The Vine: April 14, 2006
Dear Sars,
I’ve been friends with Polly for three years, since our sophomore year
of high school. For the grand majority of those three years, we’ve
been getting together to have fun. Since there’s not much to do around
our town and we’re both broke, we usually wind up hanging out around
her house. This would be really great, except for Polly’s dad.
Polly’s relationship with her dad is not the best. From what she’s
told me I’ve gathered that he’s been abusive and generally messed up
(alcoholic and with a host of mental issues) for years. Obviously,
having visited Polly’s home for three years now, I’ve met and
interacted with her dad reasonably often. It’s kind of weird, with
what Polly’s told me about him, but my rule of thumb with people I
don’t know well is to be very polite and as friendly as possible while
still maintaining some sort of distance. At first he seemed nice
enough — socially awkward, perhaps, and a little bit attention-seeking,
but overall a friendly man.
But things have gotten increasingly
awkward for me as Polly has told me more about his past behavior and
I’ve actually witnessed several family fights. They’ve never escalated
to the point of previous fights that Polly told me about before — that
is to say, screaming matches — but they’ve lasted for hours, and the
atmosphere in her house is always incredibly tense during and after
them.
Despite sometimes feeling uncomfortable there, I still get together
with Polly; she’s my friend, and I like hanging out with her. But
Polly’s dad has started to really give me the creeps. He’s recently
told me on several occasions that I’m like “another daughter” to him
and that he “loves having me around.” Frequently when I go over to
Polly’s now he seems to almost try actively to get my attention, and
when he gets it he won’t leave me alone (sometimes he’ll talk to me
for an hour or more). He sometimes pokes me or pulls at my hair or
flicks water at me. (He does that to Polly too, but it’s different to
do that to someone who’s not your own offspring…)
Very recently I
phoned to talk to Polly, but she was out, so her dad talked to me for
a long time and repeatedly told me that he misses having me around
(I’ve been too busy with schoolwork to visit) and asked where I’ve
been. He also wouldn’t let me off the phone for at least half an hour
and in the end offered to “be there for me” if I ever “needed someone
to talk to.” I never really know how to react to any of this when it
happens, so I just ignore it and act polite and friendly, just as I
always have.
I’ve told myself that this is just a result of the way he is: he’s a
little immature, so the hair-tugging/water-splashing/rare tickling can
be excused. Or maybe it’s just his way of showing affection. And he
does do more of that to Polly than he does to me, so maybe it’s not as
bad as I think. He also seems kind of lonely, because Polly flat-out
hates him and won’t talk to him, and I guess he doesn’t get along with
many people, so maybe that’s why he’s always trying to get my
attention. And really, offering to lend me a shoulder to cry on was a
pretty considerate thing to do. But no matter what I say to myself,
I’m still really uncomfortable with the attention he’s paying me. I
know that I should be glad that he approves of me as his daughter’s
friend, and I should be glad that he’s being friendly to me, but every
time he spends more time with me than strictly necessary or starts to
talk to me in more depth than a passing couple sentences I start to
feel uneasy (especially if he starts in with the prying
I-love-you-like-a-daughter stuff).
Because of my schoolwork, I haven’t been visiting Polly’s place
recently, which puts distance between me and her dad; but if I
continue this, it also means I barely ever get to hang out with Polly
anymore. Should I stop going over to Polly’s house forever? I still
want to have fun with Polly somehow, but if I avoid her house there’s
no real way to do so. My house is incredibly inconvenient to get to;
neither of us has any money; and there’s not much to do in town that
doesn’t have a cost attached to it.
Am I being unreasonable? So far Polly’s dad hasn’t actually DONE
anything that would, rationally, make me uncomfortable; he’s only been
friendly. I can’t help but feel that I’m overreacting, big-time. The
thing is that with every genuinely creepy guy I’ve ever met, I’ve
found his behaviour a little odd, but I’ve thought to myself, “I’m
overreacting — he’s just being friendly.” It’s always turned out that
he’s just as creepy as (or creepier than) I thought. But THOSE guys
were all just out of their teens — honestly, they were bound to be
pretty dumb and creepy. Polly’s dad has got to be at least 47. He’s
too old to have any really creepy motives behind what he’s
doing — isn’t he?
I really don’t know what to think. Am I being a paranoid loser? What
should I do about this? Anything? Help!
Sincerely,
All This Surrogate Daughter Stuff Actually Kind Of Scares Me
Dear Surrogate,
“He’s
too old to have any really creepy motives behind what he’s
doing — isn’t he?” Oh, honey. Wake up, will you please? He doesn’t “love you like a daughter.” He wants to fuck you.
I’m putting it that baldly because you need to get it, and you need to stop going over there. I don’t know where you got the idea that “polite” extended to 1) sitting around when other families are fighting for hours on end, 2) allowing a man unrelated to you to tickle you when you are, presumably, already of bra-wearing age, or 3) talking on the phone like BFF girlfriends to your friend’s dad, but — stop. You should have excused yourself from the house; you should have told him to stop touching you, anywhere, at all, ever; you should have gotten off the call the minute you understood that Polly wasn’t home. You didn’t. Start.
The guy’s a creep, and he’s got your number. He knows you won’t say anything and won’t trust your instincts, all of which are screaming that the guy’s a grody molester; that’s how guys like that work.
“And really, offering to lend me a shoulder to cry on was a
pretty considerate thing to do.” No, it wasn’t. It was an attempt to hit on you. I’m sorry you won’t be able to spend time with Polly anymore, but: here we are. Her father is a pig who has already probably committed like seventeen misdemeanors with his behavior so far. Do not spend any more time with him ever again.
Hi Sars,
I have a friend question for you.
I met my friend K during my freshman year in high school, almost twelve years ago. She calls me her best friend. At the current moment, I think she’s a tool. Let me explain. Two days ago my fiancé and I decided to separate. I’ve been unhappy for some time now, and I need time/space to sort my feelings out. Understandably (or at least I think), I’ve been upset and worried about it. When I first told K, she was really nice about it, and said to let her know if I need anything et cetera. Admittedly, I’ve been an emotional wreck and not much fun to be around.
Cut to tonight. I called K to vent basically, and did the whole “what if I never find anyone?”, “what if this is all my fear of commitment,” blah blah blah. Her response? “I don’t know what to tell you, we’ve been over this twelve times already, I feel like I’m kicking a dead horse.” Sars, I’m really pissed off and hurt by this. I know hearing the same problems over and over isn’t fun but, damn, it’s been two days! TWO DAYS! Am I justified in expecting my “friend” for twelve years to suck it up and let me be annoying for a while? What’s your take on this? Any perspective you could give me right now would be REALLY appreciated.
Signed,
Anyone ELSE?
Dear Anyone,
Well, of course you’re justified if it’s only been two days.
But I get the feeling there’s more to this that I’m not hearing. I mean, sure, you get sick of repeating phrases like “well, he wants someone to be his mother, and that’s not you” and “you weren’t happy, you had no choice,” but even if that’s how you feel, you don’t usually say so. Yeah, she’d rather talk about movies too, in a perfect world, but that’s not where we are, so pull up a beer and do the job. You know.
So, either K all of a sudden out of left field got her nose out of joint and turned into a bad friend, which is certainly possible, or…you’ve been talking about this for longer than two days, which…is also possible. You do say that you’ve been unhappy for some time. And I’m not saying friends shouldn’t be there for you over the course of something like this, or that there’s a time limit on how much you should be talking about it, or anything like that. I’m saying that, generally, people don’t just burst out with a comment that insensitive for no reason, and that, if your venting has really been just repeating that you’re going to die alone and kind of fishing for compliments, and she’s been telling you that’s not true and it’s okay and you did the right thing, but you’re just really not hearing her at all and talking past her…
Okay, let me put it a different way, because this is starting to sound like I’m blaming you, which I’m not. So: venting styles. I think I’ve mentioned this before, but my theory is that there are two styles of venting — the get-it-out kind, and the find-a-solution kind. Some people favor one style over another, other people use different kinds in different situations, but the salient point is that they aren’t the same, and if you’re venting because you need to get shit off your chest, you’re doing the get-it-out kind. It sounds to me, maybe, like K comes at venting from the find-a-solution standpoint — that she thinks you’re asking her for answers or fixes, and because she can’t provide them, she’s kind of done with the conversation. It doesn’t necessarily mean she doesn’t care about you; it just means she’s not really getting the purpose of the call.
So, after all that, you might just tell K that you really just need someone to listen; you’re not looking for her to solve your life, you just want to know someone’s there for you. This may not be something that comes naturally to her, so you may need to find another friend for that, and again, it’s not that K is necessarily a bad friend, or mean. She just has a different approach to venting from yours, and you might have to adjust for that. I myself have certain friends who, if I want to talk through a problem, I know for a fact they’re going to be like, “Well, try one of these three things; I have to go now,” so I don’t call them if I’m just looking for sympathy.
This could have been a one-word answer. Why do I do this to myself? God.
Sars,
I’m in a situation and I’m not quite sure how I got here. And of course it’s about a boy. Let’s call him “Bozo” for lack of better name. I’ve known Bozo for almost two years now. He’s cute, athletic and fun to be around, but he’s incredibly immature and eventually cheats on every girl he dates. He’s never hid these things from me and consequently, I’ve never wanted to date him and have told him point blank that I never wanted to hook up with him again (although I did a few times when we first met). However, I place a high value on his friendship as he’s helped me through some rough times and until now, has treated me with the utmost respect.
Fast-forward to his latest birthday. I had just endured one of the worst weeks of my life (that’s a whole other letter) and we ended up drinking heavily. By the end of the night, we were both drunk and we ended up sleeping together. I didn’t remember anything the morning after, but he was honest about what happened. A few days later, my memory came back and I clearly remembered the part where I gave my consent. Now, if this was a random guy I would chalk it up to a stupid mistake. I realize the part I played in it. However, this is Bozo, a man I consider my rock, and I feel like he breached my trust.
And I’m at a loss as to what to do. At first I thought I was all worked up because I was starting to like him, but the rational part of me quickly brushed that aside. As I write this, I’m wondering if it boils down to me feeling like a fool for believing that Bozo was a man that would give me some coffee and hold my hand as I passed out on the couch rather than take advantage, so to speak, of a close friend who had lost her ability to make rational decisions.
What makes it more complicated is that he recently “broke up” with his girlfriend (they do this every few months), whom I like a great deal, and I feel like I betrayed her in some way. I realize now that Bozo is probably bad news, but I can’t seem to brush him aside because we have so much history. Recently, he’s been extra nice to me although he hasn’t apologized.
So Sars, am I getting all worked up about nothing? Should I shun him? Realize I made a mistake and not bring it up at all? Or am I just overreacting to everything? I’ve considered talking to him about this, but something’s always stopped me.
Sincerely,
Just say no to excessive drinking
Dear No,
You’re worked up; it is what it is, so don’t spend a bunch of time trying to talk yourself out of how your feel. Instead, do what you’re doing in this letter: look at why you’re upset, think about where it comes from, and decide what you want to do.
I think maybe you put a little too much trust in Bozo; no, he probably shouldn’t have taken advantage of your friendship, but you’d both been drinking, you’d hooked up before, and it re-complicated itself really quickly and can’t be undone. The more interesting question, to me, is why you put yourself in this position to begin with — and for purposes of clarity, I’m not saying you “deserved” this or “did it to yourself” or whatever. You are responsible for your own actions, yes, and you did give your consent; this isn’t about that. This is an in vino veritas issue — why did you go to Bozo for comfort in the first place, instead of a girlfriend? And why, once you were intoxicated, did sleeping with him seem like a good idea?
I know you don’t really remember much, and that you feel like you weren’t entirely in control of your decision-making; my point here is that, when your inhibitions were lowered, this is what happened and not something else, and I think, if you want to get at the root of why this is upsetting to you, you have to think about why it was Bozo you turned to even though you knew he was not the most trustworthy — why he was “your rock” and not someone else. Why this is such a betrayal for you.
I can’t really say whether you’re overreacting; I think you feel out of control in the situation and that can be disturbing, and I also think that a relationship you thought you understood is now evidently not what you’d perceived, which is also disturbing. Take some time away from Bozo. Tell him you’re doing so and that you just need a while to sort things out.
But you did make certain decisions here, before you drank a single drop of alcohol, and it’s those I think you need to look at.
Sars,
I love your no-nonsense advice, and I’m currently in a situation where I think I’m being the no-nonsense one, but I have a tendency to be a little uncompassionate in drama-riffic situations, so I need an outsider’s opinion. Here’s the situation:
I used to work with two girls — I’ll call them Sally and Betty. About two years ago, Sally, who is still a good friend of mine, quit her job at the company where we worked. Shortly thereafter, she told me that she and Betty had not parted on the best of terms, because Betty had started emailing her (Sally’s) husband, hitting on him, trying to convince him to leave Sally. Weird, stalker-ish behavior. So Sally (and her husband) cut off all communication with Betty. End of their story, or so we thought.
Betty and I eventually both quit our jobs at the company as well, and lost touch for about a year. We then found each other on MySpace and became sort-of friends again. Nothing very involved, just occasional messages (like, once or twice a month) to say hi and hope you’re well, et cetera.
Fast forward to a few weeks ago. I get a message from Sally reminding me that she and Betty are “mortal enemies” and asking if I had ever talked to Betty about her or her husband. I hadn’t, which I told her. I knew that there was bad blood between them, so there was no way I would jeopardize my friendship with Sally by talking to Betty about her. It turns out that Betty had found Sally’s MySpace page through mine, and started up her old antics. She had emailed Sally’s husband again, asking him how he was feeling because I’d told her he was sick (the hell?), telling him that Sally had threatened her and physically abused her when they were friends, and that she wanted to be with him. I know: weird and creepy. While it irks me that I was drawn into this, I didn’t confront Betty with it, because I hate the whole “she said you said that I said blah blah blah” and I have a feeling that she was just trying to get Sally mad at me, or vice versa. So I assured Sally that I’d never do something like that to hurt her, and I let it drop.
Now Sally, who I used to hear from several times a week, will not respond to any of my messages, except for an email saying that Betty is a nutjob and she can’t believe I’m friends with her. I’ve told Sally that I have never said so much as a word about her to Betty, and sympathized with her situation, but I can’t help but get the feeling that Sally holds me responsible for this. I’m of the opinion that, while it sucks that Sally has to deal with this, Betty could have found her without my help, and really, it’s none of Sally’s business who I’m friends with if I’m not trash-talking behind her back.
So my question is this: Am I being reasonable here, in refusing to participate in the drama? Or am I being cold and heartless by not sucking it up and apologizing for being friends with someone Sally doesn’t like?
Thanks for the help,
Trying to be the adult here
Dear Adult,
Okay, in theory, no, one friend should not get to dictate whether you remain in contact with another friend, or require you to apologize for doing so; not everyone gets along, and it’s babyish to ask you to pick sides.
But in practice, I think your response here is a bit disingenuous, because Betty is a proven nutcake whom you suspect of trying to disrupt your friendship with Sally — why would you stand on principle in this case? I mean, I wouldn’t apologize to Sally for anything either, because Betty’s behavior is Betty’s fault, not yours — but you’re not so much “refusing to participate in the drama” as you are willfully refusing to acknowledge that there even is any drama, which, given that Betty is clearly not well, is…kind of weird, honestly.
In other words, it’s not “cold and heartless,” exactly. It’s just…odd. It’s odd that, of all the things to be “irked” by in the situation, it’s getting put in the middle that bothers you and not, say, Betty’s totally off-the-rez behavior.
You’re applying a principle to a situation that doesn’t fit it. Get out of your head and deal with the actual people here.
Hey Sars,
Love your advice, love the site. Unfortunately, I’m writing not to lavish you with praise, but to ask for your advice:
I’m a sophomore at college. In my freshman year I was involved with a guy here at school. Long story short, he cheated on me, used me and continued to make me feel like crap for the entire year. He’d go long stretches of time without talking to me, only to contact me for selfish reasons, ignoring my own needs and emotions. I know, I know, fool me once and shame on you, fool me twice and shame on me. I got over him and came to school this year wanting to start a college existence that had absolutely nothing to do with him.
This plan, however, did not work — campus safety contacted me and asked me to answer some questions about him and our time together. It turns out he’d been accused of sexually assaulting a student here, and they wanted to know if he’d ever been sexually violent with me, or if I had reason to think he’d hurt anyone else. I told the campus safety officer that he’d never done anything of the sort to me, and I didn’t think he’d hurt someone, but then I didn’t really know him anymore, either. To complicate matters, his accuser was a girl I knew from several classes and was a good friend of a friend. I didn’t want to think this girl would lie about something like this because I liked her, but I also didn’t want to think this guy was capable of sexual assault. I did my best to explain this, and in the end I asked campus safety to leave me out of the matter completely because it made me feel uncomfortable.
I was hoping this would be the end of it, but it wasn’t. After some time, the guy contacted me for the first time in months, asking me to be a character witness at his judicial hearing. I refused because of the awkward situation — through my classes, I was becoming friends with his accuser, and I had far too conflicted feelings on the subject to lean either way. He said he had several other witnesses to speak on his behalf, so I didn’t feel obligated to get involved. He was found guilty and expelled from school. He asked me to write a letter on his behalf for his appeal, which I initially refused because I still felt uncomfortable getting involved. He went on about how his life was ruined and that he knew how he treated me was shitty, but he didn’t deserve to get thrown out of school because I wouldn’t help him. He basically has the ability to contact me out of nowhere and make me feel like shit; it puts me right back to what a mess I was over how badly he treated me freshman year. I began to feel guilty and caved. I wrote the letter. His appeal was unsuccessful. Later, I found out that my roommates, who saw how upset he’d made me, contacted campus safety and said I’d been convinced to write the letter under emotional manipulation and distress and asked that it not be used in his appeal.
He’s recently contacted me and brought the situation up again, insinuating that not only did I not help him enough, I even lied to make him look worse out of spite. This hurts because it is not how I saw the situation at all — in fact I desperately hope he wasn’t guilty because just the thought of someone I liked being capable of raping someone has made me question my own judgment and distrust myself and others constantly. I’ve found that since all this, I have a really hard time opening up, especially with guys. If I like someone, I talk myself out of it or sabotage my chances out of fear that I’ll end up with another guy capable of something so disgusting. He has made me feel like I owe him something, but I don’t see how I can help him, especially given I’m not completely sure of his innocence.
My friends all say I shouldn’t listen but I have to wonder — should I have been a character witness when he asked, and since I know my letter on his behalf was ignored, do I have some duty to follow up on this? I keep telling myself I had nothing to do with his expulsion. I want to think both the best of him and of his accuser, yet I know those two scenarios cannot simultaneously exist. And if this isn’t my problem, which is what all my friends say, how do I stop thinking about it, get passed it, and get to the point where I can trust guys and my feelings for them again?
Not So Sure
Dear Not So,
This isn’t really about guys. This is about you, and the fact that you don’t trust yourself to do the right thing — which, for the record, I think you did, at least initially. But then he called and started guilting you, and wouldn’t let up, and you caved and wrote the letter for him, and now he’s still all over you for helping to ruin his life, and you’re buying it, and this is the crux of your issue, to wit: Why are you still taking this guy’s calls?
Seriously. Caller ID: get it, and use it. Cut him out of your life. Go to a counselor and talk about why you feel obligated to help someone out of a jam that has nothing to do with you — why you would take on this responsibility for his life when he’d done nothing to earn it, and in fact had done just the opposite by, basically, harassing you into doing him a favor. Why your friends would go behind your back and overrule you on this decision. Why you couldn’t just say, “No, I won’t be getting involved,” and stick to that.
You can’t open up to guys because you don’t trust yourself. You let yourself be manipulated by this guy, repeatedly; you still aren’t willing to see that, the truth of the accusations entirely aside, he’s an entitled asshole who uses you. You still take his calls.
Enough. You do not need this aggro in your life, and you need to start believing that so that you don’t find yourself buffeted by a situation like this again. Find a therapist who can help you identify what you want and what you think is right, and act on it with confidence, because you really can’t get into a good, trusting, happy relationship until you have any sort of faith in yourself and your instincts, and right now, you clearly don’t. And you should; you deserve to.
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette friendships
