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	<title>Comments on: The Vine: September 16, 2009</title>
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	<link>http://tomatonation.com/vine/the-vine-september-16-2009/</link>
	<description>better red than dead</description>
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		<title>By: HomophobesSuck</title>
		<link>http://tomatonation.com/vine/the-vine-september-16-2009/comment-page-2/#comment-42428</link>
		<dc:creator>HomophobesSuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tomatonation.com/?p=3684#comment-42428</guid>
		<description>I forgot to say, thanks to everyone for the advice, perspectives, and those who shared similar stories. It helped a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to say, thanks to everyone for the advice, perspectives, and those who shared similar stories. It helped a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: HomophobesSuck</title>
		<link>http://tomatonation.com/vine/the-vine-september-16-2009/comment-page-2/#comment-42427</link>
		<dc:creator>HomophobesSuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tomatonation.com/?p=3684#comment-42427</guid>
		<description>Update, for anyone who is interested. The wedding isn&#039;t for almost another year, but we saw Niece recently. I took her aside and quietly told her that I would absolutely understand if she couldn&#039;t invite me, or if she had to take back the invitation later on. She looked me dead in the eye and said, &quot;No, you&#039;re invited. [Fiance] and I have discussed it and we are inviting who we want to invite, and if people have a problem with that, maybe they should stay home.&quot; Ok, message received! 

So, barring anything changing between now and next year (and I don&#039;t think it will) I am going and let the chips fall where they may. I&#039;ll keep my distance from Father and Brother if possible, and make civil conversation if I must, and if they want to act a fool or boycott the ceremony, that&#039;s their loss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Update, for anyone who is interested. The wedding isn&#039;t for almost another year, but we saw Niece recently. I took her aside and quietly told her that I would absolutely understand if she couldn&#039;t invite me, or if she had to take back the invitation later on. She looked me dead in the eye and said, &#034;No, you&#039;re invited. [Fiance] and I have discussed it and we are inviting who we want to invite, and if people have a problem with that, maybe they should stay home.&#034; Ok, message received! </p>
<p>So, barring anything changing between now and next year (and I don&#039;t think it will) I am going and let the chips fall where they may. I&#039;ll keep my distance from Father and Brother if possible, and make civil conversation if I must, and if they want to act a fool or boycott the ceremony, that&#039;s their loss.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandman</title>
		<link>http://tomatonation.com/vine/the-vine-september-16-2009/comment-page-2/#comment-38514</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tomatonation.com/?p=3684#comment-38514</guid>
		<description>@Agreed: Yet another late arrival, chiming in with Vanessa, MattPatt and Sarah the Elder. Miss Manners is a good enough authority for me. Certainly you may be guided by Niece&#039;s wishes, but I think you should expect an invitation, and if Brother and Dad can&#039;t see their way to behaving like functioning adults for the duration of Niece&#039;s wedding, you will have done no harm to Niece. 

In other news, &quot;Smurfwad.&quot; Hee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Agreed: Yet another late arrival, chiming in with Vanessa, MattPatt and Sarah the Elder. Miss Manners is a good enough authority for me. Certainly you may be guided by Niece&#039;s wishes, but I think you should expect an invitation, and if Brother and Dad can&#039;t see their way to behaving like functioning adults for the duration of Niece&#039;s wedding, you will have done no harm to Niece. </p>
<p>In other news, &#034;Smurfwad.&#034; Hee.</p>
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		<title>By: Felis D</title>
		<link>http://tomatonation.com/vine/the-vine-september-16-2009/comment-page-2/#comment-38513</link>
		<dc:creator>Felis D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tomatonation.com/?p=3684#comment-38513</guid>
		<description>Homophobe: I just came back recently from my cousin&#039;s wedding, where she invited one of her cousins (unrelated to me) and his girlfriend. He is Chinese; his girlfriend is Sri Lankan, and both his family and hers have been adamantly refusing to acknowledge the existence of the relationship for the past 5 (!!!) years. My cousin got a lot of flak from her family for inviting her cousin&#039;s girlfriend, but she stood her ground and told them all to lump it if they didn&#039;t like it. 

Then, she arranged the table seatings so that all the younger generation guests and the older generation guests sat completely apart from each other at the reception. End result, none of the antagonistic parties had to deal with each other at the reception without going out of their way to to so (and no one wanted to look like that much of a douche to cause trouble). My cousin&#039;s cousin and his girlfriend could enjoy everything in peace, and the older generation of my cousin&#039;s family didn&#039;t have to see them. 

Hopefully, the niece will be able to work stand up to her family that well, and arrange things in a similar way. And hopefully, the brother and the dad will man up and let the niece have her wedding day in peace if you and your partner do decide to go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Homophobe: I just came back recently from my cousin&#039;s wedding, where she invited one of her cousins (unrelated to me) and his girlfriend. He is Chinese; his girlfriend is Sri Lankan, and both his family and hers have been adamantly refusing to acknowledge the existence of the relationship for the past 5 (!!!) years. My cousin got a lot of flak from her family for inviting her cousin&#039;s girlfriend, but she stood her ground and told them all to lump it if they didn&#039;t like it. </p>
<p>Then, she arranged the table seatings so that all the younger generation guests and the older generation guests sat completely apart from each other at the reception. End result, none of the antagonistic parties had to deal with each other at the reception without going out of their way to to so (and no one wanted to look like that much of a douche to cause trouble). My cousin&#039;s cousin and his girlfriend could enjoy everything in peace, and the older generation of my cousin&#039;s family didn&#039;t have to see them. </p>
<p>Hopefully, the niece will be able to work stand up to her family that well, and arrange things in a similar way. And hopefully, the brother and the dad will man up and let the niece have her wedding day in peace if you and your partner do decide to go.</p>
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		<title>By: Quo Vadis Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Kate&#8217;s journals</title>
		<link>http://tomatonation.com/vine/the-vine-september-16-2009/comment-page-2/#comment-38495</link>
		<dc:creator>Quo Vadis Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Kate&#8217;s journals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tomatonation.com/?p=3684#comment-38495</guid>
		<description>[...] most of my journals in a box but the rest are in a bookcase. Coincidentally enough, I just saw an article about what to do with oneâ€™s journals in the future. Iâ€™m never sure what to do with my [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] most of my journals in a box but the rest are in a bookcase. Coincidentally enough, I just saw an article about what to do with oneâ€™s journals in the future. Iâ€™m never sure what to do with my [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah the Elder</title>
		<link>http://tomatonation.com/vine/the-vine-september-16-2009/comment-page-2/#comment-38488</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah the Elder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 20:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tomatonation.com/?p=3684#comment-38488</guid>
		<description>Also a late arrival, agreeing with MattPatt and Vanessa.

To exclude Homophobes Suck and his partner from Niece&#039;s wedding would be to accommodate/enable the years (!) of tantrums by Father and Brother. Frankly, if Father and Brother can&#039;t refrain from acting out at the wedding, that should reflect badly on them, not anyone else.

Miss Manners says it best in a q-and-a from &quot;Miss Manners&#039; Guide to the Turn of the Millennium&quot;:

Dear Miss Manners: My daughter would like to invite to her wedding a friend, who happens to be homosexual, and his live-in friend. But his parents, who do not condone his lifestyle, will also attend the wedding, and I am concerned that tension may result and spoil the atmosphere. Am I wrong to suggest that my daughter invite her friend without his partner?

Gentle Reader: Let us certainly hope that no guests consider your daughter&#039;s wedding to be a proper arena for either condoning or condemning anyone&#039;s living arrangements. It is not nice for people to speculate on the bridal couple&#039;s private behavior, much less the wedding guests&#039;. Surely the gentleman&#039;s parents have other occasions for expressing their attitude. Anyone who feels in danger of spoiling the wedding should decline the invitation. In any case, the hosts should assume that the guests will behave themselves. If your daughter otherwise sees this gentleman and his partner as a social couple, she should treat them as one on this occasion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also a late arrival, agreeing with MattPatt and Vanessa.</p>
<p>To exclude Homophobes Suck and his partner from Niece&#039;s wedding would be to accommodate/enable the years (!) of tantrums by Father and Brother. Frankly, if Father and Brother can&#039;t refrain from acting out at the wedding, that should reflect badly on them, not anyone else.</p>
<p>Miss Manners says it best in a q-and-a from &#034;Miss Manners&#039; Guide to the Turn of the Millennium&#034;:</p>
<p>Dear Miss Manners: My daughter would like to invite to her wedding a friend, who happens to be homosexual, and his live-in friend. But his parents, who do not condone his lifestyle, will also attend the wedding, and I am concerned that tension may result and spoil the atmosphere. Am I wrong to suggest that my daughter invite her friend without his partner?</p>
<p>Gentle Reader: Let us certainly hope that no guests consider your daughter&#039;s wedding to be a proper arena for either condoning or condemning anyone&#039;s living arrangements. It is not nice for people to speculate on the bridal couple&#039;s private behavior, much less the wedding guests&#039;. Surely the gentleman&#039;s parents have other occasions for expressing their attitude. Anyone who feels in danger of spoiling the wedding should decline the invitation. In any case, the hosts should assume that the guests will behave themselves. If your daughter otherwise sees this gentleman and his partner as a social couple, she should treat them as one on this occasion.</p>
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		<title>By: MattPatt</title>
		<link>http://tomatonation.com/vine/the-vine-september-16-2009/comment-page-2/#comment-38480</link>
		<dc:creator>MattPatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 01:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tomatonation.com/?p=3684#comment-38480</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with @Vanessa at 55 rather than @julie at 56 (and yes I know I&#039;m way late to this particular party) -- voluntarily exempting oneself and one&#039;s partner from the wedding will reduce the angst all around, but it still reinforces the idea that the people who &quot;deserve&quot; in some sense to be excluded are the people who haven&#039;t actually done anything wrong. Skipping the wedding in favor of short-term harmony only reinforces the idea of having a second-class status within the family. If it were me and my partner in that situation, I don&#039;t think offering to skip and host a &quot;just for us&quot; event later on would be terribly palatable, particularly if nobody has actually asked me to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with @Vanessa at 55 rather than @julie at 56 (and yes I know I&#039;m way late to this particular party) &#8212; voluntarily exempting oneself and one&#039;s partner from the wedding will reduce the angst all around, but it still reinforces the idea that the people who &#034;deserve&#034; in some sense to be excluded are the people who haven&#039;t actually done anything wrong. Skipping the wedding in favor of short-term harmony only reinforces the idea of having a second-class status within the family. If it were me and my partner in that situation, I don&#039;t think offering to skip and host a &#034;just for us&#034; event later on would be terribly palatable, particularly if nobody has actually asked me to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: julie</title>
		<link>http://tomatonation.com/vine/the-vine-september-16-2009/comment-page-2/#comment-38478</link>
		<dc:creator>julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 21:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tomatonation.com/?p=3684#comment-38478</guid>
		<description>Dear Suck,

I&#039;m for you AND your partner gracefully offering to bow out. Why does anyone want to go to a wedding? To wish the couple well. Can you do this if you are standing at the reception looking over your shoulder at all the people glaring at you? Can the bride accept your good wishes while awaiting the fireworks? I think you and your partner should call the bride, offer to bow out, and invite her over to your house for a lovely dinner party to take place either soon before or soon after the wedding. It&#039;ll be like a second mini-reception. You&#039;re not &quot;letting the homophobes win,&quot; you&#039;re protecting yourselves and the bride and groom from having to deal with ugliness, and depriving the bigots of the pleasure of snubbing you in public. Your partner&#039;s presence will be missed, serving only to underline the fact that his father and brother&#039;s bigotry drove him away. And I bet your party will be better than the reception. And the bride will probably be so grateful to be relieved of the burden of having to &quot;choose&quot; that she will start crying in gratitude when you propose this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Suck,</p>
<p>I&#039;m for you AND your partner gracefully offering to bow out. Why does anyone want to go to a wedding? To wish the couple well. Can you do this if you are standing at the reception looking over your shoulder at all the people glaring at you? Can the bride accept your good wishes while awaiting the fireworks? I think you and your partner should call the bride, offer to bow out, and invite her over to your house for a lovely dinner party to take place either soon before or soon after the wedding. It&#039;ll be like a second mini-reception. You&#039;re not &#034;letting the homophobes win,&#034; you&#039;re protecting yourselves and the bride and groom from having to deal with ugliness, and depriving the bigots of the pleasure of snubbing you in public. Your partner&#039;s presence will be missed, serving only to underline the fact that his father and brother&#039;s bigotry drove him away. And I bet your party will be better than the reception. And the bride will probably be so grateful to be relieved of the burden of having to &#034;choose&#034; that she will start crying in gratitude when you propose this.</p>
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		<title>By: Vanessa</title>
		<link>http://tomatonation.com/vine/the-vine-september-16-2009/comment-page-2/#comment-38452</link>
		<dc:creator>Vanessa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tomatonation.com/?p=3684#comment-38452</guid>
		<description>Dear Homophobes Suck,

You have done nothing wrong. The people who behave the worst do not deserve to get off easy because they are acting like asswipes. You and your partner both deserve to be angry at the situation created by someone you have no control over. You care a bunch for the niece/sister-in-law/future nephew-in-law and don&#039;t want to make the situation harder for them, but you haven&#039;t done anything to make it hard for them other than existing in world.

As a woman in a long term relationship with a woman whose sister won&#039;t talk to us, I have to say, stick up for yourselves and your relationship with Niece. Expect to be invited and to attend. Niece can act like an adult and probably will. All the suggestions of alternatives to attending the wedding suck. I&#039;m sorry, but the idea that people can be hateful and get rewarded while you think you deserve something that is less is what leads to the perpetuation of the hateful attitudes.

In our case, the sister who doesn&#039;t speak to us is the one who stopped speaking to the rest of the family. And it made the rest of both of our families see how awful the attitude was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Homophobes Suck,</p>
<p>You have done nothing wrong. The people who behave the worst do not deserve to get off easy because they are acting like asswipes. You and your partner both deserve to be angry at the situation created by someone you have no control over. You care a bunch for the niece/sister-in-law/future nephew-in-law and don&#039;t want to make the situation harder for them, but you haven&#039;t done anything to make it hard for them other than existing in world.</p>
<p>As a woman in a long term relationship with a woman whose sister won&#039;t talk to us, I have to say, stick up for yourselves and your relationship with Niece. Expect to be invited and to attend. Niece can act like an adult and probably will. All the suggestions of alternatives to attending the wedding suck. I&#039;m sorry, but the idea that people can be hateful and get rewarded while you think you deserve something that is less is what leads to the perpetuation of the hateful attitudes.</p>
<p>In our case, the sister who doesn&#039;t speak to us is the one who stopped speaking to the rest of the family. And it made the rest of both of our families see how awful the attitude was.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacq</title>
		<link>http://tomatonation.com/vine/the-vine-september-16-2009/comment-page-2/#comment-38430</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 09:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tomatonation.com/?p=3684#comment-38430</guid>
		<description>I have only ever thrown away one journal - a diary I kept for my first year of university. I regret getting rid of it to this day (13 years later). It doesn&#039;t matter what you wrote back then - it&#039;s who you were at the time and it&#039;s nothing to be ashamed of. I&#039;ve kept all my journals since then, even the dark and grim ones from a bad bout of depression a few years back.

If the idea of other people reading your innermost thoughts fills you with complete horror, burn the journals and be done with it. I would think, though, that this is the kind of stuff that your grandchildren will absolutely love to find in 50 years&#039; time - the real meat and bones of a family member, and the context within which to place the person they know or knew.

Plus, I&#039;m a fairly private person and don&#039;t talk about my feelings much with anybody, so I plan to pluck stuff from my journals as material for a novel I&#039;m planning, safe in the knowledge that nobody will know it&#039;s about me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have only ever thrown away one journal &#8211; a diary I kept for my first year of university. I regret getting rid of it to this day (13 years later). It doesn&#039;t matter what you wrote back then &#8211; it&#039;s who you were at the time and it&#039;s nothing to be ashamed of. I&#039;ve kept all my journals since then, even the dark and grim ones from a bad bout of depression a few years back.</p>
<p>If the idea of other people reading your innermost thoughts fills you with complete horror, burn the journals and be done with it. I would think, though, that this is the kind of stuff that your grandchildren will absolutely love to find in 50 years&#039; time &#8211; the real meat and bones of a family member, and the context within which to place the person they know or knew.</p>
<p>Plus, I&#039;m a fairly private person and don&#039;t talk about my feelings much with anybody, so I plan to pluck stuff from my journals as material for a novel I&#039;m planning, safe in the knowledge that nobody will know it&#039;s about me!</p>
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