The Vine: April 20, 2011
I know most of the Tomato Nation readers seem to be cat people, but this question concerns dogs. I’m reaching out because I know how you feel about pets, and I agree. They are members of the family and a life-long responsibility, damn it! Right now I’m facing a situation where if I don’t step up, two dogs may be taken to a shelter, and I really don’t want that to happen.
The story behind all this: I feel responsibility for this situation based on the fact that I moved back in with my mom prior to her purchasing these puppies, and I’ve grown to love them.
Long story short, my mom decided to buy a Rottweiler puppy early in 2010 “for protection,” despite the current home situation being completely unsuited for caring for and training a large-breed dog. I tried to talk her out of it, but came home to the puppy after a weekend out of town. Added bonus? The puppy in particular was chosen because my mom thought she was “spunky.” My sister was there for the purchase, and the more accurate description for the later-nicknamed “Cujo”? Extremely hyperactive, aggressive with her litter-mates, and not inclined to follow commands from her breeder.
She proved incredibly difficult to train, even with the help of two paid professional dog trainers. By this I mean we FINALLY got her biting under control, but commands continue to be hit-and-miss, she is destroying the carpet and furniture, and God forbid she is biting/eating something dangerous or expensive. There is no way she’s letting go if she doesn’t want to, even when bribed with steak or chicken.
Then, a few months ago, my mother brings home another puppy she saw at a pet store, because she thought the Rottweiler just needed company to calm her down. This was not a good fix, since now there are two poorly trained dogs destroying the house and yard, and being undependable when it comes to obeying commands.
I believe they can be good dogs in the hands of an experienced dog-owner. I take them to dog parks and they both respond very well to anyone with experience, which I don’t have. Understand that I have been the primary caretaker of both dogs since day one, since my mom has basically ignored them since buying them. I walk them, feed them, and am their most consistent trainer, even though I know next to nothing about training or dogs. Yes, trainers were hired, but I couldn’t be there for the appointments, and so far my mom hasn’t followed up on anything. She spends most of her time home upstairs away from the dogs, and works a demanding job that keeps her away for most of the day. Even on weekends, she stays in her room most of the time and the dogs aren’t allowed upstairs because they are so destructive. She has little contact with them, which is why I’m trying to do my piss-poor best with them since I am currently living here.
Long story short, both dogs are purebred breeds known to be “work dogs,” very intelligent, and need to be exercised daily and kept occupied to keep them out of trouble. So far what I’ve been doing hasn’t been working, and my mother has reached the point where she wants to take them to a shelter. I’ve never been a dog person (I’ve always said that dogs were as high-maintenance as children, and at least children make Mother’s Day cards), but I’ve fallen in love with them. Also, knowing her record of not researching the best options, I’m afraid of coming home only to find out she’s taken them to a kill shelter. For the record, when she has brought this up, I have mentioned no-kill shelters/rescue organizations, but trust me, based on her past actions I have every reason to fear the dogs being taken to a shelter that kills without my knowledge.
I will be moving out in two months, and want one last chance to learn how to control them so I can take them with me. I’m currently working from home, so I have the time to spend a lot of time on them, if I know what to do. Can the Tomato Nation readers point me towards books, classes, or techniques that will help me rehabilitate these dogs? I’ve asked other owners at dog parks, looked on Google, bought books, watched Cesar Milan, and tried to be consistent. Clearly I am worse at dog training than I originally thought.
As far as I can tell, my options are to boot-camp my training techniques to keep them myself, or personally take them to a rescue organization that will adopt them to better families. I welcome advice on either option, since my only concern is their well-being, and I am VERY out of my element right now.
Just Want What’s Best
Dear Best,
First of all, give yourself a break. You describe your efforts as “piss-poor,” but it sounds to me like you’re trying all the right things — and more importantly, you’re trying. Training pets takes time and patience, especially when the animal is, uh, “spunky,” so don’t get too discouraged.
Second of all, good news: you have myriad online resources at your disposal. Whether it’s training, rescue, or just blogs or message boards where owners congregate, finding information about purebred dogs is super-easy.
We’ll see what the readers have to say — and I hope you’ll come back and let us know what breed the second dog is, so that they can get into specifics there — but in the meantime, I’d suggest 1) kill-shelter-proofing the situation as best you can, and 2) looking in your area for dog trainers or obedience schools.
For 1), if the dogs have papers, try to get those papers off your mom. Tell her that you will take responsibility for the dogs from now on, and that you will need her to turn over their files and information. Don’t ask. Inform her that this is happening, without any value statements about her “treatment” of them. Get the dogs chipped if you haven’t already, with your contact information, not your mother’s; if they already have the microchips, get the information switched. Then, if the dogs show up at a kill shelter, you can hope that somebody down there will scan them and call you — you, not her. But if you really think you’ll come home one day and find them gone, call or drop by the local kill shelters with a color picture of the dogs; explain the situation, and ask if you can leave or post the flyer at the desk. Take formal custody of the dogs, basically.
While you wait for the readers to help you with 2), look on Yelp or Angie’s List for reputable dog trainers in your area. Talk to current clients, particularly ones who faced the same challenges you do or who have the same breed of dog. Interview a few likely candidates; ask them about their training philosophies and how they would implement them if hired. See what vibe you get.
Don’t give up; worst case, you get in touch with a good rescue organization and they can help you find a positive placement for one or both dogs. But dogs crave training. They want pack leaders. That’s you; you just need a hand with the details. Thanks for stepping up. Now let’s see what the readers think.
Tags: cats
Can you contact the breeders? Most reputable breeders have a clause in the contract where you’re required to give the dog back to the breeder if you won’t/can’t keep it, so if your efforts at re-training don’t work, the dogs wouldn’t be going a shelter.
The most important thing you have to understand is that trainers and training classes are for the owner, not the dog. They are to teach you how to communicate with your dog. So if you are going to invest in training classes, it’s crucial that you attend the whole time. I know you weren’t able to attend before, but I get the feeling you and your mother thought take the dog to a couple classes or training sessions and the trainer will magicly fix the dog. Not the case. The trainer teaches YOU how to train the dog and then it’s up to you to apply the lessons at home with consistency.
The other big lesson-a tired dog is a good dog. They need exercise and activity, as much as possible. Don’t know what your new living situation will be, but if you had a large yard you could let them out that would be ideal. If not, frequent walks or trips to the park would be good. If you can afford it, doggie day care at least a couple days a week might do a lot to lower their energy levels and make them happier, less destructive pets.
Also, you don’t mention if the dogs have been spayed. That also might help.
If they’re purebreds, you can try contacting a rescue organization for that particular breed. They can probably give you guidance as to how to attempt to train them; they also might be able to put them on their list as “dogs to be adopted.” You’d function as a foster home for them until they’re adopted. (Or maybe they’ll put them in more experienced foster care.)
I am a cat person, and it’s been decades since I had a dog, but I saw friends of mine get excellent results from a series of clicker-training classes for their Schipperke, and even got pretty good results for their Italian Greyhound. Also, keep on watching Cesar Milan. At least one of his training techniques worked on my obstreperous Bad Barn Cats, so I see no reason why his ideas shouldn’t work with dogs. The dog owner has a big advantage over the cat owner: the dog _wants_ to please the human. Cats, not so much.
Good luck, and I really hope you can work it out together.
This is a case where the purebred thing is a plus. Most popular breeds also have breed-specific rescue groups. These folks could help on two fronts — first, they’ll have contacts for the trainers they use to rehabilitate dogs, and second, they’ll be the best resource for rehoming the dogs if that becomes necessary.
If you haven’t found one online already, check with your local vet, some of these groups are run pretty hand-to-mouth and might not have much of an online presence. They’re working with breeders and others involved with the breed. Your local shelter might also have contacts with breed clubs or breeders who could point you in the right direction. Or you could contact the breeder your mom got the dog from. They may be able to help you locate a trainer, too — an ethical breeder doesn’t want one of the dogs they sold in a bad situation.
Finally, I agree with Sars — give yourself some credit for taking on a bad situation you didn’t create, and for treating the dogs so well.
Although this really wasn’t part of the question, I would like to add something. I am concerned about a Rottie you already describe as “spunky” and having a “biting problem.” If you DO take ownership of the dogs and they attack (or heaven forbid kill) someone, there can be legal criminal repercussions if it is found out that you knew beforehand that the dogs were dangerous.
I’m not saying I don’t applaud your attempts to rehabilitate the dogs, I just want you to know the responsibility you’re taking on. (My boyfriend is a vet and deals with this kind of situation fairly regularly. In fact, it just came up yet again yesterday.)
Best,
I work with animal rescue, so I have a few thoughts. First, don’t feel bad about your situation. It’s of your mother’s making, and she’s not out of line with the behavior of lots of people. So many people think, “Hey, I’ll get a dog!” without considering what that means. It’s not a stuffed animal you can put on a shelf when you don’t want do deal with it, folks! (Grrr to them.)
My first suggestion is to consider placing the older Rottweiler with a rescue, preferably a breed rescue. It’s not really normal for a puppy to be all that aggressive with its litter mates, so it was irresponsible for the breeder to place the dog with an inexperienced owner in the first place. In general, the dog sounds like she would be difficult for many people to deal with, and if she winds up at a kill shelter and displays any signs of aggression, she could easily be put down. So it might be best to get her into the hands of a rescue group that is used to dealing with dogs (or Rottweilers specifically) and let them work with her. You don’t say where you live, so here’s a list of Rottweiler rescues nationwide that give you a place to start.
You don’t say as much about the age or personality of the puppy, but it’s possible that the puppy has learned some of its bad behavior from the older dog and might calm down and be easier to work with without her influence. If you want to keep the puppy and have the time to work with her and really follow up on the training consistently, I’d say give it a shot. But do that only if you can really follow up on the training and give the dog all the exercise and mental stimulation (agility training, maybe?) she needs. If you suspect you can’t follow through, go ahead and get her into a rescue as well.
Good luck!
The hardest part is staying firm. Dogs have perfected the How Could You face, which makes backing down so easy. Especially since you’re going to have to be the mean one for the next while. Bribing with chicken and steak is reinforcing the bad behavior, it’s basically giving them a treat for eating your valuables. Instead of rewarding them, you have to order them in an authoritative voice and cuff them to make them understand. (I am not condoning animal abuse, please don’t hurt them with the cuffs, but observe how they cuff each other to fight for dominance and mirror that.)
Also remember that dogs don’t have great memory/reason capabilities. If you come home to find your shoes eaten, punishing them won’t accomplish much, it will just seem random.
Once you’ve established your dominance, then you can start rewarding for specific behaviors.
Good luck and keep calm. Staying calm is how you show the dogs that you’re the one in charge.
Have you tried NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free) with the dogs? If you seach it online, you can find some pretty good descriptions of it, but here are the basics.
The dogs get nothing for free (except water- they should have their normal access to their water). No food, no toys, no outside time, no walks, etc. If they are currently free fed (food available all the time), pick up the bowls. Pick up the toys and keep them somewhere the dogs can’t access.
The general idea is that the dog has to do something you want to get something they want. If they want to go outside, they have to sit by the door until you release them. (You may choose to modify this one if they have housebreaking issues). If they want to go for a walk, they have to sit while you put the leash on.
If they want to eat, they have to sit / lay down before you give them their food. (Some people go as far as hand feeding their dogs individual pieces of kibble for the desired behaviours.) If you decide to put the food down in bowls, it should only be available to the dogs for a set amount of time. If the dogs don’t eat their food in the allotted time, pick the bowl up, dump the kibble back in the container and the dogs have to wait until the next specified meal time. The dogs will not starve themselves, so if they don’t eat for a few meals, don’t give up.
Once they get the idea that you are in charge of the food and that they eat reliably, you can look into some puzzle toys. Kongs are a classic (stuff kong full of kibble, smear peanut butter (or goey substance of choice) ono the large hole to keep the kibble inside, give to dogs), but there are lots of them out there. They make the dogs work for their food, which can help to tire them out mentally.
I’m currently doing this with my dog and I’m not going to tell you it is easy – it’s hard and annoying. When I first started, it took 20 minutes to get out the door for a walk, now we are down to about five. Everything is going to take a lot longer and it will take a while for the dogs to realize that there are rules they need to follow – things will get worse before they get better as the dogs through the equivalent of a temper tantrum to try to get you to let them do what they want.
I’d also recommend that you look for a trainer in your area for you to work with. It will be more expensive, but I think that several private sessions with a trainer and the two dogs will be more effective that a group class at this point for you. The trainer will be able to see how the dogs live and act and give you more tips for managing their behaviour while you are working on their training.
Even if you don’t end up keeping the dogs, any work you can do with them will help them to find a new home.
Good luck.
Oops! Looks like the link I put in isn’t working. Since I clearly can’t code correctly, here’s the URL for possible Rottweiler rescues: https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/rottlinks.htm.
I second Veronica B’s comment. We adopted out a puppy that was VERY aggressive toward its litter mates, and it ultimately started biting people, even its owner. I’m not saying that’s the case here, but some dogs have psychological issues that lead to aggressive behavior. That’s why I think getting her to a breed rescue might be a good idea, because they are more qualified to assess whether her behavior is reasonble.
Luckily, the adopter of the dog we had with aggression issues didn’t blame us for her getting bitten. But you might not be so lucky.
I agree with the suggestions to look for a breed-specific or large dog specialized rescue in your area. I also agree that getting the dogs into activities like agility can really help to wear them out and make them more trainable.
The main thing I’d suggest, though, is to really research the best dog trainers in your area – particularly the ones with lots of aggression experience. Don’t rely on the trainers’ descriptions of what they know; check out Yelp and Google reviews and every other review source you can think of. If there are dog-related e-mail lists or Facebook pages for your city, join them and ask questions there about what trainers might help. The best trainers are expensive, but the money is absolutely worth it for the results.
(I don’t mean to imply that the trainers you’ve used in the past are sub-par. I don’t know anything about them, obviously. I will say that while we worked with a decent trainer first, working with the BEST trainer in our area changed our lives with our problematic dog. She’s not perfect, but she’s so much improved, and we understand more of what we need to do for her well-being now.)
If BEST sends info to Sars about where she, BEST, lives now, or expects to be living, the Nation can probably suggest specific dog trainers in her area. I have the name of a fabulous trainer in the Washington, D.C. area, but it won’t help if BEST lives in Chicago. I am a dog lover who is a terrible trainer, or I am a good at teaching dogs to do what i do not want them to do. It seems like there should be a name for anti-training.
Try to find a trainer that specialises in agressive dogs, which is what you’re dealing with, rather than a generic training program. A lot of trainers (who are otherwise very good) just don’t have the experience with agressive dogs, their special hang ups, and how to respond to the behavior.
Also, there are a bunch of different schools of thought when it comes to training, even in the specialty of agressive dogs. Ask around, read Yelp reviews, interview several trainers and find one that works with your personality as well as the dogs’ needs. If you go with a style very counter to your personality it probably won’t work becasue it’ll feel wrong to you and the dog will know it. I mean, new behaviour will feel weird, so a little uncomfortable is OK, but if you’re sitting there going “no, this seems really wrong…” it probably won’t work for you because a) you won’t really be consistant even if you want to be and b) the dog will pick up on your hesitation and respond to it.
From a friend’s personal experience I wouldn’t go with a school that uses the “Alpha Male” physically agressive training route. It can make the situation much worse and it really just makes the dog afraid of you, regardless of what the trainer will tell you. But again, go with what feels like it’ll work for you.
Dear Best,
I’ve been there. When we got our rottie mix puppy (that we now suspect is actually a Beauceron) we weren’t as prepared as we thought we were and we thought we were pretty darned prepared for a puppy! Her biting and aggression was so high that we were actually thinking about having to give her up as well and were entirely heartsick and failure-ful feeling about it. But we found an EXCELLENT dog trainer (if you’re near Indianapolis, IN, I’ll hook you up) and he was almost like magic, seriously. After one lesson, Allie was biting less, paying more attention and wasn’t pulling on her leash as much. In short, there was much hope.
The first thing he told us, though, and this was completely backed-up by our vet (who I thought was going to kick us out when we mentioned his name) was not to watch Cesar Milan. Cesar is effective because HE has trained himself on how to deal with dogs, and the shows only illustrate a portion of the training that happens. If a “normal” person tries his techniques, they’re bound to fail, and people are likely to get bitten, frequently.
I’d suggest finding a good trainer who uses positive reinforcement (no choke collars or negative feedback) and practice practice practice. Regular dog park visits and as ferretrick suggested, a doggie day care (Allie goes every Friday) are godsends if you work full-time or aren’t as active as the puppy.
If you decide to keep at it on your own, good luck and the day the puppies drop that roll of toilet paper on command or come runnning across the dog park when you yell “Come!” is very gratifying and makes loving them even easier.
But know your limits. If you have to surrender them to a rescue, you have to. It sucks and it’s a terrible feeling, but if you do your research and pick a great breed-specific no-kill rescue group, you’re doing what’s better for the pup and yourself.
I think you need to take a deep breath and decide: do you want to be responsible for these dogs, no matter what, for the next 10+ years? I am a dog person, and I have two medium energy, (mostly) well-behaved dogs that were adopted from rescue organizations, and I share dog care responsibilities with a partner. There are days when getting them the attention, exercise and training they need is beyond the BOTH of us. I couldn’t imagine taking on those two dogs alone, with all my experience, at this point!
If you’re not up for it, or if you don’t think *these* are the dogs you’re willing to put in a major major long term commitment to, then go the rescue organization route. If they can be rehomed, they will be. The younger they are, the better. If you’re going to try and give up in a few years, don’t do it. You will put the dogs in a worse position.
If you want to keep them, great. Besides the legal stuff, YOU need to work WITH the trainers with the dogs. They will teach you how to train the dogs. Not train your dogs for you.
You need to get the dogs a LOT more exercise. Do you run? can you bike with them? is there a game like fetch they are into? – you need to find ways to burn energy besides walks and the dog park. Ideally with you. If not, hire a dog runner or someone who will burn your dog out. High energy dogs MUST get exercise or they will be destructive.
How are you doing at reading dog body language? You may have watched DVDs or read Ceasar, but can you look at dogs and see dominant displays, recognize fear aggression from other aggression, etc? How well do you understand what these dogs are communicating from how they act/posture/move/sound? You can’t correct a dog or teach a dog or react well if you don’t read “dog.” Also, do you even know if the dogs get along? Or are they engaged in constant displays and spats that look like a mix of play and destruction to you? One dog may be stressing the other one out or they may be urging one another on. This is where having trainers and dog people show you and explain can help – in person, with your dog. The dogs may be telling you all sorts of stuff that you aren’t understanding. Dogs, like cats, have personalities in terms of whether they even like other dogs (and which ones they like or don’t), whether they are motivated by people or food or toys, etc. This is where you need to decide if you are willing to *become* a dog person to get it. All the books and dvds in the world can’t tell you what these dogs are actually like or show you how they communicate in dog language.
Next, since the dogs are destructive indoors, they need to start from scratch. The dogs need to be crate-trained, and then work on having limited access with gates as they get comfortable behaving in larger spaces. This is what experienced dog owners do when they bring home new puppies or older rescue dogs. Dogs aren’t just allowed free reign in a house and expected to know not to bite or chew things. Controlling two dogs, teaching them to obey commands consistently, etc. – it’s all very challenging if you can’t count on at least ONE of them to stay put and not wreack havoc.
And, last, you talk about how poor you are at dog training and how you don’t know what to do, feel guilt, etc. Surely you know that this lack of confidence is undermining your ability to get the dogs’ behavior under control. Your insecurity becomes THEIR stress and hands the mantle of leadership to the dogs, esp the one that sounds more dominant to begin with. The fact that the dog won’t surrender food to you shows exactly what the dog thinks of you. You are weak and have no authority or ability to take it. But the way to get past this is NOT by bribing the dog with “something better.” Nor is it berating yourself and saying, Clearly I am a terrible dog owner! First off, you’re not a terrible dog owner. You are doing a lot, and you are inexperienced. Working with trainers should help train YOU to realize you are NOT a terrible owner, but that you will have to make some changes in how you act and the energy you are projecting to the dogs.
Honestly, I think part of the lack of confidence might be not just insecurity, but also that you are genuinely afraid of that specific dog – biting, aggression, dominance, lack of control, etc. Which is why I think you’re going to need a lot of outside help for YOU with the dog, not just learning from outside sources, and also why I think you should seriously consider re-homing THAT dog. But either way, I do think you need to address your own confidence and attitude issues, because while you are obviously a CARING pet owner, you just might not have the personality or confidence to be a good match for this dog.
Firstly, as others have said, the fact that you’re caring/trying is crucial.
I’m a dog owner – I have a Husky(-ish) rescue dog that I got at approx 12 weeks old (I wasn’t really planning on getting one, but was talked into it after considering all these issues), and he was rather energetic, though not aggressive, and he nearly drove me nuts at times in the first year, but with my best attempts consistent, firm training is now a great dog and almost 3y old. My random thoughts:
1) get Cesar Milan’s books, especially the puppy one (How to Raise the Perfect Dog) and a general one (I borrowed “Cesar’s Way” from a friend when I got my puppy). He’ll strongly emphasize two things that I’ll repeat – “energy” and disciplined exercise. If you’re stressed and anxious, the dog will pick up on it. Do your very best to be a calm/assertive leader, and that calmness will help your dog. I find that if I/others yell @ my dog (or dogs in general), he just gets more hyper but if I put a hand on him and speak in a calm/gentle voice (eg: “be gentle and relaxed, just relax, etc” he’ll settle down (Cesar’s not a big fan of verbal, you’re just supposed to radiate calm energy, or something, but for me/my dog speech works better).
Secondly, with any dog, but especially a young working dog, they really, really need exercise for mental stimulation and to tire them out. That might mean 2hrs/day. It’s a big time commitment, but makes a world of difference. “Acting out” – chewing stuff, etc – is usually because they’re bored and there’s nothing else to do. A walk where they’re required to behave/heel/follow your lead is also mental exertion/discipline. If the dog pulls/is a pill while walking, get a Halti (or similar brand) so that if s/he pulls, it pulls on their nose, and/or loop the leash around your waist (loop it thru the handle) so that you can put your whole body weight into stopping the pulling – and do so with a sharp sideways tug, not pulling backwards, which just increases the dog’s desire to pull. And remember to do your best to be in a calm state (I know, way easier said than done) while walking – if you’re tense and worried about what the dog will do, s/he will do it. If the dogs are too strong for you to walk at present, get a reputable dog walker to do so to wear them out (and teach the rules) for a few weeks, until you’re able to do so.
On the topic of boredom, if your dogs are smart/curious dogs (not The Simple Dog), you might try toys that help keep them entertained, such as those balls where you stuff treats inside and they have to figure out how to roll it to get them out, or stuff a tablespoon or two of peanut butter into a Kong – that kept my boy occupied for a good 20-30 minutes when I just needed a break! (I tried with one of those real bones someone got for him, but he got smart and would stand on the back of my couch and drop that bone onto the tile floor until it cracked into pieces which he tried to eat … so he no longer has that bone!)
2) Chewing/biting. I’d strongly recommend putting the dogs in crates while unsupervised. I’m firmly of the opinion that this is not cruel, but necessary. You wouldn’t leave a 6 month old baby home alone lying on the floor … why do so with a puppy, then be upset when they misbehave? If the dogs are out, they should be supervised at all times – I know, a giant PITA, but then you can catch them as soon as they start doing something wrong, and redirect them elsewhere. This meant that, when my boy was a puppy, I made frequent use of the pause button on my DVR. Now I can leave him alone in the house all day without worry, but it took a while! Especially at their current ages (1 or under) they could have been teething for much of this time, so chewing is going to happen, just have enough appropriate things for them to chew on – a Kong, those big rope “bones,” or the strong plastic teething toys. Forget stuffed animals – if yours are anything like mine, those are destroyed in minutes. Even the rope bones he’ll chew through and rip apart – obvs a strong instinct in their somewhere to rip flesh from bone or something … it just means I get to sweep up bits of cotton thread regularly, but he loves it and it keeps him occupied, so it’s worth it.
Back to the biting – were they biting or nipping? The second is rather common, though annoying, with some puppies (mine included!) and as you’re saying, needs to be trained/redirected. Mine nipped a lot to get attention, and to try and “groom” my arm while I rubbed his belly, and it took months of consistent reminders to get him to stop. If yours are truly biting, in an aggressive/dangerous way, then I agree with others that you really need professional help and/or could be at risk for future incidents. I get the impression that the breeder where she got the Rottie was not a reputable breeder, but perhaps of the “breed guard dogs for drug dealers” variety, which would breed for/encourage unsafe behaviours.
Hope my random ramblings are helpful, and good luck!
I think you’ve gotten some great advice on here; having two large, high energy dogs, once that came with some surprise issues, I feel your pain! I don’t have any specific training things to suggest that haven’t already been mentioned, but I just wanted to add my support to this:
“But know your limits. If you have to surrender them to a rescue, you have to. It sucks and it’s a terrible feeling, but if you do your research and pick a great breed-specific no-kill rescue group, you’re doing what’s better for the pup and yourself.”
I completely agree with you that taking on a pet is a major responsibility that should not be entered lightly and should be followed through whenever possible, but the fact is that YOU did not decide to buy these dogs, and while it’s quite admirable that you’ve tried as hard as you have to be there for them, it might be the case that you are truly not equipped to deal with them (which is in no way your fault). If you are able to place them in a loving, appropriate home, that would not be irresponsible at all–in fact, it might be the kindest option for all of you. If you think you can manage it, by all means, go the training route, but if you do it, realize that it’s going to have to be a big time and effort commitment on your part. Yes, it will pay off and get easier over time, but these dogs will need exercise and regular training/attention for the next several years at least. If you are, say, entering grad school or moving to a small apartment, I would truly advise you to consider fostering them only until you can find a more appropriate home. And for the love of all that’s holy, tell your mom to get an alarm system next time–not an animal!
One more comment (after reading the posts by Charley and Peach):
I hadn’t heard of the NILF approach, but do something similar – my dog needs to sit and wait calmly as I get ready to go out for a walk before I’ll put on his leash, I walk out the door first, etc. I also often dog-sit a friend’s dog who has food issues (occasionally aggressive if he feels threatened) so with him I’m especially firm that he needs to sit and wait as I set out the food, and wait until I say ‘okay’ before he can go to the bowl and eat, and it really works with him. I don’t know, with an energetic puppy, if I’d withhold walks pending good behaviour, as that might just lead to more pent-up energy.
Regarding the pro/anti-Cesar groups, I’m with whoever said to look at a few different approaches and see what works for you and your dogs. I think the anti-Cesar sentiment is related to his discipline methods (maybe on the show, which I haven’t really seen, as it’s not really in the books). What I found useful from the books was more the philosophy (if you can call it that) – a) dogs want a leader and if you’re not, they will be (so fake it til you make it … act like you’re the boss, not in a mean way, but a firm/calm way, and they will eventually respect you for it) and b) dogs will pick up on the energy around them, and act accordingly. I’ve found both to be true, although I do a lot of things (I`ve taught Eddie many verbal commands — walk/trot/left/right/etc — as that works for us, even if that`s not Cesar`s way).
I agree with Sars. You need to take ownership of these dogs immediately. Then decide what to do with them. I know you are attached to them, but honestly I think contacting the rescues is going to be your best step. YOU never wanted dogs. Now you feel stuck with them because you are a decent human being. While living with you is better than living with your Mom, it isn’t ideal for you or the two dogs. They each deserve a human that genuinely wants them for who they are. It may take months for a space to open up in each rescue however, so if you are even vaguely considering this option, contact them now.
That said, kudos to you for stepping in and helping these dogs as much as you have. I’m involved in rescue too, and “third-party” folks like you are pretty rare. That Rottie would be a handful even for me, and I consider myself to have a fair bit of experience and knowledge.
If you decide to tough it out or you want to do some basic training before you rehome, for the Rottie look for a trainer that has experience with “protection dogs”. Most of them offer Basic Obedience classes. The difference is that they have experience handling these bigger breeds that tend to be protective and aggressive like German Shepherds, Malinois, Rottweilers, Dobermans etc. (And yes, I’m generalizing. I’ve met Rotties that are big babies) We got a German Shepherd pup at Thanksgiving. Even knowing all about the breed ahead of time and choosing a pup with good attitude, he has been a handful. Two weeks of classes with a knowledgeable trainer has made a world of difference.
Best of luck. It is a really hard situation to be in.
“your dogs are smart/curious dogs (not The Simple Dog)”
I was just on Hyperbole and a Half, where she has a brand new post about Simple Dog! This whole Vine kept reminding me.
I know nothing about training aggressive dogs, but wanted to thank you, Best, for stepping up to the plate. A freind of mine was bitten in the butt by a pitty that had a shitty, shitty owner that shouldn’t have been allowed to take care of houseplants, let alone a dog. The fact that you realize these dogs are not toys or some kind of cheap security system, but living beings says tons about your character.
I’m all for contacting any breed specialists and asking for their advice, since familarity with breed needs/personalities goes so far with this kind of thing. Calling the original breeder, outlining the things you’ve tried so far and seeing if they have any resources you could contact might be the easiest start point.
Oh, Best, I have been there. I ended up with a family member’s non-trained Rottweiler/Shepherd mix who, surprise! had some Chow as well. Not the best situation for a busy farm, and definitely not for that relative.
I took him after he displayed aggression toward a neighbor (nearly bit her in the throat when she bent to pet him) and worked with him for two years. His behavior was better when he was given work to do, and he loved to learn–we had lots of tricks and he understood that his job was to wait for me to come home. He also had extreme dominance issues and I worked to overcome them with him along the NILF lines–never putting my face at his level, never allowing him to go through doorways or up stairs first, making him work for his food, etc. I was the only human he would defer to–he scared the crap out of everyone else. I never let him off lead, and he was obedient toward me.
A friend came to visit from out of town, and she bent slightly to pet him. He jumped and bit her on the throat–and he peed while he was doing it, because he knew it was wrong but he could not stop himself; it was instinctive.
The bite barely broke the skin, but we went directly to the ER. He was up to date on shots, but he still had to be quarantined for ten days to ensure he didn’t have rabies. I paid my friend’s hospital bills (thank God, she was wonderful about it, and we’re friends to this day), and then I had him put down. I had to. Seeing that he knew he was doing wrong, and that he couldn’t stop, proved to me what I had begun to suspect–he was a wonderful, loving, intelligent dog with bad genetics (I don’t mean that the breeds are bad–I mean that his particular makeup left him with some kind of brain wiring problem that left his aggression switch permanently in the ON position). I couldn’t be responsible for him hurting someone else, and I couldn’t be responsible for keeping him alive and unhappy and confused about why he was doing what he was doing.
You’re doing the right thing by asking these questions; I probably should have done more. You’re already getting good advice that I can’t add much to, but I wanted you to know that you’re doing the dogs a tremendous service by ensuring that you’re exhausting all possibilities. Give yourself more credit.
First, I’d recommend the book “Don’t Shoot the Dog” (you can find it on Amazon). It’s clear, concise and easy to follow. Clicker training really does work wonders, but you have to be willing to follow through with it. YOU have to do a LOT of work. The dog does, too, but mostly it’s about how you interact and communicate with the dog.
Second, I’d also recommend re-homing the Rottie. Rotties are head-strong, powerful dogs already, and your Rottie sounds like her alpha tendencies have gotten out of hand. She needs one-on-one attention from someone who understands Rotties. Even an experience trainer would have a hard time handling a Rottie AND another working type dog simultaneously. As an inexperienced trainer, you’re setting yourself up for failure by trying to keep them both. There are some great Rottie rescues out there. Do some research for your area, and find one that can help her be the best dog she can be.
Third, once you have only one dog to work with, follow the steps outlined in the book I mentioned (or really, any of the books mentioned here). Make sure your dog begins to recognize you as the alpha. He needs to know that you are capable as a leader, and are in charge. That doesn’t mean being mean or nasty. It means being strong and consistent with the rules and the boundries.
Fourth, invest in a crate. They provide the pup with some security, as they act as their space, their den, and they will protect your things while you are away. Contrary to some, this is not a “bad” place. This does not make the dog uncomfortable or unhappy. Sure, he would prefer to roam willy nilly all over the house and yard at all hours of the day and night, and similarly, I’d prefer to eat nothing but ice cream and be a size 6. What a dog wants and what a dog needs are two separate issues. Dogs are not like people. Always remember that. Make sure his den is a happy place where only good things happen. Never put the dog in his den in anger. Never put him there as a disciplinary action. Give him a treat every time he goes in, and make that his place for “good things”. A KONG full of peanut butter, perhaps, or a really messy, bloody raw beef bone.
Some simple things you can do to start showing him you are the leader:
1. If you are going outside the house, make him sit and stay before you put his leash on. Then make him sit and wait until you give him the command to walk out the door. Until he does this, you do not go outside. If he never does it, put the leash away and ignore him, and try again a little while later.
2. Make him sit and wait after you put his food down. Do not let him approach his food until you give him the command to do so. If he won’t do this, take his food away.
3. Make him work for each and every treat you give him. Start with easy commands like “sit”, then move into more challenging ones.
4. If he jumps on you, or otherwise misbehaves when you come home, simply ignore him entirely until he sits down. That doesn’t mean you leave him alone. Just turn your back on him. Eventually he will get the idea that the jumping doesn’t get him attention, and the sitting does. Attention is what he wants.
5. Exercise, exercise, exercise. A tired puppy is a good puppy. Dog parks, doggy day care, long, long walks.
6. Working dogs like to have jobs. Buy a dog back pack for your walks, and fill it with water or flour (not too much weight at first, and never go above 10-20% of his total weight). Make him wear it for your walks. This serves two purposes – it gives him a job (not a very exciting one – carrying stuff – but a job nonetheless), and it makes his walks more physically challenging which will tire him out more.
6. Puzzle toys are a good idea, too. Find ways to challenge his mind as well as his body.
7. Above all, be patient. It will take some time.
I have an Aussie mix rescue I adopted in October, and he and I have had a long, long road together. When I brought him home, he had spent the first year of his life chained to a tree. He had OCD and attachment issues, and wasn’t house trained. In the last 6 months, he has transformed into an amazing animal. Clam, sweet and great with other animals and people. It has taken a LOT of work, though, and constant, and I mean CONSTANT, reaffirmation of the rules. Because he’s very smart, and has alpha tendencies, he is always challenging me. That is what dogs do, like teenagers, they push their limits. However, he wants me to show him what he needs to do. He wants me to give him direction and leadership. That is what makes him happy. That’s what makes all dogs happy. Your dog wants these things, too, he just doesn’t know how to ask for it.
You will figure it out. Just be patient with yourself and with him. :)
Just to reiterate a few things that have already been said, and add some advice of my own:
1. yes, if the dogs have not been spayed or neutered, get that done IMMEDIATELY – not just because dogs are incapable of using the rhythm method, but because it will cut down on their aggression
2. yes, take the dog to training or obedience school. My German Shepherd puppy (who is now four and beautifully-behaved) improved immensely after a 12-week session through the American Kennel Club. They train dogs to go to shows and do tricks and stuff, but they also have the puppy class where the end objective is nothing more than the dog walking calmly in a circle with you, stopping when you stop and going when you go.
3. when the pup was still young and rambunctious, I found an aluminum can with a handful of coins in it to be the BEST motivational tool in the world. When “Stop!” and “No!” are not working, a couple shakes of the can, and the dog stopped cold, like, “What is that racket?” and then I could deal with her.
4. I prefer Victoria’s teachings to Cesar’s. http://positively.com/
Best, you’re getting great advice here. This is not an easy thing you’re doing and, while, it sounds like you are fully capable of bringing this to success I want to repeat what others have said. You’re not failing. You’re jumping whole hog into a tough situation and making it better. It’s not perfect yet and it probably won’t ever be but it’s better because of you.
Good luck and I do hope you come back and let us know how you fared either way!
OMG the Simple Dog! I just read about her getting lost adventure and it killed me dead. That poor, dumb dog (and poor Allie, too).
I have a chihuahua, so I’m no help here, but kudos to Best for stepping up to the plate for these dogs.
@snarkalupagus:
I’m so sorry to hear about your dog. My boyfriend had a Pitt who wanted nothing more to please him and do the right thing…she would literally shake when she was trying to focus because she so desperately wanted to be A Good Dog. But something was off in her wiring, or the way she was treated before he got her, or SOMEthing, because we couldn’t do anything about her aggression. We tried EVERYthing. Multiple trainers, different collars, acupuncture, raw diets, a 2-hour run/hike *every*day*, you name it. But she bit him and his ex-gf (who was the dog’s other owner) multiple times, and could never leave the house without a muzzle. When she finally attacked me, and then immediately looked completely ashamed and scared, they decided together that they just had to put her down, basically for the same reasons you listed. So, just wanted to reach out to you since I know that making that decision is so incredibly impossible and there’s rarely support around it. I understand, and I’m sorry you had to do it.
Hi Best,
Lots of great advice here, and it’s hard for me to tell from your description if the Rottie really has issues, or is just an untrained dog. I have two recommendations for you.
1. My Smart Puppy by Sarah Wilson – there’s also a website and forums once you get going on the book. It’s really pretty great.
2. Go to obedience school with your dogs. A big part of effective dog training is timing, and I really struggled to know when to praise or treat and when to correct – if you don’t time it right, you can actually reinforce the bad behaviour. It sounds like you might be having trouble with this if all your efforts aren’t working. If you go to a class with your dogs, it’s really you who learns more than the dog.
Hey everyone, letter writer (Best) here. I can’t believe how frazzled my letter sounds, but I’ve already taken a few steps in a good direction so far. Thanks to Sars for the advice, especially about the microchips and going to shelters in advance to warn them. That will take a lot of the stress out of the situation.
To answer some questions that came up, the Rottie (15 months) is spayed, but not papered, and the Poodle hasn’t been spayed yet (she’s 8 months), however she is papered. Yes, Kanuck, the Rottie came from a backyard breeder, and I have no doubt that they are irresponsible breeders.
Thank you for the advice regarding the Rottie’s aggressive tendencies. She was never a biter, she was a nipper, thank God, but I do fear the kind of damage a stubborn, strong-willled undertrained Rottie can be capable of with a stranger. I never want to be that girl on the news, saying “But she’s always so gentle with me…” When she got spayed, it took two vet techs and the loop to sedate her, her kennel aggression was so bad. The vet definitely included that in her permanent record and recommended training, which is how we ended up with trainer #2. She’s never been that wild with me, so her behavior in threatening situations is an issue to think about.
To Shawn, it’s not so much that I’m afraid of her, but that I’m concerned with how damn dominant she is. She challenges my authority all day long. I swear, sometimes I can almost hear her say, “make me”. It’s exhausting and stressful, but she’s lovable when she behaves well, and generally gentle with me.
I agree with everyone above that she should be placed with a rescue organization, and I’ve already begun contacting them (you guys aren’t kidding about wait lists!) Thank you Sherry for the link, I’ll be sure to look at that. I examined my lifestyle and realized THIS dog is not a good fit for me. I still believe she’ll be a good pet for an active family that can better control a dominant dog,
The Poodle…..not sure yet. Yes, Sherry, she is younger than the Rottie, and picked up bad habits alarmingly fast. I admit, most of my training efforts have been focused on the Rottie, so Poodle training has been inconsistent. I’m excited to re-start the training process using program outlined in the comments, agree with everyone who said that there’s no shame in re-homing her if I decide little puppy doesn’t fit with my lifestyle, either. Thanks for the support!
Please, please consider turning the Rottweiler over to an experienced individual, like someone who works in Rottweiler rescue.
Rottweilers can be wonderful, smart dogs who are deeply bonded with their pack leader. They are also extremely powerful animals who can kill people, especially children, to say nothing of other people’s pets. Good training is essential, not optional, for Rottweilers, and it really needs to start before the dog reaches its full size (but that ship has sailed). If you are already having trouble asserting dominance with the Rottweiler, which it sounds like you are, getting yourself established as the pack leader will be a long row to hoe; and, unfortunately, this dog has already reached a size where she can put a serious hurt on people if she’s having a bad day. Snarkalupagus knows what she’s talking about; even when you know what you’re doing, aggressive dogs are difficult to “fix,” and sometimes you can’t fix them.
Lastly, I’m so sorry that you’re left picking up the pieces in the wake of your mother’s irresponsible behavior. These dogs are lucky to have you looking out for them.
I don’t have much advice, Best, but I do want to give you props for trying to do right by these dogs. If it turns out that you can’t keep one or both, please know that you are doing everything I would think of.
You’re getting a lot of great advice here, but I just wanted to throw in a quick note about dog parks. Please exercise great caution when taking the dogs to one – two large, poorly trained dogs can be extremely dangerous to other animals at the park. It doesn’t take much to start a fight, and if you don’t think you have good control over the dogs, you will be at an even greater disadvantage. Just a thought.
Please don’t do anything you see on Cesar Millan’s show. There’s a reason every episode has the “don’t try this at home” disclaimer. Most applied animal behaviorists don’t like his methods very much. His show, and all other TV dog training shows, are for entertainment purposes only and simplify training techniques too much. If I had to suggest one show, it would be “It’s Me or the Dog,” which at least uses only positive training techniques (if a viewer tries those and messes up, they’re much less likely to harm the dog).
One of the great applied animal behaviorists/dog trainers, Patricia McConnell, has some excellent books. I like “The Other End of the Leash” — it’s not about training, but about actually understanding how a dog thinks. She has written several training books as well.
Ian Dunbar, another behaviorist/trainer, is great, too. He has a bunch of books, and the training textbook here (chapters linked on the left) is excellent.
I also agree with the suggestion to use NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free). Dogs need structure. They need a firm, benevolent leader (forget about the “pack leader” and “dominance” and “alpha” nonsense you may have read elsewhere — that stuff has fallen out of favor thanks to current research).
Finally, I’d suggest joining a dog forum if you plan to keep the dog. It’s a great way to get a lot of advice about your specific animal. I like dogforums.com and have learned a lot there, but there are other good all-breed and breed-specific sites out there.
I second, third and fourth everything Shawn said. I have two Australian Cattle dogs that I handle by myself, got into it as a dog lover with experience in herding breeds, planned and waited for ten years for the right time to get them, and I still have a tough time.
And this part of Shawn’s post is especially important:
‘If you’re not up for it, or if you don’t think *these* are the dogs you’re willing to put in a major major long term commitment to, then go the rescue organization route. If they can be rehomed, they will be. The younger they are, the better. If you’re going to try and give up in a few years, don’t do it. You will put the dogs in a worse position.’
Kay- just found your comment- you also might want to look into finding a poodle forum or group. They have some training issues/challenges specific with the breed that you could get specialized help with. Many of them are high energy and since they are a sporting breed, often need a job. Training is a great place to start, but making sure she’s getting enough exercise will go a long way to helping her be able to focus when you are training her.
We had a standard poodle in my dog group, and she got kicked out because her owners had no control over her. My friend is a trainer with about ten years experience, and she sees a lot of the same issues in poodles that this dog had. So, getting ahead of the power curve could be a very good thing.
@Kay – just wanted to say, like so many others here, *thank you* for trying to help these dogs instead of just letting your mom’s negligence slide. And obviously the Nation has your back!
With regard to your description … perhaps the Nation’s anthem is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWX_MFNOL_Y
@dk – Thanks. It was hard. Still is, and it was nearly ten years ago.
@Kay – Best of luck to you, and know that you’re doing the right thing for those dogs. You’re a good person and a good dog owner, and the world needs many more like you.
I just wanted to agree with what Amy wrote. I’m no expert myself, but a friend of mine is training to be a dog behaviorist and I have learned so much talking with her in just the couple of years she’s been in training. She also does not support Cesar Milan’s techniques and is learning the techniques of not being the pack leader or anything, but how to understand your dog and learn its language. Good luck whichever route you take.
Just a note from my “could be helpful if it wasn’t so damn vague” brain file:
There’s a guy here in the Pacific Northwest who focuses on rescuing and running a permanent kennel for out of control/bred for fighting dogs (mostly pits but other breeds too.) He takes the ones that cannot be helped due to breeding and trauma issues, gets them fixed, and lets them live out their lives in a sheltered environment. They are not up for adoption or even handling, they’re too mean, but he feels that since humans and their carelessly evil ways brought these dogs into the world for careless and evil purposes the least he can do is give them a safe place where they aren’t being tortured and abused.
I’ll try to find the specifics, since he could probably use any donations sent his way. Just wanted to let the Nation know that there are, thank God, good people in the world.
Whatever you call it – NILIF, Alpha, Firm, Benevolent leader… whether you watch Caesar Milan or It’s me or the dog, it’s all the same thing. Your dog needs you to be his leader, and to set rules and boundaries and ensure he sticks to them. Whether you use negative reinforcement (like Caesar) or positive reinforcement (like It’s me or the dog), the end result is the same. As Amy said, the problem with negative reinforcement is that it’s a lot easier to screw up. It’s a lot easier to make the dog worse rather than better. So, for most people, positive reinforcement (like the clicker training or any of the other things I and others mentioned) is more reliable. However, for some dogs, positive reinforcement doesn’t work, and something that works is always better than surrendering a dog to a shelter (as long as we’re not discussing cruel behaviors, because negative reinforcement should never be cruel).
I just wanted to add that whatever you decide to try, be patient with yourself and your pup. Always be kind but firm. Never strike her, or rub her nose in anything, or throw things at her. Be consistent in your rules, and give her plenty of stimulation (both mental and physical). Above all, love her and she will love you back 10 times over.
Congrats on taking charge of this situation, and on your new companion! You won’t regret your decision to save her life.
When I was in 4-H as a kid (4th and 5th grade) with my dog, we used the Koehler Method. It was really effective, and I was just a kid with a mutt (half doberman, half lab) when I learned it, so it’s pretty easy, but you absolutely MUST do the exercises like the long line, etc. I had friends in 4-H who half assed the prep and the exercises themselves and their dogs suffered for it. These are OBEDIENCE methods for working dogs, and they are awesome. Pick it up and read it. Some people find the choke collar hard to deal with emotionally, but I believe that dealing with your dog biting or hurting someone would be far harder to deal with emotionally.
Good luck!
The Monks of New Skete: http://newsketemonks.com/dogs.htm
I don’t have personal experience with these folks, but I’ve heard wonderful things about their training programs and DVDs if you’re looking for a place to start.
They specialize in german shepherds, which are working dogs and can be aggressive if not trained properly. If you’re back east, they’re located in Cambridge, New York.
Good luck!
Kay: I just want to add one more thing. Since you are looking at re-homing one dog but it may take a while (every rescue I’ve ever heard of is full to capacity right now) and are going to restart your training regime:
Train each dog separately when you are training (or retraining) a new command.
This may seem blindingly obvious, but it can be hard to accomplish. I have two dogs and they are both smart and food motivated. But having them both in the same room trying to perform a command is a nightmare! They distract each other all the time. As soon as the treats come out they are both falling all over each other trying to please me.
When training I’ve found it easiest to go into our bedroom hallway with one dog, shut all the doors, and then close the pocket door to the front of the house and leave the second dog out there.
Having two dogs also makes it more difficult to reinforce the “oh hey, you’re just laying on the floor being quiet!” type behaviors. I dole out the praise liberally, but for my two it’s food that really motivates. I can’t toss a snack at one of them for just chillin’ without stirring up the second one.
Just food for thought.
I really respect you for wanting to take care of these dogs, and I think you’ve had great advice here.
One thing that I don’t think has been addressed though is your Mom problem. If you take these dogs or they are rehomed, will your Mom go out and pick another spunky Rottweiler that she will ignore? If she does, how will you feel? Will you want to take care of this dog?
These are questions I think you should answer for yourself and/or resolve with your Mom while moving forward with taking care of the dogs.
Kay again, the original poster. I wanted to update the situation, for anyone like me who compulsively reads Tomatonation and the comments : ). When I moved, I was comfortable enough to take the dogs with me. They are much happier with their increased exercise schedule, plus I’m in much better shape myself. Thank you for the advice that they need a solid hour of exercise in the morning and at least one hour later when I get home. We have a fenced elementary playground near our house where they get to run about while I throw toys, read a book, or do some writing. Lucky for me, they play very well together, even though Heidi (Rottweiler) is a solid 90lbs bigger than toy poodle Nina.
I am glad that posters could tell I had confidence issues with the dogs, which inspired me to make a complete 180 with the help of trainers and other experienced people. Both Heidi and Nina (Rottie and Poodle) are now very well behaved after I took the steps to learn more about the best way to be their leader. They’re not always perfect, but they behave well with me, strangers, and other folks at the dog park.
I get a lot of compliments on how sociable they are, which is gratifying. I never expected how having these dogs would shape my life and my schedule, but I wouldn’t change it for anything.
Thank you all for your kindness, and I appreciate how my life has changed since raising them.
And to answer Emily’s question, my mother hasn’t gotten another dog since, thank goodness. Super thanks to the Tomatonation community, I couldn’t have done this without you!