The Vine: April 16, 2008
So, picture this: You’re a 27-year-old woman, you’re a young professional finishing up grad school and you have recently become engaged to your boyfriend of seven years. You live with this boyfriend, boyfriend has been a fixture at family gatherings, so the impending nuptials…not surprising. To anyone. In the Western hemisphere. Barefoot Masai children in Africa knew this was coming.
The problem: My mom. She is Not Into It(tm). The wedding, the idea of me getting married, the idea of people getting married in general — not interested. It’s not that she’s hostile per se, it’s just that, well, we’ve been engaged for over four months and she has yet to initiate any conversation involving the wedding.
In the beginning, I’d call her with little, early planning details like “do you like this bridesmaid dress?” or “do you think these invitations are worth that crazy price??” and she just says “oh, whatever, I’m sure it’s fine” and changes the subject. After a month or two, I stopped bringing it up at all to see if maybe it was just too soon, that maybe she was having trouble adjusting to the impending marriage of her only child (again, was not a surprise, this engagement), blah blah issue-cakes, but…time has passed, planning is moving forward, venues are being booked, and there’s still no enthusiasm. Nothing. I emailed her pictures of my last dress-hunting excursion. Reply? “That’s a lot of white dresses.” The few conversations we HAVE had can pretty much be summed up by “why don’t you guys just elope?” and “do you REALLY need to have a reception?”
Sars, seriously, what the hell? I cannot for the life of me figure out where this is coming from. We have an otherwise good, functional mother/daughter relationship. My mom and I have always been close, we talk two to three times on the phone per week and she used to always say “oh, I can’t WAIT to help you plan your wedding” and now that it’s happening, I’m getting a resounding “…Meh.” I’m sure that she likes Fiancé and his family, so I don’t think that’s the problem. She and my Dad are still married, though they’re endlessly crabby with each other, but hey, when you’ve been married 37 years, it happens.
I thought at first it was because she was embarrassed at not being able to contribute very much to the wedding (both of my parents are retired) but we’ve never asked them for money for the wedding, even though she offered in the past. When I try to ask her if something is wrong, she ignores the question, changes the subject, or tells me I’m being silly. I’ve been trying to just pass it off as her having trouble dealing with this big life change, but I’m seriously starting to get my feelings hurt.
Any advice? I don’t expect her to do back flips or shell out ten grand for monogrammed doves or anything, but is it too much to ask that she show some amount of interest in her only daughter’s wedding? Thanks!
My wedding colors are “meh” and “whatever”
Dear Meh,
Maybe, instead of asking her if something’s wrong, you ought to tell her that something is wrong — namely, that her lack of enthusiasm is confusing and hurtful to you. Tell her what you just told me, that she used to talk excitedly about helping you plan the wedding but now you feel like you’re boring her.
But before you do that, think about what happens next, after the conversation, because a cinematic “you’re right, honey, I’m sorry,” followed by a full emotional investment in the details, is, sad to say, probably not on the menu. What if you are boring her — do you want to know that? The “enough detail, just tell me where to stand” attitude does tend to be more of a dad thing, but it is what it is; if she doesn’t care about card stock, she doesn’t. Do you want her to fake it? It’s not wrong to want that, or to expect it at a mannerly minimum, but would you feel comfortable saying so outright — and then knowing that any animated response she has going forward is probably on orders from you? I don’t intend this as an interrogation of you, but: see the first sentence of this graf.
It does sound like something else is going on here — like there’s some sort of deep-seated resentment or envy going on, which she is trying to avoid revealing by side-stepping the subject. But if it is something like that, that she’s envious of your happiness and dissatisfied in her own marriage…do you want to know that about your parents’ relationship? I’m not saying she isn’t acting kind of a fool, because she is, but it’s possible that she’s trying to shield you from issues in her own emotional life.
I do think, with all that said, that you should tell her how you feel, because you don’t want to have not tried, and then to have that between you after you’re married. Tell her she’s hurting your feelings, and you don’t know what the problem is, if there even is one per se, and she doesn’t have to talk about it with you; she’s going to do what she’s going to do, you can’t make her care — but you wanted her to understand where you’re at. But before you do that, know that wherever she’s at may not sync up with what you want.
Hi Sars,
I’m marking student exams in a defamation law course. There’s a question in there about whether Rex has the capacity to sue in defamation. A student has replied: “Rex can not sue, because he is a dog.”
To me the correct statement would be “Rex cannot sue because he is a dog.” But a housemate pulled me up on making this correction, saying they meant the same thing. I looked up a grammar/language text, and instead of backing me up, “cannot” and “can not” are listed as alternates! Sars, can this be??
To me the problem with the use of “can not” as above is twofold. First, it’s hard on the eyes when you read it, and I’d imagine tripping over it if reading it aloud. Second, I think these sentences have substantively different meanings. To illustrate: the only time I can imagine using “can not” would be in a sentence like “I can go, or I can not go; I haven’t made up my mind.” Reading this aloud, the emphasis is on “not,” making the “can” more indicative of the fact that you’ve got options either way.
I’m considering not taking marks off — I know what they mean, and they got the legal point right. But should I pick it up (as I would a spelling error) as something they should correct in their writing? Or are both statements correct?
All this thought, for what has to be the stupidest exam question in the world
Dear Exam,
My instinct is to agree that “cannot” implies “is not able or allowed to,” while “can not” implies “is able or allowed not to.”
I don’t know what sources you checked, but Garner is unequivocal: “[C]annot should not appear as two words, except in the rare instances when the not is part of another construction (such as not only…but also[.]”
Splitting it into two words alters the meaning, and usage rules exist not to harass students but to enhance clarity. Case in point here; mark off for it.
Hi Sars,
I think you are almost scarily wise about all things so I come to you for advice. I have two friends, Paul and David, who started doing drugs about three years ago or so. In fact, everyone in my circle of friends did (including me). It started out no big deal, the occasional E while at a circuit party but eventually we all started going out once a week instead of once a month and adding GHB and crystal meth into the mix. I never cared for the meth, and eventually I started going out less and less, as did my other friends. We all stopped except for Paul.
David (Paul’s boyfriend) was upset at Paul for continuing on with the drugs and doing them more and more often. Paul would OD on the G and would basically go into a state that resembled Linda Blair in The Exorcist. I’m not exaggerating in any way when I say this. I don’t know how familiar you are with the drug, but when someone “falls out” on it, they make strange animal noises, bark like a dog, rip off all their clothes, etc. etc. According to David, it got to the point that Paul was doing this on a daily basis.
We all tried to get David to leave, but he insisted that if he did Paul would die. Well, at that point, I think David had two choices: leave him, or join him. And he chose to join him. And three weeks ago, David “fell out” and died. David. Not Paul.
Sars, I’m still so angry at Paul I can’t speak to him. Another friend of ours (Tim) has been by Paul’s side these last three weeks, talking with him into the wee hours of the morning and basically being his only friend. The rest of us barely spoke to Paul at the funeral and haven’t contacted him since. Tim (my best friend) is angry at me for not speaking to Paul and has basically accused me of being selfish. He points out (rightly) that David was an adult and responsible for his own choices.
Oh, and here’s the kicker; according to Tim, Paul doesn’t think he’s addicted and doesn’t need therapy or rehab; he gets angry if Tim brings it up. I told Tim that he should cut off all contact with Paul until he agrees to get help. Tim says if he does that, Paul will surely go back to using and probably die himself. I of course don’t want that but I can’t let go of my anger. Not sure if it’s relevant, but I was much closer to David and Tim was much closer to Paul.
So I guess my questions are as follows. Am I being selfish not talking to Paul? If I do talk to him, what should I say? Is Tim doing the right thing? What’s the right answer here?
Stuck
Dear Stuck,
I wouldn’t call it selfishness, no. Directing a lot of emotions at Paul that he doesn’t entirely have responsibility for, probably — grief, survivor’s guilt — but that’s how it goes sometimes with the intense emotions that come with something like this, and that being the case, it’s likely better for everyone that you stay out of Paul’s way for a while.
So, you’re doing the right thing for you, and Tim’s doing the right thing for him, because that’s how it’s going for him right now. He’s worried about Paul, which is valid, and he’s afraid taking a hard line with Paul will end with Paul destroying himself, which is also valid; less than a month after David’s death I’m not sure going all Intervention on Paul is going to get results. And even if it did, it wouldn’t bring David back. Nothing would. That’s what everyone in this situation is trying to cope with, and there isn’t a “right answer” to that, no matter who’s “responsible.”
Do what you need to do for yourself right now (and try to exclude drug use from that), but be aware at the same time that that’s what Tim’s doing. Your anger is yours; you don’t have to let go of it until you’re ready, but it’s yours, not Tim’s.
Tags: friendships grammar the fam
Wow, Meh is stupidly lucky! When I announced my engagement, I made it clear that I wanted a simple, low key event, and my entire family expressed that this was ok with them. I told my mother I’d be happy to listen to some suggestions, but that ultimately, I got the final word on everything. She agreed to this. Two weeks in the future (the wedding was still over a year away, I did not even want to talk about it yet), she’s hounding me every day about favours (No, I don’t want to give tiny bells with ribbons on to anyone), and attempting to book caterers and venues without even consulting me. I even found out later from my father that she was intending to do certain things anyway, even though I wanted nothing to do with those traditions.
The party planning made it two months before I called the whole event off. As much fun as the shindig could have been, I was not putting up with this hyper-involvement any longer. Perhaps Meh can become pen pals with my mother?
Soooo….I’m dying to know. What recourse does Rex have against the alleged defamer if he can’t sue? And how was his caninely reputation sullied?
As alternatives, I would suggest that Rex forego any natural tendency to bite, because there could be deadly consequences for him; I therefore am inclined to think he could pee, poop, or barf on the belongings of the person(s) whom he would like to sue; alternatively, he can seek a more passive retribution by shedding on said person(s), and his/her belongings, especially clothing and furniture.
Chewing one of every pair of shoes is good, too.
@ Meh:
Depending on the age of your mother, is it possible she is menopausal? When my mum went through menopause, she underwent nothing short of a total personality change and became … well … a total bitch. She wouldn’t take any HRT and we just toughed it out for a couple of years, and now the sweet loving woman I knew is back. But if I had been getting married at the time … yeesh. A reaction not dissimilar to the one you are getting, I imagine.
Since I have a very sensitive mother I am wondering if the mother of the bride is upset becasue her offer to help pay was rejected.
Hee! I’m the exam marker. The question was loosely based on a real life legal action, where a dog’s owners tried to sue in defamation on behalf of the dog – he was a “celebrity dog” who appeared in a number of commercials. I think an argument was put that his professional reputation was sullied by a look-alike dog being used in a parody ad, or something. The response letter to the defamation claim went: “Sir, your client is a dog. I believe that resolves the matter.”
Awwwwesome. I’m quitting my newspaper job to study dog law.
They should have sued for brand infringement or something, not defamation. Doesn’t it weaken your product if a lookalike product is out there?
And I sympathize with Meh, and agree that maybe medical issues should be looked into. Is she a wet blanket about everything, or just the wedding?
If it’s not medical, I would say “Jesus effing Christ, mom, this is my wedding! I’m only going to do this once — or three or four times at the maximum! Why are you acting like you don’t care?”
Then again, my parents moved to another country and gleefully “cut all ties” with the one I happen to live in, so I’m not the best judge of mother-daughter relationships.
To Meh:
My mother pulls the same sort of thing when good things happen that she doesn’t have a direct hand in. My husband thinks it’s jealousy, I think it’s a control issue, but I’ve come to realize that the “why” doesn’t matter. The only thing I can control is my reaction, and I’ve found that if I disengage as well, she eventually starts taking an interest. Maybe not as healthy a suggestion as Sars, but it does avoid the potential messiness that the “Why are you acting like this?” conversation can cause. It’s your wedding–don’t let your mom ruin it for you. Congratulations, by the way!
To Meh:
I agree with some above that this might be a financial issue. She might feel bad that she’s not able to help, as she always pictured this day being something she and your dad did for you. Or she might feel bad that you’ve chosen to pay for it yourself and didn’t give her the option, and she thought she would be making more decisions and expected to have a financial say in it. Or she might just hate the idea of you spending your money on one day– this would be my parents’ reaction: they’re so cheap they hate to even see me spend my money on the things that I care about. But all of these options come out of love and guilt, so I’d cut her some slack, but definitely try and figure out what’s bothering her, because the rest of the wedding business is stressful enough without worrying about what your mom thinks the whole time.
Good luck and congratulations! Have a great time on the day.
To Meh:
The situation sounds really frustrating. I think Sars is right that you might need to exercise caution in asking your mother why she’s like this, but with caution I think you should ask. My own mother showed no interest in the most important exams of my life, despite me trying on numerous occasions to talk about them. I really felt totally unsupported and lonely the whole time. When I finally just asked (afterwards) if she hadn’t been interested she said she hadn’t wanted to add to pressure on me (which of course had just added to the pressure!)
I agree with Sars take on the Paul/Tim situation. Stuck, you feel how you feel, and maybe in a strictly logical sense Paul isn’t responsible for David’s death. But he did contribute to it, and if you feel angry about that, that’s ok. Different circumstances too long to go into, but a similar principle-I blamed my mother for my grandmother’s death (still do, in some ways, but I’ve forgiven her now and moved on) and was very angry. For months afterwords, if she brought Grandma up I changed the subject because I was afraid if we continued to discuss it I’d explode and say something un-take-backable. It sounds like you are in a similar place, so I think its best that you avoid Paul until you can be sure that won’t happen. And you don’t need to feel guilty about it, either.
Hi there! Meh, chiming in. So, happened and there was no drama and, amazingly, it was lovely and nothing went wrong. I DID talk to my mom about her lack of interest, and no, there was no Lifetime Original Movie moment of clarity. I think in the end it boiled down to a combination of things, not the least of which is the fact that she is a bit of a type A planner/control freak and she wasn’t interested in giving advice that I might not completely appreciate or use. In the end, she went on and on about how perfectly the wedding went off, and let me tell you, NOT without a sizable helping of surprise. Which… kinda typical of her (Bridget, your Mom and my Mom should get together for coffee…)
Thanks for the congrats! I’m now kind of thoroughly embarrassed, as pretty much everybody I know reads Tomato Nation and is going to be thinking “wait… I think I went to this wedding…”
Normally Sars is the one to get the good lines in but I kind of loved “Barefoot Masai children in Africa knew this was coming.” Nicely done Mrs. Meh.
Mrs. Meh, thanks for the update. I often wonder about the outcome and you have provided the answer.
As a purely administrative aside, if leaving comments open means we regularly get replies from the question-askers, I’m all for ’em!
Mrs. Meh, my sister had the same issue with my mom, who was disinclined to even go wedding dress shopping with her. My sister had imagined that moment where Mom gets all teary-eyed and says, my baby is all grown up. What did my mom actually say? “Four thousand dollars?? For a dress???”
I recently rewatched Father of the Bride with Spencer Tracy and Elizabeth Taylor. Weddings have definitely gotten bigger and more expensive since our parents’ days.
@ Stuck – when you are ready, I strongly advise checking out somewhere like Al-Anon. You have definitely been impacted by addicts’ use, and that is a great place full of people who understand how you are feeling and how to detach from the destructive behaviors of others. You might also want to read the book “Broken”, by William Cope Moyers. He was a hard-core addict and reading about it helps see a bit of that side. Good luck with your healing. It’s a hard road.
@ Mrs. Meh and Exam – so cool that you both checked in!
I recommend Al-Anon with reservations. Despite their PR, they are religious–which is fine if that’s you. If it’s not, the God-speak will be an issue as it is embedded in the group process.
Good point on Al-Anon, Red. The 12 Step programs are all about the “Higher Power” – and that’s something to be ready for.
12-step-programs are meant to be spiritual, not religious. Yes, they speak of a Higher Power, but members are free to define that Higher Power however they wish. Talk of specific religious concepts is supposed to be discouraged. In Al-Anon, the word “God” is used, but it seems like a shortcut for a concept that would take several more words to adequately describe.
Still, many members do speak of “God” in the Christian sense.
Anyway, Al-Anon or Nar-Anon might be helpful for Stuck. If you decide to go, and it’s overtly religious (whether you’re religious or not), try a different meeting. It’s likely that one isn’t working how it’s supposed to. Good luck finding what you need.
Stuck – I’ve lost friends and family members due to drug use. I also had a short childhood as both of my parents, as well as some family members, were dealers as well as users. As a teen, the state/judge/family courts forced me to attend Al-Anon and Nar-Anon. It wasn’t helpful. Believe it or not reading Co-Dependent No More was. At least when it came to dealing with my anger/rage. I don’t know if this would help you, but I thought that I would offer it up.
Agreeal, Brickton, Mrs. Meh’s letter was quite amusing. I totally want me some monogrammed doves! That sounds awesome.