The Vine: March 27, 2013
I’m on the brink of turning thirty-one years old. As much as I claim to be a misanthrope I’m actually super-duper nice to about 99% of the people I encounter. A lot of them happen to be male. I don’t consider myself to be coquettish at all (although my boyfriend disagrees — he thinks I’m a flirt but I swear I’m just being nice) and I have even taken steps to assure that I look as unattractive as possible to members of the opposite sex (lip ring, septum piercing, wearing big fake hipster glasses even though my vision is just fine) just to avoid men drawing the conclusion I’m about to ask about.
I am not a babe or a ten or even conventionally good-looking. I’m average-looking, I suppose, maybe a bit quirky. I’m not like offensively unfortunate-looking, I guess. I don’t have a huge rack or beautiful ass that would make men want to rain on it. So please, O Wise and Powerful Sars (and readers) please help me figure out this puzzle and great mystery of life because I’ve come up with no logical conclusions on my own.
Why is it that if a woman is nice or polite to a man the dude automatically thinks she wants to bang him? Do all guys just have an agenda of banging chicks and mistake kindness for flirtation and think if a woman so much as asks them for the time that means they are sexually interested in them?
So far I’ve only been able to chalk it up to their inflated egos and out-of-whack sense of self. Kind of along the lines of, “Don’t flatter yourself, dude.”
What is up with this? Why do men make the assumption that if a woman utters a word to them it’s a signal saying that they’re DTF? It may sound dumb but this is a serious question.
Boys Never Stop Being Confusing, Even In Your Thirties
Dear Confusing,
You understand that, by generalizing about “a man,” “automatically,” “all guys,” etc., you’ve just done to the entire gender what you resent their doing to you — right? That not all guys do this, and that it’s just as unfair to classify them all as walking boners as it is for them to hit on you when it’s unwanted?
Just in case: I don’t know “what’s up with” it because it’s…not the case. Some men assume that idle chit-chat means you want to ride the mustache; most don’t. Some men see any interaction with a woman as a means to a pink end; most don’t. Sometimes people hit on you and you don’t return the sentiment, but it’s not per se sexist or meant to make your life harder — it’s just getting hit on. Accept that it’s happening, work in a mention of your boyfriend ASAP, and unless it’s going on at your job or making you feel unsafe, remember that you don’t have to care about it and…don’t care about it.
You might also consider that, if this really is going on constantly, and if your boyfriend insists that what you think of as “super-duper nice” or rigorously polite is in fact reading more like “interested and available,” it’s time to tweak your interpersonal presentation. Don’t interpret this as “noooo, you’re the problem”; it’s a matter of what’s the common denominator, and also of it being a problem, i.e., this state of affairs is making you unhappy so it’s time to contemplate a change. Try pulling back from “super-duper nice” to “regular nice.” Ask your boyfriend and/or other friends to observe your interactions with strangers for a few days or a week and see if they can find instances where what you thought of as “polite” looked to them like “flirting.” Again, it’s not about blame; this is an issue in your life, so you should address it.
But indicting half the population as creepers isn’t going to change anything. The vast majority of men, of people, just want to make connections with other humans. Don’t turn it into something icky, because there’s plenty of that to go around already.
Tags: boys (and girls)
Some men assume that idle chit-chat means you want to ride the mustache
Can I get that on a t-shirt?
Two things.
First, Jack’s right–that Sars quote needs to be a t-shirt!
Second, I wonder if this is coming from the LW’s point of view or from her boyfriend. It seems a bit extreme to me to have “taken steps to assure that I look as unattractive as possible to members of the opposite sex (lip ring, septum piercing, wearing big fake hipster glasses even though my vision is just fine)” to avoid attention from guys.
Sorry, but who pierces their lip and septum just to avoid being hit on? (And what’s the basis for why would that work?) I wonder what else is going on here–whether low self-esteem that triggers an unconscious need for attention or a misinterpretation by the LW or her boyfriend.
Do you have a good friend (male or female, I don’t think it matters) who can give you an honest opinion on your interactions with other men (or just people in general)? You only mention your boyfriend claiming you flirt all the time, so I think it’s time for a second opinion. I got the “my boyfriend accuses me of hitting on other men, so I deliberatly make myself look unattractive and talk self-deprecatingly about my looks all the time to make my boyfriend feel better,” vibe. I may be way off base.
I have even taken steps to assure that I look as unattractive as possible to members of the opposite sex … just to avoid men drawing the conclusion I’m about to ask about.
Really? If that’s not hyperbole, it’s rather troubling. To the extent you are actually styling yourself to be unattractive so that men don’t hit on you, I think you need to take a huge step back and think about a few things. First, you gotta be you in whatever way makes you happy. If that means you pierce your whole face and wear glasses so hipster they make American Apparel models gag, good for you. If those things are just for (anti-)show and aren’t actually floating your boat, dude, take them off and look the way you really want to look. Don’t give hypothetical skeeves so much power over you, you know?
Second, it doesn’t help. People who are going to respond to whatever it is you’re putting out there and try to get something going are going to do so whether you’re trying to ward them off with Hermione Hipsterface or not. Not all men, as Sars wisely notes, but the ones who are going to hit on you? Don’t care about your glasses.
I don’t know what the guys in question are doing/saying to prompt this question, so forgive me if I’m totally off-base here, but is it possible that they’re just…being super-duper nice back to you? I feel like the issue you’ve identified here is something that *can* be a two-way street. That is, you act friendly, they act friendly, you read their friendliness as major flirting that they’d love to take to the zippers-down stage, and assume they’re doing it because that’s what they’ve read into your behavior. Does that make sense? Again, I could be totally wrong here, but it’s something to think about alongside Sars’ suggestion to get clues from your boyfriend and friends about their take on how you present yourself.
I don’t want to jump all over Confused’s perspective, but since there are no details about the interactions themselves, there’s also the possibility that the responses she’s getting from the men are not necessarily hitting-on oriented.
The reason I point this out: I had (emphasis on “had”) a friend who complained about being hit on incessantly, so when she talked to men, she went in with the assumption that they would hit on her, because they “always” did. Every smile she got, including the “hello, fellow citizen desiring to know the time of day” smiles, went into the “Did you see that creep hitting on me?” pile.
Of course, Confused might have an unfortunately large proportion of creeps in her area, but Sars’ awesome suggestion to have the interactions observed by third parties would be pretty helpful, I think.
I’m not sure exactly how to verbalize this correctly, but the fact that you’ve gotten two piercings seemingly just to dissuade guys from hitting on you seems a bit odd. Dressing frumpy or acting disinterested is one thing, but punching holes in your face seems a bit extreme if it’s only being done as a boy-repellent, unless I’m reading that bit incorrectly.
I’ll also point out that many guys find piercings attractive so trying to use them as a boy-repellent won’t usually be successful.
“Hermione Hipsterface.” Now THAT, ladies and gents, is a shirt.
Also, what @Angharad and others have said. Have a quarter inch of hair did not deter anyone, dude or lady, from hitting on me. It just changed the stripe of hitter-onner (sp?) somewhat.
Okay, I have to think one of two things is going on here:
1. You are sending out more ‘interested’ vibes than you think;
2. You’re not actually being hit on as much as you think.
People have suggested means of testing both possibilities, so try working out which one it is. I mean, I get it. I get a bit sick of being hit on in coffee shops and pubs, so I’m polite but reserved up ’til the guy gets pushy, and then he gets the No Freakin’ Way treatment, but that’s hardly every dude – just a certain proportion of male strangers. My male co-workers, for instance, hardly ever hit on me. (Rimshot!) It’s a pain in the ass, it can be unpleasant and uncomfortable, but you need better strategies for dealing with it than trying to metaphorically disfigure yourself so that men stop noticing you.
Saying you don’t like people but having them like you could make you feel powerful. This could use some thought.
I am wondering if you are naturally “super-duper-nice”. It seems like being extra nice is acting for people to really like you. That isn’t incompatible with claiming to be a misanthrope.
One important question is: How do you really feel about other people?
You probably like some, dislike some and are neutral on the rest. So not all people are going to like you. Accept that from the start and it’s easy to just be you. No need to try so hard to impress.
I would lose the glasses and any other accessories that you don’t like or need. Be yourself.
Being yourself, physically, mentally, conversationally, etc. (once you know what that is) is the easiest way to live.
Like others have said, definitely don’t change your appearance to match what you think other people won’t like. Especially since the piercings and glasses are both fairly “in” right now, or are at least less wild than they used to be. Depending on where you live, body mods would have to escalate to putting a giant spike in your forehead to be seriously off-putting. I’ve always liked gals with glasses, as a matter of fact, and a lot of my male friends do, too. So…can I get your number?
Kidding! Lisa Loeb still has first dibs on me. I know she has a family now, but I’m pretty sure she’ll respond to my letters.
It also may depend a little bit on the region you’re in and the region you’re from. Here in New England, if a guy I don’t know says more than two words to me and isn’t blatantly asking for money, my assumption generally *is* that he’s hitting on me (or trying to convert me to Scientology), because who the hell talks to strangers?
As I have pretty much zero interest in any of those dudes, my reaction is “Sorry, I’m reading,” or a similar nope-move-along response, *but* if someone who did look interesting started chatting, I might think he was hitting on me and ask for his number at the end of the conversation. (I wouldn’t go in for physical contact or make gross comments, of course, but you don’t specify what degree of “thinks she wants to bang him” we’re talking about here.) Because why else would he be talking to a stranger?
So if you’re from Iowa and just moved to Boston, you might be sending out more signals than you mean to. If you’re from Boston and just moved to Iowa, you might be receiving fewer than you think.
I agree that the whole “I am totally, completely average- to below-average-looking, and have made attempts to make myself less attractive, like, I’m serious, you guys, you don’t know how plain I am” bit seems quite odd. It’s also ironic, because, in order to not have to deal with bullshit from guys, the LW is giving in to a different kind of bullshit by obsessing over how men will look at/perceive her. My advice: Chill out, be yourself (even if that means being flirty, b/c that’s actually not a crime, and you’re not actually responsible for other people’s actions & reactions), and if you don’t like the way a guy’s treating you, tell him to shove off.
OK, so this was touched on by a few other people but it jumped out at me too. When you say being friendly always results in being hit on how do you define ‘being hit on’? Are these guys just responding in friendly kind? I mean,really, most normal humans are going to respond to friendly banter with friendly banter, not gruff nods or get-away-from-me sneers. Also, if they did you’d be writing in asking why all men are rude assholes. Now, if they say, “It’s 2:30, can I have your number?” That’s different. But I have a feeling this isn’t what’s happening, I have a feeling guys are just being friemndly back. A good portion of them might be all “cool, this chic seems nice…” and might be seeing what’s up, but even that isn’t hitting on, it’s playing the numbers and seeing what happens and enjoying the company of a friendly person. There is nothing wrong with that as long as they are respectful. If they DO ask for your number and you say “Oh I have a boyfriend.” and they keep asking, that’s pervy and rude, but I have a feeling that really wouldn’t happen very often.
As far as the piercings and glasses, well, like others said, if you really are doing that to purposely look unattractive, there is an issue there. But also, here’s the thing, things like that make you stand out, not blend in, and a lot of people are drawn to that. You’re making yourself more unique, not ugly.
Honestly, I think the bigger issue is just that your boyfriend is uncomfortable with the fact you’re personable and approachable. As others pointed out you only mention him saying anything about this. Have a neutral third part weigh in and give you a real reality check about how often you are actually being actively flirted with (as opposed to the passive “hey! friendly girl! I’ll be friendly back!” social flirting)and how your behavior seems to come off to random strangers. If your boyfriend has an issue that you have the ability to talk to strangers, well, that may be something the two of you need to discuss. But honestly, like Sars said, don’t paint all boys witht he same brush. As often as you think “WTF, I was just being friendly” chances are the boy thinks the same thing when you get annoyed with being picked up on.
Or, if the LW is really committed to turning guys away from the get-go, she could go the route of Liz Lemon in this 30-Rock episode: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tuxedo_Begins
The following could be at play here:
– Confirmation bias: Not ALL guys are hitting on you, but you notice it when they do. Try to be aware of the other interactions, too (“ANOTHER SUCCESSFUL INTERACTION WITH A MAN!”)
– Sexy hipster look: As others have said, piercings and hipster glasses do not equal ugly. After getting pierced myself, I discovered that some guys even equate an alternative, piercey, tattoo-y look with sexual adventurousness, which is of course annoying and has no basis in reality, but it’s some people’s stereotype.
– Lack of (perceived) confidence: Inherent sexiness of piercings aside, I’ve noticed that guys seem to hit on me more (and more creepily) when I feel like I look my least conventionally “pretty.” Living in Brooklyn, in a neighborhood full of guys who’ve missed 20 years of feminism memos, I observed the following (admittedly possibly also subject to confirmation bias):
When I look put-together in a skirt or dress, heels, shiny hair, makeup: strange men of all ages, if they notice me, are more than usually polite, but in a nice way. They say “Hi!” or “Good morning, miss.”
When I look grungy in a men’s T-shirt and cargo pants, old sneakers or combat boots, short uncombed hair, greasy un-made-up face, just trying to buy milk: creeper guys sidle up to me asking what I’m doing later and if I have a boyfriend.
My theory is that when I look like I know what I’m doing and where I’m going and how to make myself look nice, I’m less approachable. When I look terrible, even if it’s because I chose to look that way or I don’t care how I look, people perceive this as a lack of self-confidence or self-care skills, and this makes me look like easy pickings.
It’s a cynical theory, admittedly, but it could explain why, generally, efforts to make yourself look bad may be having the opposite effect.
tl;dr You’ll get hit on sometimes no matter what you do. You have to dress and present yourself the way YOU want, and own that your choices are to please you, and not to please (or displease) anyone else. But no matter what kind of clothes or jewelry or makeup or glasses you choose, you’ll get a less shit (but not NO shit) if you seem confident and sure of yourself.
“As much as I claim to be a misanthrope I’m actually super-duper nice to about 99% of the people I encounter.”
“and I have even taken steps to assure that I look as unattractive as possible to members of the opposite sex (lip ring, septum piercing, wearing big fake hipster glasses even though my vision is just fine)”
Sounds like you spend a lot of time pretending to be something you’re not. That must be tiring, and it must make you pretty unhappy. Why don’t you stop?
“(although my boyfriend disagrees — he thinks I’m a flirt but I swear I’m just being nice)”
I don’t do well with people telling me what I am. Gently pointing out mistakes, telling me how someone else could misinterpret, fine. Telling me I’m something I know I’m not? Dude would be told to shut it, pronto.
Odd, I was just thinking about the issue this morning: rape culture — I know it’s an extreme term, bear with me — demands that a woman figure out what every other person in the universe thinks is “asking for it”, such that she can act accordingly. Examples from life: women cannot go jogging in those combo shorts-and-underwear things; women cannot wear spike heels; women cannot read Fifty Shades of Grey in public; women cannot be attractive. By doing or being any of these things, a woman is “asking for it”.
Yes, it’s garbage. No one ever asks to be violated, of course, rendering the above theory completely asinine; yet here we are: by extension, the woman who doesn’t want male attention shouldn’t be attractive. Otherwise, she’s “asking for it”. Well, hello, Confusing.
WHAT a LOAD of BULLSHIT aggro.
How can you possibly know what every guy in the world thinks is attractive, such that you can strive to not be that? Why would you waste time on trying to be something you’re not in order to avoid something you think might happen?
Sars is right. Guys are guys, and each one of them likes different things. The actual math is impossible, but there is necessarily a whole set of guys out there that would not find you attractive no matter what you pierced or wore or said. The same is true for me, and for Sars, and for every other person in the world. I think you’re reading waaaayyyy too much into other people’s behavior. It comes uncomfortably close to you seeming to think you’re omniscient. Yeah, no. And even if you could read other people’s minds, why care? You can’t bend yourself to fit everyone else’s expectations.
Maybe I’m the one reading too much into it, but I see a whole lot of fodder for counseling here.
Everyone else said everything I was thinking. But here’s my take.
1. The whole “I’m really not pretty, I swear I’m actually boring looking and I don’t get why guys like me” thing just strikes me as a little too much of a protest. I’m not sure exactly what strikes me as wrong about it, but I think it reminds me of when my gorgeous friend (blonde, blue-eyed, perfect skin, etc) looks at pictures from high school and says, “Man, I was so ugly,” when we all know every guy she knew WAS hitting on her. We were there.
2. Even if every guy you meet IS hitting on you … so? If they’re not being pushy or putting you at risk physically, flirting is OK.IF a guy is being crude, tell him to fuck off. But if he just tells you you have pretty eyes or he likes your tats, say “Thank you” and move on with your day. If he asks for a date, tell him you have a boyfriend. Most guys will leave you alone if you’re not available. Then again, and I know this sounds totally un-feminist, if the guy at the oil change place gives you better service than he gives the fat hairy dude who came in at the same time, thank him and enjoy that your car is running a bit better.
3. If you really are just being nice and your boyfriend is being an insecure jerk about it, that’s his problem. Even if all the guys ARE hitting on you, it doesn’t mean anything. You are with HIM. He needs to trust you. If he trusts you to come home to him and that your loyalties lie with him, that’s what should matter. If he freaks out every time another guy smiles at you, that’s kind of a red flag.
A few people have talked round it but I’m still curious: if your boyfriend wasn’t telling you there was a problem, would you think there was?
I might be oversensitive as a friend’s soon-to-be-ex husband is guilty of gaslighting – not that I think Boyfriend is doing anything that creepy, but something about the letter just doesn’t quite read right to me.
I hope I’m wrong.
My shrink says “you create what you expect.” She’s all woo-woo, so she means it in more of a “The Secret” way than I agree with. But when it comes to interpersonal interactions, I do buy that. There is so much scope for (perhaps subconsiously) selecting the interaction, guiding it and interpreting it that I do believe most people have (or believe they have) the interactions they expect.
My shrink, whom I am apparently channeling right now, would be asking why you have set up that expectation. What does it mean to you if you are a person that “all men” hit on? Is that a kind of validation that feels good? Is this expectation something you absorbed from your family life? Do your mom and sisters think this too? She (and I) would be looking inward. Not at “men” in general.
What’s the benefit of being super-duper nice? That’s not a rhetorical question, that’s something you should be thinking about. Especially if you’re the misanthrope you say you are (… nothing about your letter screams ‘I hate mankind’ to this reader, but whatevs), then your insistence on putting on super-duperosity is meant to be getting you something you want. That something might be a reaction, like reassurance that you’re not detestable.
If you don’t actually want what it’s getting you, well, dial it back to Pleasant-and-civilosity and see what that gets you.
I’d be interested to know how women react to your super-duper-niceness. Or are you not so super with them? If not, try modeling your behavior with women to that with men and see what happens.
I know this one! Patriarchy, rape culture, male entitlement.
Now, what to do about it in your own life – that’s more complicated. I’d start by backing off the universalizing rhetoric and work out how often you’re getting hit on (or told to smile, or catcalled, or any of the other microaggressive impositions women are told we should be grateful for), and whether the frequency is actually affected by either your appearance or your manner. Treat it as a research study. Once you’ve got some data, you’ll be in a better spot to make an action plan.
My own observations suggest that as long as you present as female, it doesn’t matter that you otherwise fail to meet the current beauty standards. Some dude will, sooner or later, creep all over you.
I’ve also observed that the sort of partner who insist that you talking to other people constitutes flirting, and is thus an occasion for jealousy, only gets more controlling and less reasonable over time. It is not in your best interests to humor him on this point.
What Isabel C. said. As a New Englander born and raised who’s currently living in Boston, if I guy I don’t know talks to me in a non-work or customer service situation I find it uncomfortable. It’s just Not Done around here. I’ve heard transplants from the South complain about how rude and cold we are, and while I think we are nice deep down, there is something to that perception. Us Yankees just tend to avoid conversing with strangers unless we want something from them.
I think Isabel C hit a good point with where this is happening. If you’re from Maine, any interaction beyond six words might be construed as flirting. In some areas of the south, you can’t go a block without extravagantly complimenting everyone you meet. A lot of it is just local culture. If you and/or your boyfriend are from an area where flirting is defined differently from where you currently live, the cognitive dissonance between your ingrained ideas and present location may be creating static.
But no matter what it is, it’s lazy to blame “all men” for something, and dishonest to your self to wear/act in ways that don’t reflect you. If you think your super-duper nice routine is the real you, that’s one thing. If you’re doing it because you have a deep seated need for approval even if you don’t want approval (or some such shrink-speak) that’s something to work on.
Well….I relate to the LW’s question. I don’t try to dress unattractively, but I am about as flirtatious as a rock, and have seriously freaking wondered why a fair chunk of dudes out there take my saying “Hi” to them as “Please fuck me.” I am not super smiley or friendly at total strangers, especially strange dudes, but it really does happen. There have been guys I barely spoke to once who’d start following me around like a puppy. I feel LW’s frustration because it seems like for all the “no, leave me alone, not gonna be into you” messages I try to send, more people than I am comfortable with ignore that stuff.
But apparently the answer to this one is well…scientific.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111213132001.htm
http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/14/9426089-the-hotter-the-woman-the-better-men-think-chances-are
Similar to the regional/local culture idea, I’m wondering if you work in the hospitality industry: bartender, waitstaff, concierge? My limited understanding of these fields is that women in these positions do tend to get hit on more often than in other professions. So that may be skewing your view of the larger population.
Beyond that, I think the rest of the nation as adequately covered the various issues in your letter.
While I suppose it is statistically possible for there to be one female in this country where every man she knows happens to be a douchebag..,, yeah, you’d have to be in the middle of a probability storm.
I agree with those who guess you are waaaaay over sensitized on this issue. Having been young and not-hideous in a profession where female to male ratios are about 1:20, I can tell you that it is unlikely that most guys are really hitting on you in any real way. However I can tell you that people, men included cause you know, they are human, do mirror their interlocutor a lot. So if you’re jokey, they will joke back. If you swear, they will swear back. If you are mousy quiet, they will dial it down. So I can’t help wondering if you are seeing some echo of your manner across a wide range of people, and for some reason comes across as a pass.
Obviously it is not entirely out of the question that you are really giving some super universally accepted signal of interest, such as really invading people’s personal space but surely somebody would have pointed this out to you.
As to tuning your appearance in the hope you won’t get hit on – good lord, what do you think is the worst thing that would happen if you were that causes you to go to such lengths? “Eh, yeah, no thanks” tends to work. It’s not a thought crime. And if you did want to fake your way out of the situation, just wear a band on your wedding finger and be done with it.
Everyone here has really good points (did you seriously pierce your septum to avoid being hit on??), but I do wanna say that what the LW says she’s observing is also something that has been observed by psychological researchers. Experiments aren’t perfect, yes, but they’re along the lines of a researcher having a very mundane interaction with a member of the opposite sex, and then another researcher asking the subject if s/he thought the researcher was flirting with him, and in those experiments, every time, guys are a lot more likely to interpret mundane conversations as flirting, even when they know the first female researcher is conducting an experiment. Not all guys, no, this isn’t some hard and fast rule — but it isn’t like, one single study with 9 people either; there’s a fair amount of documented evidence that LW has a point.
I think Lulu nailed it upthread twice over. Some guys might read the pierced look as counterculture and therefore sexually adventurous, so she might be getting a higher rate of flirting than the average Jane.
Secondly, the LW reads as incredibly insecure (trying to people-please with strangers and her boyfriend, getting body modifications to avoid romantic attention, going on about how non-extraordinary looking she is) and creeps WILL pick up on that, and get pushy with women who are “super-duper nice” and unassertive. So, again, she may be attracting a disproportionate amount of jerks.
I bet if she dressed in a way she liked, as opposed to what her boyfriend likes or what she thinks society does not like or whatever bizarre criteria she’s using, she’d look and feel more confident and the creeps who assume she’s a promiscuous doormat would fall away.
@pomme
Thanks for giving me the hilarious image of a literal promiscuous doormat.
I have some things to add, which generally echo what has already been said before:
1) I’ve noticed if I’m chatty and animated with random strangers, it unsurprisingly leads them to believe there could be something more in that interaction. Check, with a third party as mentioned above, whether your “nice-ness” is being misconstrued as something more.
2) At airports, when I’m eating by myself, the guy ballsy enough to approach me in a flirty manner is also nonchalantly dismissive of the wedding band I’m wearing. I guess part of it is we are all trapped in this airport and there’s a degree of desperation assumed by certain individuals who see other individuals traveling solo. Anyway, check what situation you are approached by flirts. It could be the environment.
3) I’ve also noticed if I look like crap (haven’t slept, done makeup or washed hair), two kinds of dudes are drawn out of the woodwork on public transit. One is the shady kind who thinks my self-esteem has gone so low that he could take advantage. These jerks often open with a diss-bate, like insulting me will somehow result in instant couple-dom. The second kind of guy that crosses personal boundaries feels the need to rescue a grody damsel in distress. Once on a crowded train this dude reached across and parted my bangs (???) on my forehead and said something faux-sensitive, I can’t remember what, to start a conversation and I was so completely hung-over and shocked/amazed that I just gaped and switched cars the next station. So. Is your low-maintenance perhaps drawing people in?
This is all assuming these guys are actually hitting on you. Like someone mentioned above, maybe review what you consider as being hit upon with a third party and make sure you’re not getting wires unnecessarily crossed.
“I have even taken steps to assure that I look as unattractive as possible to members of the opposite sex … just to avoid men drawing the conclusion I’m about to ask about.”
Oh, honey …. No. No. And in case I forgot? NO.
Never change your appearance for any reason other than to please yourself.
I think a lot of posters have put it way better than I could; I’m just going to say that, having grown up in New York City, I learned early on that you’re either going to be a target (the woman all the creepy guys find and hit on and intimidate) or you’re going to make them wish they’d never been born (I’m being extreme, I know. I learned this after the same extremely creepy man followed me and chased me around my own neighborhood when I was an overweight, pimply, greasy-haired pre-teen – TWICE; I learned this when the creepy parking lot attendants hit on me (same age range … imagine how that makes an insecure 12 year old feel), etc.
Years later when a persistent security guard didn’t give up fast enough, we had the following exchange:
Him: “What happened to that boyfriend of yours?”
Me: (Bear in mind that I had no boyfriend, we’d never discussed it, he was always making weird comments) “He pissed me off one time too many. He’s buried in the basement. Why?”
He never bothered me again.
I thought it was *weird* that you say you go out of your way to look unattractive and then referenced your hipster-style. You hardly went to the piercing parlor with the intention to uglify yourself, so: no, you are not “helping the problem” by wearing glasses or having piercings.
If instead, you’d said you wear clothing that’s not tight, looks professional, and you always make sure not to show cleavage, that might be different. As it stands, your not having a “hot body” doesn’t necessarily make you undesirable. So, the first thing is to accept that men are interested in you, with the body and style you have – and it doesn’t really matter whether you understand that.
Because you interact with men more than women, I have to assume you are involved with some kind of male “dominated” career or college major. Since I work in a field like this, perhaps I can shed some light for you on “why” guys are reading into your friendliness. There are a few reasons.
First, if you’re in your 20s, men around that age are more likely to focus on a girl they like and invent a sort of fantasy that you feel the same way (and that no other girl will do). It’s common but it’s not something all guys do. Second, if you’re legitimately one of the only girls around a whole bunch of guys, odds dictate more of them will be interested in you. Third, most male dominated careers don’t afford a lot of opposite sex interaction. The “nerdy guys with social issues” is certainly rooted in some truth – but again, not for everyone. So… there’s the why.
Now, what should you do about it? Well, I believe you that it’s not about getting their attention, but that you’re just trying to be nice. But you are going to have to accept that (1) guys you’re interacting with like you, and (2) you actually are encouraging them by being nice to them. I think most of us can agree that men are generally not great at “reading signs,” so it’s common for them to think that friendly chatting – complete with eye contact, smiling, laughing at their jokes – can read as showing interest in them.
Mentioning your boyfriend is a good idea, but it might not accomplish anything if the guy thinks you’re interested in him anyway. I actually suggest shortening your interactions with guys and being clear about your boundaries. Personally, I pointedly avoid hugging (or any physical contact) with guys – and will clearly state this if needed. When I realize a guy is interested in me, I will greatly tone down my interactions with them. If you’re bad at gauging this, you might ask a female friend for input. Better yet, hang around with a friend you know is not interested as a sort of wing-person cock-blocker.
Bottom line: you can still be nice and have a 1 minute conversation instead of a 5 minute conversation.
Wow! Am I the only woman not getting hit on? I’m at least moderately attractive (have had my fair share of boyfriends, men have asked me out) but I have been hit on in public maybe 10 times in my 35 years, and I have lived in NY, LA and San Francisco. I tend to think people are just being friendly and never jump to flirting. In fact, I have far more flirty/friendly conversations with women (straight, no sexual vibe) strangers than men. Like Jo, I take with a grain of salt any claims by a (non-supermodel) woman that ALL men hit on her. I have many pretty friends and not one has ever complained that men are always flirting with them.
The education I get reading your blog, Sars. I’ve never heard those euphamisms for the act of sexual intercourse! Nevertheless, I don’t think I’d wear them on a T-shirt.
I am also considered “overly friendly” by people. My mother termed it “Never met a stranger”. 7 years working in Center City Philly almost changed that. I’m back to smiling and wishing every one a good day. Those that take it as something more than friendly, they find out otherwise quickly.
I think others have addressed a lot of the issues in the letter, but I will jump in on one thing: The concept of being a freak magnet. This is the term one of my best friends coined for me, so I know it wasn’t just me assuming that weirdos were seeking me out when they were really just making friendly conversation. It doesn’t happen so much now that I’m middle-aged and married but, here’s what I’ve found, for what it’s worth:
It doesn’t matter if you’re “hot” or not. In my 20s I could be best described as a chubby goth/punk. (Ahh, the ’90s.) But still, I was the girl some guy would corner at a club to tell his entire sad life story to. I’ve had creeper dudes try to follow me home. Friends would intervene and tell dudes to piss off on my behalf. So the whole piercing thing? Doesn’t matter. Geek glasses, clunky boots, oversized sweater? Ditto. If you’re doing all that because you dig the look (which I did), awesome, go with it. If you’re doing it because you think it will discourage the dudes? Don’t bother, wear what you like.
If all the women around you are working the thousand-mile stare and you actually look people in the eye and smile, this can easily be taken for an invitation buy a certain type of “jump at the chance” guy. Again, not every guy, but probably enough to make you feel a little weird. You have to practice how to cut off the interaction. Or learn the thousand-mile stare while standing in line waiting for coffee.
Speaking for myself, I think I was just insecure enough that certain men felt a) I was not intimidating and therefore they had a shot, because I wasn’t sending out “die, motherfucker” signals, and/or b) like I was chubby and plain enough that I couldn’t afford to be “picky” and therefore I’d be an easy one-nighter. Both of which were bullshit, but that’s the impression I had at the time. This may not apply to the letter-writer, but her protestations of not-hotness raise a flag there.
With all that said, every dude doesn’t hit on every woman, and if you feel like they *all* are, then I’d agree with the others that maybe your interpretation of being “hit on” is a little more broad than it needs to be. But chat with a friend or two and see if they think you fall into the “freak magnet” camp. If so, you can learn a few strategies to discourage them — and if not, then let the boyfriend know he can lay off the jealousy. (Which he should do anyway, because even if you attract freaks it doesn’t mean you’ve done anything wrong.)
Also adding to the “it really doesn’t matter how you dress” crew. I got asked for my number some years ago while wearing a friend’s sweatpants and flannel shirt. Said friend is six feet tall and fairly muscular; I’m 5’2 and skinny. Hobo comparisons were copious. I was wearing said clothing because I’d crashed at the friends’ place and it was unexpectedly cold, so I also hadn’t showered, and I was going through a kitchen full of rotten dishes that dude’s roommates (and probably dude, though he denied it) had left there.
(The last part may not have been an actual turn-off: as friends later speculated, dude’s internal monologue may have gone “Hey, this girl can clean!”)
The kind of guy who macks on strange women is going to mack on strange women no matter what they’re wearing. He’s That Guy; avoid him, pray for his fiery death, and don’t use him to generalize about other men.
Judy: I was wondering the same thing. I’m a little chubby and I have zero fashion sense, but I think I have a pretty face and I have nice boobs. But yet … I seem to be the only one here not always being hit on. Have I shown a little cleavage to talk my way out of speeding tickets I totally deserved? Sure. Have I had creepy guys ask for my number after talking to me for 30 seconds? Maybe 5 times in my life (I’m 32). I don’t really count interactions in bars because the guys are drunk and so many people go to bars looking to hook up, although if I’m being honest, I’ve been hit on (by men) at gay bars way more often than anywhere else.
I’m engaged now and wear a fake wedding band along with my engagement ring (Long story), so that seems to act as a shield, but honestly, I can’t even remember the last time I was actually hit on by a stranger before I was engaged. Maybe what I have the opposite problem as some of the women and the LW and what interpret as men just being nice is actually being “hit on.”
Maybe this is regional — there are quite a few posters on the East Coast who have said they get hit on a lot or attract creepers. I’ve lived in the Northwest my entire life. It’s not at all unusual to talk to strangers on the street here, and people don’t seem to have a problem making eye contact when we pass on the street. So it’s not the slightest bit strange for a strange guy to talk to me and be friendly. I’m pretty extroverted and I like to meet new people, so I probably attract similar personalities. I wonder if it’s possible that the same behavior in the Northwest that I interpret as friendliness because it’s “normal” would be considered “being hit on” somewhere where people are more reserved. I did spend one summer living in Washington, D.C., and found myself really confused about how to behave when I passed people on the street, because it was clear that making eye contact and saying hello wasn’t the thing to do, but it feels weird to intentionally avoid eye contact.
I am kind of amazed by how many people are answering this as “… really? That many guys? you are way over estimating this..”
I know a few women who really do get all the harassment going. Who knows what it is. It’s not usually related to how they score on the conventionally-attractive scale, and I think both the OP and the commenters are probably making a mistake in thinking that it is. It’s also not clear (and perhaps the OP doesn’t know which it is) whether it’s a lot of random but otherwise decent guys asking you out, or whether you’ve unfortunately got whatever the thing that attracts dicks is.
OP, I think it’d be good to practise some “no thanks” answers. Something that’s polite but leaves no room for error, and which requires a minimum of energy or patching-up on your part. What’s infuriating about this stuff is the way coming up with polite refusals wears you out. So finding a standard emotion-free way of doing it saves you a lot of energy.
Plus, the way someone responds to “no thanks” tells you a lot about their intentions. Polite, “ops, sorry, I’ll leave you alone to read”? Good guy. “F off then, you stuck up birch”? Dick. It might be useful for you to know which side of the line the guys who are approaching you fall.
MizShrew makes many excellent points. Learn that thousand-yard stare if you (not your boyfriend) want to reduce male attention. Better still, try channelling Anna Wintour, particularly in the eyebrow department.
Or, if it suits you better, keep being warm and friendly, be assertive when you want to say ‘no’, and don’t worry if you do get hit on every so often.
After a while I chose the Anna Wintour approach, because it made me furious that some men would push for attention after I’d been clear I didn’t want to give it. Sad, because I can’t get to know strangers in a nice friendly way, but the end result is that I want to punch men in the face far less often.
Become a lawyer – all of your coworkers will live with a hearty and healthy fear of a harassment lawsuit, and you will develop a certain cold stoniness to your eyes that will never vanish no matter how much you smile.
Seriously, just want to back up the chorus of “don’t sweat it unless it’s bothering you.” And if it’s bothering you, tell that person in no uncertain terms to leave, and if he won’t, notify the nearest security guard/police officer/taser-wielding friend/generally large-muscled-person. Judge your interactions solely based on whether you enjoy them or not. If you don’t, end it. If you do, fine. No need to label it as anything.
(Also: word to the others who aren’t getting hit on. Apparently in my case, the ring cancels out the long blonde hair? or perhaps aformentioned steely gaze?)