The Vine: October 24, 2007
Hi Sars,
Now that my beloved Sox will have to face off against Colorado, I’ve been thinking about how tough it will be for them to play there. It’s started an internal debate about whether or not it’s fair for the league to allow teams to join who will have such crap conditions as their home field. On the one hand, I don’t think a team should be refused if their city and the league can support them, and I don’t know where you’d draw the lines if you were going to try: would you have to start forcing domed stadiums, or standardising the heights of the walls (*cough* Green Monster *cough*), or stuff like that? But on the other hand, while I may not know where the line is, I feel sure that having to keep your baseballs in a humidor is on the wrong side of it. Once the environmental factors start stuffing around with the equipment to that degree, it seems to me that the game is being interfered with, and that’s a problem.
I know that Denver has had a football stadium for years, but that troubles me slightly less, if only because the football season is so much shorter that I feel like the cumulative effect would be diminished. If only a handful of teams have to play there, and only for one game apiece, it seems less of an issue (even though I know that visiting football teams do struggle there). And maybe over time baseball teams will get more used to playing that high up as well. But as you’re a baseball smartie, I was wondering what you thought about the situation.
Cheers,
Now That The Curse Has Been Reversed, What Am I Supposed To Be Yelling?
Dear Let Me Get Back To You When I Can Rhyme “Varitek” And “Overrated,”
…Ohhh yes I did!
Just kidding. Sort of. Dude just bugs me.
I don’t have a problem with visiting teams having to suck it up and deal with Coors Field. Not that I haven’t made fun of the humidor; I’ve done so recently, in fact. But at least they did something to address the problem. I remember listening to an interleague game the Yanks played out there a couple years ago, pre-humidor, and it was like T-ball — every other at bat, someone punched it round-trip, which gets boring, plus the Colorado’s staff ERA was in Avogadro territory. (It would have been anyway, because the team stank then, but still.) The altitude is still an issue for Boston, but the Rockies have to come down to sea level for at least two games, too. They had to do it all year. They went to the desert, they went to the seaside, over the river and through the woods, they had to play a bunch of games in San Francisco with that whole circus going on…that’s baseball. Literally. You have to win on the road. If the Sox can’t, well, they’ve got home-field advantage.
And to that point, Fenway is, in my opinion, at least as great a disadvantage for the Rockies as the thinner air is for the Red Sox. It’s a small park, but it’s wall-to-wall intense, and I don’t think you’ll see very many Rockies hats at the games. Sox hats at Coors Field, for sure. The reverse, I don’t know. It’s got to be one of the most intimidating places in the league for a visiting team.
Really, you could point to any number of inequities. The Rockies had to work out indoors the other night; should the Sox have to do that, so it’s fair? The Rockies had a very long stretch of off time between the NLCS and the World Series, which may affect their mojo or make them rusty; should we sit the Sox for a week, so it’s fair?
Yeah, the Rockies are used to the higher altitude. They’re also used to rolling to victory against NL lineups, and not to take anything away from their accomplishments so far, but the Boston batting order is made of somewhat sterner stuff than the Rockies might be used to. Stuff like Manny. And if Manny isn’t getting enough oxygen to showboat effectively, you know, I’m not going to cry about it…but if the Rockies’ semi-crap regular-season road record is predictive, I’m not going to cry about that, either, because if you want to win the World Series, you’ve got to beat Manny and Papelbon and Beckett and the Monster and all of it.
These guys get paid a lot of money to “cowboy up” for shit like this, and in any case, I don’t think you have anything to worry about; see above. God bless the Rockies, they’ve had a great ride, but from where I sit it’s Sox in 5.
Comments are open if Denver natives would care to strenuously disagree.
Well, the Green Monster was put there so that people walking on Lansdowne Street wouldn’t be struck and killed by liners over the wall. Not that it doesn’t present an advantage, particularly for the left fielders who know how to play the wall; it mostly presents an advantage for people who would like to live to see the next day.
And I agree about visiting teams just sucking it up and dealing with it. They know their home advantages, so they know they have to pay their dues on the road. Hell, I’ve heard a lot of guys list road parks as favorite places to play because of certain park factors. They do what they have to do. If home field advantage was really that big a deal, everyone’d be 81-0 at home.
Varitek is overrated, by the way. Drink whenever Tek leaves men in scoring position! His pitch-calling skills are grossly overrated, too; why hasn’t every Boston pitcher thrown a no-hitter every time he’s behind the plate? Oh, right, because no-hitters are mostly luck. Jeez.
P.S. We have Yaz throwing out the first pitch tonight, which is good mojo for the Sox. Is that unfair to the Rockies? Hee. (If it goes six games and the Sox don’t have Fisk for Game 6, I will be mad. Carlton Ernest “Pudge” Fisk is Game 6 Mojo.)
Unrelated to the weather, I will comment on the Rockies fans at Fenway and the like. I had the most bestest night ever in October 2001 when I got to attend WS Game 3 at Yankee Stadium. I could gush about the night for hours, however, the one memory that stands out above the others (Yanks fans referring to Knoblauch as “fuckface” among them) is the Diamondbacks fan who had the chutzpah to arrive in the bleachers decked out in purple from head to toe. I admired him so much even as sodas were flying at his head. He knew what he was getting himself into but he was a proud fan. And that’s how it should be. Not the best segue, but those are my 2 cents. There’s no crying in baseball!
Sars: It ain’t over til it’s over. And the Rockies are excited to be playing in Boston, re: history, etc. If our boys lose fair and square, so be it. As Westerners though, a lot of us feel that a World Series victory against the Indians wouldn’t be as sweet as a victory against the Red Sox; again, re: history, etc. So lots of excitement here in our giant, square state. Also in the surrounding states, ’cause there isn’t much to root for between California and Kansas City, you know? I completely respect your opinion regarding all things baseball, (and most everything else as well) but God, I hope you’re wrong this time. Peace.
Not a Denver fan (go Mariners!… next year), but I would add that if Denver had such a huge home field advantage, they’d win more pennants, wild cards, etc. than they have. They had a great end-of-season run, but they weren’t really turning heads before that.
Just in general, I *love* park factors. I love that no other sport besides baseball does that thing where everywhere you play is different sizes and has, like, obstacles and the like. I like that every time they build a new one, they keep making the parks wacky. It’s so quirky and adorably baseball.
And yes, by park factors, Coors is still a hitters park, but, hey, thanks to interleague play, hasn’t Boston already been there this season? (I could be very wrong. All’s I know is that Jeff Francis has beaten Josh Beckett before this season, though, there is only one October, apparently, which might be a factor.)
Speaking of all this, Rick Reilly (who is from Denver) has a wonderful article in this week’s Sports Illustrated about what it means to that city to have a team at all, let alone in the World Series.
If I weren’t a Sox fan, I’d actually feel support for the Rockies. As it is though…
Apropos of very little: I just deleted a comment spam from “Billy Martin.” Hee.
I loved that Reilly piece, It’sJessMe! He’s really not exaggerating about the contrast between old and new LoDo, and what the Rockies have done for the city of Denver. I’m a Denver native (now living on the East Coast) and I have wonderful memories of going to games at Coors Field. I was in middle school when it was first built and I’d never been to a big-league ballgame before. Even when they sucked it was so awesome to sit out in the summer sun with a Churro and a Rockies baseball cap cheering them on. I don’t care if they have to keep balls in a humidor, I will defend to my death the Rockies’ right to exist and by extension my right to eat a Churro at Coors Field.
I’m not a fan of either team, but speaking as a psychology person who relies HEAVILY on statistics, I give it to the Sox, too. Regression toward the mean puts the Rockies at a serious disadvantage. They won an ungodly number of games in a row, people. That has to stop sometime, especially up against a team like the Sox.
Dude, don’t hate on Tek. He calls a great game, he’s unfailingly courteous to opposing teams, he shuts up and does his job every damn day. Hate the unending ball-washing he gets in the press, sure. I imagine that’s (nearly) as annoying for non-Sox fans as the Odes to Jeter, the Doe-Eyed King of All Sport and Rescuer of Hurt Puppies, are to non-Yankees fans. But Tek never did nuthin’ to no one.
‘Cept A-Rod, of course.
I hope New Yankee Stadium has churros. Or at least something I can eat besides popcorn. Not dogs, people! Get with the veg program!
I’m sure Tek’s fine. I still hate his ass. It’s not rational (see also: Bream, Sid), but: hate. I think it’s that douchey goatee, and don’t think I didn’t notice yours, Greek God Of Walks, because that shit is hoogly.
Well, considering that right now it’s RAINING in Boston and the crowd is going bazoo (good point regarding the fans, Sars) AND kicking the living daylights out of the Rockies as I type this (seriously, 1 – 10 going into the 6th is on the verge of an ass-whoopin’) I don’t think the boys in Boston have much to worry about. I mean hey, it’s not supposed to snow or anything! That’s baseball. And having grown up with no professional teams, it’s pretty dang awesome that Mountain Standard Time has a team to root for. I am actually a fan of both teams. Come on, the chances of them ever meeting up in the World Series would have mystified a group of MIT statistical analysts. But there can be. Only. One. I’m rooting for the Rockies, but I wouldn’t front that with any cash, that’s for sure.
13-1 as of right now, 6 innings in. If I were playing a drinking game right now I’d be in the hospital.
They’re putting baseballs in a thermidor? When did that start happening? This is what I get for being AL-centric, I guess.
Oh, sorry, I didn’t realize it was one of those irrational hates. Everyone’s entitled to a few of those. (I’m looking at you, Giambi. WASH YOUR HAIR!) And I would pay good money to shave Youk, also known at my house as “Facebush.” It looks like he started a pushbroom farm on his chin.
It really is presumptuous of a city in the mountains to think they’re as entitled to a baseball team as much as cities with such stellar weather as New York and Boston. How rude.
Thank you. I’m a Giants fan, but I’m pulling for the NL West (the Rockies are the team I dislike *least* in our division), and while I’m sure the Sox are going to beat them soundly on their own merits for the most part, Fenway is an important wild-card factor that does contribute something to their success. Plus whenever people go on about Coors, I always have to wonder if the Rockies aren’t at a disadvantage after all, since they don’t have to hit the balls as hard when they’re at home and don’t have the same regular practice.
@Abigail — you almost made me spew coffee all over my monitor. That is exactly what I was thinking!
Sox in 5 is looking about right, based on last night’s performance. If it makes it to 5. And considering that Colorado has been a team since, oh, last Tuesday night, they don’t deserve to win the World Series yet. Also, they’re named after a whole state. There’s something wrong with that.
My Celebrity Husband Jason Varitek is immune to your criticism. :)
GO SOX!!!!!!
It’s not the altitude that caused issues with the number of long balls to be hit at Coors Field. It was the semi-arid climate that dehydrates everything and into hard bundles of matter (skin and baseballs alike). Therefore, the humidor keeps the balls softer and do not travel as far when whacked.
The altitude isn’t a problem for athletes unless they are doing a LOT of aerobic work, which isn’t a factor in baseball, but is a huge factor in the fourth quarter of a football game.
That said, the Rockies absolutely earned their trip to the World Series and if they lose, fine, but they belong in the race.
“And I would pay good money to shave Youk, also known at my house as “Facebush.” It looks like he started a pushbroom farm on his chin.”
Heeeeeee!!! My husband and I hate on him every time we see him on tv and we really have no reason to other than that mentioned above.
We’re also pros at hating on Giambi. (My husband: “Meeeeeeeeeeeat Heeeeeeeeeead!!!!”)
“And if Manny isn’t getting enough oxygen to showboat effectively…”
Bwah ha ha!
I….don’t know what to say. Nothing like a sound spanking to start out the Series. 13-1?! Well. Hopefully our boys will get their feet back under them tonight. One loss does not a series make. (Crosses fingers and prays fervently)
Yes, yes, I strenuously disagree. To imply that the only reason the Rox have become NL champions is that the competition was weak is to take away from how fantastically and cohesively they have been playing all season, and it’s pretty insulting. And I’m not even a die-hard baseball fan.
Hey Sars,
My pops, a lifelong Sox fan, HATES Varitek. Can’t stand him. So while the local media would have you believe that Varitek is the be-all end-all, know that there are those in New England who would love to see him gone. I don’t hate him, but totally agree he’s overrated.
Also, when it looked (to me) like Cleveland was going to the World Series a part of me was glad that I’d be able to root for the Rockies. I love my Red Sox, but the Rockies totally have my respect, and in general I wish for nothing but the best for them.
The home park advantage is really important – because otherwise, what else would Buck and McCarver yammer on about? Ooooh, The High Altitude! Oh, no, not The Most Expansive Right Field in the WHOLE WORLD! Oh, dear, the DH conundrum! How will a professional baseball team ever manage to perform under those circumstances? Between those fools and Dane Cook…oooh, I’m a telling you.
Besides, thanks to Fox, they’re practically playing in NOVEMBER, at MIDNIGHT. I think they’ll all manage fine. Well, I don’t know about those Rockies, but we’ll see what happens tonight when they take on Sars’s boyfriend Schilling.
Oh, and Sars, I’ll trade your irrational hate on The Captain for my absolute irritation with all things Posada.
@Tina: Eh. 90-73 is pretty good, but I don’t know that I’d go with “fantastic.” And AL batting orders tend to be stronger because of the DH — meaning AL pitchers have to contend with the DHs all season.
It’s not a huge disparity, but it’s there. Wild-card teams that, on paper, might not seem like good bets can win the World Series (it happened last year). But it’s not happening this year. The Rockies haven’t faced anything close to this Red Sox offense yet in the postseason; cohesion ain’t enough.
Colleen: “It looks like he started a pushbroom farm on his chin.”
What is UP with the facial hair on the Sox? Josh Beckett’s soul patch has a soul patch – it’s just WRONG.
Sars, if you haven’t checked out FJM today, you need to. Lupica was the writer of choice to get ripped and KT, as usual, delivers.
Word to all of the above, but…OK I’ve shut up about it as long as I can: does anyone else think it is a frickin’ National Disgrace for the World Series to be anchored by that skank Jeannie Zelasko???? She of the “I’ve only got one vocal pattern and it’s a screech, only one hand gesture and it’s ‘have you noticed my french manicure?’ and I just gotten a fresh makeup trowel job”?
I know that Fox is Fox and there’s only so much they can do, and believe me it just makes me curse Rupert MurdocH even more for outbidding networks that could give this event some dignity and some perspective, but if she were even attractive enough to be pulling in the men, I could see it. Even my husband and teenage sons are like, “Omigod not her again!”
Has she got pictures of someone? What is the deal? Seriously.
This native Coloradoan will strenuously object. Excuse me, “crap” conditions? We have *different* conditons – every city does. It’s just another factor that adds interest and variety to every sport.
@Catherine sez “Also, they’re named after a whole state.There’s something wrong with that.”
Umm… you probably don’t want to hear about the Florida Marlins, then (won ’97 World Series, 4-3). Or the Arizona Diamondbacks (won ’00 World Series, 4-3). Or the Minnesota Twins (won ’87 and ’91 Serieses, both 4-3). Or the Texas Rangers (who, admittedly, never made it to a series).
@Melissa – word to the word. Jeannie Zelasko is a nightmare. But I really can’t stand the whole lot of them. I miss my local broadcast, where they assume you know how the game is played, and also assume that you don’t really need to know that the opposing pitcher’s favorite movie is the Shawshank Redemption. No need for filler, folks – it’s the World Series!!
Crap conditions, indeed! Come on out to a mid-summer game at Coors Field and enjoy super-blue skies, lots of sunshine, and maybe 30% humidity. And vegetarian options.
assume that you don’t really need to know that the opposing pitcher’s favorite movie is the Shawshank Redemption
If you’re a Dodgers fan, this is the kind of insight you get from Vin Scully for the (ever-decreasing number of) games that he broadcasts. Whoever’s responsible for giving Internet access to a soon-to-be octogenarian needs to be shot. I’d much, much rather hear it from Vin than BucCarver, though.
Agreeing with Susanna and Leigh on the different conditions. It was 80 on Saturday, I got sunburnt. Then it snowed. Now it’s in the 70’s. That’s pretty much how it works in the fall or the spring. I go to a handfull of games each year, a number of bike races/triathalons and multiple concerts; the bike racers and musicians seem to have a harder time with the altitude than the baseball players.
Varitek has hot thighs – isn’t that enough? Seriously, ignore the beard and spend some time looking at his thighs and you will feel the love.
As for the parks, I’ve been to both and they are both spectacular for their own reasons. And after enough time at Fenway, being able to buy beer in the stands at Coors is an amazing thing. But the home field advantage is definitely to the Sox: I was at game 7 and I have never heard anything louder in my life.
@Karin…my great plan of visiting all the major-league ballparks was derailed years ago because they keep building new ones, and I haven’t made it to Fenway yet (oh SOMEDAY PLEASE PLEASE), but am I to understand you can’t buy beer in the stands there? My brain is exploding and I think I need clarification here.
Yeah, Leigh, Boston’s liquor laws forbid roaming beer vendors in the stands at Fenway, Foxboro, and the Garden. Blue laws bite—until a couple years ago, liquor stores weren’t even allowed to open on Sunday. Blame the Puritans.
Ah -thanks! So you can buy beer from a concession, you just have to get up to do it. I totally agree – blue laws bite. Here in Denver, no liquor stores are open on Sundays, but you CAN buy 3.2 beer and wine at the grocery. To which I say, “And the point of that is….?”
Colleen: Liquor stores STILL can’t open on Sundays here in Colorado, and you may not sell a vehicle commercially on that day either. What one has to do with the other, I do not know.
Speaking of the coverage, did anyone else make fun of their ninth-inning cutaway to Japanese newspaper coverage, suddenly accompanied by the plinky “this sounds really Asian, right? right?” music? It was like they got to the ninth inning and thought, oh crap, one of our interns put this together, look, one of the Japanese guy is up, better get this in now!
Personally I want to combine all the annoying advertising and make Dane Cook start doing FloMax commercials.
Catherine:
I’m a Sox fan, too, but if you’ve got a problem with a team named after an entire state, how do you feel about one named after an entire region? Even if they are going to eviscerate the entire NFL this year…
Aw, the memory of 3.2 beer on a sunday, haha (SO glad I moved). I’m a born and bred CO girl, and I’d like to hope my boys will make it through, but I agree with Sars. The Rockies have not faced anything like Boston in the post season so far, and if they do take it all—I’ll be watching for some flying pigs outside my window.
“And I would pay good money to shave Youk, also known at my house as “Facebush.” It looks like he started a pushbroom farm on his chin.”
Ha! I keep getting distracted by the fact that he looks EXACTLY like my friend’s ex-fiance. And word about Beckett’s irritating soul patch. Although, I have to say I kind of get a kick out of the various hair styles of the sox. Here in NYC, I am forced to watch far too many Yankee games, and as a result I have developed a fine appreciation of the Sox’s weird hair, Manny’s goofiness, Papelbon’s dancing, the bullpen percussion, etc. The Yankees may have all that history and all those championships, but they’re kind of boring .
After last night, I’d be shocked if the Rockies win the whole thing. But watching that rout I felt bad enough that I would be ok with them winning a game, for pride’s sake.
Hey, it’s 72 degrees out right now in Denver (with a beautiful sunset), so “crap” conditions it is not. Besides, it’s not the state’s fault that baseball season now lasts so late into the fall – blame TV for that genius choice. Baseball’s a summer pastime, it shouldn’t interfere with my beloved hockey season!
Though I must admit that when everyone’s so into the Series, it’s made it very easy to get cheap good seats for Avalanche games, so I’ll give baseball credit just this once.
As a Denver inhabitatant and Colorado native, I WOULD like to strenuously disagree. I could write and complain about how all those sea level cities have humidity that us mountain folk dislike, if only for the fact that makes ones skin crawl like bugs. High humidity in the middle of the summer–we can hardly breathe. And the humidor isn’t being used to bring the playing field UP to par, it is to keep the baseballs softer so they’re not knocked out of the park every time one of those obnoxious Boston players ambles up to the plate, bad hair and all. As far as the altitude affecting their breathing, baseball players hardly do enough running for it to even make a difference. Soccer? Absolutely. Football? Yes. Hockey and baseball too. But sprinting from second to home? I don’t think so.
Thanks to Abigail for pointing out how incosiderate it is for us to think we deserve professional sports (in addition to the amazing outdoor sports we already have as part of our landscape…sorry, just bragging now). Cracked me up.
Kyle: I’m a Redskins fan. And I’m from Philly. And I stand by my statement.
“Oh, and Sars, I’ll trade your irrational hate on The Captain for my absolute irritation with all things Posada.â€
Get in line, Jen. Sweet Jesus do I hate Posada. Even if he has the cutest kid in baseball. Every time I see him without his mask on I want to punch him in the face.
Tek, even with his bad hair and God Squad tendencies, is hella cute. I like ‘em beefy, what can I say.
I don’t think anyone is saying Colorado sucks. It doesn’t. I think some people are saying it was a sucky place to play baseball Humidor B.C. Which it was. Too me that is more of a concern than say rain or snow conditions, because the altitude/humidity/whatever effects every game!
I still think the biggest WS problem is the DH/No DH ridiculousness. It needs to be all one or all the other, IMO.
“assume that you don’t really need to know that the opposing pitcher’s favorite movie is the Shawshank Redemptionâ€
Seriously! When did this become the Little League World Series? I though we were going to find out that Papelbon’s favorite class is Gym and Tulowitzki favorite color is Blue. Hate!
Sars, at least you have a decent team to root for (grammatically awkward but “for which to root” is tortured at best). I have to live with the misbegotten Texas Rangers. The only player I loathe is A-Rod.
That fifth inning in the first game was hilarious. My husband used to pitch in a sort of semi-pro league (lots of minor leaguers hoping to make it back up) and hearing his critique was hilarious. Nothing like walking three home with the bases loaded!
If y’alls want every goddam major league sport to have a team in y’alls every goddam South/Mountain/West city with a population over 10,000 (hello Charlotte! hello Tampa! hello Phoenix!) then you gotta be prepared that yes, seasons are unpredictable and you might just be playing the Sox or the Twins or Green Bay sometime between October 1st and January 30th. Ya wanna play with the big boys? Ya playin’. And winnin’. So kwitcherbitchin’.
Signed, My Mom Watched the A’s Play Ball When They Were In…. PHILLY.