bet is to move on–even a sale retailer like 6pm.com won’t have six-year-old styles. Sometimes department stores have older styles than the retailers like zappos.com, endless.com, and piperlime.com, and sometimes places like shoemall.com and shoebuy.com will have older stuff too. So I’d give it a google and see what comes up, but be prepared to find a new pair to love.
Btw: just did a quick google search for “mudd mateo” and this page was the first result. Egad. I don’t think your odds here are good. I’d recommend zappos, endless, and piperlime for your initial search (6pm’s prices are good but its search function is basically nonfunctional, ironically).
As an adult child of an alcoholic, I have to say that it is important to your child that you take care of this now. While the toddler is a toddler.
My father is the same type of alcoholic you described, happy, fun and drank beer all the time. Bought it in hotel rooms, too! And we never really talked about it because it wasn’t a problem. He drank at night and never missed a day of work.
But, without getting into too many details of what it was like for me growing up, it can seriously affect your life and relationships.
My dad would quit drinking occasionally and it was usually after a doctor told him he was in a bad place health wise.
I hope this helps! It’ll definitely save on therapy in the future!
In regards to the drinking thing Medium, you might want to point out that it’s not a good example for the child, and that when a parent drinks a lot the child is more likely to become an alcoholic. Now that he’s a parent, he now is responsible for what this child will be seeing/growing up with. Tough, but that’s what happens when you have kids (I’ve had to give up my junk food addiction myself as I don’t want to pass that down to my daughter). Also you might want to point out that if he stops drinking you’d save a lot of money which you could use for a vacation or something else that might be a healthier stress reliever.
May I recommend Al-Anon to Medium? They might help her out with practical strategies for dealing with the drinker in the house.
Medium, this is SO my childhood. Everything – two working parents, one finishing a master’s degree, the beer every evening after work, the “we all drank in college, but we’re supposed to be grownups now, ” the whole thing.
As someone who grew up in this situation, I’d say the most important thing is not to let it gradually become something else. Life is stress – there’ll be another baby or a sick parent or emergency expenses, and 4-6 beers won’t cut it any longer. That’s how addiction escalates, and if it becomes a constant tension between you or a regular fight, that’s something your kid will pick up too.
Speaking as someone whose situation became more extreme, requiring lots of therapy and hard work, think about Al-Anon. You don’t have to go to meetings regularly or anything, but if you’re wanting some larger perspective on this, doing the thinking that Sars suggests you should, this might help. You’ll find people who are actively in relationships with alcoholics, and you’ll get a sense of what that road looks like, at least for someone else, a little further down the line. It is something people do, but you can’t kid yourself about it and you owe it to yourself and your family to be prepared.
Mud: Googling linked to a photo of your beloved Mateo’s, though not a place you can order them. If this is the style you’ve been wearing FOR SIX YEARS, girlfriend, maybe it’s time to try something new. Contact the company. Perhaps they have another style that that created from the footprint of the Mateo. The fit might work for you and we certainly be an updated style. If you want to save your current pair, I’ve heard that spritzing cheap vodka in your shoes will kill bacteria. But I think you should bite the fashion bullet, dispense of the smelly shoes and find an new shoe love. Good luck!
@Happy medium — I have to agree that your husband has a problem. I also think he knows it. (Addicts tend to know they have a problem way before they admit it). I am in a ten year long relationship that has dealt with a similar type of drinking issue. I knew when we started dating that she was an alcoholic and made some decisions at the outset about how to deal with it. The most important issue for me was deciding what I would and wouldn’t do or put up with. The difference was that she acknowledged that she was an alcoholic. She was functional, drank 6 to 8 beers a night, never while at work, never drove after she started drinking.
One of the rules I made was no hard liquor in the house (I couldn’t control her actions but did have a say in what went on in our house). This was because when she drank hard liquor her behaviour changed enough that we’d fight every time. Amazingly, she kept that bargain. Three years ago she went to treatment and has been sober ever since. Our relationship is so much better I’m amazed I lived with it as long as I did.
I was a heavy drinker when we first started dating and ultimately drank less and less and now I don’t drink at all and I like it. I agree with everything that Sars said above, but would like to add something.
I think before you make any type of decision or ask for anything, spend some more time thinking about him as an addict. Accepting that people who drink everyday are addicted to drinking can be really hard. It might influence what you need or want, too. Like, you can tell him you aren’t going to buy his beer or put out his recycling. That’s the sort of bright line that isn’t confrontational. You might not want to ask him to lower his intake of alcohol because that kind of bargaining breeds hyper vigilance which could make you miserable and it’s pretty much doomed to failure with someone who has to drink every day.
Make conscious, rational decisions about how you want to react. Addicts are not rational about their addiction and are able to twist conversations pretty readily. Being hyper prepared emotionally before a conversation is really helpful.
One of the most helpful things I did was find a beginner’s Al-Anon meeting. At the very least, it gave me one hour a week to think about what was good for me and to find some peace.
Medium,
In describing your husband, you described a very good friend of mine. 40 years old, his drinking habits were similar to what you’ve written. Nobody really said anything to him, his doctor suggested that he cut back, (although I don’t know how honest he was with his doctor.)
Last January, his wife found him in bed, dead of acute pancreatitis. His wife told me the doctors said it was the alcohol.
Please contact Al-Anon.
Medium : 4-8 beers, every night? He’s an alcoholic. Like Hollie and musebootsie, my father was the same. He would drink a six-pack every day and I hated him for it. He would stop by the grocery store to get beer when we only had $20 to eat for the week. That lasted until my mom put her foot down, and he stopped… when I was 18 and ready to move out.
I remember when I was about six and I saw my mom with a beer in her hand at a party. I went to her and asked her if that was the only one she was going to drink. Even at that age, I knew that my dad drank too much and I hated it. I didn’t want my mom to do the same
So yeah, it affects you and it’s going to affect your child, you have every right to ask him to stop. Have him consult a doctor about this. That doctor can prescribed medication to help him stop if just cutting it won’t do.
Kaitlin, you ruined me with that Modista website. My bank account is cringing.
Medium: Hollie’s and Vanessa’s comments are very perceptive and wise. You have a lot of choices to make about this relationship – don’t spend another second wondering whether it’s fair to say your husband has a drinking problem. I wish I’d been smart enough to know that several years ago. I was really hung up on the notion that because my partner was high functioning and drank only beer, he couldn’t have a “real†problem. In truth the drinking is self-destructive behavior and everyone in the household suffers no matter that the damage unfolds very slowly. Please take care of yourself, protect your child, and do try an Al-Anon meeting.
Letter # 1 – I am 50 years old. Reading your letter brought back memories of my childhood. Your husband sounds exactly like my father. He never missed a day of work, but he drank 8 beers a night. The rest of his booze buddies quit drinking for their health, but he had to have his beer no matter what. He was never physically abusive, thank God, but he was always too drunk to do anything except zone out on the couch. The weekly trip to the grocery store was embarrassing because we always had a ton of empties and the clerk would say, “You must have had some party…” but he was the only drinker in the house.
Your kid will eventually notice that Dad’s life revolves around drinking (because honestly, it sounds like it does). There will be car rides where your kid’s heart will be in his throat because he will be so scared of the way Dad’s weaving on the highway. He will sense your mood, too, and he will resent Dad for it, and resent all the games, concerts, etc., that Dad will miss. Drinking will always come first.
What finally changed my father is that he became a grandfather. He quit drinking when MY KIDS were 6 & 8 because he “wanted to see them grow up.” I’m glad he did, but I will never get my own childhood back, you know? (And then my stepmonster has the nerve to say “he was more fun when he drank a little!” Lady, he did not drink a LITTLE. That was the problem.)
Please do not let this happen to your child. Save him years of therapy. Tell your husband this is a problem, and he needs to get help.
Mudd: I feel your pain. I have a pair of Bass boots that I love. My Aunt bought them for me for my 16th birthday. I’m now 27. They only come out for special occasions, when the weather is good! What you need to do is kill the bacteria that are living in the shoes. This is what is causing the smell and it comes from when your feet sweat. Freezing can work, I’ve never heard of the alcohol but I would think it would work. Also to freshen on a daily basis, you can use baking soda or buy a can of spray antiperspirant deodorant, just be careful since they can cause discoloration. Other things I’ve heard, but haven’t tried yet is filling a sock with odor absorbing kitty litter and letting them sit overnight, and leaving them out in the sun to kill the bacteria.
@mudd — I had a saved search on eBay for my favorite shirt I thought I’d never see again, and wouldn’t you know it the exact shirt in my exact size popped up and it now lives in my closet! Might as well do the search with the daily alert, it’s free and you never know what will come of it.
Dear Happy Medium:
Reading your letter was like a review of my life 15 years ago. I am going to tell you what I would have told that girl in the mirror if she would have listened. YOU HAVE A BIG PROBLEM!!!! That guy who is drinking too much, the guy you live with now….He is killing that wonderful man you married. Sure, it is happening slowly, but it is happening. RUN, don’t walk to the nearest Al-Anon meeting, sit and LISTEN, really, really listen. 10, 5 or even 3 years from now, that wonderful man you married will be gone and he won’t be back. You cannot control his drinking, hell, HE can’t even control his drinking, but you can control what your and your children’s life will be. Don’t wait for him to break another promise and don’t ask him again to choose between you and the booze, because, guess what? He already did and he didn’t choose you. As much as you love him, you have to save your children. Deep inside you already know what you have to do.
Mud, Robin is right. This was the site she was talking about: http://bsb-shoes.com/mudd-shoes.html, and I’m assuming that’s the shoe you mean, but… Really. You have to move on. When I look at them I see 90210, and not the new edition.
I would suggest going to Al-Anon to get support from those who have been there. I would not suggest attempting to cajole, persuade, or otherwise convince him to stop drinking. The only ones who can really help someone with a drinking problem are other alcoholics, and partners of alcoholics need to take care of themselves first and foremost. You don’t have to go through this alone. If and when your husband decides that he would like to stop drinking, he won’t have to go through his experience alone, either. But right now, look after yourself and take advantage of the wisdom and care of those who have been there, lived it, and come through the other side.
@Middle: I’m not an addiction expert, but it seems to me that the fact that he keeps trying to stop and then doesn’t stop goes a long way toward demonstrating a problem.
At the very least, you have (1) an affected sex life; (2) constant worry; (3) the definite spectre of health complications; (4) enough drinking that basically every day, you can’t rely on him to be able to drive anyone to the hospital or otherwise respond to an emergency; and (5) the sense that it disengages him from you, as you say about his being buzzed in front of the TV instead of being good company.
Just going on your description, he’s *not* functional, not really. He’s not sexually functional, he’s not personally functional, he’s not parentally functional — not fully, not reliably. Among other things, if you have financial worries as you say you do, that’s a pretty significant expense. I think the Al-Anon recommendation is a good one. I think you do need some help figuring out what to do, because I don’t think this will spontaneously resolve itself.
Dear Medium,
At the risk of being the lone voice of dissent, your husband may be an addict, but there are other possibilities to be considered. What seems clear is that he is in some sort of distress (be it related to addiction, depression, or anxiety) and that he cannot manage this distress on his own. I’d suggest approaching him with your concern and a request that the two of you talk to a professional about his drinking and its effect on your family. (By involving you in the request you may be able to circumvent some defensiveness and ensure that the extent of the drinking is fully disclosed.) A therapist will be able to help both of you plan the next steps to take whether they involve substance abuse treatment, individual psychotherapy, medication, couples counseling, or some combination of all of these.
Mud – I used to work at Famous Footwear and actually remember the Mateo vaguely (why yes, I did spend too much of my life working there memorizing shoe names, thank you). I know they wouldn’t have it anymore, but Famous does stock MANY Mudd shoes, as well as Skechers that often look just like them. If you don’t have a store near you, I’d try their website… Otherwise, they also have outlet stores called Factory Brand Shoes that might be your best bet for a 6 year old style or something similar… Just a thought. Good luck!
My husband drinks excessively, too, but he also eats excessively, and discussed it and decided between us that it’s more of a binge eating disorder than alcoholism. He’s working with his doctor to get it under control, and right now he’s convinced that medical intervention will fix it and he doesn’t need psychological intervention. Since he’s owning it, I’m letting him work it out in his own way, for now. The point is, there could be something else going on that’s causing your husband to self-medicate, and he might have to work with his doctor to figure out what that is and treat it before he can even begin to get his drinking under control. Maybe you could insist on accompanying him to his next doctor’s appointment, so you can suggest that possibility to Doc yourself instead of relying on him to do it? I know it might feel like you’re treating him like a child, but it might go down better if you explain your concern beforehand, with love, and point out that he can’t really tell the doctor how it looks from your point of view, and that the doc needs all the info to be able to treat him properly. Good luck.
Medium, he’s an alcoholic. He’s not a terrible person, and you didn’t do anything. That’s just what he is.
He may stay at this level for years, cutting back sometimes, adding one sometimes, or he may suddenly escalate, but he’s an alcoholic.
In addition to joining the chorus of voices strongly recommending Al-Anon, I highly, highly, HIGHLY recommend the book “Drinking” by the late Caroline Knapp. It describes, in detail, her life as a high functioning alcoholic–the way it was always around in her childhood, the bags and bags of reycyling, the hundreds of PERFECTLY GOOD AND SOUND REASONS why she just couldn’t cut down right now. It’s very beautifully written and thoughtful, and a lot of it is what you’ve described of your husband to a T. If you can, have him read it too.
Cousin: I also lived in Asia (central though, not East) and I had to perfect the art of passive aggressive discussion to save face and show respect. I found that the trick is to smile really big, hunch your shoulders a bit and passive aggressively nag them until they give in. (“Oh, Cousin, it will be such a shame to travel without you, you are so great, even though we have the same work schedule, it would mean so much to me.”) I’ve done with with personal relations and in business and it usually gets me what I need.
I also found guilt goes farther in Asia than it does in N. America. The guilt trip worked wonders, for some reason people there really react to it.
@Medium: I have to kind of piggyback off of Benji on this one – it doesn’t really matter what hairs you want to split about whether or not he is officially an addict; he’s self-medicating in a way that is affecting his life and the people around him. He needs therapy to develop some coping skills – yes, your lives are stressful… and plenty of other people have been in the same situation and figured it out.
I may be reading a bit too much into it, but you guys might want to see about couples counseling too – it doesn’t seem like you’re connecting, and that’s important for any relationship, especially one with a child.
I don’t know about finding the specific style of shoes you’re looking for after so many years, but I have to recommend Zappos. I bought shoes on there this summer and it was a great experience. I ordered them at 8 p.m. on a Tuesday night (they had free shipping) and got an e-mail telling me they were going to upgrade me to expedited shipping for no reason that I could discern. When I got home from work the following day, they were already there. And, as Sars said, you can return them for free if you don’t like them. It’s so easy.
PLEASE. I speak from similar experience. Attend an Al-Anon meeting or forty. It’s where you can learn to put your energy and attention back on yourself – the person who is living your life, so you may find happiness, whether the drinker in your life is drinking or not.
I have to agree with kellyu, now that I’ve seen the shoes. They’re pretty dated. I’m all for comfort, and sticking with what works for you/not being a trend whore, but if they’re out of style AND they smell, they’ve really gots to go.
Medium,
I thought that I’d add my voice to the masses. I had an average childhood because my dad controlled his intake while my brother and I were in the house but things went downhill in my 20’s. I had no idea that he was an alcoholic until I was 26 when I got a call that he was arrested for drunk driving while in my town on business. I had to pick him up from jail that night.
What I’m trying to say is that this will come to a head some time and it will impact you and your child so why not start facing it now? After 2 treatments, one in-patient and one out-patient, my dad is now a recovering alcoholic who is working the program and so much happier than any other time in his life (his words).
And I have to add that some of the coolest people I meet are recovering alcoholics because they have things figured out in ways that other people don’t.
I’m the same Catherine, recovering alcoholic, from the second comment, but after reading the other comments, I wanted to add that it’s really unhelpful and ultimately beside the point for anyone besides Medium’s husband himself to diagnose him as an alcoholic. The thing Medium will learn in Al-Anon is that it’s not about him. It’s about her, and the way his drinking affects her. Getting a bunch of people on the internet to say that her husband is an alcoholic so she can feel justified in confronting him or whatever, when she’s already done so and he’s proven himself unwilling to change his behavior, is moot. As someone said above, there is no way to cajole, convince, threaten, manipulate, or otherwise force someone else to change their drinking behavior. He will either stop or he won’t, and his wife’s reaction (and certainly some random strangers on the internet) will ultimately be unlikely to have anything to do with it. It is the harsh truth about us alcoholics that we are supremely self-centered, stubborn, and make decisions in active addiction based almost 100% on our own pain.
Medium, I’ve been in therapy dealing with my mother’s drinking for a year now, and I thought I’d just throw this in there if it helps – Catherine is right; you can’t make him stop unless and until he wants to, but it’s in your power to decide what you can and cannot deal with. Be clear about that for yourself and be clear about that with him, and if he’s engaging in behavior that you can’t deal with, remove yourself from it. Take care of yourself and protect your feelings and emotions – you really need to do that for yourself because it’s so easy to forget about that when all your energy is focused on trying to fix someone else. I hope it all works out for you.
Medium, I feel for you. My dad was a functional alcoholic when I was growing up, generally a six pack of beer every night. He no longer drinks, as he had a DUI and a major health problem (practically simultaneously) several years ago that scared him straight. He gave up or cut down on drinking many, many times, only to return to his old habits, and his drinking was a major factor in why my parents got divorced. He did AA at one point, and it wasn’t helpful to him because the other people in his group were not functional, and their behaviors and experiences made him think he really wasn’t so bad. Functional alcoholics, I’ve heard many times, are the most difficult to treat, and it makes sense.
I agree with those who suggested you need to seek help for yourself. Ultimatums and threats won’t work with him; he has to figure this out on his own.
Catherine, I get what you’re saying about comments not changing Medium’s husband, but I think it may be useful to *her* to hear other people’s view of the situation. As the people urging her toward Al-Anon are saying, this isn’t all about him.
@Catherine: Amen, amen, AMEN! As many have suggested, Medium, please consider Al-Anon. It’s not just how your husband’s drinking, excessive or not, is affecting him, it’s how it affects you. I had a similar situation with my husband (no details, but trust me when I say I empathize here) and I told him how it was for ME: “*I* can’t deal with this issue, for these reasons. *I* can’t tell you what to do, because it is your life and ultimately your decision; however, *I* am telling you, if XYZ doesn’t change, *I* am going to have to make a change.” He tried the old “don’t give me an ultimatum” and I told him, “I’m not giving you an ultimatum. You have a choice. I am simply telling you what *I* am going to do after you have made that choice, whichever way it goes.”
Medium, no one here, least of all me, is telling you what to do. What we are strongly suggesting is that you find some people who have dealt with this issue, who have been through this issue, and can help YOU deal with this issue, for yourself. Al-Anon is a good place to look for those people.
(If anyone cares – my situation worked out. I got lucky.)
Catherine, I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m the Vanessa of the absurdly long post above. In defense of the chorus of diagnosis, Medium seemed to be writing to see if other other people agreed with her suspicions. I think the chorus of voices will give her something to think about.
I also absolutely think that it would be really unhelpful to confront him or to go to couples counseling or force yourself on his next doctor’s visit. I reiterate that Medium has to start seeing the situation for what it is before she should make any decision. And the situation that her letter described involves living with someone who has to drink more than a six pack of beer every night. Which means he’s physically and psychically dependent, whatever label you want to put on it.
I’m used to dealing with self-centered, stubborn and full of pain, Catherine. We are able to joke about it now, not get angry. Avoid the label, Medium, at this point it isn’t helpful. Just let it sink in every day that he will be drunk by the time he goes to bed.
To Mudd: Cute shoes. They look just like my Dr. Martens Monk Strap, which are still available (I got mine last year), and would cost you about twice as much, but will last you at LEAST six years, if not more (I have a pair of Doc maryjanes nearing their second decade, and still in rotation…)
As for the stink, I have heard good things about the volcanic-rock shoe deodorizers, at least among possessors of smelly athletic footwear. I think they’re pretty easy to come by.
Medium, pleasepleaseplease go to Al-Anon. I know you have no time, with a toddler & graduate school, but do it anyway. There’s no way you can change anyone else, ever, but maybe you can find a way to live with it, or a way to live without it, that won’t rip you & the kid to shreds in the process. I wish you the best and hope that he decides he can change, and does the work to make that change.
Mud, the feet want what the feet want…it’s like love. I also suggest a saved search on eBay. I wore the same style of shoe for 9 years (NINE!) because I was lucky enough to find 5 pair after they were discontinued. (I haunted discount stores, too…) and I finally wore out the last pair about two months ago – at that point I was ready to move on, style-wise.
Has Cousin come to stay with you in America? Because payback is the REAL bizzatch. Heh. Hang in there. (Sars’ & Sara’s advice is great.)
Mud – If you’re really determined to hang on to those old shoes, it’s time for some baking soda. Get two boxes of baking soda and two pairs of old socks or stockings. Pour a box into one sock, tie or rubber-band it off, stick it inside another sock, then cram it in your shoe every night. Cheap vodka spritzed into the shoes will also help to kill the bacteria, but you don’t want to overdo it or you’ll walk around smelling like Boozy McDrinksalot, and the dye might be alcohol soluble.
Also, if the insoles are removable, take them out at night so they can air-dry. Replacing them every few months couldn’t hurt, either.
Sara – I loved your comments for Bizzatch! I live in Asia too and I find I have to play these little games to get stuff done. You summed it up perfectly!
I was told recently to change the wording of a report to “sound more positive” before it went to the boss. My immediate reply was “This isn’t positive. This is a wake up call. This issue is a real problem.” Their reply was “Oh yes, yes, but can’t you write it 60% positive and 40% negative?” So I gritted my teeth and did it – it’s just finding culturally appropriate ways of working, ways of greasing the wheels and being effective.
I actually think it can be quite fun if you make it. Try Sara’s suggestion – smile sweetly and guilt your cousin in her own game!
@ Bizzatch – here’s the thing, though – adults in the Western world can’t just always just “tell off” people who annoy them, either. Yeah, you’re dealing with an amplified situation with elder respect right now, but you’re also getting a taste of what it means to be a grown up and in control of yourself. You say you can’t help getting prickly when you are provoked. But…you can. You will never be able to control how other people treat you, but you can always control how you handle it. Your reaction to your cousin telling you not to come with her to see her mother was pretty childish (seriously? You announced that you were going with her when she had just disinvited you? Wow) and I get the sense that you feel like it was justified because your cousin acted like a bitch. There’s always going to be someone who acts like a bitch, always someone who is rude, or condescending, or handles things differently than you would prefer. That’s not license for you to act poorly.
I agree with Sars that lowering your expectations for your cousin is a good idea, but I’d add that you should raise your expectations for your own behavior. Reign it in a little next time – try *not* acting defiant. Be calm, be cool, be an adult. The fallout might surprise you.
Medium – I was/am in your situation. Went to Al-anon, hoping to find an alternative solution to either living with a functioning alcoholic, or leaving him. We have three little kids and no money so the latter alternative would mean financial ruin, losing the house, complete disruption of everybody’s lives. And my husband never misses work, is a good, involved father (other than being a bad role model) and I love him.
After some pretty bad times last year, he chose to cut back to only drinking on weekends (Fri-Sat-Sun) and on holidays. I know he’s still an addict and I hate how drunk he gets, how unavailable he is to me, etc., but so far, the alternative, leaving him, seems worse, especially for the kids.
At Al-Anon, it seemed like the people at the meetings I went to were in much worse situations. I went to about 20 meetings, different times and places, trying to find people who were dealing with similar situations. No luck – it was more like people whose boyfriend burned down their house or something. At the end of the day, even our couples counselor acknowledged that there aren’t any other solutions. You either live with it, or leave.
I ‘m not saying you shouldn’t go to Al-Anon; it can be very helpful. But, as everyone else has pointed out, this will ultimately be your decision about what you can live with.
@Medium – just another voice to echo the Al-Anon recommendations and agree with Catherine’s assessment that your it’s your hubby’s diagnosis/recognition/acknowledgement of himself as an addict/alcoholic that will matter for him – but for you, you need to start thinking of yourself and your child.
That doesn’t mean you have to start thinking “oh, I will have to leave him…” etc. But you will benefit tremendously from learning how to separate yourself from your husband’s issues – alcoholism or otherwise. If you find yourself starting to think about doing things that “manage” his drinking in some way, then you are starting to take on the disease for him, and your life will get affected (will suffer) for it.
Check out a million different Al-Anon meetings if you need to. Try the same one for a couple of weeks to get a feel for it. Even though it’s scary, reach out to someone as a “temporary sponsor” to help be an immediate connection for you. You don’t have to stay friends forever, I promise! And it’s ok if the people speaking seem more severe in their situations than you. It’s not about comparing your differences – it’s about coming together in your common need for support.
You may also want to check out CoDA meetings in your area (Codependents Anonymous) if they have more meeting options – they are not “attached” per se to a particular addiction, but still use the basic principles and support structure.
Good luck! Only you can take care of yourself. Don’t worry about what might be in the long-term. Take things one day at a time. You may find that your questions & concerns change as your circumstances evolve.
Medium – I was in a similar situation with my husband. He wasn’t drinking every day but when he did drink it was way out of proportion to what everyone else was drinking. And he drank to cope with stress. And at least once he drove home completely drunk. I’d told him I thought it was a problem, he resented me trying to control him, it became a topic we just avoided. Then we had a baby, and were stressed and exhausted and he started drinking a lot. Every day. He’d get home from work and drink a full glass of scotch or more and when I asked him to stop he started doing it when he thought I wasn’t looking. When our son was a baby he didn’t sleep and cried a lot and I was completely exhausted. Finally one night I’d been up all night with a crying baby and needed my husband to take a shift but when I went to get him he was completely passed out drunk. I couldn’t trust him to take care of our son. The next morning he poured out all the alcohol in the house. He doesn’t drink at home ever now, and limits himself to two drinks in social situations. I realize the fact that he could just quit like that means he probably wasn’t an actual alcoholic, he just had no coping skills. The reason I wanted to post this is that he wasn’t willing to quit or even cut back on his drinking for me. He did it because his own dad was an addict and he realized the effect his drinking was going to have on our son. Ultimately it is his decision, but maybe it would be worth showing him the stories from people who had parents who drink like he does?
@ Medium:
I agree with Benji, Anonymous for this one, and everyone else who put the focus on the why of his drinking. Chances are he already feels isolated. While the baby factor is of course a very big deal, turning it into “Look what you’re doing/will do to the child!” is a bad idea. He already knows he has a child. Turning it into a “me and the kid” versus “you” is just going to make him feel more isolated and possibly ganged up on. He doesn’t need more pressure; that’s a huge reason he’s drinking. He needs to get to the underlying causes of the drinking and work on those. I could be completely wrong, but he’s not drinking enough to hit rock bottom any time soon. If he agrees to quit drinking simply to please Medium, it won’t stick, or the problems will surface in other, possibly more harmful, symptoms.
Good luck no matter what, to your whole family.
Medium: I was in a similar situation to you. My husband drank only at night when everything was “done.” He didn’t miss work but he also wasn’t doing as well as he could. When our baby came he promised to quit but he didn’t. I tried to rationalize it for a good year but couldn’t escape the fact that every night I would get more and more tense as I waited for him to start drinking. My husband even began lying to hide his drinking.
The final straw for me came when I got sick and needed him to take the “night shift” for a couple days. He promised not to drink, but did, and one night I came downstairs to a crying baby and a passed out daddy. I realized then that, after about 8pm, I couldn’t count on him for anything.Visions of emergencies flashed through my head — as well as visions of the monotony of having a drunk for a husband for the rest of my life. The next day I said he c could have drinking or his family and gave him info on rehab.
He tried a variety of things: just AA meetings, outpatient rehab, but finally needed a stint in inpatient rehab (thank God for insurance!). As of yesterday, he has six months of sobriety and our family is working a lot better. Not only is he “present” all day, he’s not hungover every morning.
It’s not easy but it’s worth it. You must put yourself and your baby first. You deserve a safe and sober household. Ironically, putting yourself first can help your husband get healthier. Once you no longer put up with his drinking something will have to change. Good luck!
@ btdt:
I grew up with a father who was drunk ‘only’ Fri-Sun. It was awful. I mean, truly awful. I dreaded the weekends to the point that I would be sick to my stomach at school on Fridays, and when the weekends came, I would spend much of the time in bed so I would not have to deal with my drunk father. Add to that, no opportunity to have kids over on the weekends (no sleepovers, ever), abject fear upon waking up because I was sure that my father had done something horrible while drunk the night before. Etc. If there is any way you can get your kids out of that situation, make it a priority – they will thank you for it.
And, Medium – yeah, Al-anon. Please. Your poor toddler :(
I’m over a year late to the party, but I wanted to follow up on something Candace mentioned: coping skills. Someone who has been drinking regularly in the way described by the poster has probably used only alcohol for stress relief for years, if not decades. Remove the alcohol, and there’s a void: he has no idea what to do to deal with stress when sober.
When someone starts drinking and uses that as stress management (or anger management or whatever), they often stop developing other tools to deal with stress (ex. identifying exercise or a hobby as a stress-reliever, getting to know yourself well enough to know that you need time to decompress when you get home before talking about big issues, etc.). Take away the alcohol, and they’re left with whatever stress management skills they had as a kid, long before they had their adult responsibilities.
If you know someone who keeps trying to quit or lower intake and succeeds for a few days but then slips back, and you would like to try to help (while still keeping a healthy detachment), it could be worthwhile to explicitly discuss new strategies for dealing with the stress. This is where a therapist who specializes in behavior change can be really helpful–but if the drinker refuses to seek outside help, you can still try a few things. You can ask him in which situations or at which times of day he usually reaches for a drink
(even if you think you already know the answer), and for each of these, work together to come up with a few plans, two or three things he can do instead. You can draw on activities he enjoyed back when he was a kid or teenager that maybe he moved away from as he grew up: if running or painting or playing guitar used to bring him joy, then figuring out how to reintroduce that into his life may provide him an outlet for dealing with stress in a healthy way. In the letter-writer’s case, co-parents can try to work together to find ways of incorporating the kids into these new activities, such as buying a running stroller so that he can get back into running while having some time with the baby.
I’m talking specifically about high-functioning alcoholics here, or people where you might wonder whether they’re alcoholics without feeling complete certainty–not anyone who has gotten a DUI, lost a job because of alcoholism, etc. There seem to be a lot of people out there who feel trapped in a situation with a partner who can physically quit drinking but doesn’t stick with it for some reason, people who want to help or be supportive but don’t know how. Here’s a way to give some real help and support. No guarantees, and it’s still up to the drinker to make lasting changes, but this is all a way to take some action, rather than feel you can only watch from the sidelines.
(If he’s been able to quit for a few days at a time without ill health effects, then he’s probably psychologically addicted but not physically addicted. People who are physically addicted and try to stop drinking by themselves can die from withdrawal, which is why doctor supervision and/or inpatient detox can be vital.)