The Vine: October 29, 2008
Dear Sars,
I have reason to suspect my one of my coworkers is a pathological liar, but I can’t be sure.
I’ve worked with Cait for about four years, andwe’ve become friendly.Out workplace is small, and during our busy season, the stress fosters a “comrades-in-arms” feeling that has made us all closer than just colleagues.We’ll go out in groups once a month or so, and lend around books, and watch each other’s pets during vacations, and talk about our lives.
Cait is a couple of years younger than me, very smart, hardworking, and accomplished.Up until a few days ago, I knew her as someone who’d been battling a serious disease for more than a decade, paid her own way through school in a variety of interesting, anecdotal jobs, now works two jobs, sometimes seven days a week, while she completes her PhD, teaches a dance class once a week, is paying off her father’s credit card debt after he died so her mother wouldn’t have that burden, etc.
She supposedly has led a very interesting life, but her stories of things she’s done or people she knows are not told in a boasting manner, and her stories of things she’s been through aren’t told in a way that feels calculated to win sympathy, although that is the result.
A few months ago, Cait’s stepfather died, and she flew home for the funeral.Cait had previously told me a complicated story about her real father, who was high-ranking military officer who’d immigrated to the U.S.from Europe when he was a teenager and changed his name, and she spent her childhood living on military bases with him, and he died from complications to something he was exposed to during the first Gulf War. Her mother had married his best friend after she was widowed.
The thing is, when I sent flowers, I found that her supposed stepfather had the same last name as Cait, the name she’d made a point of telling me was what her real dad had changed his name to when he got here.
Two days ago, over dinner with a mutual friend and former coworker, I brought this up. (Cait was not there.)Laura is closer to Cait than I am, and she told me that Cait lies a lot, mainly out of insecurity.What she brought up as an example was an academic conference in a different state Cait said she went to a few months ago, she came back with stories about how the paper she had presented had been selected for an award. Laura told me that Cait had told her she was going on vacation with a friend, but was telling our employer that it was a conference so that she could get the time off.
She said that Cait seemed to have forgotten that she told her the truth, and went on about the conference to her when she got back, which hurt Laura’s feelings.I remember that conference, which came at a busy time, and we all scrambled to cover Cait’s workload, but we were proud that she’d done so well.
In light of this I’m starting to wonder whether anything Cait’s told me is true:her perfect score on the SATs, her former-model mother who supposedly was nearly 50 when Cait was born, her year teaching at sea, anything about her childhood, even her illness. I look back and some of the things she’s said do seem really preposterous now, although at the time they were believable because they came from someone I trusted.
None of this has affected me personally, really, but I feel confused and betrayed.I sort of idolized her, and now I really want to know if any part of my picture of her is based on reality.I can’t ask her, because if she’s a liar she’ll just lie, and if she’s mostly truthful, well, how hideous it would be to falsely accuse someone of faking their cancer for sympathy.
This is eating at me, more than it should.If there’s a question in here somewhere, I guess it’s just, how do I let go of this?Is there a way of maintaining a friendly working relationship with this person when there’s a chance she has made up so much of her life?
Walter Mitty’s Office Mate
Dear Mate,
A friendly working relationship, of course there is.Remain cordial; keep the relationship work-based, and at work.
As far as letting go of it, that takes time.You feel like you got duped into respecting someone, based on information that you now suspect is false, and of course you could do some creative Googling and see for sure if she’s making shit up, but you have to ask yourself if you really want to know that.If she’s lying about work stuff, you may want to know that, because it’s unprofessional and it does affect you directly.The rest of it speaks to a more general insecurity and failure to observe basic social ethics, and while it’s not irrelevant at work, getting mixed up in it isn’t going to help you in any way, or right any injustices.It’s just going to get you mixed up in it.
You sound like you want it settled one way or the other — she’s a liar or she’s not — and I don’t blame you, but it’s probably best if you make a note to self that she’s not necessarily trustworthy, and step back from her a bit in the future.It doesn’t seem like you spend a ton of strictly social time with her, so keep it professional between you and make an effort not to turn every interaction with her into an attempt to catch her out.I mean, yeah, if she is lying about everything, that’s fucked up, but policing that if it’s not work-related is not a good use of your energy.
Dear Sars,
Here’s a smallish question with large implications.I am recently unemployed, and looking everywhere for a new job.I’ve registered with an employment agency in my city, and feel fairly confident about my agent and the opportunities out there.Also, I’ve applied to two dozen or so positions I could see myself really enjoying on a long-term basis, with professional contacts in many cases to get my back.
Here’s my problem.For various reasons, I need to see both a psychiatrist and a therapist on a regular basis.The psych, I could see once a month; the shrink, ideally every week.In my former jobs, I had hours that allowed me to schedule appointments rather easily; I worked later in the day, could arrange client meetings accordingly, et cetera.In my future mystery job, especially one procured by said employment agency, I imagine my schedule will be classic American 9-to-5.
How does one ask a new employer for (weekly) time off?If I were to see my therapist as early in the day as possible, that would mean I still wouldn’t get to my office before 10, or much later, depending on the location of my job.If it turns out I get an office support job (not my first choice, but beggars can’t be choosers), I doubt most employers could spare an hour, let alone an hour every week.I’d put this on the back burner — I need a livelihood and money, after all — but mental health, too, is sweet like the fruits of Guatemala.
Thanks,
Not Crazy About Scheduling Brain Time
Dear Brain,
Do therapists where you live not take evening patients?Maybe it’s just New York, but I don’t think half the therapists here even bother coming to the office before 5 PM.It’s not always possible to move your weekly appointment, but your first move is to ask your therapist and psychiatrist whether they have extended hours that might accommodate a more traditional 9-to-5 setup, or if they’d consider doing phone consults every now and then.
Or maybe you can work something out for the lunch hour.Either way, the issue here is that you are in fact asking; I don’t know the law, but I suspect that employers don’t have to accede to this type of request unless you furnish proof that it’s medically necessary, and perhaps not even then…so you may have to wait a month or two until things settle down, and then check with HR or your manager and see if there’s some flexibility there.
That’s provided you choose not to tell prospective employers up front that you will need these times available to you, which you could also do.I know it’s a tough economy and you don’t want to jeopardize your chances before you even get a second interview, but unless it’s a job where you must be present during certain hours — you work at a bank or a retail location — making it known, without going into detail, that you have various doctors’ appointments and would appreciate some flexibility shouldn’t present a huge stumbling block for most employers, provided you also make it known that the flexibility goes both ways, i.e. you will work late/weekends to make sure everything gets done.
But you may not have to tell them anything; most of the workforce has to do all their personal business after 5 PM, and everyone from dry cleaners to psychologists understands that, so see if your doctors can offer you that flexibility first.
Dear Sars,
I have a rather strange pickle that begs your wise attention.To explain: Years ago, in 1995, I had a good friend named Janice.Janice was only in my life for a little over a year before her husband got another job and she had to move away, but it was one of those deals where we grew insanely close insanely quickly, and she had a huge impact on my life.(I was 19, she was 40…sort of a sister/mother figure, and I absolutely idolized her.)
When she moved away, we both cried and promised to write and visit et cetera, and I did hear from her a couple of times, but then our communication kind of petered out.This was a couple of years before the internet was a viable communication tool for those of us out in the sticks, so it took a little more effort to keep in touch, and I just figured she was busy.Long story short, life went on, I grew up, got married, got boring, and never heard from her again.
Over the years, I’ve thought of her a lot.I still feel her influence and the effect she had on me, and I still miss her.Every once in a while, I typed her name hopefully into Google, as you do, but never really came up with anything — until last weekend, when I found her OBITUARY.
That in itself was like a knife straight through my heart, but what made it even worse is that she died in 1997, less than two years after we parted ways.She was only 42 years old.I had a really hard time processing the whole thing, and went through a couple days of heavy, tearful mourning.Even though I hadn’t seen her or heard from her in 11 years, I always figured she was out there somewhere, living a hopefully happy life, and maybe someday I might be able to find her again.
Not really thinking clearly (or, at least, not very compassionately), I started Googling around for her husband, Larry, whom I also knew and got on with very well.I knew he was a musician, and I discovered that he was playing little festivals around his local area with a quartet.Of course the quartet had a MySpace, so without really thinking about it, I added the quartet’s MySpace as a friend…not very clever of me, but my only defense was that I was grief-stricken and reaching out for something, ANYTHING that was a part of Janice.
The pickle is this: the leader of the quartet has now all happily messaged me (they only have 16 friends) wondering how I knew about them and their music.I have no idea what to say; I know that Larry would recognize me if he saw my picture, and anyway my profile mentions the name of the town we both used to live in, which is a very small place that not many people would know about.I could blindly hope that Larry would never see the MySpace, but I don’t think I can count on that.
The way I see it, I either have two choices: either I fess up and admit that I knew Larry though Janice, who I recently found out died 11 years ago so, I Googled his name and found his band and added them, which just seems horribly tacky and juvenile…or, I play totally dumb and say that I knew Larry and his wife from back when we lived in this little town, and isn’t it great, I’ve found them again!, which seems absolutely sacrilegious.
I don’t suppose there is any elegant way out of this.
Is there?
Thank you for your consideration!
Technology BAD!
Dear Tech,
Just tell him you used to know Larry’s late wife Janice.You don’t have to get into the recent particulars, and besides, there isn’t anything wrong with Googling friends from the past.It’s practically what Google is for.And not to put it too baldly, but…Larry knows Janice died.It’s been over a decade.You can safely assume that he has emotional mechanisms in place for dealing with the occasional reappearance of people from Janice’s life.
This isn’t actually a big deal.You feel like it is because you’re still dealing with your own emotions surrounding the situation, but you’re bringing a guilt and fresh anguish to it that, after 11 years, Larry is well past by now.And there’s nothing wrong with that, so give yourself a break, and just tell the truth in one sentence.Larry can handle it, and after a deep breath you can too.
Tags: etiquette friendships workplace
I enjoy reading your advice. You’re kind of like a Dear Abby for folks with problems that extend beyond social protocal.
@Brain Time
They aren’t legally obligated to give her the time off, unless her problems “substantially limit a major life activity” which is the test for the Americans with Disabilities Act. Even then, they are only required to provide a “reasonable accomodation” and its a toss up whether they could successfully argue a couple hours off weekly is “reasonable” or not.
Regardless, I don’t think you really want to go down the legal road anyway. My first suggestion is exactly what Sars said, see if you can get early evening appts. with your doctors. Especially if you are a long time patient, they should be willing to do that. (BTW-if you depend on insurance to pay for this, you need to make sure to sign up for COBRA with your old employer until you find a new job and your benefits kick in).
If you docs won’t do evenings, then I would bring it up in the interview. If possible, try to arrange it so you get the same appt. time every week, and then you can tell prospective employers, “I have a standing personal commitment on X day and would need to come in a bit late, but will make up the time by staying late/coming in on the weekend/whatever.” You don’t have to say its for counseling, but if you tell them what is happening, when it will play much better than just vaguely saying I need time off for doctor’s appointments every week. Its also better to disclose it in advance than after the hire. If an interviewee approached me, told me exactly when they require the time and their plan for making up for it, I would respect them for being upfront and honest.
The lives we touch are our greatest memorial, and I think Larry might like knowing that somebody out there is still thinking fondly of his late wife after all this time.
@Brain,
Also, ask about flexible work schedules. If it’s an office white-collar job, you might not need to be there each and every day as long as you get your assignments done; maybe you could work Sunday to Thursday instead of Monday to Friday.
Or even work longer days during the week. My employer has a “9/80” schedule, where you work nine-hour days Monday to Thursday, and then every other Friday is a day off. This is unbelievably convenient. Also, they have “4/10”, which (as the name implies) is four ten-hour days every week, with Friday always an off day.
Mate’s letter brought me back, let me tell ya. I used to work with a woman who similarly lied about her personal and professional resumes. None of the lies afftected the job at all, so they never particularly bothered me, nor did the fact that she was lying to me on a daily basis. Some coworkers felt as Mate did, betrayed and wanting closure, but I can’t say it was ever more than a curiousity to me. Once I started mentally applying some Holmesian deductions to her assertions, I could both see the lie immediately and amuse myself in the process. Human behavior is a great study.
We lie to protect ourselves, usually. And sometimes that means that we lie to ourselves. Cait feels vulnerable, for sure. I don’t suggest that Mate needs to (or even should) bolster her, but just knowing her weakness should make it easier to see a whopper coming and lend it proper perspective. I recommend David Livingstone Smith’s book on the subject, Why We Lie.
@Technology,
Let’s just hope that this isn’t one of those situations where the two of you end up together and someone makes a heartwarming rom-com movie about it! “www.<3.com, a love story for the modern world”.
But seriously: There’s nothing tacky about looking up an old friend you haven’t heard from in a while. And there’s nothing wrong with having used Google; if you didn’t have any contact information, well, what else would you do?
Tech, might it make you feel better to write a letter/email/note whatever to Larry before you post the MySpace message? You could just say something like, “I knew Janice many years ago. We fell out of touch, but I thought of her fondly and only recently heard of her death and wanted to say I’m very sorry…” Or whatever. It sounds like part of what upsets you is that you feel like you should offer condolences and haven’t, like it’s tacky to speak to Larry without saying something first. A note or email could fix that- especially since many people who lose a loved one say that the saddest thing as time passes is that it seems like other people forget them or don’t mention them.
@Walter Mitty’s office mate,
I think I know her! She too had pretend cancer, plus she was friends with Trent Reznor and owned part of his record company, and had a good friend who was spending his life in prison for killing her rapist. That’s the condensed list of crap that I found out wasn’t true (after trying to give her the benefit of the doubt for as long as I could).
We were once work friends, turned into real life friends after I left that job, and now we no longer keep in touch. I had to cut her out. It was just too damn stressful listening to her spin these insane tales and either pretend to believe her, or confront her about it. As for letting go of the feeling of being duped and betrayed, time and distance did the trick for me.
Re: the office liar – I can’t truthfully say that I have never fibbed at work (not as large as Cait seems to have, but still), especially when I didn’t foresee my assignment being as long as it was. I like to keep my personal life separate from work, so I know that I told some things that were half-true to make it easier on myself (e.g., my mother’s best friend & business partner who we all called “uncle” wasn’t really biologically related, but when he passed away I took a day off for my uncle’s funeral… only to have some of my co-workers asking about who’s brother it was, did he have any kids, was I close to my cousins, etc.). And although they wouldn’t have ever caused any real harm, it was a weird thing to keep pretending for the 8 years that I was there.
@ Brain – I think people above have already given some great feedback about communicating your needs with your future boss, but I would recommend proceeding delicately. Honesty is great – and the right way to go – but there is always the threat of discrimination by potential employers. Depending on how the interviewer feels, they could be protecting the company from huge insurance claims or just plain uncomfortable with someone who needs that much medical attention. It isn’t right, but it does happen. And whatever your personal needs are for therapy, it can be hard to understand for people who haven’t dealt with that situation personally. They may misconstrue “proactive” health care with a liability. Again, it’s wrong – but it happens. I would suggest that you carefully word your request (as suggested above “a standing personal commitment”) and feel out your boss. If he/she doesn’t think they can accommodate you might be able to reveal a bit more “it’s a private matter, but I need to see my doctor on a weekly basis and our standing appointment is Friday at 9am, but I am open to changing the date and time” and then offer to work late/make up the time in some way. Maybe the knowledge that it is medical, but without too much info, can help sway him/her and then get a note from your doctor verifying your whereabouts. For all they know, you’re getting blood transfusions or chemotherapy or something and won’t want to be the jerk who stood in your way (as they well shouldn’t). And hopefully, there will be a time that works. Best of luck!
@Tech – my rule of thumb is that anyone who uses their real name on the internet wants to be found. And if you find them, for whatever reason, then it’s fair game. And I think your friend will probably be glad to hear from you, and not feel like you’re stalking — you found him directly via his band’s website. I have gotten emails like that from people that I hadn’t thought about in a while and it was so nice to hear from them — and know they were still thinking of me.
Tech, I’m sorry for your loss.
There’s nothing wrong with just saying what Sars said, you know of them through Larry’s late wife. And Larry hearing from someone who knew and loved his spouse would be a boon and tonic for his long term feelings of grief. I’d wait a few days and write the letter a couple times though, to make sure the freshness of your feelings don’t overwhelm your condolences. The tricky thing with this kind of fresh grief over an older wound is not overwhelming those close to the person with your feelings. You want to make them feel better, not out of nowhere suddenly succor you for your feelings.
And Walter, wow, so that’s what it’s like working with Donna Draper!
@Brain – the last time I went job hunting, I also had firm dates booked for my wedding and honeymoon, so I had to be up front about needing extended time off in my interviews. What I found out was that if a hirer thinks you’re the right candidate for the job, they’re going to accommodate you. I made it clear that I didn’t expect a vacation advance or anything–it was strictly unpaid leave, and I intended to make every preparation necessary before I left so that whoever covered for me would have no problems. Bottom line, I was honest and made it clear that I wasn’t trying to bilk the company for anything and that I was serious about the job, and I think they respected that. I ended up getting three offers and got to pick the job I wanted.
If you’re talking about office support work, I HIGHLY recommend signing with a temp-to-hire agency. That gives you the opportunity to try on a job and test drive the office environment, management and coworkers before you commit to anything (and meanwhile, they’re test-driving YOU). You don’t need to waste time on jobs that are obviously a bad fit, and when you find the one that does fit, everybody wins. And it’s a good way of finding out what the scheduling is like and how strict or laid back they are about it. I’ve worked for (and found great jobs through) a couple of these agencies, both of which also provided health benefits. And in my state, if an assignment ends and the agency doesn’t find you a new one within two weeks, you’re eligible for unemployment to help you over the hump. If nothing else, it’s a great way to make both money and contacts while you’re doing your search.
It’s a good way to get your foot in the door of a great company, too. I once took a two-week assignment to file and sort mail for a non-profit, and by the end of the two-weeks they asked me to stay on full-time as their membership manager (it still depresses me that that company closed up shop in my state and I wasn’t in a position to move to their new DC headquarters). In short: Temping, YAY!
@Mate: I knew someone like that too. She was 25, but had done a stint in the peace corps, been a manager at McDonald’s, been a professional dancer, apprenticed with a native American shaman, taught catechism at a Catholic church, attended a very exclusive college-prep type boarding school, exhibited art at a major gallery in our state, back-packed through Europe (for 2 years, no less!), graduated from a not-very-exclusive state, university and gotten a master’s degree. I think it’s not uncommon to find people like that.
Just a quick note about Therapists schedules outside of NY to Sars, I wish it were like that here! I live in El Paso (TX) and my therapist starts at 9 00 am and closes up shop at 4 00 pm, so I have to take time off from work to see her or schedule appointments during vacation (I’m a teacher). It sucks!
I just want to supplement the earlier discussion of the ADA by pointing out that intermittent FMLA (Family and Medical Leave Act) leave might also be a possibility, depending on your situation, as might some kind of state law depending on where you are, but I also really, really, REALLY want to agree that you want to try very hard to avoid going down the “take the job and then tell the employer you’re leaving and if they give you any guff you’ll sue them” road. And don’t assume employers won’t accommodate an hour a week, especially if you’re flexible about making up the time. Lots of employers would happily trade an hour when things tend to be slow for an hour when they could really use an extra hand.
I entirely agree with Sarah that the first thing to do is try to schedule your appointments during non-work hours (I have some vague recollection that at least one of those laws requires that anyway, maybe?), and if not, just be up-front that you have a standing medical appointment once a week and see what happens. Frankly, you’re going to want an employer who’s going to be supportive of a long-term medical situation like this, and if somebody’s like, “Oh, medical appointments weekly? Go away,” they’ll probably suck to work for anyway. There are good employers and there are jerkweed employers, and you need a good one.
Short version: if you really are confident in your prospects, I would approach the situation…you know, confidently, with the understanding that you’ll work something out.
@Brain
I’ve never been willing to tell an employer that I need to see a therapist. (I suspect they would be understanding, but I don’t want to risk it if they’re not.) And the therapists/psychiatrists I’ve seen generally don’t have hours much outside 9-5. I’ve always made do scheduling sometime around the lunch hour. I’ve worked pretty independently in most positions, so I rarely had anyone paying close enough attention to notice I was gone for over an hour and a half (factoring in travel time). If someone did, or I had to schedule a meeting, I’d make a vague reference to a “doctor’s appointment.” Of course, this probably wouldn’t work for an office support position.
Good luck!
I agree with the commenters who said it might be nice for Tech to send Larry a quick note saying how awesome she thought Janice was and that she was sad to recently learn of her death. After 11 years, I doubt that it’s painful for him to hear about her anymore, but it will always be nice for him to hear about how much she was liked when she was here.
@Mate: If she also appeared on the original “90210,” was good friends with Amber Tamblyn in middle school, has trouble processing complex carbohydrates, and got into Juilliard despite being 75% deaf, I went to high school with her. (She really did get into Juilliard, but as soon as they learned she wasn’t actually 75% deaf, they said sayonara.) This would explain why I didn’t believe her brother was one of the winners of the tenth season of “The Amazing Race,” though it turned out to be true.
In this girl’s case, she lied to make herself more interesting and to get a reaction. Eventually I just started ignoring her and let the lies catch up to her.
Cat, bite your tongue. Sars is MUCH smarter than Dear Abby.
Hi, TechBad –
Sars is right, there’s nothing wrong with saying you remembered Larry’s late wife and wanted to look him up and see how he was doing. As you said, it’s been 11 years now … he might be delighted to hear from someone who remembered her.
Walter Mitty – I’ve known people like that. Aren’t they fun? (Not.) I feel so sorry for those people. You must have pretty low self esteem to feel like you have to lie about everything. The thing is, all those lies eventually come back and bite them in the rear, and it’s never pretty to watch. I feel sorry for Cait, and sorry for you – it hurts to find out you’ve been duped. If anything, you learn from your mistakes, though, and you know for next time that if somebody’s got “too interesting” a life, maybe it really is …. too interesting!
@Office Mate: Oh, one of those people. I know one of those myself. I never did figure out why she felt the need to tell the lies she told, but one thing I did learn:
she was strongly, borderline-violently, defensive of her lies. It was safest to be politely disinterested; any questioning caused escalation — first of the lies, including setting up complicated situations to “prove” that things were the truth, and if someone continued not to buy the story, escalation to wildly inappropriate behavior (both in social and work situations).
Fortunately, said person’s crazy lies never really affected her ability to do her job. If you suspect your office mate’s lies WILL affect her ability to do her job, or they start to, I would document things VERY carefully and figure out a good way to express these concerns in a strictly professional (and possibly anonymous) fashion.
@ Mate: I’ve been friends with a couple of pathological liars in my day. I think the hardest part about dealing with these people and their aftermath is that they’re usually very likable. You *want* to give them the benefit of the doubt when their stories don’t quite add up, and it’s not unreasonable to feel betrayed and plain creeped out when the reality that someone’s presented you with completely unravels.
On the other hand, a woman that I knew who had fake terminal cancer turned out to actually be very sick, but with a mental illness instead of a physical one. Obviously, not all liars are schizophrenics, but it seems like Cait could have some mental health issues of her own. Empathizing with her on those terms might help you to let go of the betrayal…
Mate –
Wow, you work with the female equivalent of my older brother. I feel you on this one. I used to look up to him. He’s 10 years older then I am, so I always had that older brother hero worship going. But, I realized after college that everything he says is bull. Super crazy wacko bull. He lies about things no one could even care about. Like the time I realized he took all the award pins off my high school letterman jacket and put them on his. Easily 10 years after he was through with high school. Not even close to the worst or most insane of his lies, but one of the only ones with physical evidence of how crazy he is. I loved when he made up the one about how he wanted to go to law school more then anything in order to fleece my grandmother out of about 2 grand. (Prep for the lsat, taking the lsat, application fees, other things I’m sure he just made up). This is after she put a down payment on a condo so he had enough room for his son.
Ugh, sorry this isn’t supposed to be an essay. Anyway, what I finally had to do was just have an incredibly superficial relationship with him. I mean, he gets every one of my obscure movie references, we have the same sense of humor, generally love the same movies and books so there’s a lot of common ground. He can even come up and visit for a day or two and people always comment on how well we get along. But, and this is a big one, I never would look to him for support, I never would ask him to keep something to himself, and I never, ever ever believe his side of the story about anything. I generally tune him out when we’re not just joking around about stuff. It’s sad, but it’s what works for me.
Dear Brain Time:
Using the term “chronic condition” (which is what a lot of clinical depression is; I don’t know your particularly case, but your setup sounds a lot like mine) is a way to phrase it. “I have a chronic condition and I have a weekly standing appointment with one doctor and a monthly standing appointment with another; of course I will use my sick leave but how do you think it is best I handle it?”” is one way of going.
Phrasing it (non-confrontationally) so that it is a ball-in-their-court sort of way, “I have a chronic condition and I have a weekly standing appointment with one doctor and a monthly standing appointment with another. I presume I can use sick time for that. How would you like to handle it?”
That would only be, as Sars points out, if your doc and therapist don’t have off-schedule hours. My therapist works Saturdays and my doctor works until 7 PM, so it’s easy for me to schedule without having to take time off from work. But if you don’t have that flexibility, using sick leave for doctor’s appointments is common, and being up-front and matter-of-fact about it should help.
@Mate: Oh, lord, that sounds familiar. I knew someone who’d been to Julliard, spoke 7 languages, engaged to an amazing man we never met, could have been a pro-ballerina- except for the cancer- etc, etc. She was working as a nanny ‘just for now’ as a break before huge career moves ahead. We got along really well in the beginning, and then her lying – and the reasons why she seemed always to have a small number of intense short-term friendships became clear.
My advice, if you get this vibe from her, would be to minimise contact with her. Stay friendly, listen to what she says, but in my experience, it’s a losing game trying to ‘catch them out’. From a normal, rational point of viwe, the lying seems utterly untenable: “How could she get away with that? Doesn’t she realise she said one thing to A, and another to B?!”. But you have to remember that she’s operating from a totally different point of view, in which reality is much more pliable- in her mind, she COULD have gone to a conference, and she MIGHT have won an award, and that’s enough to say that she DID. She probably won’t be embarassed if you bring up one of the lies- she might admit it or try to lie around it, but it won’t, from her point of view, pierce the overall facade.
In my situation, my belief in her illness (which was meant to be quite serious at the time- 3 years ago) led to her trying to stay at my place, trying to get me to pay for her healthcare, etc etc. It led to a lot of awkwardness & ultimately her bitching about me & my family to a number of people. Anyway, I’m not sure if your friend is that extreme- she doesn’t seem to have the vindictive streak. Regardless, though, I think the less contact you have with someone like that, the better.
Brian,
I supervise an employee who has weekly appointments with her therapist. When she was hired she was informed HR that if hired she would like to be able to take long lunches once a week for a standing medical appointment (she never told them what it was for specifically, I only know because I actually knew her socially before we ended up at the same company) and would use sick and/or vacation time to cover the “long” part. HR considered it “reasonable accommodation” as she was up front about the issue, was not falsifying her time cards and was able to perform all the functions of her job. The time is blocked out on her calendar so no one tries to schedule her for meetings, she gets all her work done and it’s all good. She’s gone for 1.5 hours on Wednesdays, but also works late on that day. But the key was that she got HR involved from the get go to make sure that everyone knew the score and that the supervisor (now me) understood how to document issues of her not performing the essential functions of her job if any such incidents arose.
@Brain:
I am the CFO for a mid-size insurance company, and I’ve hired a lot of different people. If I were you, I would wait till I had a job offer in hand, and then ask about a slightly flexible work schedule as part of the offer negotiation. (I am assuming here that you can’t get the evening appointment that Sars has suggested – try that, first.) I have 26 people in my group and most of them have schedules that aren’t strictly 9-to-5 for one reason or another, and we are able to work out the hours. (Other departments at my company do the same thing, so it’s not just Finance.) We’re an insurance company, so we’re not exactly cutting edge here – I think most corporations work the same way these days. Work/life balance is now recognized as an important benefit for attracting and retaining good employees, and if your skills and self-presentation are strong enough to get you that job offer, I expect you won’t have a problem with a slightly altered schedule. You may need to come in early or work late another day to make a 4:00 appointment somewhere – I am not saying to expect the time off as a gift – but I would be very surprised if your employer were unwilling to make this accomodation.
Best of luck to you!
Wow. Funny how many of us know liars! I was friends with a pathological liar (but not anymore due to other reasons) who was actually “outed” by another mutual friend who discovered a real whopper of a lie. But even after losing that good friend, he never stopped lying. And he never will. It’s just part of his personality. All of his friends knew (but didn’t talk about it) and once you knew he was lying it’s easy enough to nod-and-smile-oh-really-you-met-Bono-in-Banff-and-partied-with-him-that’s-nice and change the topic. Like attica said above, it was more like a curiousity to me.
The only time it became a real problem was when I introduced my boyfriend to my friend and forgot to warn my bf about the lying. Of course, my friend went off on some fantastical story about meeting certain musicians who my bf is real, actual friends with. Oops! My bf hated him after that for being phony and making things up about knowing those people. But, I still liked him. Even though his lies weren’t true, they were still good stories!
Brain–
Even if your therapists don’t work outside office hours, you might want to consider/discuss shifting around your appointment time depending on the schedule at the specific job you end up taking. Then you can tell the people hiring you that you will explore options that are optimal for your potential schedule, which will sound great compared to obligations that are already fixed at X time.
My therapist does not work outside office hours, and only works two days a week, and at the time I started to see her (after I had been at my job, so it was easier to deal with in a way), she only had one appointment time, in the middle of the afternoon. I was lucky because my boss let me go for it anyway and make up the time by working at home. But after a while it became evident that it simply was Not Working.
Luckily I was able to get a new time with her at the start of the week instead of in the middle of the week (Monday morning). It sort of sucks to have therapy early on Monday morning, but then it’s done for the rest of the week and it doesn’t disturb my schedule at all because everyone in my group works later on Mondays because we have a late meeting. It’s sort of perfect. Hopefully you can find a job that’ll allow a really easy, good arrangement like that!
Re: Mate — Oh the drama! I used to have an almost pathological attraction to pathological liars, mostly in college. They are usually so charming and interesting. Plus, they absorb everything and everyone around them, which is what I was looking for at the time. I was lying about parts of my life that I was ashamed about – so maybe I wanted to be around someone even more outlandish than me (though I quickly learned that I could have been much more creative, which in turn made me relax and stop lying!).
But like all the other readers noted, you really do get deeply indifferent to the lies once you figure it out, which usually compels the liar to stretch even farther. Hopefully that won’t be the case with the office mate in question.
All the descriptions here of false cancer victims really blows me away – my friend did something similar towards the end of our friendship, when she knew I was doubting her. Very strange situation to just be sort of ‘Meh, did you eat my bagel’ as someone talks about violent seizures in movie theaters, passing out in a pool of blood on campus, etc. Oy vey. Thank gawd for my “boring” friends.
re: Linda’s response to Brain (above) – FMLA eligiblitiy actually doesn’t begin right away; a person has to be employed by the employer for 12 months and have worked at least 1250 hours in the 12-month period prior to the requested leave. ADA reasonable accomodations do begin immediately (even with the interview if needed, although that wouldn’t apply in Brain’s case).
I agree with Jennifer and I’m on the flip side of that, being an employee who requires weekly doc visits for my asthma and allergies. I’ve been upfront with every potential employer and worked out a schedule wherein I come in early on the day of my appointment so I can still finish all of my work. The right employer will be willing to work with you – after all, it’s in their best interest to have healthy employees who don’t take care of themselves and miss a ton of work.
Oops, I mean healthy employees who DO take care of themselves and DON’T miss a ton of work. Coffee, don’t fail me now.
I think the answer for Mate is just to realize that, Walter Mitty is a pretty pathetic character and so is her office mate. Obviously the lying fills some kind of need for this woman-to make her life more exciting than it really is, or because she’s insecure and thinks she needs to lie to get people’s attention, who knows? At the end of the day, that’s between her and her therapist. I understand Mate’s anger, really I do, but I think the answer to her question is just to see the woman for what she is-kind of pathetic, and then she will be able to just tune her out when she starts up the lies, roll her eyes, and move on.
@Mate–
I have a friend like that. He went so far as lying about being HIV positive. Of course, when he confided the information to myself and another close friend 10 years ago, we hugged and cried and worried for him. But that was the last we heard of it. In the intervening time, we discovered that he made up stories all the time–the start drama, to get attention, for fun.
At this point (and I do still have a friendship with him), I take everything he says with a grain of salt, refrain from telling him anything really personal about myself, and my family gets a lot of laughs out of the crazy shit he comes out with.
@Jen S
I think Donna Draper would just not say anything about her life at all. This is more like working with Stephenie Glass.
Mate, you have my sympathies.
@Elisa: Just wanted to second your experience of doctors’ hours–I think that therapists or any other type of doctor staying open past the dot of 5 is a strictly NYC phenomenon. I have never run into either the practice or the assumption of its availability in any other part of the country. Actually, in my city (of about 100,000 people), the same is true of many other types of businesses as well, including dry cleaners and banks. My lunch break is my only chance to run many types of errands.
“Sars is MUCH smarter than Dear Abby.”
And ever so much cooler – Dear Abby never donned a TOMATO SUIT for charitable reasons!
I would bet that parts of the lies are true…most lies aren’t made of whole cloth. I feel sorry for Cait. What sort of life is she living, juggling all the BS? Mate, don’t let her decption make you cynical. She didn’t mean it personally & she can’t help herself. Downgrade her to a work-friend and avoid the drama if you can. The house of cards will fall, someday.
I’d think a prospective employer would be flexible if you’re willing to make up the time, but I wouldn’t tell them why – not that there’s any shame, just that it’s none of thier business. They shouldn’t even ask once they hear the word “doctor” because of HIPAA privacy laws. And here’s FMLA’s website if you’d like to see what that’s about: http://tinyurl.com/rrchq but Pegkitty is right, it depends on # of hours worked in the previous year, so a new employee isn’t eligible.
Tech, I’m so sorry for your loss. (And, in my opinion, she’s still around & still loves you.) I still run into someone occasionally to whom the word that my mother has passed on is news, after 20+ years, and while part of me stings afresh because it’s fresh grief for them, the majority of my reaction is that someone else really loved my mom and that’s awesome. I don’t even see why you’d hesitate to identify how you know the widower…he will love reminiscing with you, I’m sure. And he can fill you in on the last bit of your friend’s life. And he will take comfort that another person on this planet loved his late wife, because she deserved that love. Sending you a big hug.
decption = deception. (Jeez Margaret, buy a vowel…)
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m really enjoying hearing about all the pathological liars. Good times.
I once dated a pathological liar; his best tales were about the time he spent on the streets of Biloxi as a teenaged runaway. He claimed to have seen a girl get killed by a gang of thugs. There was also the one about his alcoholic father who threw him onto a glass coffee table, shattering it in the process.
Really nice, that one.
I don’t know-in Cincinnati my doctor, my therapist, my dentist, and my vet keep evening hours at least one or two days a week. I think it probably depends on the size and culture of the city.
@Mate Sounds like people have run into a variety of liars here so you need to figure out what you have. If she’s pretty harmless otherwise and not an obnoxious conversation dominator or one-upper or manipulator (trying to get money, favors, etc from you), then (as Sars suggested) it doesn’t seem worth it to try to uncover her lies or fix her or what not. Be amused by her lies if nothing (bemused, perhaps, is a better word). Maybe after time, you might come to know her better naturally and find out what really drives the lies and find out her real life. I’ve had two officemates over 7 years of work and you learn about them in bits and pieces and become friends in a unique sort of way.
Oops, hit submit too soon.
@Brain Just throwing out another idea. I know you mentioned that you think you’ll have a standard 9-5 job, but before you blurt out that you’ll need an 90 or 120 minute chunk of time, maybe chat about the schedule, any flex time, start/end hours, lunch times, etc. You might risk the interviewer giving you a scewed picture of what’s really acceptable (“we have a flexible hours,” when your new department gets crabby if you take an occassional 90 minute lunch, but that can happen anywhere). If you find a job where they expect you to do the work, show up during core hours, cover your meetings and other important thigns, but no one cares if you come at 8 one day and 9:30 the next day as long as work is getting done…no one may really need to know your appointment schedule. Or if Tuesdays, you take a long lunch, etc.
In my city of half a million, “after-hours” therapy is easy to find.
Brain, every interviewer I’ve ever known says people clam up when it comes time to say, “Do YOU have any questions?” and this is a huge frustration. So you have a built-in exchange, with this situation.
It shows a lack of preparation (and discernment) to come to a job interview with no good questions to ask a prospective employer. So here’s your (first) question: “How does the firm handle scheduling/healthcare time needs/work-life balance?” You can then follow up with your personal structure needs as feels right for a given interview, discussing scheduling or benefits to whatever depth is appropriate for the interview.
As many people have advised, you shouldn’t get into particulars about why and wherefore. It isn’t necessary, and the scheduling or work-life balance questions, properly deployed, can educate you enough not to have to reveal anything too personal/specific, even if you do say something about your time needs.
I have a pair of Mittys of my own (Mitties … ? Heh) – one, a hypochondriac, and another The Hottest Woman Who Ever Lived. The first has proven she can’t be stopped with a gentle, “My, you and your husband are ALWAYS in the hospital, aren’t you?” – but she’s so true in the ways that count in a friendship I love her anyway. The second apparently *cannot* step out of her door without men and women everywhere gasping in awe at her beauty – but, again, she has her heart in the right place. One learns how to navigate, and sometimes – just how to get off the phone. At least mine are capable of subject changes from time to time.
I lived with a pathological liar for a bit (thanks, cragislist). She had a brain tumor that mysteriously acted up around rent-time, but she was never a patient at the hospital she claimed to check into. She had dated Carson Daly for 9 months. Her mother had kicked her out of the house, but she’d continued going to an exclusive private school she was scholarshipped to until her mother called her a runaway and got her put into a juvenile facility with violent criminals that she taught to communicate their feelings. I started to suspect that something was up, but I liked the place and was willing to roll with it until the disappearing around rent time became really obnoxious. So I searched her room, tryign to find any evidence of this “brain tumor;” prescriptions, hospital discharge papers, insurance statements, anything.
Instead, I found her crystal meth. I decided to go ahead and move out shortly afterwards. As I left, I told her that I was sick of being lied to and that I didn’t appreciate the meth smoking in the house. For once, she had nothing to say.
“decption = deception. (Jeez Margaret, buy a vowel…)”
Hey, we just assumed your vowel-buying budget went to Donors Choose this month.
I’m really fascinated by all these stories about compulsive liars! I don’t think I’ve ever known one (or their stories sounded so outlandish I figured they were an elaborate joke and didn’t think of them as “lies” per se), but I have been guilty of the occasional lie of expedience, e.g. my little sister, who can’t tell a linear story to save her life, asks me if I saw “Gossip Girl” last night. I say yes, because if I don’t I’m going to have to suffer a real-time play-by-play of every action of the entire episode, with several, “wait, I forgot to tell you something, let me go back”-s. If that’s a sin, I suppose I’m guilty.
@alison, hmmm, guess you’re right–perhaps Mate should search her office pal’s shelves for Meditations On An Emergency?
And hee hee, check out today’s Basic Instructions at http://www.basicinstructions.net–classic!
Did anyone else read the article in “Glamour” magazine (I think it was last month) about the teacher who had breast cancer? Everyone loved her, took care of her, her students raised money for breast cancer research because of her, her father & friends took her to chemo… and then found out she never had cancer. She’d faked the entire thing. She’d been visiting a friend who was actually getting chemo, not getting chemo herself. AND it turned out she’d done this before, at other schools.
She wasn’t an evil person, and she apparently didn’t take money for herself; it all went to cancer research. I think they finally diagnosed her as bipolar, or something along those lines.
Pathological liars must be either mentally ill, have addictions of sorts, or just have tragically low self esteem – at least, that’s what I’ve surmised from reading these posts & other things. It’s so sad to think that anyone creates these fantasies because they dislike themselves or their own lives so much. I hope after reading all this that I’ll remember, the next time I encounter someone like that, how unhappy they must be and try to be patient (if very distant).
I knew a guy kind of like Cait. He claimed to have been twice married and twice divorced by age 21, hold a patent for a soft-drink bottle design that used 30% less plastic than similar bottles, the money from which allowed him to afford extensive reconstructive surgery on his face after a car accident, and on and on and on. I don’t think he had any malicious intent, I think it was just because he couldn’t stand not being the center of attention.
If you believe Cait’s lies affect your work life, that she’s lying to facilitate or cover up something illegal, or is a danger to herself or others, then by all means tell someone– the police, Human Resources, whatever. Otherwise, keep your relationship strictly work-related and don’t be too quick to believe everything she tells you. Oh, and if she’s anything like the guy I knew, don’t tell her anything you wouldn’t want repeated.
Hey Mate. I guess I’ll come at this from a different standpoint: I am a pathological liar. I know how your officemate feels. I honestly don’t know why I do it. Well obviously insecurity and general low self esteem but beyond that… it just falls out of my mouth. I have slightly different biographies with different groups of friends and I am incredibly dreading the day when all of them meet and compare stories and realize i’m a fraud.
I really don’t like this about myself and it’s something I am trying to work on. But just so you know, for someone prone to lying it becomes addictive. And incredibly hard to stop (even when you know rationally it’s wrong). Just treat her kindly and gently point out when her stories are inconsistent. You can subtly embarrass someone by showing that you pay attention to details.