The Vine: April 21, 2010
Hi Sars!
So, here’s the thing about TheKnot.com…they’re kinda hoity-toity over there. I mean, I’ve personally only been to one wedding (out of probably 50) in my life that had a sit-down dinner at the reception. And that was the wedding of an adult 40-year-old doctor and his wealthy bride. Anyway, since I’ve been planning my wedding, I’ve come to see that that seems to maybe be just a locale thing, or maybe just that I only know broke-ass people.
Needless to say, my fiancé and I will not be feeding dinner to any of our broke-ass friends at our reception. They’re getting cake, a chocolate fountain, and some fruit and cheese. We are paying for it ourselves, as our parents are not financially able. Also, our location has a maximum capacity of 150 people. Our guest list right now sits at 155. I realize only about 60%-ish of those people will show, but still. The less we have to feed, the better cheese we can afford!
So, because of all this, and the fact that we are not really very close to any young children, we are opting for the Adult Only / No Young Children thing. The ceremony and reception are actually going to be in the same exact room, so it’s not even like “children welcome to the ceremony, but adults only at the reception” is an option. So, my bright idea, was to add some wording to our website and also maybe to the bottom of the RSVP cards.
When I posted on the forums at TheKnot about this, just to get an opinion on my wording, it was met with a resounding “NO! YOU CAN NOT PUT THAT ON YOUR INVITATIONS OR ANY PART OF THE INVITE PACKAGE!!!” I was kind of shocked. First of all, I am not putting them on the invitations themselves. I’m putting a small note, in small font, at the bottom of an RSVP postcard. The wording I came up with is, “Due to location limitations, we ask that no children under 12 years of age attend. Thank you for understanding.”
One person replied to my post with, “It would be like sending out a birthday party invitation to a 5th-grade class and making a note that says ‘except for Suzie.'”
I’m not even sure how that’s even close to the same thing. I know that there’s a big fat chance that people will bring their kids anyway, because most parents instinctively seem to think, “Oh, that doesn’t apply to MY little angel!” But I’d like to avoid as much awkwardness as possible. To me, the little tiny RSVP note doesn’t seem like such a huge faux pas. But, I wanted to get your opinion and the opinions of your readers. Because, I feel like the Tomato Nation as a whole, is a lot more level-headed than a bunch of brides.
Thanks,
RSVP
Dear R,
You’re creating a problem that doesn’t exist from what I can see. I mean, if you don’t want young kids at your wedding, you don’t want young kids at your wedding, but your stated reason for wanting to note that explicitly on the reply card is that it’s a space/budget issue.
But you also say that 1) you don’t know very many children, and 2) your total invitation list is only five over capacity for the room. You’ll get a 75% acceptance rate, tops, first of all, and second of all, the pertinent question is how much food to provide for people who RSVPed, not the age of the people eating it. Let’s say 110 people tell you they plan to come; you buy, or tell the caterer to buy, enough fruit and cheese and cake for 120 people, just in case. If a guest has a babysitting emergency and shows up with a kid — or any other plus-one — last-minute, that food is already paid for; it’s not like you can charge back any uneaten cheese that sat out for three hours. Do you see what I’m saying?
You have to trust the RSVP and the wording of it to let people understand that the invitation is addressed to exactly whom it’s addressed to and that’s it. If you have people with kids on your invitation list, address the RSVP to the couple, and put their names on the card with spaces for checkmarks — or address it to the entire family and put everyone’s name with their respective checkmark spaces.
But your main problem here, honestly, is your attitude. You’ve assumed a defensive position, a put-upon air about having to pay for it yourself, that’s coming through rather off-puttingly throughout your letter. The “oh, not MY little angel” comment…why do you assume that it’s only the parents who won’t understand what an RSVP is designed to do? In my experience, cluelessness about RSVPs is a universal, unfortunately. And what’s with the “a bunch of brides” comment? The Tomato Nation is a lot of things, including, at this time of year, some brides.
I’ve gone to just about every kind of wedding — City Hall, wildlife-preserve destination wedding with a lodge, Stanford chapel, shores of Lake Champlain, you name it. Most of them, for the record, fed me a full dinner, but I never expected one. What I did expect is for the bride and groom not to focus on the potential for their guests to rook them out of some chocolate.
Look, I just bought a house, so I understand that feeling that everything costs twice as much as you expect, takes twice as long, and is not as satisfying to check off the to-do list as you’d hoped. I empathize with you. That said, weddings cost money, like it or not, and for your own sanity and the comfort of your guests — whoever they are in the end — you need to find a way to make your peace with it as an investment in a fun party that launches your lives together, instead of holding yourself rigid waiting for people to judge you or rip you off, which is the sense I’m getting from this letter.
Give yourself a break; give everyone else a break. You know? It’s your wedding day. So some unauthorized 10-year-old eats your grapes — who cares. It’s going to be fine. Write the RSVP cards as plainly, but politely, as you can; accept that some people will not Get It; move on.
When eating in a “family-style” restaurant, where food is shared among the guests at a table, what is the protocol for dietary restrictions? Does one announce restrictions beforehand? How much discussion needs to go into it, and when and how does one announce preferences? Do all the orders at a table have to conform to the dietary rules of all the people? If someone orders something that another person can’t have, is that person supposed to avoid the other’s dish?
For example, a group of 10 people, half of whom are vegetarian, decide to get pizza. They get two pizzas: one with meat and one without. Do the meat-eaters stay away from the vegetarian pizza, since the vegetarians can’t eat theirs?
If several people are going out for Chinese food, and some don’t eat seafood, and some don’t eat red meat, and some don’t like sweet and sour sauce, but all of them like tofu, eggs, chicken, and vegetables, and all of them like other sauces, and all of them like a balance of spicy and not spicy, then should they all get the foods they all agree on, or if somebody has a craving for seafood should they go ahead and get one seafood dish? What if two people want it?
Or two people go out for Thai food: one likes it really, really spicy; the other doesn’t. Does the spice-lover have to give up their preference, or does the spice-hater suffer along with some extra yogurt? Or do they just each get their own thing and not share? What if the spice lover then wants to try a lot of the not-spicy dish?
I’d like to have some kind of Ultimate Rule about this, and I know you’re the fairest judge: Who wins the arm-wrestle over dietary restrictions? Do the people who eat everything have sway because they are the most flexible, or do the fussy eaters win? And then, for dealing with people who are too foolish to read The Vine, is there a polite, diplomatic way for me to state up front that if I can’t eat your food, then it’s not fair for you to expect to eat mine?
When Can We Stop Talking About This Meal And Start Eating It
Dear Talking,
I don’t love the “let’s get two dishes and share them” thing, just generally. It’s not because, if the other person orders a meat entrée, it’s not so much “sharing” as “eating off my plate”; I just don’t care for it, I don’t know why. We can share an appetizer, but if I have an entrée in mind, I want that entrée and I want the whole thing.
Family-style is different, because the sharing is the whole point, and when it comes to that, you have to distinguish between “doesn’t like” and “can’t eat.” You want to respect “doesn’t like,” of course, but it’s the difference between “doesn’t like peanuts in main courses, but can push them to a corner of the plate” and “will blow up like a fugu if a peanut comes nigh.”
I find that people generally get it and don’t need a ruling. Vegetarians at the table help themselves to the veg dishes first and then everyone else gets a crack, and the meat-eaters don’t ordinarily impinge on my ability to eat what I can. And if they do, well, I ain’t starving; if I only get a single slice of pizza, sometimes it’s a mild irritant, but if you really want to control your order, you decline invitations to family-style meals.
The point of sharing a big family-style meal with friends isn’t the food itself; it’s the sharing, the family part. I have done the “territorial ordering” thing where I get something unpopular in order to fend off encroaching forks, but it’s seldom worth it, because it just makes you look like an inflexible pill.
Suggest a spicy or fish dish to the table (or their opposites), but if it doesn’t go over, you can manage; hope the meat-eaters don’t chow all your tofu and broccoli, but if you only get one serving, you can manage. Omniphages should try to respect the dietary needs of the others, within reason, and those with food issues should try to stay flexible (and pack in a snack just in case).
But the Ultimate Rule is this: the point of group dining is the group.
Dear Sars,
Here’s a story you’re probably all-too-familiar with: A few months ago, my boyfriend of 7+ years left me. We were best friends, had the same interests, had similar views on things. We had the same plans for the future, with the exception of my desire to make the most of our opportunities to travel and see the world. He didn’t want to separate so he decided to come with me.
We moved to London and on the way, spent 6 adventurous months travelling around. We spent every day together creating fun and funny memories and didn’t get tired of each other. We survived everything together, including the difficulties with settling down in a new country away from friends and family.
One thing about him though was his attitude to work. He’s very, very smart but gets easily frustrated because he thinks he is surrounded or managed by incompetent dickheads, and it galls him to think that people who are less smart are promoted above him or earn more money. I tried to tell him that that’s the way the real world works — there are lots of smart, talented, experienced people out there, there will be incompetent dickheads, and experience or luck or whatever can play as much a part in your career as brains. But he thought that London would be different — that if you work hard, you’ll get your rewards and recognition.
And so he worked himself to death. His long hours meant that I did all the housework etc., and while it wasn’t ideal, I supported him because it was his dream and the signs were there that his employer was impressed and would promote him. Although neither of us were professionally happy, we were personally happy. We travelled Europe together and made more plans for the future.
Then, he got fired. He tried to do something right but did it very wrong, and got himself into a lot of trouble. Compounding the problem was his visa situation — you see, he came over to London as my de facto spouse as I am a British citizen. After 2 years, he was able to apply for permanent residency, again on the basis of our relationship. He didn’t want to come to London, he doesn’t even like London, and he did not care about residency. But he had put his application in, and while our passports were away at the Home Office, he got fired.
It just about killed him. He never said anything but I know it was a devastating blow to his pride, self-esteem and his self-image. I got him a lawyer, I got him through it, I got our passports back (with his permanent residency), and both of us landed new jobs. I thought that it was the perfect time for us to start being professionally happy, especially since we had just grown closer after all the stress.
But I guess being fired affected him worse than I thought, and so he decided to leave. He said various things — that we’d grown apart, that we’d been having problems, that the spark had gone out of our relationship, none of which were true and none of which made sense to anybody with half a brain who had seen the way he’d looked at me up to and including the day he left. Anyway, it was his decision, I had no say in it, and I had to watch him walk out of the door the very next day. Needless to say, I am heartbroken.
I am trying to be dignified about this because we spent so many very happy years together and I don’t want to destroy his happy memories of me and our time together. But here’s the thing: no one is supposed to know he got fired or why. He and his former employer signed a legal agreement not to badmouth each other. He told his new employer he was made redundant. Chances are, if anyone knew what really happened, or that he’d lied during the recruitment process, he’d get into a lot of trouble. And then there is the fact that he left me less than 2 months after getting permanent residency. Which can’t be revoked.
I know everyone who gets left/abandoned/deserted/dumped wants revenge, but the thought of informing his new employer of what really happened kind of tortures me. As does the thought of doing whatever I can to get someone to revoke his permanent residency. I know he didn’t go through 7+ years for a visa, but can you blame me for feeling used and upset? Is it perfectly natural to want to spill his precious little secret and potentially ruin his professional life — which is so important to him because he’s dead-set on climbing the corporate ladder as fast as possible at his new job?I really want to do it but he’d know it was me as I’m the only other person in the world, other than the lawyers, who knows. I’m the only person in the world who knows him inside and out.
Sars, he broke my heart and I’m nowhere near out of the woods yet. It’s been less than 3 months and knowing that he is in my city, pursuing my dream, but not with me, is painful. But should I be entertaining these nasty thoughts? Is there a way of being as gracious and dignified as I would like to be?
London Calling
Dear London,
Entertaining them, sure. Doing anything about them, no. It’s “perfectly natural” to want to, to cause him the kind of pain he’s causing you, the basis of which you still don’t understand, so it’s that much harder to put it behind you. But if you do it, then you’re The Hag Who Ruined His Life.
If he did something illegal in the first place, something that endangered others…I can’t speak to the ethics of turning him in as far as whether that’s something you’d do if you didn’t know him personally, or resent him for walking away from seven years together. If it’s an issue of other people’s safety, well, that’s a different discussion.
It sounds, though, like it’s just one of those paperwork things, and what net good will come of blowing the whistle on him? He gets booted out of the country, possibly prosecuted — yeah, maybe in the abstract he deserves it, but is that why you’d do it? No. You want to punish him for interpersonal transgressions, not for the legal wrongdoing, which you apparently had no problem with when it kept him by your side.
And if I had to guess, I’d say that this is likely what his leaving is about: the amount of power you exercised in the relationship, that he followed you, that you “got him a lawyer” and “got him through it” and took over the housework while he worked long hours. Understand, this is not a criticism. But to a large extent, you called the shots on where the two of you would live; you worked and took care of the house; you had the citizenship; you did your job competently and without drama (as far as I know). He chafed under management and then fucked up royally. I don’t know all the particulars, but there is a dynamic I sense here of your proficiency, your drive, your goals, in opposition to a certain cluelessness and needing to be led on his part, and this is an alienating dynamic for some people, I think men more than women.
Like I said, this isn’t a judgment of you and I don’t want you to take it that way. I have had relationships end under analogous circumstances, I guess you could say, and it’s really not anyone’s fault…if I’m right about his issue here, and who knows if I am, but if he left because he didn’t want you to take care of things anymore, well, good luck to him.
The reason I bring this up is that I think that, for him, this is about the power balance in the relationship — and now I think you’re really feeling that, because the relationship is over, but yet he still has the power in it, the power to hurt and confuse you, and the desire to rat him out proceeds directly from that and everything else. And it’s totally, totally normal. Even if you didn’t have this information and you wanted to make some shit up and stick it to him: totally normal.
But you have to accept that; you have to content yourself with the idea that, if it’s really that bad, somebody is going to find out, or he’s going to hang himself some other way; and that, even if nothing bad becomes of him as a result, whichever way it goes for him, it isn’t your responsibility anymore. No more lawyers, no more cleaning around him while he stresses out with his laptop, no more revising your idea of the future so that he can fit into it — try to think of this as freeing, because in many ways, it is.
And if you’re asked about the situation by authorities, be truthful and do what you have to do, but unless and until that happens, he is not your problem anymore. This is what he wanted. I know it burns, having to let that be, but if he left seven years behind because he wanted to feel like a man or whatever the hell, he did you a favor. Leave it there, cut off contact, and remember that in another three months, you will feel much better about everything…or at least differently.
edited 4/22/10 to remove word “gyp”
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette
Wow, I hate sharing food. This is why. My husband and I went out to dinner last weekend with a couple we’ve newly struck up a friendship with, and they actually asked as we were looking at the menu, “So, are you guys sharers? How do you feel about sharing food?” It was awesome to get that right out of the way.
RSVP, if the wedding is at 7 PM, people might not be sure whether dinner is being served at the reception. If your invitations or word of mouth make it clear that it’s a cheese & dessert reception, then people will probably eat dinner beforehand and the amount of food at the reception hopefully won’t be such a big deal. (I know this doesn’t help with your invitation problem, but I’m thinking of the underlying “enough food to go around” problem — someone who mistakenly thought there would be dinner served could scarf down a lot of cheese!)
RSVP, Here’s the thing: You absolutely should not write that children under 12 are not welcome, because that implicitly states that children over 12 are welcome, whether they are, you know, INVITED or not. You could actually get EXTRA 14-year-olds you would not otherwise have gotten from people who will think, “Hmm, apparently kids are silently included unless they’re under 12, or why would she have put that on the invitation?”
I don’t want to berate you, because it sounds like you’ve come to some kind of peace about it, but I 100 percent agree with Rick (I think it was), who pointed out that the people who ignore who is and is not invited may very well ignore your note anyway (and claim, for instance, that they didn’t see it), and all you’re going to do is look kind of … cold to everybody else. Sarah’s advice about this kind of thing tends to be so good — don’t let people walk all over you, invite who you want to invite. But in the end? Not that many people are going to bring kids who aren’t invited, and those kids are probably not going to actually ruin your wedding. I mean, you’re saying that it’s space and the fact that you don’t know many kids that makes you want to exclude kids, but there’s nothing about either numbers or the composition of your circle that would make a kid a bigger problem than, say, an extra cousin or date you didn’t invite — which can also happen. I suspect that in reality, you fear that kids will be a pain at the wedding, which is understandable, but to be honest? I’ve seen more weddings disrupted by badly behaved adults.
It seems to me your rational options, based on what you’ve said are your concerns, are (1) to leave it be and understand that you may feed a few people who don’t understand invitations, or to (2) explicitly be like, “NOBODY WHO IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE INVITATION IS ALLOWED TO COME.” In which case … you may feed a few people who don’t understand invitations. Either way, without a bouncer, you won’t know for sure that you won’t see a handful of extra bodies. But you probably won’t care. Be happy, be excited, and congratulations.
RSVP: Just chiming in, while Yasmara above had 95% attendance, our wedding was about 60%. Depends on how far people will need to travel, relative health of the, erm, relatives, etc. We got married in a location central to our families (but not where either family lives) so I guess it was technically a destination affair and that cut out MANY of our attendees.
I’ll add to the chorus recommending indiebride.com, and throw in a recommendation for weddingbee.com — can be twee, but full of DIY stuff and brides who don’t have fortunes to spend on their weddings. (Plus classifieds with everything you can think of for sale — I got the dress I wore at my rehearsal dinner through them.) I am the least crafty person in existence, but I was able to adapt a few of the ideas I got through WB for use in my wedding. (My husband’s and my wedding, that is — you know what I mean.)
London Calling, if your boyfriend is really best described as this:
“He’s very, very smart but gets easily frustrated because he thinks he is surrounded or managed by incompetent dickheads, and it galls him to think that people who are less smart are promoted above him or earn more money.”
…then you had a narrow escape. Because I’ve known people like that. I’ve dated people like that. Inevitably, they are brought down by their own arrogance and inability to get along with others. Workplaces need many different types of people and contributions to function, and those who don’t understand that and conclude that they alone are indispensable while everyone else is a moron are terrible, terrible coworkers. Your boyfriend is going to keep screwing up his life and, short of therapy/an epiphany/brain-swap by aliens, will never realize that the only common denominator in all of his problems is, well, him.
@Georgia: You are correct about ‘gyp’. But FYI, even the word “gypsies” is seen as a racial slur by many english-speaking Roma people. I had no idea, until I was told this recently by a Roma friend of mine who does a lot of advocacy work.
@Lynne: My cynic-o-meter went on high thinking about all the “adults” who would just say, “Oh, but MY kids are so advanced, they would enjoy it! I’ll bring them for sure!” Only thing about hints you can count on, is that someone out there won’t get it. (And that person, ahem, is usually me…)
That said, I love the “___ of 2” will attend idea. I guess you’ll get people who ditch their spouse and bring one child, but that’s life sometimes.
Dear all,
Thanks for the advice! Sars was sooooo helpful and objective and I think I needed someone who doesn’t know me to tell me to knock it off. Yes, the revenge fantasies are great but I know I shouldn’t indulge them…yes, I have got a new haircut and I’m doing what I can to move on. Not really knowing the reasons why he left (just guessing based on how well I know him) is probably the toughest part of all…And yes, he had that attitude for every job. I’d tried to tell him that everyone at some stage or another is surrounded by people they think are incompetent or dickheads (or incompetent dickheads) and that we all get frustrated from time to time, but he didn’t listen. I know that kind of attitude isn’t healthy for anyone, for any relationship…it’s just hard to cope and I hope I’ll get there in the end, unscathed!
RSVP – the venue my brother used for his wedding actually didn’t allow children under 12 in (a licensing rule, I think, but it was a v. posh stately home so it may just have been an issue with sticky fingers on the wallpaper), so he organised a creche at our parents’ house for the kids, which was apparently an absolute blast. Maybe something along those lines – kids under 12 are not invited to the grown-ups party but will be catered for so you can both come and not have to worry about a sitter – would be a compromise that would be doing everyone a favour.
Maybe it’s just this American who read way too much as a child, but I never thought a bad thing about…Roma? The Roma? Romae? They told fortunes! They lived in covered wagons! It all sounded terribly mysterious and inventive to this suburban kid. “Oh, I’m sorry, I CAN’T take a piano lesson; I won’t live here next week.” These misperceptions are no doubt equally annoying to Romae, but Agent Weiss and I dressed up as/pretended to be gypsies all the damn time as kids, and swindles never entered into the role-playing. We just thought they were rad.
In any case, I’ve edited the usage above. I hope it’s not offensive to rookies or chess players in any way. Heh.
One option for kids at weddings is to provide kid-friendly entertainment/babysitters nearby, in a separate area. My family is reproducing in a fabulous sort of way, and sitting in pews or making small talk with boring old people isn’t really kid-friendly anyhow. (Although dancing with kids – fun fun fun!) There will still be someone who brings a crabby baby to the ceremony, but honestly, given my family, kids are the least of the embarassment potential.
Also, for folks who are traveling a substantial distance, finding a sitter in a new locale can be a real challenge, and I’d much rather have my friends and family join us than stay away because of kid-related complications.
John, thanks for the heads up.
Hey Sars: Romany. Like it matters, but, well….
I asked, so let’s assume it does. Heh.
RSVP – There’s much to be said for periodically kicking yourself to keep in mind that it’s really just a party where you get to marry the person you love, which it sounds like you’re doing now, so: good for you! You will need to keep remembering it periodically, but…it’s true, and it makes everything about wedding planning better. My mantra was, “If we’re married at the end of the day, the wedding was a success. Everything else is extra.”
Also…granted, this isn’t consistent with the horror stories we all hear about rude wedding guests, but — consider expecting your friends and family to behave well, and see if they don’t rise to the occasion. No one brought uninvited guests (adults or children) to our wedding, and we didn’t even have RSVP cards. We sent out handwritten invitations (my mother’s gift to us, as her handwriting is beautiful), with “The favor of a reply is requested by [whenever it was]” at the bottom, and I would say 75% of our guests promptly sent back handwritten responses that were fantastic and that I will keep forever, and another 20% checked in by e-mail or phone, and then I think there were maybe 5-6 people who didn’t respond, most of whom were far-flung relatives who (correctly) determined that the invitation was more of an affectionate gesture than anything.
But then, our friends are fabulous. So that might be an anomaly.
@RSVP: Yeah, what Stephanie said about “we have reserved 2 seats in your honor†on the reply cards. It’s a little stuffy, but a LOT less tacky than “no kids†on the invitation itself.
And, as Sars and Lisa both pointed out, some dolt will show up with an uninvited extra, no matter how you spell it out for them. Happened at my wedding, happened at nearly every other wedding I’ve ever attended. Guestzillas abound. It’s an awkward moment in the receiving line; after that, you’ll be too busy to notice. Since you won’t have sit-down service, you can’t punish them with assigned seats, but someone will somewhere down the line. Take comfort in that knowledge.
Another etiquette note: it’s totally OK to have a cake/chocolate fountain/fruit and cheese spread instead of a full meal…as long as you’re not holding festivities during generally-accepted dinner hours. Try sticking a bunch of working adults with canapé and punch at 7:30 PM on a weeknight, and you’re just begging for a black-tie reenactment of “Alive.”
I got married last year in an evening, child-free wedding, and our method was to tell our moms that we weren’t inviting kids, and let them spread the word. I mean, we told our friends with kids that they probably ought to get a babysitter, at which point most of them said “Woohoo! Parents’ Night Out!!”
We also had the additional issue of getting married in a concert venue, which was privy to OLCC rules and if we invited minors, we had to make our over-21 guests wear wristbands. At a wedding. Classy.
I just skipped the forums entirely at TheKnot because I got annoyed by the fact that it seemed like every bride there was totally obsessed with Being A Bride and I actually had other stuff going on in my life, thus, we didn’t have much in common. My sister gave me a copy of The Anti-Bride Guide, which was awesome, and I passed it along to another friend for her wedding this summer.
When I got married, my husband and I had the ceremony on a boat on Lake Michigan. It was awesome, but we needed to adhere to a strict head count — the captain had a clicky-thing to make sure we didn’t go over. I think this was related to safety issues and his license, but whatever.
The point is, is was *our job* to make sure our invite list did not exceed the boat’s capacity (around 100), and that included assuming that some people might bring uninvited people along. What I mean is, if you can only afford 150 guests, then it’s the couple’s job to make those hard decisions, and adding a note to the RSVP won’t work in that regard anyway — I think everyone’s comments above made that clear.
That said, the size limit of RSVP’s venue gives her the perfect out if she does the “__ of 2 attending” thing: “Hi Elaine, just got your RSVP, so glad you could make it! One thing, though — our hall will only let us have 150 people, and I see you put down 6, which puts us over our limit. I know, I know! So annoying of them, but it’s a great location for everyone, blah blah blah. I was just making my table card list, so I thought I’d ask which two of you I should put down?” Yeah, awkward, but doable if it comes to that. Which, honestly, it probably won’t. We may have had a couple of people bring plus-ones, but then we had a couple who couldn’t make it, so it was fine.
One other thing: My husband and I did all of our own wedding planning and avoided any and all wedding advice sites. Sure, there were things we didn’t do that I gather we were “supposed” to do, but all we heard was that our guests loved the boat, the band, and the food/drinks, which is where we spent most of our money. No one noticed that I didn’t do place cards, or party favors, or whatever. Also, we discovered that if you tell caterers that you need enough of something to serve 100 people, it’s a lot cheaper than if you tell them that you need something for a wedding of 100 people.
@grainger, seriously? Were they involved in some kind of Bizarro World thing where the restaurant that shuts down quickest wins?
Having taken pizza orders for the past 8 years now (boy, that college education was money well spent) here’s some recommendations from An Insider on getting a good balance of happiness and well-being from your pizza pies.
1)Read the menu. No, really. You cannot concieve of how many people call up and say, “Yeah, I wanna pizza. Don’t care what kind. You pick.” That’s a really good way to get triple anchovies and spinach from a vengeful CSR. How the heck do I know what kind of toppings you like, total stranger? Give me something to work with here!
2)Read the menu. Yes, again. That way you don’t call up and ask for meatballs and cucumbers, neither of which we carry. (Yep, real requested combo.)
3) It’s awesome to ask for suggestions, especially when you’re trying to figure out numbers and slices, but be sure to have basic info about who’s eating this available. Does 10 people mean ten adults, or five adults, two three year olds, and three teenagers?
4) We can do certain things and can’t do others, and there’s good reasons for both. I highly recommend, for instance, getting two large pies and doing half and half on each one for a smorgasboard of different toppings for a small party, but we can’t do quarters on pies because it’s too difficult, time-consuming, and doesn’t fit how we charge for toppings. Of course, different places do different things, but don’t call up Pizza Place B and bitch that they don’t do it like Pizza Place A. Just call PPA and get what you want.
5)If you have food allergies/sensitivites for God’s sake be up front about it. I want you to enjoy your dinner, not puke for hours/blow up like a party balloon/die. But understand there’s only so much humanly possible that we can do. If you have a really serious dairy allergy, for example, we cannot promise that if you get a half and half pie that no cheese will touch your slices. You’ll have to get a separate pizza with no cheese and we’ll write special notes to use clean peels/cutters etc. Yes, it may cost more, but that’s life. And if you’re deathly sensitive to cheese and tomatoes and garlic and yeast? Well, sorry, pizza is not for you.
@Talking
Thanks for bringing this up and looking for guidance. I’m vegan, and have experienced the full spectrum of neglect/accommodation when it comes to group dining. When invited out to eat with friends, in the past I have just dealt with paying $12 for a salad minus the chicken (which turns out to be a bowl of shredded iceberg lettuce and a couple of tomato wedges) because it was the only thing on the menu I could eat. Now my friends either accommodate me by picking a restaurant where I have a decent option or two, I eat beforehand, or I decline the invitation.
Even if there are decent options for a vegan, the price difference can be significant if we’re sharing dishes. Recently a large group of us went to a restaurant and were informed upon arriving that the only option for such a large group is family-style. We ordered a few yummy vegan dishes, some meaty dishes, the omnivores ate some of each, and everyone was happy with the food. When the bill came, it turned out the meaty dishes added up to $100 and the veggie dishes only $50, but when a vegetarian friend tried to raise the issue to not splitting the bill evenly it was shot down. I agreed with her remark about “subsidizing their meat consumption” but we both just accepted it in the interest of not causing a ruckus.
My friend hosts potlucks twice a month, and she puts something along the lines of “Some of those attending are vegan and/or gluten-free, so please keep that in mind if you’d like everyone to enjoy your dish” on the invite. I think that’s a pretty diplomatic way of addressing the issue.
In summary, I know that I have to look out for myself when it comes to group dining because I have dietary restrictions. Still, it’s really nice to have my needs taken into consideration. I have a special place in my heart for onmi friends who check with me beforehand about the restaurant selection, or offer to split something I can eat, or offer to adjust the bill so that we each pay what’s fair. I try to do the same for friends who have restrictions I don’t have.
Thanks so much for everything, everyone. I’ve signed up at Indiebride.com and am now patiently waiting for my account to be “validated by the administrator” so I can post!
@RSVP- as a parent of a little angel, I’m in the “know how to read the invitation” and “yea!, parents’ night out” groups and inevitably at the past 2 weddings was then asked by the bride and groom where my daughter was. Often the couple doesn’t know how to address the invitation which leads to additional confusion.
“When the bill came, it turned out the meaty dishes added up to $100 and the veggie dishes only $50, but when a vegetarian friend tried to raise the issue to not splitting the bill evenly it was shot down. I agreed with her remark about “subsidizing their meat consumption” but we both just accepted it in the interest of not causing a ruckus.”
Here’s the problem: When you share food, everybody subsidizes each other. Some eat more, some eat less. Not all the meat eaters ate all the “meat dishes,” undoubtedly, and not in equal amounts. Moreover, the fact that the vegetarian dishes added up to less actually means nothing, because you don’t know how many people ate them. If two vegetarians each ate one-third of $50 worth of vegetarian food, they would owe the same as a somewhat larger group of meat-eaters who each ate one-sixth of $100 worth of meat dishes. (I’m not saying this happened, I’m just saying the total of the vegetarian dishes and the total of the meat dishes is actually completely meaningless without more information.)
Frankly, you either split it without regard for the fact that some eat more of different foods than others, or you each pay for yourselves. I realize you decided to let it go for the sake of peace, but I think you also could have let it go on the basis that vegetarians are not the only ones at the table who don’t eat all the food.
My group of friends includes two vegetarians (me included) and one person with Celiac disease (severe wheat allergy). The solution is to avoid family-style dining, really. Which does not mean that you can’t share, just that everyone orders what they want, eats whatever amount they want, and then offer tastes to others if they want. Let’s face it, usually entrees are huge anyway so there’s usually more than one person wants to eat.
Pizza is a different thing, of course. But lots of places offer small personal-sized pies, which would let you customize a bit more. One place our group goes offers a gluten-free crust in a personal size, which works out perfectly.
Payment-wise, I feel like part of what you are paying for is the group interaction. So, yeah, my veggie-fried whatever was $9 and my friend’s shrimp-something was $14. Eh. Another time I’m going to order a spendy glass of wine and she won’t, you know? I figure it evens out over time and even if it doesn’t — if you don’t like these people well enough to buy them the occasional part-of-a-dinner, then decline the invite. And if you go out as a group so often that it’s a consistent issue, then agree to do a bit of research into places that can accommodate everyone easily. That way, maybe you find a place where you can become regulars and the staff will get accustomed to your group’s quirks and needs, making everything even easier.
Linda, I initially included the break-down of how many of each kind of eater was present, and exactly how many of each dish we received, and my perception of how many omnis ate how much veggie food, but deleted it for the sake of brevity. I probably should have included the fact that the “meaty dishes” were in fact plates of meat with no sides, so any omni who wanted something other than 3 kinds of meat did partake in the veggie dishes.
I realize that in any group dining situation, there will be a difference in how much each person eats and what they choose to eat. The important distinction, from where I sit, is that my vegetarian/vegan friends and I (at least those who were present) abstain from meat on moral grounds. I do not eat animal products mostly because I do not want my money to support the industry. So, paying $28 for a meal that, had we all shared veggie food instead, would have cost $23 (I just did the math) means that $5 of my money, and $5 of each of my friends’ money, went to the meat industry. I know that doesn’t seem like a whole lot, and at the time it really wasn’t worth calculating new totals for everyone based on what they ate, but it’s still frustrating for me.
I think it’s different, than, say, someone who simply doesn’t like something choosing not to eat that dish and still paying for part of it. I think my situation is more comparable to someone who is religiously or morally opposed to alcohol having to chip in for others’ alcohol consumption.
London Calling:
I was heartily shafted by an ex-boyfriend and former best friend, and consumed by the thought of revenge for a while. Then I read a quote about revenge and power that I wish I could find. It said something like “the powerful person in a conflict doesn’t want revenge.” Revenge is the way the less-powerful person tries to even out the power balance.
My pride was so insulted at the thought that I’d be the less powerful person in any exchange with those two that I instantly dropped any revenge daydreams.
I still don’t feel like I’m settled with the two of them (although I never see them), but I’m not haunted by the idea of taking revenge any more. I don’t have to prove to them or me that (as between us) I had plenty of power.
RSVP: I’m sorry to disagree with Sars, but if you do not want kids at your wedding you will have to spell that out right on the card. And possibly post guards. Otherwise there are always people who will bring kids–to your wedding, to office Christmas parties, to a “college-anniversay” themed birthday whose invitation includes the phrase “bring your favorite drinking game.”
If it really is a food issue, a cheap solution is to buy 20 or so boxes of Mac N’ Cheese and two packages of hotdogs. Make a big ol’ pot of Mac N’ Cheese N Weenies. The kids will be happy, as will a surprising number of the adults.
“Another etiquette note: it’s totally OK to have a cake/chocolate fountain/fruit and cheese spread instead of a full meal…as long as you’re not holding festivities during generally-accepted dinner hours.”
I completely agree…and I’m sorry to say, RSVP, that 7pm Friday falls squarely in generally-accepted dinner hours. No, you absolutely do not have to feed your crew a full meal, but could you indicate something like “Cake and light refreshments will be served” on the invite? When I read an invitation for a wedding that starts at 7pm, I read that as This Wedding Will Include Dinner. Your guests might appreciate a gentle heads-up that they should eat dinner beforehand.
Re @London:
“But he thought that London would be different — that if you work hard, you’ll get your rewards and recognition.”
I moved to London once with this expectation. I discovered why the pilgrims left England and founded America.
I’ve got kids, and getting a “No kids” invitation wouldn’t bother me in the least.
I mean, I might not be able to GO, because one of the girls has special needs and the babysitter situation is just kind of…not happening right now, but I wouldn’t be all butt hurt about it, because it’s not about me.
If you don’t want kids at your wedding, don’t invite kids. It’s YOUR wedding, not my kids’ wedding.
One of my all time favorite wedding invitations included this line at the bottom: “No kids, please. Well behaved dogs welcome.” I’m sure this just made several heads explode, but you kind of had to know the bride.
The wedding was lovely, by the way. A small pack of very well behaved dogs patroled the reception, sniffing any butts that needed sniffing, licking the faces of the lonely or bored, and snuggling any and all takers.
“One thing about him though was his attitude to work. He’s very, very smart but gets easily frustrated because he thinks he is surrounded or managed by incompetent dickheads, and it galls him to think that people who are less smart are promoted above him or earn more money.”
I was once engaged to this guy. (Well, not this guy, but you know what I mean.) In the 10 years since we split up, he’s had at least seven jobs, all over the world, several of which he quit with no notice for the very reasons listed here.
Had I married him, my career would have been in shambles, since I also would have had seven jobs in 10 years … if I was lucky enough to find a job in whatever new city was the place where he would finally be rewarded for his hard work this time.
London, I know it doesn’t feel that way now, but you probably dodged a bullet.
@ Adrienne: As a vegetarian (not vegan, at least not yet) I totally understand your frustration, but you could argue that spending money at a restaurant that serves meat is supporting the meat industry, you know? (I’m not judging or even saying that I think that; it’s just that we live in the world and it’s close to impossible to entirely isolate ourselves from the industries we object to.)
I guess what I’m saying is that at some point you have to decide whether it’s OK to you and your veggie/vegan friends to have dinner with your omni friends. If the answer is yes, then you kind of have to let the math go, and look at it as another opportunity to show your omni friends how awesome vegan food can be, just by being there and enjoying it. My brothers and their kids have become a lot more accepting of my veggie ways simply because I bring “that couscous salad thing” to Thanksgiving dinner, and it’s become a favorite side dish for them. That said, if your omni friends don’t respect your views, and always choose the “meatiest” entrees or restaurants on purpose, then that’s a different thing. Are they willing to sometimes visit a mostly veggie/vegan place that you can feel good about?
If it’s really become too frustrating (and I understand that too), then maybe inviting friends over for a buffet-style vegan dinner is your best bet. Have your omni friends bring the wine, bread, and dessert, and have the veggie folks bring the entrees.
Well, I’ve played around with my RSVPs a little, and here’s what I’ve come up with. The funky font, will be me filling in their names and number of seats, in my own handwriting. So, you have to use your imagination a little.
http://tinyurl.com/zb3wjh
Well, that tinyurl link doesn’t seem to want to work.
Here’s the original link:
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad195/Tisha-/Wedding/FilledOutTest.jpg
This is the vegan Adrienne. I realized after posting that there is already a different Adrienne here who posted above me on a different topic.
MizShrew, I appreciate your positive outlook on how one can subtly influence omnis to appreciate veg food. I agree and that’s my main tactic, too. I honestly didn’t walk away from that meal grumbling or resentful of my (close, wonderful, totally supportive) friends. My hope in posting about that meal originally was that people who do not have dietary restrictions that are based on moral/ethical/religious grounds might read it and consider that their friends who do have these restrictions might share my perspective and my occasional frustration.
When I was vegetarian an assistant principal at the school where I taught would make sure to order veg pizzas when we had faculty meals, and would stand waving his arms over them and asking anyone who reached for a slice if they were vegetarian or not. “These are for my veggie people! You can come back when they’ve had enough!!” I would never expect someone to do that for me, but I loved that man the entire time I was there because he showed such consideration.
Compare that to the principal at another school where I taught, who, upon my asking if there would be vegetarian sides available at the pork barbeque faculty dinner, or if I should pack my own meal, replied, “Ummmmm, no. I don’t even think about people with dietary restrictions.” Really? It didn’t occur to you that there are an awful lot of people who don’t eat pork, for a variety of reasons?
So, as I said above, I know that I have to look out for myself when it comes to food. I really really really appreciate others taking my needs into consideration, but ultimately it is my own responsibility to make sure I am fed and happy. For me, sometimes this means subsidizing others’ meat consumption. As for the argument that dining in a restaurant that serves meat is supporting the meat industry…I can see that point, but we all have to make decisions about how far to take our moral stances and what we are willing to sacrifice. Maybe I’ll reach a point in my veganism where I can no longer eat in the presence of meat. I do find myself getting increasingly grossed out when there’s meat on the plate of the person next to me or I can smell it cooking. I’m not there yet, and in the meantime I’m willing to sacrifice a little of my comfort in order to accompany friends on these excursions.
Adrienne: I hear you about supporting the meat industry. But honestly, if you feel that strongly about it, then as MizShrew said, you really can’t go to a restaurant that serves meat at all. You could easily be subsidizing their meat operations by a massively larger markup (and thus profit) on your veggie dishes. I know that your “it’s different if I’m abstaining on moral grounds rather than taste grounds” thing makes sense to you, but does that mean that if one is a taste/heart-health vegetarian rather than a moral vegetarian, then one splits the bill equally instead, because now it’s not moral? What if you’re just “no red meat” and there’s a red meat dish? What if you want to contribute to everything except the lamb, because you specifically object to lamb? What if you don’t drink and you don’t want to support the alcohol industry by chipping in for dishes made with wine?
I’m not saying you don’t have a leg to stand on; I’m saying that other people would equally have OTHER legs to stand on about why they shouldn’t have to pay for things that would make equal sense to them even if not to you. I’m not accusing you of being a jerk or anything — you’re clearly not looking to start trouble. I’m just saying I still think that for everyone, not just for you, group dining means you pay as part of the group, and majority rules, and you spend some money in a way you otherwise might not. You’re a little put-upon in this situation, but so are people who eat a little less, and so are people who don’t care for the most expensive dish that was ordered, and so are people who would have had seconds but there wasn’t enough. And it’s totally cool if you don’t want to play those compromises, but that’s when you order for yourself. If I went out with people as a group and somebody started saying “We can split the bill, except for me, because I should pay less, and here’s why,” they wouldn’t get far with me, either.
London Calling: I just wanted to comment on your statement:
“But here’s the thing: no one is supposed to know he got fired or why. He and his former employer signed a legal agreement not to badmouth each other. He told his new employer he was made redundant. Chances are, if anyone knew what really happened, or that he’d lied during the recruitment process, he’d get into a lot of trouble.”
In the UK this is a Compromise Agreement and is common practice for high level roles or when someone leaves due to a disciplinary issue but the company feels they may have not followed the correct process for managing or disciplining the individual. If the old employer is giving a reference saying he was made redundant then they take on the liability for this and depending on his role it may be technically true if the compromise stated this even if it’s not really the situation as you see it. If this has been agreed as part of the Compromise (and you would nearly always agree a stated reference as part of this) then he’s not lying to te new employer.
Also, on the Permanent Residency side of things – I don’t think there is much you can do about his status now but you should be aware that this could impact your ability to sponsor anyone else in future if you met another non UK/EU resident.
On a more positive note, London is a great city and a fantastic base for travel so I think you’ll just have to focus on the why you moved in the first place and continue to take advantage of the opportunities (well apart from the current volcano issue).
Linda,
I’m going to try to return to the original questions posed by Talking, because this is becoming a little too much of criticizing my particular version of veganism and how I practice it. Like I said, I set my boundaries, I choose my sacrifices; we can hash those decisions out on a vegan forum, but this isn’t really the time or place for that discussion. An analysis of how the meat industry actually works and how one does or doesn’t contribute to it doesn’t seem particularly relevant.
What does seem relevant, to me, as it pertains to Talking’s original set of questions, is this statement of yours: I’m not saying you don’t have a leg to stand on; I’m saying that other people would equally have OTHER legs to stand on about why they shouldn’t have to pay for things that would make equal sense to them even if not to you. I agree completely. That’s why, if a friend of mine were to voice something along the lines of “But I didn’t drink tonight” or “But I didn’t eat any of the appetizers” or “But I’m religiously opposed to eating mushrooms and you all shared a dish that had mushrooms in it” (two of my housemates are opposed to eating mushrooms, and I chow down on mushrooms regularly, so this could happen) I would then offer to chip in a little more to correct the imbalance. I think it’s completely ridiculous to share dishes or dine family-style and then try to calculate an exact cost for each person depending on what they ate and how much. But I don’t think it’s too much to ask that if someone does voice an opposition to splitting everything equally, friends take that request into consideration.
I was drawing a distinction between my moral grounds for abstaining from some food and others’ taste preferences in light of Sars’ point that, “Family-style is different, because the sharing is the whole point, and when it comes to that, you have to distinguish between ‘doesn’t like’ and ‘can’t eat.’ You want to respect ‘doesn’t like,’ of course, but it’s the difference between ‘doesn’t like peanuts in main courses, but can push them to a corner of the plate’ and ‘will blow up like a fugu if a peanut comes nigh.'” My veganism is on the “can’t eat” side of her equation. You can dispute that, but if you’re not vegan or don’t make other food choices on religious/ethical/moral grounds, I’m not sure we’re on the same page. I don’t like raw tomatoes, so if they’re on a shared salad I’ll push them off of my portion. I don’t eat animal products, so if there are eggs in the fried rice, or cheese on the appetizer, I won’t eat any. I then have to weigh whether I want to make a point about the fact that I didn’t eat any, or just suck it up and pay the same that they do even if I walk away hungry. That’s my decision to weigh, and my friends’ choice to agree or not, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to feel frustrated if I do point it out and they ignore me. That’s only happened to me one time as far as I can remember. Then again, I do have wonderful friends, most of whom are vegetarian or vegan.
So my answer to the gist of Talking’s questions is that I think it’s preferable if everyone is a little flexible but everyone is also considerate of each other.
AdrienneVeg,
I never intended to make the discussion a forum on/criticism of your veganism (which I completely respect) and I apologize if it came out that way. I was just chiming in with my own experience as it related to your frustrations and the lines we all have to draw every day. I agree that mutual consideration goes a long, long way and that the kind of good friends who are worth spending time over dinner with are the same people who will make adjustments so that everyone has a good evening. I’m not going to suggest a pasta joint if my friend with Celiac disease is joining us, and my friends don’t suggest a steak joint if they want me to come along.
That said, I thought of another analogy that gets at my view of bill-splitting from a non-food angle. Let’s say a group of friends want to get together to see a particular band. Let’s assume that I don’t care for the band, but I want to see my friends anyway. So I ante up the $8 cover charge. Now, if one of my awesome friends realizes that I don’t dig the band and buys me a drink, super-cool. If not, no big.
Now let’s say that the band is one I find personally repugnant for some reason — to avoid politics we’ll say they are a Bee Gees cover band and I would rather gouge out my eyes with a grapefruit spoon than listen to them. Chances are that I’m going to tell my friends, “thanks for the invite, but I’m couch-surfing it with the cats tonight. You guys have fun, though!” If they know me at all they’ll understand and next time they’ll choose to go see a band I really like.
We had a space/people limit at our wedding/reception, and handled it by only putting the names of the people we were inviting on the envelopes. The caterer said to only expect 65% of the people we invited to show up, regardless of how they may have RSVP’d. That is about what we ended up with.
However, between the time of sending the invitations and the end of the reception we had to field calls from distant relatives telling us they were bringing their daughter and her boyfriend since the husband couldn’t make it, and people who were sure that we would understand that they had to bring their baby and, and, and…you get the idea.
Hopefully you have only one wedding in your life, it is the biggest event you ever put on, and afterwards you get to leave it behind and enjoy some privacy on your honeymoon.
Oh, how could I forget the part where my brother’s young child threw up all over him, his wife and their two other children so they had to show up in their grubbies as those were the only extra clothes they brought with them. It all makes for memorable stories afterwards.
But don’t expect anyone to follow rules- that isn’t how it works. As my husband and I tell bride-and-grooms-to be; the wedding isn’t about you- it is about your family and friends. The marriage is about you.
@Kiwichick: The Compromise Agreement allowed for a standard reference but it specifically was limited to the dates worked and position. He could say whatever he liked to his new employer but was not allowed to disclose the real reasons for ending the employment.
I have spoken to the UK Border Agency and they have assured me that it will not affect me if I meet someone else who is not a UK/EU citizen, which is good.
@Karen in Japan: You’re right. When he left his job to come to London, he made a farewell speech about how shit the place was and how it didn’t reward people with talent. I can definitely see him burning his bridges wherever he goes. So while I am sad at what’s happened, part of me is a tad relieved that I don’t have to worry about it anymore.
@Bria- such good advice! When my nephew got married they provided no food or drink (not even water!) at the reception. I was more than a little irritated since my husband and I had been taking all the wedding photos for hours before the ceremony and our very young daughters were in the wedding. Thankfully I’d packed a supply of snacks and juice boxes or there would have been a major toddler meltdown.
I didnt realize it was considered tacky to say no kids. I get “Adults Only” reception cards all the time in invitations–maybe it is acceptable in my working class town? Is it regional?
We sent out formal invitations and on the reception card stated “Adults Only Reception and Dinner immediately following the ceremony.” I felt that was a tasteful way to say, “Sure, my 7 year old cousin can come to the church if you really want to bring him but not to the reception”. If a kid showed I would have been annoyed but it wouldn’t have been the end of the world. Luckily the invite seemed to do the trick and I don’t feel it was rude.
@AdrienneVeg just no, I’m sorry but no. Your veganism is not a definite fall into the can’t eat or “will blow up like a fugu” category. I also abstain from certain foods due to religious reasons, and while I understand the whole, can’t just push the shrimp to the side and not eat it part (cause I won’t do that either), but if the spoon from the shrimp happens to get used in another dish and I don’t know about it and keep eating it, I’m not going to have a hospital bill at the end of it. Can’t eat, is can’t eat and chose not to eat for whatever reason is a CHOICE. That choice could be political, religious or just plain I think it tastes bad and your friends should get that (and order accordingly), but in group dining, the group pays. I’m sorry if that sounds a little harsh, but it really gets to me when people equate choices with legit medical issues.
To RSVP
We had an adults only wedding, but we made the choice because we were having an open bar, and knew it was going to be pretty lively. My husband and I had been to a wedding with an open bar where we saw kids get knocked around by people on the dance floor, and we decided that wasn’t what we wanted.
We put a little note on the RSVP card, and that was that.
During and afterward, some of our guests thanked us because they saw the evening as a guilt-free opportunity to have a date night.
We have a three-year-old now, and I wouldn’t dream of bringing her to a wedding or reception. She wouldn’t really enjoy it, and neither would I, since I would have to chase her around all evening.
The bottom line is this – it is your wedding. While I think it is your responsibilty to provide a safe and comfortable atmosphere for your guests, I also think it is an important event in your life, and it should be as you choose.
Good luck – and congrats!
Sherry,
I didn’t mean to equate myself with people who have severe allergies to certain foods. I don’t have any such allergies so I should be more sensitive to what that’s like. However, I think my avoidance of animal products and your avoidance of shrimp are different than Sars’ example of someone who can push an item to the side of their plate and move on with the meal. I don’t think this is black-and-white, but rather a continuum of how willing/able one is to come in contact with certain food.
But if there are only two choices (push the item(s)aside or don’t touch the food at all), I fall on the same side as people with allergies.
I really don’t want to belittle the difficulties of having food allergies. I made that comment originally because a lot of omnivores think that I’ll be fine if I just pick the pieces of bacon out of my salad or scrape the melted cheese off of a sandwich. My grandmother, for instance, thinks that pasta sauce is vegetarian as long as she pulls the meatballs out before serving it (after they’ve been stewing in it for an hour or so). I knew a girl who was not vegetarian but was so grossed out by the taste of pork that she couldn’t eat a sandwich if the knife that had been used to cut it had just been used on a ham sandwich. Her reasons weren’t moral or religious but her dislike was strong enough to put her on the same side and you and me.
Adrienne Veg
I suggest that we make three categories, can’t eat, won’t eat, and prefer not to eat.
I don’t eat pork or shellfish cause, Jewish. I don’t eat cooked regular fish, cause ew and I don’t eat spicy or really greasy food because the ulcers aren’t really a big fan.
After all of that I do understand where you’re coming from. I have a friend who just couldn’t figure out why we had to order two small pizzas instead of one large half cheese, half sausage. I also work at an office that has a potluck “Holiday” party. We usually have enough food for 100 (~35 people in the office) but I still have to bring something cause it’s a ham, shrimp cocktail, sausage, maybe some meatballs (with ground pork added in). I get my revenge by doing things like making kugel, and then when they ask what it is I just say kugel and watch the funny faces.
I’m probably a little extra touchy on the your choice is not equivalent to my medical issue right now since my insurance company might not cover some rather expensive medical therapy to heal a wound, now if I had a drinking problem…….
Sherry,
Sorry about your medical troubles and for not being sensitive enough to those issues to begin with.
Also, I’m continually shocked by the ubiquity of pig products. I once watched (well, not watched) a Muslim friend make himself throw up after he found out that the potato chips he was eating contained lard. If people want to eat pork at home or order it for themselves in a restaurant, whatever, but maybe when bringing it to a potluck be mindful that you’ll likely be excluding a number of people from enjoying your dish. Just saying.
I think your three categories are fair.
AdrienneVeg,
Yeah they really like to hid stuff, Italian food is the worst, you never know whats hiding in the sauce. At least Judaism has an out. If you don’t know its pork when you eat it, you’re in the clear. Although I did have to leave my apartment one day when my roomate decided to cook ham steaks for dinner. I have never smelled anything quite so revolting.
Luckily we got a new admin at work last fall and she took it upon herself to force our boss to get half a ham and a turkey breast instead of just one whole ham. It was nice to be able to eat a real lunch, instead of waiting and filling up on brownies and cookies for dessert (which really wasn’t that bad). You would think that people would think of what others would like to eat when it comes to a potluck, but since I’m the only Jew and no muslims or veggis…. it just doesn’t seem to occur to them until I’m standing there asking if I can eat it.
But my friends are good about it. We like to go out for Tapas for which the sharing is inherent. If there are only two or three people, we just make sure everyone can eat everything. The food at the place we go to is so good it really doesn’t matter what we order. If I go with a larger group and they really want something traif, I just claim a slighter larger portion of something else.