Hello, Joe, whaddya know
(“We need a hit, so here I go“)
So, Torre is out as manager of the Yankees. Miss Alli and Joe R and I talked about it briefly at the office today, and I said it seemed pretty clear to me that the team made Torre an offer they knew he’d refuse, because firing him outright instead would have been a PR nightmare. That’s shitty. It’s also shitty if he’s getting pushed out because he hasn’t led the team to a ring recently; he won a whole cluster of them, let’s not forget, with a way younger team. Let’s not forget either that the ’07 Yankees sucked for two months. Sucked. Torre doesn’t deserve sole credit for their turnaround, of course — it’s a whole salad of things, like career years from Rodriguez and Posada, the temporary removal of ongoing distraction Giambi, the mental boosts from the acquisition of Clemens and the promotion of Joba, Cabrera repeatedly making opposing teams pay for testing his arm, so on and so forth.
But imagine what it’s like to run that team. It isn’t Little League; you can’t just yell at the guys and make them run line drills. You have to show these guys respect, but make them respect you, all while dealing with, and answering the stupidest damn questions on God’s green earth about, Giambi and steroids; A-Rod and the fans; A-Rod and his wife; A-Rod’s 500th home run; A-Rod’s alleged chokiness; what’s wrong with Mussina; do you think Steinbrenner is going to fire you; on and on and on. Torre is fantastic at that, and he should get some credit, at least, for keeping the team from disappearing up its own asshole around Memorial Day.
He’s not so good, I don’t think, at handling a pitching staff, and it’s driven me nuts for six years now, but if Cashman isn’t going to get rid of Farnsworth in favor of someone who can throw the kinds of strikes major-leaguers can’t hit? Not a lot Torre can do. The starters can’t get out of the fifth? Not a lot Torre can do.
I think the franchise’s love affair with its own history gets in the way of making good decisions for the team. I see hopeful signs, signs that Cashman, or someone, is beginning to understand that you can’t put a dozen guys in their mid-thirties on the roster and get championship results, but I don’t think there’s a team in baseball or any other sport less able to accept that sometimes you have a down year. Or two. Or five. Or that coming back from a not-even-thoroughly-bad-enough-to-be-amusing April and May to threaten for the division title and snag a wild-card spot is not really “a down year” in the first place.
In other words, yes, it’s probably time for Torre to move on. We’re into diminishing returns here. But it’s a shame that it’s almost certainly for the wrong reasons, that the front office gave him a needle and thread and told him to fix the toilet, which he did, and then they were like, “Um, this toilet doesn’t poach eggs, Joe.”
I wouldn’t wish this shit on anyone, much less Donnie Baseball, but I guess someone’s got to do it. Heh.
In conclusion, two things. 1) Thanks, Mr. Torre. Walking around the city the night the Yankees won the World Series in ’96 is one of my happiest memories. The whole island was a big block party. I didn’t agree with some of your decisions over the years (Felix Heredia), but you gave me lots to talk about for 12 years (Felix Heredia), you ran great teams out onto the field (except for Felix Heredia), and October of 2001 must have been the hardest gig you ever worked. That’s good work; be proud. (But not of Felix Heredia. That’s Mrs. Heredia’s problem.)
2) At times like this, I wish there were a formal designation in English to distinguish between the Yankee fans who only give a crap about winning, and the rest of us. I get the feeling it’s the first group that influences some of the choices the Yankee brass make, and I like it fine when the team wins, but mostly, I just like it when the team plays. Plays baseball. Because that’s the point.
Also, love this piece about a potential Torre replacement interviewing with KC: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3069833
Dude used to manage the Nippon Ham Fighters. I have been looking for an NHF t-shirt for AGES, people!
Is it bad that my initial reaction is that maybe he’ll come and manage the Phillies now?
…not that I’m ungrateful to Charlie or anything. But. I’d kinda like a manager I could take seriously.
hahahahaha Felix Heredia. He was the Cubs’ problem for what seemed like 10 years. I feel you on that one.
Hey Anne-Cara, hands off! ;) We want him back down here!!! Says the Braves fan who has been carrying a torch for the man since 1984. God I’m old.
Sars I know exactly what you mean about the fans. It’s the reason I always respect your views on baseball. :)
Y’know, as a lifelong Red Sox fan, I have to say I’m both relieved and outraged that Torre’s gone. I don’t remember the pre-Torre Yankees; I don’t remember the last time the Sox won the division. So in that sense it’s nice to have done away with The Enemy. But part of me is also having that “HOW COULD THEY?!” reaction, interrobang included, because it feels a bit like firing Jim Lehrer from his own damn Newshour.
At times like this, I wish there were a formal designation in English to distinguish between the Yankee fans who only give a crap about winning, and the rest of us.
Man, I hear that. Not about the Yankees – I read your baseball columns mostly because I’m curious about the game but don’t even slightly understand it – but about other sports I follow. My favourite team in all fields is the Australian cricket team. I grew up following them, cared about them back before the Border turnaround, when they sucked every which way and couldn’t buy a win.
These days? It’s been the best part of fifteen years that they’ve dominated the game, so the buildup of We Love Them When They Win bandwagon assholes is huge, but they don’t know shit about the game and keep clamouring for bad decisions when one tiny thing goes wrong, even if the team hasn’t lost a match in over a year, and the roaring masses killed the career of my favourite ever player. So much hate.
Yeah, this is bullshit. I’m not a Yankees fan, but I hate to see a guy get jerked around like this, like it’s petty office politics. I hate seeing individuals get blamed for a team’s failures but not credited with its victories. And you know, I really hate the folks who always act like the Yankees are losing to themselves, somehow, as if there were no outside factors and the other team didn’t exist. Oh, the Yankees lost the division twice in a row, it MUST be Torre’s fault because he didn’t take this same bunch of creaky roidy guys he always has and turn them into a magical unstoppable team, and A-Rod didn’t hit a grand slam every time he was up, and so forth. Um, guys? It’s fine that you want to work out the kinks in your team and all, but you also might try blaming the teams that beat you. I know it’s hard to believe, but the Central Division does exist. You see us in baseball movies sometimes.
(I know you’re not like this. I’ve just been annoyed for a couple years by the “Tigers? Indians? Who they?” business by sportswriters who’ve been busy drooling all over the Yanks/Sox rivalry. Now everybody’s whining that the Series this year will be booooring, because who cares about the stupid Rockies and Indians… oh, they’re right, it’s not like anybody actually lives in the flyover states.)
Basically, you can’t blame a guy for not winning when you give him players that aren’t as good as the guys other teams have. This really ought to be elementary, but I guess the management has this idea that THE YANKEES should be winning games even if they’ve got, like, the guys from the grounds crew playing and Neifi Perez batting cleanup. Joe and A-Rod should just go off and start their own baseball team for guys who don’t get no respect. That Fire Joe Morgan guy could write you up a good roster, I think.
Is it bad that my first thought was, “Torre? Fired? Maybe the Os can win a game or two this year.”
“the Central Division does exist. You see us in baseball movies sometimes”
Heh. Seriously. And in the World Series twice in the last three years.
I said it before, I’ll say it again: the Yankees had an exciting season, it was fun to follow, and the turnaround is something to be proud of. But they didn’t have to face CC and Fausto during the season, and it’s a three-game series. This guy in the elevator at work gave me some chaff for not supporting the Yanks when I said Cleveland would win the ALDS, and it made me tired — of course I SUPPORT them, chiefy, but I also support my friend Mr. Reality, and our ace is a DP pitcher. Wang is awesome; Wang is not Sabathia. Next.
“the management has this idea that THE YANKEES should be winning games even if they’ve got, like, the guys from the grounds crew playing and Neifi Perez batting cleanup”
If by “playing” you mean “pitching,” and by “cleanup” you mean “third,” and you pronounce “Neifi Perez” “Bobby Abreu”? No “if” about it, missy. Welcome to May ’07 in the Bronx. You would not believe the volume of Catskills shit the Couch Baron and I got out of the roster at that point.
“Who’s tonight’s starter? Your mom?”
“Can’t be, my mom’s a northpaw. And…too young.”
I do agree with the thinking that Torre’s best skill was managing to stay calm in the face of Georgie, and deflecting much of that tension and drama away from his players.
That said, he will always have a place in my heart thanks to 1996. Best night in NYC ever.
“the Central Division does exist. You see us in baseball movies sometimes”
It’s funny you said that, because I came into the living room to find my husband watching “For the Love of the Game” the other day, which I have never seen but kinda wanted to. And there’s Costner in a TIGERS jersey! “Wait, his character plays for the Tigers?!” “Uh, yes, you didn’t know that?” “No! They made a movie about a Tiger player? Like recently?!”
“the management has this idea that THE YANKEES should be winning games even if they’ve got, like, the guys from the grounds crew playing and Neifi Perez batting cleanup”
HA! :-D Stupid Neifi.
go Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters!
Torre’s possible replacement isn’t quite finished managing the Fighters since they’ve made it to the Japan Series which starts in a week. In Sapporo this morning major department stores were handing out packages of ham to the first several hundred customers in honour of yesterday’s victory.
Gotta love it…
This site has a shirt from the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighter’s 2006 Pacific League Championship http://www.yakyushop.net
On another note, that bit about the toilet and the poached eggs had me choking on my soda.
I can forgive Neifi a lot if I don’t think about his salary or his batting average and just think about that great catch he made to preserve Verlander’s no-hitter.
And, I mean, yes to Torre. It seems like managers don’t do much sometimes – Ozzie Guillen is kind of crazy and the White Sox had some darned awesome pitching in 2005 for example – but Torre seemed like he had all the rough parts of the job in triple being in New York. With the YANKEES!!!!!1!!!!
Bright side for Sars and all Yankees fans: some idiots (oh, man, I weep for my 2nd favorite team, oh, Homer Bailey, you once had a chance to be an ace but now) already hired Dusty Baker. You’re all (and Joba and Phillip Hughes) safe from that nightmare.
I agree with Anna up there – I was born and raised in Boston, and thus remain a Sox fan to. the. CORE. (I’m even wearing a Sox shirt right now in celebration of their win last night!)
But I still have room in my bitter, shriveled little heart for the class act that is Joe Torre. That they didn’t man up and let Torre go and instead just made Torre fire himself? That’s ass.
I’m from Boston, and therefore a Sox fan. And I absolutely adore Torre, and think the way he was treated was completely ridiculous. I hope he keeps managing somewhere, just so that I can keep adoring him from afar.
Anna – that “because it feels a bit like firing Jim Lehrer from his own damn Newshour.” is so true. As one friend texted me yesterday “End of an era. Better dig up Billy Martin.”
Now some of my nearest and dearest are Sox fans and I love them regardless, but when my boss informs me that he’s a Sox fan who thinks that Steinbrenner should have gotten rid of Torre years ago, I nearly lost my shit. I was fuming.
So today, I called out sick.
Aw, Joe. Your dear, comforting glower has been a fixture in the dugout for half of my life. I’ll miss you and your cool demeanor and your eyes that look like they could shoot lasers.
Probably a good thing they actually couldn’t though. Other people seem to find enough reasons to hate the Yankees without their manager possessing laser vision.
NHF Update. Hillman named new Royals skipper:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3069833
Let me add myself to the legion of Sox fans who think this was utter crap. The only reason I had heart palpitations at the end of this season was Torre’s managing. I hate that guy, but I really don’t, you know?
Also Sars, I feel you when you talk about the fans who only care about winning. 200 miles up 95 North and you find “Pink Sox Fans” who have been into the game for almost three years. Those are the Sox fans that are laughing right now, and we hate them as much as you do. Probably more, because they make tickets impossible to get.
There is a certain breed of Sox-bandwagon fan here in New York that you cannot hate more than I do. I’m talking about the smug contrarians who moved here from somewhere *not* in New England, decided the Mets and Yanks were too mainstream or some damn thing, and cowboyed up with some green-hat-red-B action, and when you’re crammed against them on a Bronx-bound D train and you crack a Trot Nixon joke, they’re like, “…[blink].”
I’m being too mean, probably; it’s possible they’re just new fans of the game generally, and decided the Red Sox would be exciting to follow, and I can’t argue with that logic. It’s the “I’m a New Yorker, but I, baseball iconoclast, think for myself” attitude you get from some of them that bugs. Like, you really want to go against the grain? Root for the Orioles. …No? Huh. Wonder why not.
This is so well said. I was hearing a comment during some of the coverage of this that said, “They haven’t won a championship in seven years, and that’s just not acceptable in the Yankees organization.”
And I’m like…really? Thirty major-league teams, and you feel entitled not to go seven years without winning the World Series, even if you won four out of five — FOUR out of FIVE — immediately before that, and of those seven years, your team was in the World Series twice, even if they didn’t win? I mean, Christ. This is what makes the win-obsessed Yankee fans Sars is talking about seem like utter pussies to me. You can’t tolerate watching baseball because it’s fun, or to see what happens to your team? You ONLY give a shit if you can win the World Series far more often than anyone else? This is the entitlement thing that makes it feel like these particular Yankee fans — as Sars says, probably a vocal minority — seem like…bullies, frankly. Like everybody else is supposed to roll over and assume as they do that when all is right in the universe, the Yankees will probably win.
I grew up outside Philadelphia, where the fans have gotten to watch their team in the World Series five times in modern history. Somehow, they manage to carry on, and going seven years without winning the World Series after a streak like the Yankees had prior that wouldn’t be a cause for trashing the manager or acting all disappointed in him.
I don’t know enough about Torre as a manager to really pass judgment on him, and if there are substantive complaints, that’s fine, but “by winning the World Series only one-third of the time in the last twelve years, you have let us all down terribly” is a fucking ridiculous argument, and if you ever wonder who’s out there giving Yankee fans a bad name, it’s those people.
When I became a baseball fan in ’85-’86, I was a Mets fan, and my dad told me at *least* twice, “It isn’t always like this.” Meaning, I think, they’ll be bad one day, and for “day,” read “five years.” The man’s baseball childhood was basically the 12 Stations of Richie Ashburn; Philly fans know from having to wait. He wanted me to be prepared. Nothing could really prepare me, per se, for the absurdism of “Gregg Jefferies good, two legs bad,” but at least I was warned.
But if all you want out of the experience of following a team is to know that they’ll win…I don’t see the fun in that, if there’s no question as to what will happen. Also: the old saw about how if you *only* fail seven times out of ten at the plate, you’re a *good* hitter? Same kind thing with winning games; even the all-time great teams that shit-stomped their divisions lose more than a third of the time. Even the ’62 Mets won 60. (I think. Feel free to correct me.)
I mean, this is how I ended up on the Yankees bandwagon — by accident. We had to vote in the TV room on what to watch, because college students = pinkos. The Yankee fans outnumbered me four to one, so I watched the Yankees instead, because it was that or no baseball at all, and if I moved to Tampa or KC or Milwaukee? I’d watch those teams, good or bad, because those would be the ones that were on every night.
And on another note, I am so damn sick of stories about the ratings for the postseason and how they’re so bad because of small-market teams playing. Well…yeah. Small markets. The people who want to watch will find the World Series even if you air it on Lifetime Movie Channel, so if FOX thinks it’s too good for Denver fans, it should sell the rights, but I’m thinking fans in those markets are a little sick of being blamed for…not being larger in number. It’s just so patronizing at times: “It’s so sweet that the Rockies get to go to the World Series, because they’re the Jerry’s Kids of the major leagues, but no one really cares.” 1. That’s a ballsy fucking team out there on the field; they just steamrolled their postseason opponents in seven straight. Maybe a little credit. 2. If the Yankees were still in play, we’d have to hear a bunch of complaining about how smaller-market teams never get a chance.
Just enjoy the damn games before the long dark night of my sporting soul begins in two weeks, jeez.
You gave the ’62 Mets too much credit, Sars. They won 40 games.
Speaking of losing, and speaking of actual droughts, every team in the NL West has one pennant from within the last ten years except for the Dodgers. If Joe wants to manage in LA, he’s more than welcome, as far as I’m concerned. I forgive him for growing up a Giants fan (in Brooklyn, of all places). He may not know how to manage a pitching staff, but neither does Grady, and I like to imagine that Joe’s lineups wouldn’t be as stupid as some of Grady’s are.
And add me (and my dad) to the list of Sox fans who were thrilled that Joe told the Yankees to shove their $5M with incentives. I don’t think any manager needs a monetary incentive to win the World Series, as if winning the World Series itself isn’t incentive enough. And monetary incentives for the manager aren’t going to change what the team does; I don’t think dangling a $2M bonus in front of Joe Maddon’s nose is going to improve the Tampa bullpen. It’s not just insulting. It’s stupid.
Also, word to the complaint about the ratings. I personally didn’t watch the NLCS, but (1) I needed sleep, (2) I have enough stress with the ALCS going on, and (3) I fucking hate Chip Caray. It’s not because of the teams involved. If they want me to tune in to TBS next year without a particular rooting interest, they’re going to have to lock Chip Caray in a utility closet. I’d happily watch, like, Tampa and Baltimore duke it out in the ALCS if he wasn’t there to suck all the fun out of the room.
Aw, thanks for that reminder about the duckin’ Fodgers, Amanda! Any good news about the ratfinks in the southland eases the pain of the abomination of the double-A goings-on in China Basin this year. Mind you, remembrances of a pennant past only carry you so far when they’ve never won the Biggun in their current hometown. Neh. Vah.
Not that I’d be there to see it at this point anyway, more’s the pity. I’m currently on the northside of Chicago where egregious police oversight has allowed to run free the species known as the CUBS FAN WOOO. They have enough of a grip on the language of the game to bellow common catchphrases about the game, but mostly they just want to get duded up in bright blue and red (and a darling pink for the girls who can pretend like they’re part of the event, tee hee) and have someone bring them beer to their seats when they’re too ripped to stand up and walk 50 feet to a beer stand. I can’t say if your #2 (oh, ew) would be the equivalent of YANKEES FANS WOOO — and I rather hope not, because then the Chicago version would immediately develop profound inferiority complexes about them, staying up all night wondering if they were consistently as drunk as the YFWers while crying that New York stole from them the idea of pulling opposing teams into the stands for slovenly fighting (okay, sort of making the last part up as a pending gross behavior all around, mostly because Philly would perfect that before anyone).
[Other Wrigley regulars: the Picknickers, who are just there for The Experience and get snotty about Michelob over Old Style — as though the pedigree of the cat that peed in a bottle matters; and the actual fans. I’ve met three of the latter in the 20-ish games I’ve been to at precious, precious Wrigley Field. I expect there are more but they have the rare sense to shut the hell up.]
(After a night’s rest I realize that the unadulterated use of “ratfinks” was inappropriately harsh. I apologize for that, Amanda.)