The Vine: Novembama 5, 2008
Dear Sars,
Here’s an etiquette question I can’t seem to find addressed anywhere online.
My in-laws are inappropriately invested in my thank-you-note writing.
I create custom stationery for all occasions for my husband and myself, and now for our new son (wedding paraphernalia, thank-you notes for our bridal shower, wedding, baby shower, gifts received for the baby after he arrived, etc.). My M-I-L seems to love these cards; she would never compliment me directly on something I created, but has mentioned such sentiments to my husband in the past.
The issue is that both she and my father-in-law have directly asked my husband “where” other people’s thank-you notes are, if they have not been received immediately after a gift was given. In fact, some friends of theirs gave my in-laws a gift for our son right after he was born, and my father-in-law got up in my face when they gave it to us about whether these friends would “get” the most recent note I had created, and when they could expect it.
I am typically very prompt in thanking people for gifts given, but will admit that I haven’t yet created, written, and sent out the notes for our son’s baptism last month. He’s an infant, we both work full-time, and we’re lucky to sleep 3 hours in a row right now. The notes are obviously on my list, but they just haven’t gotten done yet. Caring for my son and making sure he’s healthy and fed is more important right now, and I’m sure most normal people would understand that.
But yesterday when my husband was talking to his mother on the phone, I overheard him fielding a question, again, about thank-you notes! My blood was boiling and I’m still steamed.
Is it ever appropriate to hound someone about their thank-you-note writing? Isn’t it really the business only of the gift-giver and the recipient?If it was my mom hassling us, sure, I understand that my manners are a reflection on her. But my husband’s parents know that he never wrote a thank-you note in his life, and this is my gig. Asking him about it is nothing but a dig at me, and I just want someone to tell me I’m right in thinking she should take a long walk.
Can you help?
I’ve no idea how he turned out so sweet
Dear Sweet,
You’re right — she’s out of line.Pointing out the bad manners of others is of course the height of bad manners itself.
But they won’t stop; this is what some parents do.That you’re on the right side of the question won’t help you, and the only thing you can change in the situation is your own behavior and reactions…and, to a certain extent, your husband’s.
First of all, decide to stop caring.It isn’t their business, really, and you shouldn’t devote any time to trying to manage the way they behave when it comes to the thank-you notes.You can, however, ask your husband not to report to you that they’ve asked about the thank-you notes of anyone besides themselves.They can do it; you do not want to hear about it.You understand that it annoys him too, you acknowledge that he has to hear them out, but you don’t want him to tell you about it, because it only stresses you out and makes you resent his parents.
And when you overhear him parrying their nosiness about the notes, as you did this time, remind yourself that this is just what they do, and you will get to the notes when you have time, which most of the actual recipients understand because they live in the world and they get that a new baby does not always permit 100-percent social correctness at all times.
If his parents ask you about the notes, rehearse this snippet so you can deliver it as flatly as possible before changing the subject: “Oh, it’s so sweet of you to concern yourself with other people’s thank-you notes.We’ll get to it soon!Now, how about this other topic?”Repeat.Repeat.Just decline to deal with it.Pair it with a cheery/patronizing smile, and resist the urge to defend yourself, or point out any more explicitly that it’s none of their beeswax.Tell your husband that this is the plan, and that you expect him to back the play with the same sort of rehearsed sentence: “It’s really nice that you’re so worried about your friends — we’re on it.NOW WE WILL TALK ABOUT FOOTBALL.”
Dear Sars,
My boyfriend of a year and a half is a recovered alcoholic who has been sober for almost three years. I didn’t know him when he was drinking, but I’ve heard about what is was like for him, which was: bad. He almost killed himself on several occasions, eventually ending up in the hospital with the possibility of never walking again without the assistance of a cane. (He fell off of a roof while partying.)
He recovered from that, and can walk fine now, but he is obviously carrying around some baggage from the past.
I’m not a huge drinker, but I enjoy a glass of wine or a beer socially. I never claimed to be a non-drinker when we got together; he knew I drank on occasion.
My problem is that when I do choose to drink, he always, without fail, will make me feel horrible about it. “You smell like booze,” “I didn’t know you would be drinking tonight,” and just an overall cold-shoulder treatment.
I never get drunk around him, and drinking isn’t a big deal for me, but if we go out with friends, I can’t touch anything without getting reprimanded. I feel like I’m an adult (I’m 20, he’s 24), and should be able to make my own decisions.Also, we live together, and I don’t bring alcohol home out of respect for him, so I’m not drinking when we are at home alone.
I’ve talked to him about this in the past, but I haven’t been able to make any progress. Although he says he actually doesn’t care if I drink, and I can do what I want, every time I do, he always becomes hostile.
Is there a better way to talk to him about this, without getting defensive and saying, “I should be able to do this”? Or should I just stop drinking around him altogether to avoid these situations?
Thanks for your help,
Staying sober
Dear Stay,
The next time it happens, remind him that he chose to date you although he knew you drink, and that it is unfair for him to punish you for choices that he’s really the one making.You do not drink to excess, you do not pressure him to drink, and you do not think it’s fair for him to expect a change in your behavior now.So, either he can live with you having an occasional margarita, or he can’t, and if he can’t, that will make you really sad — but it isn’t wrong.He just has to decide one way or the other: he can date a moderate drinker, or he can’t.
But if he can’t, he needs to end things with you.If he doesn’t want to do that, he can find a way to cope that doesn’t involve treating you like a recalcitrant teenager.
Look, some people in recovery just can’t spend any time around booze.It varies from person to person.But this is not about you, in the end; this is about him, and whether he feels comfortable sharing his life with someone who doesn’t share his by-necessity all-or-nothing approach to alcohol.And it’s fine if he doesn’t, but he doesn’t get to change those terms on you now and expect you to go along.
Yes, it’s important to be sensitive to his issues, and you should tell him that you care about him and you don’t want to make him uncomfortable or unhappy — you respect that he needs to set boundaries.But if these are the boundaries he wanted, he should have set them up front, and he shouldn’t be passive-aggressive about trying to reset them now.
There’s a difference between respecting his sobriety, and letting his bullshit slide because of it.It may not go your way, but if you don’t lay it out for him like this, you’ll keep having this issue and these arguments.He needs to work this out.Insist that he do so.
Hi Sars,
My cousin is pregnant with their second child, another little girl. They have asked me to be the godmother which, yay! But my aunt brought up the fact that I should throw a baby shower for her…am I wrong in assuming that baby showers are only for the first child? What are the rules about this?
My mother is pretty firm that there should not be another one, but my aunt is thinking it would really help them out as she (my cousin) is recently unemployed and her husband is a seasonal worker.
None of our other friends have two kids so I have no precedent to follow. Plus, the first child is only two years old and therefore my cousin still has the clothes, etc.
I’m not against the idea of it but I’m just wondering what the rules are. Plus, asking all her friends and family for more stuff…I just don’t know what to do. Part of me wants to simply ask her what she would like.
Any advice about second-baby baby showers?
Thanks,
Baby showers should not be this hard
Dear Shower,
I don’t know “the rules” either, but I think the rationale behind showers generally is to help with feathering the nest, for people just starting out — whether it’s a wedding or a baby, it’s about celebrating, and about getting the new couple or baby the basics.
So, once you’ve done it once…yeah, times are tough, but times are tough for everyone, so I would say that a party is fine, but to call it a shower is not, because some guests will feel that they should not have to spring for another onesie or Diaper Genie, which I think is legitimate.
Call it a party or a brunch, something that isn’t a shower; don’t mention gifts on the invitation or include any Babies ‘R’ Us registry-type information.If people ask, which some will, have a list or an online registry you can point them to, but if the idea behind the shower is your aunt’s belief that they’ll have trouble affording new baby things?Your aunt can buy them some new baby things.
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette kids the fam
I’ve heard of people doing Stock the Freezer parties for new babies, particularly non-firstborns. Everyone can celebrate the impending arrival of the little one, and instead of high-priced gifts, you bring a casserole or a stew or something that can help out the mom during those first several weeks where there’s no sleeping, much less any cooking. Sounds like it would be a good fit for a family that’s struggling to make ends meet, too.
Baby: Maybe the “first child” rule is a regionalism. My friends and family who have had babies have had baby showers every time (west coast and southwest).
THANK YOU.
Second showers (especially if the soon-to-be born is the same sex of the sibling) are a big pet peeve of mine. The purpose of a shower is to “shower” the receipient with the things they need to start a new chapter in their lives, it’s not an excuse to rake in more swag.
And family isn’t supposed to give showers anyway. Gah!
“The Vine: Novembama 5, 2008”
Awesome.
Baby- Showers for the second kid are pretty tacky, especially with a same sex child only two years older. For a friend in the same situation as your cousin, a few of us surprised her and took her out for afternoon tea and cooked casseroles and other frozen meals for the new mom in preparation for having a newborn and toddler at home. This may be a good alternative that’s easy to organize. Assuming your cousin has some freezer space.
@Shower: Can I make a suggestion? As a mother of four, I get that people want to celebrate new babies in people’s lives. But it sounds like your cousin probably doesn’t need any more stuff (and may not want any more, either). How about throwing a food shower? People bring stuff that can be put in the freezer for those crazy, hazy post-partum days and then reheated at a moment’s notice. When I had my second, friends did this for me (along with a spa gift certificate, which I also loved) and I appreciated the effort and help way more than any more clothes or stuffed toys.
I’m no expert but I thought a baby shower was expected for every baby?? That’s my impression here on the west coast. Your cousin can set up a baby registry so people can buy only stuff she needs. She can ask for gift cards because those are very helpful if she has everything else she needs.
It’s called a baby sprinkle when it’s for a subsequent child. Often occurs when the opposite sex. Sars advice is spot on.
http://www.baby-shower.com/themes/baby-sprinkle.html
according to wiki it’s called a diaper shower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_shower
Baby: Sars, thank you. The shower madness is out of hand. Have a party if you must, or suggest people bring over food or gift certifcates for take out once the baby is born, but seriously, no shower. Just no.
@Shower- I’ve wondered about this one myself because it came up in my circle of friends. Four of us from different parts of the country all agreed that it was a no-no and frankly kind of tacky. But it was for a close friend of ours and they were a bit tight on money and had some problems with their first kiddo, so we just shrugged it off and got them what they needed. And then the other three that had a second kid just didn’t have a party. No big. Anyway, here’s what Emily Post.com had to say about it:
Q. Is it proper to give a baby shower for a second baby? Some say that baby showers should only be given for the first born.
A. It is all right to have a baby shower for a second or third baby, as long as the guest list is comprised of guests who did not attend a shower for the first (and/or second) baby, with the exception of close friends and family members who would be upset not to be there.
I like that because it’s not asking the same people to pony up a second time. Or you can just do what Sar’s suggested.
To shower – check out http://www.etiquettehell.com/ for mostly baby shower don’ts (also wedding shower, bachelorette party etc.) and excellent reading about terrible showers. It does seem to indicate second showers are not proper and I really like Sars idea of the stock the fridge or just a party.
I don’t think one is ever a “recovered alcoholic.” I imagine that even the smell of alcohol coming from someone else is a trigger to drink, which seems to me a likely cause of the boyfriend’s coldness. “Staying sober” might have to decide if she can put up with an incompatibility in the drinking each partner can tolerate. Just my .02.
Sweet,
Sars is right that it isn’t any of your in-laws’ business whether you have written notes yet or not (or, rather: if they had raised a son with any manners, they could bug him about it. It is not their place to bug you). I am sure that your custom designed stationery is lovely, but I will just point out, kindly, that the reason to send a thank you note is to promptly thank the gift giver. If creating the stationery gets in the way of promptly thanking the gift giver, I would suggest that maybe you try to find a way to either pre-create stationery, or settle for generic stationery when you don’t have time to create and write within a reasonable timeframe.
As an example, a very good friend of mine got married several months ago. I had an extremely expensive gift shipped just before the wedding. It took them four months to acknowledge said gift becasue they were waiting for their thank you cards with wedding pictures to be printed. The card went in teh trash just the same: I woudl have appeciated finding out that teh gift arrived intact more.
(For the record, the definition of “reasonable timeframe” is generally one week for normal gifts, one month from weddings, and six weeks from a birth or birth-related event.)
Shower,
Generally one gives a “tea” for a second baby. Unlike a shower, no one is obligated to bring a gift, but those who want to, can.
@shower: On the flip side of the coin, I’m 7.5 mo along with #2 and will be having a shower in a couple of weeks – but it wasn’t my idea. I’m in a tight-knit Sunday School class of young married people, five of which are pregnant right now (three first babies, two second babies). The other 2nd-timer is having an opposite sex baby and is somewhat in financial need, so her MIL is throwing them a shower. The first time moms were all having showers thrown for them…and one friend in particular kept asking if I was having one. I kept answering that _I_ certainly wasn’t planning anything and hadn’t heard of anyone else planning anything, but that we really didn’t need any more stuff, so that was cool (we didn’t find out the sex for #1 or #2, so we’ve got lots of neutral stuff and no place for much more).
But my friend felt bad that I would be left out and decided that I needed a shower. I tried to get it to be a group shower with some of the 1st-time moms (they’d had personal ones in their hometowns, just not locally), but that didn’t work out and my friend went with a theme that was pretty specifically for me.
To my mind, this shower isn’t so much a way to help us get ready for a new baby (we’ve got almost all the stuff already) as it is a way to let my friend go nuts with the theme (definite check on that one!) and to celebrate new life. I registered for the bare minimum of stuff and only for stuff that we actually need (stuff that we didn’t know we needed last time like the electric pump).
But it all only came about because my friend insisted. And if your aunt is so insistent that your cousin needs more stuff (and that a shower’s the way to acquire it), then your aunt should throw the shower. My guess is that she realizes that it’s not usually done and thinks that this is the way to get it done without _her_ being the one making the faux pas. As a compromise, maybe offer to help her organize it if she’ll host it or something. Placation without it being your name on the invite.
I’ve always thought that showers are annoying enough for the firstborn. More than one strikes me as greedy. I don’t mind baby gifts – on the contrary, I love shopping for babies, everything’s so tiny and cute! – but I tend to resent the implication that it’s EXPECTED of me. I’m sorry if your finances suck, but so do mine, and it’s not my responsibility to make sure that you have a crib for the baby AND the toddler.
Sars is as usual correct about the non-shower and the stock the freezer party is an awesome idea! Two thoughts–make sure the family has a freezer (or access to one) that can hold all this food, and include the recipe with your card, so they have a file of easy make n’ freeze dinners for the future.
As for the thank you notes–wow, just because the in-laws are sublimating guilt about never writing a thank you in their lives, so they think it’s okay to get on your tits about it? Jebus. “NOW WE WILL TALK ABOUT FOOTBALL” should definitely go in the TN Glossary Of Terms.
It isn’t proper for family members to give showers, and it’s not correct etiquette to solicit gifts, EVER.
However, it’s always totally fine to throw a party, and why not celebrate the impending arrival of a new baby? Perhaps some of the family members could co-host it. Some people are going to want to give gifts, and of course that’s up to them, but the gifts shouldn’t be the focus of the party.
I’m not sure there are hard and fast rules about showers. We were thrown showers for both of our kids, three years apart. We had a slightly different set of friends from the first to the second, so I don’t think people felt put-upon. Also, while we did have almost everything we needed from our first baby, it was really nice to celebrate the impending arrival of the new baby. Who wants a second Diaper Champ, anyway?
Here’s another idea: I recently threw a joint shower for two friends, and it was book-themed. Everybody brought their fave childhood book, which was nice because it afforded a wide range of possible expense. I gave three books (and it was a miracle I could limit myself to that!) but other people brought one or one special edition hardcover or whatever. The “stock the fridge” idea is a good one, too.
I can’t remember hearing about a baby shower for a non-firstborn who wasn’t significantly younger than the next oldest sibling. For instance, my mom had my younger brother when my sister was 10 and I was almost 16. She had a shower before I was born in 1976, and this was now 1992. It made sense. When my youngest sister came along a mere 18 months later (surprise!), there wasn’t another shower. People gave her plenty of baby-girl gifts anyway, but there wasn’t a formal gift-giving occasion.
If the mom-to-be-again wants to have a party to celebrate, or someone throws her a party, that’s fine. But I wouldn’t stage it as a shower, just a celebration.
P.S. I love it when etiquette questions are covered here. My parents weren’t much for etiquette, as I was raised in a barn by hippie wolves, so I never knew that family members weren’t supposed to throw a shower until AFTER my sister threw me one. She was my maid-of-honor, and assumed it was part of her duties. Anyway, I have learned so much about etiquette from The Vine, even if it usually just makes me retroactively embarrassed.
Torn on the shower thing. I have not been asked to attend a second child shower yet, but I only have 1 close friend with a second child so far (but now that I think about it, I think I give a small gift beforehand and something after the birth). On one hand, it doesn’t seem fair to only have a party for the first child. On the other hand, its not like you’re throwing a birthday party for the first child and not the second.
If your instinct is to ask…why not ask? If she looks completely surprised/horrified, quickly be all “ha-ha, nevermind.” If she’s like, “Of course, I want a shower!” see if you can steer her towards the party without present-strings. The only problem I see there is if everyone but one or two people end up bringing gifts and then those couple people feel embarrassed or something. Not that there’s generally some sort of call-out on who really brought gifts and who didn’t.
Re: Baby – I’m with Kathleen that this is probably a regional thing. Where I live, a baby’s coming, it gets a shower. Usually people take turns giving them; my sister’s in-laws threw her first shower, I took the reigns when her second was on the way, with the help of her best friend and our mom. And I don’t know a single woman around here who doesn’t practically live for buying or making baby presents. So I would ask around to find out what the local customs and expectations are.
I’ll also point out that if the two kids aren’t too far apart, then gifts for a second-shower can be less about “feathering the nest” and more just “Yay, baby!” At the shower I held, gifts were optional, and everybody decorated bibs and onesies that Sis got to keep. If child #1 is already in school and his baby gear is long gone, though, I’d treat it like a first-born shower.
A coworker of mine recently had her second child – but her first child is almost 8. Our office threw her a shower (and I know she had at least one other family/friends shower), and I didn’t think anything of it. With that kind of time in-between, they didn’t have any kind of hand-me-downs, baby furniture, stroller, etc.
Could they have afforded the stuff? Sure. But I’d say it was a lot like having a first baby all over again, and I didn’t at all mind pitching in to help them out, even if it was “again” for them.
That being said, if I had a friend who children much closer together – probably within 4 years – I’d go for the “stock the fridge” kind of gift. I think part of having a shower of any kind is celebrating a big event in someone’s life, and while a second child might not be the same kind of overwhelming as a first child, it’s still a big deal.
One nice thing you can do with the second-baby celebration is to have some sort of a theme where people can make a contribution that is not necessarily monetary. Sometimes, for instance, a group of knitters will each knit a square of a certain size (they can use yarn they already have on hand if they like), then sew them together for a really special baby blanket, or a group of quilters will have a quilting bee for a baby quilt. If your friends and family aren’t so craftsy, you could just have a big picture frame mat for everyone to sign that can go to decorate the baby’s room. Or get a blank book everyone can write their good wishes or wisdom in to give to the child when she is older. One *first* baby shower I attended, the mother loved to read, and had gotten all the essentials from friends and family, so we (her coworkers) pooled our money together for a gift card from a bookstore, and presented her with a list of our favourite children’s books (either our own favourites from when we were kids, or parents’ favourite books to read to their own kids) to inspire her. It was a big hit. Anyway, you get the idea: there are creative ways to make a contribution (if you are so inclined) to the new baby, without spending big money and having a traditional-style baby shower that would be frowned upon by the etiquette police. :) While I understand the desire not to soak people for more gifts, there is something to be said for making the parents feel the new baby is just as special and welcome as the first, even though she’s not being showered with diaper genies and so on!
@Clare: I love that “Stock the Freezer” idea!
Baby: I am pregnant with our second child, and I would be mortified if anyone threw a shower for me. I would be uncomfortable with pretty much any kind of gathering prior to his/her birth, as any gathering in honor of a new child will be regarded by the attendees as a gift-giving occasion–it doesn’t matter what it is called. I find second showers appropriate only when there is a large (as in at least 6 years) age difference between the children. Most people close to the parents-to-be will send gifts for the second child anyway.
Several of my friends with second babies have had diaper showers — everyone brings a big box of disposables in the mom’s favorite brand in assigned sizes. This is a big help to the mom, because diapers are expensive, but it’s also easier for guests, because they aren’t that expensive. One of my friends did something similar, but everyone contributed to a gift certificate for a diaper service (for cloth diapers).
I really like these kinds of practical “second baby showers.” They help the parents, don’t unduly burden the guests and create an excuse for a party.
Thank-you notes — It’s not clear from the letter what Sweet’s husband is actually saying when his mom gets in his face about the thank-you notes. I hope he’s standing up for her. If I were in Sweet’s place, it would mean a lot to me to have a spouse who stood by my side when his parent(s) were being inappropriate, rather than a spouse who left me to twist in the wind.
And how come the husband can’t write the thank-yous to his relatives and his parents’ friends? I’m not married, but that’s what my sister (the mother of two, ages 4 1/2 and 2) does. Last time I checked, the ability to put pen to paper wasn’t like, linked to having an XX chromosome.
Baby showers: What Sars said. And what Lisa said. Nothing wrong with celebrating the newest member of the family, but not every gathering is meant to be a gift-giving occasion.
Ohmygod my MIL is the same way. I’ve even gotten chastised for not sending thank you notes when, in fact, I’ve sent HANDMADE cards, using photos of the event for which I’m extending thanks. They didn’t say “THANK YOU” in huge letters on the outside (despite the effusive paragraphs of gratitude expressed inside), so I heard “Oh, that was a thank you note??”
These are the same people that, after my husband sent flowers to his grandmother on her birthday (with a card that said “from your loving grandson”) got a lecture from his mother about what a thoughtless grandson he was – she ASSUMED the flowers were from her other son.
Some people just want to find fault, and Sars is right – you just have to take a deep breath and realize it’s totally their problem. I’m sorry – I know how painful it is to try so hard to do the right thing and still have this sort of outcome.
Dude, I can’t thank you enough for this letter and response. I live in Indiana and everyone I know has showers for every baby and every wedding (even the fourth – lookin’ at you BF’s mom!).
I had one friend who had three kids in consecutive years, it was insane! And to top it off, my stepdad’s family is HUGE and it seems like they are all having kids constantly!
THANK YOU for giving me something to point to when I have gift fatigue!
@Clare: I want to have one of those! Do you have to have a baby to have one?
Re: 2nd shower
I think you need to ask your cousin. The pressure you are receiving from her mom may well be just that – pressure from her mom. Showers are typically not hosted by immediate family members (mom, sister, etc.), but extended family such as a cousin isn’t uncommon. It could be that she is leaning on you because she doesn’t want to break the etiquette and do so herself. However, you being the godmother should have zero bearing on the situation.
As to it being the 2nd child – personally, I find this in poor taste. I have 2 boy, 3 years apart. I absolutely REFUSED to allow my friends and family to throw a 2nd shower for me. I may have relented had they been a decade apart, or if my 2nd was a girl. But seriously – my garage is STACKED with baby crap. I sure as hell didn’t need yet one more portable crib or musical developmental toy. No way. However my sister bitched and moaned until she got her 2nd shower a mere 16 months after the birth of her first baby! Too each their own I suppose.
Ask your cousin – she may be as embarrassed to hear that her mom’s grubbing for more gifts as you are. Alternately, maybe they really are hurting, and a diaper and formula shower would be just the thing. You won’t know til you ask.
I think the only time second showers are acceptable is if there is a large (like 10+ year) gap between babies or some similar situation.
I think having a welcoming party for the new baby is a great idea, but gifts should not be expected.
I’m pregnant with my second. I think the idea around another shower is just a party, with smaller gifts, just because don’t you always go to someone’s house or event with something in hand? (how about a new, not-chewed-on board book?). And you know what? From my perspective, it’s probably even more appreciated by a harried pregnant mama to have a little attention and love from her family and friends. Those in absolute disagreement should probably politely have other plans, because I highly doubt anyone is looking to rake in the baby swag! I am still reeling from all the pink “thank god for little princesses” branded gear from two years ago.
Love the idea of the Stock the Freezer party. Baby swag, no. Lasagna, yes!
Pretty much all etiquette books say that a shower for a second baby is in bad taste. I guess there could be exceptions–a mom who has a new baby later in life when her other kids are grown or practically so comes to mind–but there’s no reason to have a full-blown shower for a mom with a two year old. What about a “Pamper Party” instead? Nothing baby themed or cutesy, more like a cocktail party where everyone brings a package of diapers. No wrapping. No pastels. Just a grown up party where the gift to your hostess is a box of diapers instead of a bottle of wine.
Note-obsessed in-laws – That was an episode of “Everybody Loves Raymond”! And my advice during that show, shouted at the TV, was, “Move, dammit! Leave no number or forwarding address!” But then, that was my advice to “Debra” during pretty much every episode.
Back on this planet, I guess the real answer is, “Uh huh, uh huh, right, yeah, we’ll take care of it, okay, bye bye now!” Which is pretty much what Sars said, I think. :)
Sober: He sounds scared, and understandably so. Maybe over time he’ll relax somewhat and realize that it’s up to him to stay on the wagon, and he can do it. But he can’t dictate what others do. I hope he stays well and healthy and you’re able to work it out!
Second shower: Personally, I think it depends on who we’re talking about. I mean, if it’s someone I really want to throw a shower for, I’d do it. If not, then I’d go with presents. Nobody should be forced to throw a shower … I have a friend who just threw a second shower for someone who sounds, to me, like a particularly difficult individual. The friend’s boyfriend, father of her first son and of her expected second, tried to renege on even contributing to the shower, stating that “(His) gift was in (her) belly.” I’d have punched him, but my friend is too nice for that. But it didn’t help my opinion of second showers, that’s for sure.
@BetsyD
Have an aunt who’s a recovered alcoholic. Her husband drinks; last time my husband and I were there he shoved glasses in our hands and poured a glass of red before we’d even sat down. You can choose how to respond to your triggers. And she was necking a LOT of vodka to get through the day before she dried out, so it’s not that she wasn’t really an alcoholic. She was and still is.
This situation might just be one of those things that’s not meant to be.
(Hee. Agreement with Margaret.)
Actually, my understanding was that the baby shower was for the *baby*– yes, it gives the parents many helpful things, when it’s the first one, but it’s also stuff to celebrate a special new person coming into the world, kind of a “0th Birthday Party.” I don’t think it’s regional– I’m from the Northeast, many of my friends are in the Southeast, and we’ve all done showers for second (and third) kids.
There’s no specific etiquette that I know of as to who’s “supposed” to give it– the first one is supposed to be the former maid/matron of honor, but most showers these days are usually given by a close female friend, and in one instance a cousin, as I recall. If the aunt is so eager for it, perhaps *she* should give one. Typically, though, there’s a note on the invitation to indicate this is a subsequent child, so that people know it’s not intended as a major-swag event. For the most recent one I attended (about a year ago), most of us brought newborn outfits and small baby toys and cute widdle socks… the proud grandparents got together on a second carseat, since the first child was still using one, but that was the only “major” gift in the room.
The moms-to-be also found the shower helpful as another way to accustom their existing child to the idea of Baby. (“Look! Clothes that don’t fit you! Yes, this is going to be an ACTUAL person with things of her own!”) (Okay, I admit to some third-child rancor in that last sentence. I had a LOT of hand-me-downs.) Checking Wikipedia, I note that subsequent showers are sometimes called “diaper showers” to indicate a smaller-scale event. Personally, I don’t know why people get upset at second baby showers. I think it’s a bit feudal to say a celebration of birth should be reserved solely for the firstborn. I mean, do you not give birthday gifts to the later kids either, then?
I think the only kind of appropriate shower for a subsequent baby is a diaper shower (or a stock-the-freezer party as per Clare). Most of your friends will want to do something for you and the new baby anyway, and that way they do so according to their own budgets, without making the focus of the party be on stuff acquisition.
I had a diaper shower for my third baby, because my friends really wanted to have a party for me, and diapers were the only thing I wanted or needed. The stock-the-freezer party is a new one for me, but I’ll totally be swiping that idea!
Showers for second babies really just depend on too many factors for there to be a hard and fast rule. In my circles, we INSIST on throwing a shower for every baby because we want any excuse to buy baby stuff and celebrate. It’s just that the gifts tend to shift from diaper genies and other big-ticket, expensive items, to stuffed animals and shirts that say “Dingo Snack.” But I think to some people, showers are just to help the mother get settled, and fun gifts for the baby come after the baby’s born, when people stop by to go “awwww.” My advice would be to try to get a general feel for what people expect.
I will just respectfully disagree with the idea that the shower is for the baby. You give birthday presents to younger kids because the kids are there to enjoy them. The baby is, by definition, not around to open yet another Diaper Genie. Presents for the new baby are perfectly acceptable in general, but a shower is the only type of event at which a present is an obligation of attending, because the present is the entertainment and the point of the gathering. That is only appropriate in cases where the parents can be reasonably expected to not already have received Diaper Genies eighteen months ago.
@Sober – I agree that there is no “recovered” – only “recovering”. And his recovery isn’t your problem or for you to manage. If you are going to stay together, I very strongly recommend you check out Al-Anon, which is designed for friends & loved ones of addicts (recovering & active). It’s a great place to get support to keep your life yours, and not take on worrying about him. Good luck!
re: Showers – I’m pregnant with #3, and didn’t expect or have showers with #2 or this one. But I got lots of meals (not frozen – one gift was 2 weeks of delivered meals – heaven!) and I would love that again, for certain! Oh, and chipping in for a housekeeper for a few weeks would be lovely too. But no need to create a whole shower-type party, unless there is a cultural expectation of that.
Staying Sober: My father, an alcoholic who took many, many trips to rehab over many, many years before recovery stuck, used to have great saying when people asked if he minded if they drank in front of him. He’d say “it doesn’t bother me when you drink; it bothers me when I drink.” But that was him. While I agree that you have every right to drink whenever you want and I believe that your boyfriend knew that you drank when you started your relationship, I think you are underestimating how incredibly difficult it is to get sober and stay that way. Your boyfriend isn’t a recovered alcoholic … there is no such thing. He is a recovering alcoholic. Hopefully he’ll stay in recovery for the rest of his life but I think that if your drinking bothers him, you should stop doing it when you are going to be around him. To me, it seems like a really small sacrifice for someone you love.
LMAO @ the “Dingo Snack” shirt.
Sober: What country do you live in? It wasn’t clear from the letter (that I could tell), but if you’re in States, you technically don’t have a leg to stand on for another year. Yeah, I know, everybody drinks underage, but you still don’t have much of an argument.
In any case, I agree with those who say that if you want to be around your guy, you’re going to have to forego the alcohol. Booze is fun, sure, but it’s not as important as a relationship. If you’re not willing to give up the occasional glass of wine for the sake of someone you love, who is facing a lifelong struggle against that particular substance, you might want to start looking for an apartment by yourself.
In reading these MIL stories, (both the letter to the Vine and in the comments) my first thought is that the problem lies not with the in-laws (who clearly are in the wrong) but with the husbands. Why are they allowing their parents to be so rude to their wives? My sister has a TERRIBLE mother-in-law, the stories I could tell you, to the point where it almost ended her marriage. Finally, after about 10 years of it, she finally got her husband to meet with a marriage counsellor, (I suspect he thought the counsellor would agree with him) and the counsellor explained very clearly that his parents are HIS to deal with, and her parents are HERS to deal with. In EVERYTHING. My BIL always left my sister to handle his mom’s craziness and accused my sister of exaggerating or lying about the things his mom said or did. Once he had to start dealing with her, it didn’t take long for him to realize that his mom was the problem not his wife.
These husbands need to have this explained to them. It is his mother, not hers, therefore she has no obligation to put up with rudeness. The guys need to tell their parents to quit it, and not tell their wives the stupid things they are saying.
I had a nice mother-in-law, thank god.
Oh, and YEAH FOR OBAMA!!!!
Dear Staying Sober,
I can not stress this to you enough – GET OUT. Out. Unless you are willing to stop drinking completely, get out of the relationship. If you curb your drinking, you will end up resenting him. If you keep drinking, he will resent you. After months and years of this, your relationship will end in catastrophe. Seriously – think about this. The central issue to your relationship is ALCOHOL USE. That means it is not the right relationship for you, a responsible drinker; and him, a recovering alcoholic.
I have been through this. It does not end well. He is not mature enough in his sobriety (How long does that take? Who knows, my ex had been sober for 11 years when we met) to be in a relationship with someone who can drink responsibly.
This will not get better unless you both are willing to enter counseling. He’s not going to just “get okay” with you drinking. And it doesn’t sound like you’re willing to maintain abstinence.
I am so sorry to lay it out for you like this. This is heartbreaking. I know, I’ve been there. But seriously, would you sit around a diabetic eating doughnuts all day? And someone who can’t eat sugar should know better than to fall in love with someone who loves candy.
My best to you both.
Staying sober: what others have said. I’m either reealllyyy good or reealllyyy bad at drinking, however you choose to see it, so I don’t anymore. My fiance does, and I’m cool making his margaritas. That’s me. Others in my situation can’t be around it. The important bit is that my sobriety is my responsibility, and so is Mr. Passive Aggressive’s. He need to figure out if his girlfriend drinking threatens his sobriety, and if so, clearly ask her not to drink or get of the relationship. That he doesn’t seem to be clear about his needs in this area is, to me, the real problem, and it is his responsibility to get clear with himself and be clear with her. If she’s cool with not drinking around him, that’s great, but she can’t know what to do until he tells her, and that he can’t or won’t…that’s a problem that he might want to discuss with his sponsor, if he has one.
Dingo snack! Ha!
Re shower: My understanding has always been that a shower, in general, is for the first baby. A scaled-down second shower is acceptable if:
–The new kid is of the opposite sex, so you don’t have clothes (this one is pushing it for me…)
–It’s been a LONG time between babies (>5 years) and so you’ve probably given everything away
–You’ve moved or something and have all new friends (also pushing it a bit)
For a baby with a 2-year old sibling of the same sex? No, and it’s considered tacky (and it’s also considered tacky for family to host showers). I agree with others that if you REALLY want to do something (which, mind you, the person didn’t seem to), you can have a party of some sort, but make it clear that it’s not a shower.
Now, I will say that if your sister is your only bridesmaid, the etiquette snobs should look the other way when she throws you a bridal shower. If she’s one of several bridesmaids, she can write a check to the others and keep quiet.
I’ve been reading all the shower responses with intense personal interest. I am expecting my first baby in April. My husband and I moved here less than a year ago, and while we have made a few close friends, we by no means have a network of friends or a support system. Both sets of relatives are far away – very far away. Hubby’s from a culture where they don’t do showers. I would love a shower but realistically I know that’s not going to happen. Who would throw it and who would come? And I say that not to feel sorry for myself – that’s not my style, I’m happy to be here and happy with the small number but close friends we have. But realistically, no shower and I would feel very uncomfortable if there was one. However, in a few years from now, when we have more of a group of friends and perhaps a second baby on the way, I would not be appalled if someone threw me a shower then! :) But I don’t want to do anything rude or incorrect.
Oh my God, there are so many rules. I’ve never heard most of this stuff about showers. I can’t remember whether I’ve attended showers for second babies or not, to be honest. I’ve attended showers, but…second babies, I could not say.
I just want to say this in defense of people like me who may have never even heard of half of this stuff, please be gentle and try not to assign too much importance to one lapse. It really freaks me out when people say things like, “I would be HORRIFIED if [something something],” because…wow. As long as it’s people whose intentions are good and you know that they care about you, try not to be horrified. Just a message from someone who sometimes does the wrong thing.
Word on the practical gift thing for subsequent babies, but as I think someone mentioned up thread, most people will buy something for the baby when it arrives anyway, whether there’s a shower or not (baby clothes, so tiny, so cute! Well except the T-shirt I saw a kid wearing yesterday which read “I started life with a midwife” what I am supposed to feel I have an inferior child because I used an obstetrician? )
Maybe Sweet’s in-laws can offer to mind her son for a few hours to give her a chance to sit down in front of the TV with her feet up and write the thank-you notes if they are so damn invested in them. Jesus, working full time with a really young child, people should just be grateful you are upright with clothing relatively free of vomit.