The Vine: April 22, 2005
Hi, Sars,One of the things I like about your advice is that you have no problem telling people when to step off and mind their own business. So obviously, my question is about whether I should step off in this situation.
“Jay” has been my best friend since elementary school. He’s a great guy in his own right, and even moreso considering that he had fuckwit parents — his father was emotionally and I would guess physically abusive and his mother was practically catatonic and definitely didn’t do much to protect her kids. When we were kids, I didn’t realize how bad things were; believe me, I wish I had wised up back then.
Anyway, when we were in high school, he basically had a nervous, depressive breakdown and he was hospitalized and to make matters work, the people there were pretty incompetent. They drugged him up to the gills and since his parents had pretty much written him off, treating him was pretty low on their priority list. Eventually, I told my ex-girlfriend about it and her mother, who was a social worker, intervened and got him out of the hospital and by the next fall, he was back to his old self. He took some extra credits to make up for the school he missed, got a scholarship to an elite school, and basically cut off contact with everyone from that time in his life except me.
Since then, he’s done incredibly well for himself. He’s doing really well professionally and two years ago, he married “Kate,” who is just terrific in general and basically perfect for him. Between that bad episode when he was sixteen and now, there have been times when he seemed deeply unhappy (if not depressed), but he always seemed to drift out of it, and afterward he’d insist that it was nothing. Because he had such a bad experience during his in-patient stay, he’s phobic and/or dismissive of psychiatry/psychology, and he insists that he can willpower his way through his “bad spots,” and mostly he has, so how can I argue with that?
But the last few times I’ve spoken to him, he’s sounded worse than he has in years, alternating between paralyzing terror and complete disinterest in ordinary things and sounding totally despondent and self-hating. Also, he keeps mentioning needing to hide things from Kate so she “won’t worry.” I didn’t know for sure until recently, but it turns out he never told her about that breakdown.
I was already kind of weighing over whether or not I should say something to Kate, just a vague hint, when she happened to call me. She’s pregnant.
So right now, I’m really struggling with what I should do. In general, I do subscribe to a MYOB theory of life, but I’m worried about Jay, who does seem to worse shape than I’ve seen him in for years, and the pregnancy is really throwing me for a loop. It just seems unfair to Kate to keep her in the dark about this, especially if things get worse and she ends up having to deal with it either at the end of her pregnancy or with a newborn. I don’t believe for a second she would be anything but supportive (although I know Jay, in his current state, is terrified of losing her), and I also think that if Jay is ever willing to seek help, it might be for Kate and the baby’s sake, more than his own. I’ve tried to tell him that I think he owes it to himself to try therapy again, but he just can’t hear it, at least not from me.
Do you think I should tell Kate, both that I’m concerned about Jay right now and about his past history? I’ve thought about saying something vague, like there’s “some history of mental illness,” in his family, but in light of the pregnancy, that seems kind of half-assed. I’ve asked Jay to talk to Kate, but he refuses, and there’s really no one else who knew him when who’s still part of his life. Should I ask him again, and say if he doesn’t talk to Kate, I will? Or should I just shut up and keep my fingers crossed?
Thanks,
Reluctant Nosy Parker
Dear Nosy,
What you do depends on how bad it gets with Jay, I think. You do have to assume that Kate isn’t oblivious, that she’s noticed a change in him herself and that, on a day-to-day basis, she’s either doing what she needs to, or can do what she needs to. You also have to assume that informing Kate of a fairly major element of Jay’s past, which he deliberately hid from her, is going to cause major problems in the marriage and will probably end the friendship.
On the other hand, sometimes people don’t see things they’re close to, and more importantly, a general (wise) practice of staying clear of other people’s shit no longer applies if one of the people is in danger. If Jay is talking about killing himself, or dropping subtler clues about doing it — saying he’s giving stuff away, implying in any way that he won’t be around for a given event — then you’ll have to fall on your sword and tell Kate, for Jay’s safety.
For now, just keep the lines of communication open; keep an eye on things, and let him know both that you’ll be there for him to talk any time and that you really think he should share some of this stuff, with Kate or with a pro, preferably both. She’s going to find out, eventually, if he lets it go long enough, which he really shouldn’t do, for his own sake or for his family’s.
But for now, don’t talk to Kate unless you feel Jay is going to harm himself. He really should handle this on his own, and you have to stay out of his way and let him, even if you don’t agree with how he’s going about it.
Hi,I’d appreciate your take on my ongoing estrangement from my sister, which
will pass the one-year mark this weekend. My mom wants us to “make up” at
all costs; my partner says I’m better off without her, that she’s just
treating me like she has treated other family members and friends in the
past, so there’s no point wasting my time anymore. I could use some outside
perspective.
First, the basics on our early years. I’ll try to keep this a brief as
possible, but I think there are some things at play that factor into this.
I’m 31; E is 28. We had a fairly typical middle-class suburban childhood…until our parents’ marriage dissolved, though I guess that is pretty
typical, too. They divorced when I was 12 and E was 9. My mom became an
alcoholic and progressed to prescription pill addiction, which has continued
off and on pretty much ever since. During this time, I became in many ways
the stability for my sister — looking after her however I could.
I was the typical “good girl” in high school (mainly because I was gay,
closeted in my Bible belt high school, and therefore didn’t really have much
else to do, but that’s another story). Anyway, I went to college on a
scholarship, took an unpaid internship at a newspaper that became a
reporting job and now, eight years later, a pretty high-level editing job.
Along the way, I came out to the family, they dealt with it, I met a woman
who turned out to be perfect for me, blah-blah-house-baby-second kid on the
way cakes.
My sister has taken a different path. She fought with our parents, ran away,
enjoyed sex, drugs, skipping school and a lot of other things that in many
ways I wished I had loosened up and not missed out on. It took her seven
years to graduate from college, after a period of pretending to be in school
(and getting tuition refunds to have money) and then officially dropping out
(which I had a lot more respect for). As a result, she’s just now getting
settled in a career.
Anyway, during all the years of my sister’s turmoil, I’ve been the one who
stuck up with her to the family, and tried to make it clear to E that my
only real concern for her isn’t that she reaches some status, but that she’s
happy. I didn’t care if she graduated college, just that she had a job and
was productive in some way, could take care of herself. Didn’t care that she
smokes pot daily and uses other drugs, so long as she still takes care of
her responsibilities (unlike our mother). She dates girls and identifies as
gay, but I know she sleeps with men too and I have also made it clear that
it really doesn’t matter to me what her “sexual orientation” is or isn’t, so
long as she is happy.
Anyway, we were very close up until last year. Then our grandmother, a
mother figure to both of us, died suddenly last March — a week after our
stepfather, an alcoholic, shot his foot off halfway up the stairs, on his
way to my mom’s room. (Police thought on the way to harm her.)
After the shooting, I left my partner and toddler, took a week off, went
home to move my mom to an undisclosed apartment. E was “too upset” to cut
short her spring break vacation to come help (I include this as it is very
typical of my sister — either didn’t show up or showed up late to every
family holiday, never returns calls or emails, never remembers anyone’s
birthday, et cetera, but God forbid anyone forget hers).
When we were small, our family (my mom, her two kids, my aunt, her two kids)
always spent Easter with my grandparents at their beach house. So the four
grandkids decided to spend Easter there, as a sort of “Farewell to Grannie”
weekend. Before the weekend, we sent emails back and forth (everyone copied)
to plan who would bring what, what we would do for meals, et cetera.
E showed up last that Friday night, loaded and weepy. On Saturday, she slept
late, went to the grocery store, then polished off about a 12-pack on her
own (not unusual). We had decided to grill out that night — everyone make a
side dish, then bring what they wanted for the grill (E is a vegetarian,
others don’t eat red meat, et cetera, so that seemed easiest).
So we cooked. We grilled (chicken, steak, veggie burgers). When it was time
to sit down to dinner, it just felt a little weird to start eating, and my
cousin suggested we say the short blessing my grandfather had said at every
meal.
E is vehemently atheist, and she immediately went off — “Why would you
pray?” My cousin is religious, so that’s why she would do it, I decided to
more as a bit of closure. Cousin just said, “Well, whoever wants to can,”
and I think four of the seven of us did.
Then we sat down to eat, but E didn’t come to the table. I asked her what
was wrong, and she totally lost it — yelling and cursing at me (in front of
my toddler) that I “never” respected her being a vegetarian because we
cooked steak (in the past, she had never complained about people eating meat
in front of her, as long as there were alternatives for her, and she could
have brought that up during our email menu planning if it really bothered
her).
From there, it was the prayer, and some discussion we had had about some of
us going to sunrise service on the beach, something we had done with my
grandparents. “How can you worship a God who won’t let you love who you want
to love?” she kept screaming at me.
Now, sunrise service was actually her idea — she brought it up, said she
didn’t want to go but would cook breakfast that morning for those that did.
And she knows I’m not big into religion… Essentially I’m an agnostic, and
like E, I can’t remember the last time I went to church except for a wedding
or funeral. Not that that mattered to her then.
So she stomped off and went to bed. Got up the next morning and left without
speaking to anyone. And that’s the last time I’ve seen her.
Not that I haven’t tried. But she blew off my daughter’s birthday party
(which she had previously said she would attend), and didn’t respond to
multiple phone messages I left her, including ones when I said I wanted to
talk about our mom’s pill use, which worsened after my grandmother’s death.
She finally called me back once, said she didn’t think it was a problem.
(I’ve since heard that my mom had been visiting E very often, and they
drink, et cetera, together. Nice).
I was included in a blast email that invited folks to visit her over the
summer when she was taking a training course out west (we live on the east
coast), but that would have been impractical for me with a toddler. She did
call me on my birthday in August, and we talked briefly. Then a close friend
of hers died in September.
E never talked to me about it, but my mom relayed that E wanted to write an
obituary for the person in the paper where I work. I sent her a long email
(her preferred means of communication) explaining that I couldn’t let her do
that (although she had written a couple of freelance stories for me, she was
too close to this story), but I would write it myself so they wouldn’t have
to deal with a reporter they didn’t know.
Although I left her messages and emails explaining deadlines, asking for
contact information for sources, and asking if there was anything I could do
for her after the loss, she never responded.
A month or so later, I got a one-sentence email thanking me for the obit. I
responded, asked how she was doing, and let her know I would have come to
the memorial service — only I was pregnant, and having bleeding, and had
to stay in bed.
She never responded to news of the pregnancy or potential loss (although
thank god everything turned out okay). She also never responded to my call
on her birthday in October, or other calls or emails.
Thanksgiving and Christmas had been held at my house for the last four
years, so when November came, I emailed her to let her know who was coming
and ask her to let me know if she was bringing anyone (she usually did).
Two days before Thanksgiving, I get COPIED on an email she sent to our
father, saying she was going to a friend’s house. “Sorry, but dead turkeys,
prayers, and unaddressed issues with L are not what I’m up for.” Exactly a
repeat of the Easter outburst. (I could go on about how nobody prays at my
house, et cetera, but why bother?)
So after being blown off like that, I didn’t bother to send her an email
about Christmas — then heard from my mom that she didn’t show up for that
because she “wasn’t invited.”
Also heard from my mom that E is mad because I “never respect her beliefs”
and “don’t take an interest in her life” and “never visit her” (although the
one time I did go, I invited myself — she has never invited me).
Ironically, these are exactly the things she used to say about our mom,
before they became (apparently) drinking buddies.
So my question is this (did you think I would ever get to it?): What should
I do?
E regularly ignores family and friends — I’ve just never been on the
receiving end of it before. Everyone (except mom) says I should just stop
trying to reach her.
I have, mostly. I sent her a Christmas card, and called on Christmas Eve
(voicemail). And this week, when I sent out invitations to my daughter’s
birthday party, I did leave her on the list — maybe I shouldn’t have.
I just can’t believe we used to be so close, and now we haven’t seen each
other in a year. The ironic thing is, if she had just gotten up the morning
after the Easter outburst, said, “Sorry I was drunk and blew up, but I do
want to discuss these issues…” everything would have been fine. It’s the
stuff that has happened since then that has hurt me more.
Should I just try to stop caring?
Thanks,
Long-winded and Confused
Dear Yeah, That Would Do It,
Look at how long this letter is; look at all the incidents you recount in it. Every single stunt she’s pulled is designed to get your attention, and what do you know? It’s working. You’ve written a novel, The Story of Rude, and if you think she doesn’t know that she’s pissing you off, think again.
She does this because you let her — because you feel responsible for her, and, I think, because you feel sorry for her and look down on her a little bit. You don’t mean to; you want the best for her. But you’ve always looked out for her, you took on an ancillary parenting role, and you’re used to thinking of her as someone who has to be cared for, cosseted, made allowances for.
That’ll do, with that. She knows you’ll keep giving her chances, keep checking in, keep inviting her and smoothing things for her, because that’s what you do; there’s nothing wrong with that, trying to fulfill that duty to her, but the thing is, she’s knows she can be a giant childish bitch and still get your attention — and I have a feeling that, for her, for whatever reason, she likes it better making a scene and acting out than she does just going with the flow, because you go with the flow better than she does. You always have. This is about competing with you, and it’s about testing you, and she’s set it up so that you’re going to fail no matter what, so…enough.
You don’t say one thing in this letter about calling her on her twatty bullshit. Do it. Rip an I-80 strip off her for encouraging your mother’s substance abuse, flaking on phone calls, ranking on your holiday plans, being a sloppy drunk, and living in her own navel. Tell her you love her but you’re fed the fuck up with her self-absorption, and by the way thanks for giving a shit about your pregnancy, and get it together or I don’t want to talk to you. And then…don’t talk to her. She’s going to flip shit and try to turn your mother against you, but…she’s already trying to do that, and I don’t know that your mother is someone you want “on your side” anyway as far as this goes.
The point isn’t to get her to act right — she won’t, at least not on your schedule. The point is that you resent always supporting her, getting her back, not judging her, making allowances for her, and getting fuck-all emotionally in return, and you need to make that plain, in so many words, and let her know that that’s not how the game is getting run from now on. Then, she knows. She knows your limit with her, and she can observe that limit or not — you can’t make her get a grip. But you can make her understand that, until she does, that’s it.
She acts like this because she can. Let her do it out of your eyeline from now on.
Sars,I’m not sure where to go with this problem (friends and husband are all kind of at a loss of words here), but I’m addicted to The Vine and have gotten good advice from you before, so here goes!
I think I’m stupid. I’m in my first year of a graduate program, and the first semester was difficult but in a fun way. This semester is making me crap my pants. I do the reading, and it seems that I understand but when it comes time to discuss it in class, I just feel so stupid. For one, I’m very shy and quiet, which I think used to be endearing but makes me look like a bump on a log now. So I rarely (almost never) speak up in class. But when I think I might say something, someone else says it and says it better than I ever could anyway. Most of the time, though, I don’t even think of the things that people bring up in class, points they make, criticisms they have, et cetera. I just feel as if my brain has stopped working, or maybe it never did in the first place. I’m beginning to think I shouldn’t even be here, I shouldn’t be doing this because I’m just too stupid. But then I think of certain people I went to high school with, who I know are much stupider than I and are in graduate programs/have gotten graduate degrees. So then I think, they did it, why can’t I?
Another problem is that I automatically assume that other people are smarter than I am, even if I don’t know them. I meet someone, and I automatically feel that their values and opinions are somehow better than mine, which is also stupid. I never want to cause a confrontation, so I never speak up, even if I don’t agree with someone. For example, I grew up in a very homophobic area, and instead of standing up for gay rights or something, I just don’t say anything. (Not saying that those opinions are better than mine, but I somehow don’t feel comfortable enough in my own values to stand up for them.)
Finally, I feel that my leisure activities are somehow stupid and that because of them, I’m not as smart as other people (especially at school). I love playing video games with my husband, watching my Buffy and Sex and the City DVDs, reading TWoP, TN, and a handful of other sites. These are the things I love to do, and I am happy doing them. But at the same time, I feel as if I should be reading something academic — related to my field or otherwise — or reading cnn.com every fifteen minutes and getting into lengthy discussions about current events with people. As it stands, I do have discussions like this with my husband, but…he’s my husband. We fart on each other. There’s a whole different comfort level there.
So my question is, how do I get over this? How do I not feel stupid? I know on some level that I can’t be as stupid as I think I am or I wouldn’t have gotten into this program to begin with. I also know that a lot of my insecurities are coming from taking classes that I’m not really interested in, but I didn’t know that going into them. Now I know and am more guided in what I want to be studying. On the other hand, what if I really am this stupid and I’ve been fooling people my whole life? Please help!
Feeling Stupid
Dear Feeling,
Well, for starters, I had to correct, like, one thing while proofreading your letter, and it was a spacing issue, so you’re well-“spoken,” certainly. Furthermore, I don’t think people’s leisure activities have anything to do with their intellect; mine include crappy true crime and Frisbee golf, so…whatever. DON’T JUDGE ME.
I think you have a social anxiety disorder that manifests as you fixating on your smarts; you’re shy, and you lack the self-confidence to state your opinions and to participate in the give-and-take of a discussion. I mean, really, you’re in the program to learn, not to be ranked in a spectrum of how smart everyone in the program is relative to one another; if people in your classes come up with angles you don’t, you should be able to appreciate them broadening your understanding instead of turning that into obsessing about how you’d never have thought of that.
I would go see a counselor — a behaviorist, preferably, who can give you some strategies for gradually learning to speak up more, to believe in yourself and your ideas and that you can deliver them cogently. Sometimes we get into habits with our thinking that need breaking, and a behaviorist can give you some tips to get into better, more self-confident habits. It won’t be all that many sessions, and once you get into a routine of believing that you have something valuable to say, it will seem easier and more natural.
I’ve been reading your site for almost five years now. Good shit.I probably just need a good smack upside the head.
To get to the point quickly, four months ago my four-year relationship
ended. He dumped me for a Republican. It was a bad relationship
anyway, everything (video games, bars, drinking) and everyone
(friends, coworkers, “I can’t see you tonight, I met someone at the
bar and it’s his birthday today”) came before me. To be honest, the
very moment we broke up I was thrilled that he was out of my life
because he was such a drag on me. Of course, I cried on the phone to
my mother for about two weeks straight, but I’m so happy to be
single and not have him in my life.
Four months later, I can’t stop thinking about it. I keep envisioning
these scenarios where I’ll see him and what I’ll say and how good I’ll
look. Or I keep remembering every crappy and shitty thing he did and
how I let myself be treated and practically have to break my phone to
keep from calling him and cussing him out for it. Would doing such a
thing really be so bad? Or I’ll remember the times we got along and
how great it was to sleep with him and how good the sex was, even
though it was very infrequent because, guess what, video games came
before sex as well. Bitter? Why yes I am.
So my question is twofold. First of all, how long does this last?
When will I go a day without thinking about him? How can I control my
brain to stop thinking about him? It seems that the only way to
really get over someone is to find someone else. It’s not helping
matters that I’m convinced, at the age of 26, that I’ll be a spinster
all my days. No one’s shown the slightest interest in me since the
break-up or even during the four years I spent with him. And what is
wrong with me that he told me that he had better conversations with me
but he’d rather be with the Republican because she plays video games
with him? Why would a man break up with a great woman with passions
and interests and ambitions for someone who votes the way her daddy
tells her to and doesn’t even have a career goal?
And second, I’m fairly positive that I’m going to see him at a
festival next month. How should I act? Should I make a point to go
talk to him? Should I let him approach me? What if he’s with his
Republican? I can tell you right now that seeing him with her will
break my heart. Would it be completely inappropriate to make up shit
about a new boyfriend and drop a pointed comment about the rampant sex
we have? Do I have to be nice? If he approaches can I just say,
politely, “Don’t talk to me,” and walk away?
Thanks for any and all advice,
Do you have the number for the clinic from Eternal Sunshine of the
Spotless Mind?
Dear If Only,
It lasts a while. It lasts until you’ve felt all the rage you need to feel. I think that a lot of women suppress the rage, think they need to act “over it” so that nobody thinks they’re crazy and they don’t upset anyone else or create awkward situations — peh. Be mad. He sucks. He picked another girl over you, probably because he’s the kind of guy who needs a girl without much mind of her own so that he doesn’t feel threatened. Some people can do that — just compartmentalize their emotional needs so that the significant other is for sex and going to holiday parties with, and their friends are for talking. I can’t do that; you don’t sound like you want to do that, or want a guy who does that; I’ve dated enough of them to know you’re better off.
So, be pissed. It hurts. Be pissed, and — this is important — live with the being pissed for a while. Stop worrying about becoming a spinster; stop defining yourself based on what this guy thinks of you, or what other guys think of you. Define yourself as pissed. Get some Queers up in the joint, play “I’m OK You’re Fucked” seventeen times in a row, and be where you are. It’ll pass. Until it does, decorate.
And when you run into him, see: my third sentence. Who cares if he thinks you’re not over it? He broke your heart; don’t get over it for his sake, get over it for your own, and if you’re not over it when you see him, tell him, “I don’t want to talk to you, because it’s uncomfortable, because you dumped me, so, live with it,” and walk off. Or spin on your heel and leave without a word. You and he aren’t friends; act how you want to act, not how you think you “should” or how he thinks you’re supposed to. Don’t deal with him.
You care. You don’t want to care, and you wish you hadn’t cared, and you’d like to rip his balls off because he didn’t care. I’ve been there; I’ve closed down that joint many nights. Eventually, you won’t care anymore, but for now, you do, so don’t pretend you don’t; it’s what makes you who you are, namely too good for him, and if he wants to be all “whoa, simmer down,” that’s his problem. He’s with a Republican; he’s getting what he deserves.
Dear Sars,I have a girl question. There’s this girl
that is (was?) a friend of mine, that I was in love with,
unrequitedly. We were friends for a few years, and she knew the whole
time how I felt, but I guess she thought I was getting over her,
however slowly, because once we had a serious talk where I made it
clear that I probably wasn’t going to get over her anytime soon, our
relationship disintegrated a few months later. She basically called
it off unilaterally, and over voicemail to boot. I was upset about
this at first, but eventually I came to see the wisdom of ending a
relationship based around such a fundamental asymmetry. I finished
college and moved back home to the Midwest, but she was a few years
behind me in school, so she stayed on the West Coast, I figured I
would probably never hear from her again.
Recently, as the anniversary of our “breakup” approached, I was
reflecting on what happened and I realized that we still had some
unresolved issues that the abruptness of our relationship didn’t allow
us to really take care of. I sent her a letter telling her how I felt
about certain things and apologizing for certain ways that I did her
wrong. In the letter, because I didn’t think she would reply, and
because I thought there was a good chance she wouldn’t even read it, I
said that while I didn’t expect or require a response to the content
of the letter, I asked her to acknowledge its receipt, so I would know
if she read it.
She acknowledged receipt of the letter over IM, and then asked how I
was doing. That turned into a fairly brief IM exchange where we caught
up with each other, and filled each other in on what we were doing,
our immediate plans, et cetera. I thought that would be the end of it, but
then she IMed me again last week. This time we talked about a rumor
she’d heard that The Matrix was plagiarized.
This situation confuses me, and I don’t know what to do. I’m still in
love with her, and I presume she’s still not in love with me, so I
think that it would be a bad idea to try and resume our friendship,
because we’d still face a lot of the same problems. But do repeated IM
exchanges constitute a friendship? I know two don’t, but say she
keeps it up, but we never talk about anything particularly meaningful,
only covering topics like the ones above? I’m worried because I don’t
know where this is headed. If I knew it would never get more serious
than it is now, with roughly one IM conversation a week, I might be okay
with it, but my worry is that we’ll settle into the friendly comfort
zone we had before and the cycle will begin anew. We live in entirely
different parts of the continent, it’s true, but even when we lived
next door to each other, we still communicated largely over IM.
So should I cut things off now, or wait to see if it actually gets
more serious? I’ve considered cutting things off, but then I come back
to the “It’s just two IMs” line; that I’m probably making a bigger
deal of it than she is. That plus, because it was such an
insubstantial exchange, I don’t think our relationship has the level
of intimacy that you need to start talking about “the relationship.” I
would feel like a weirdo for bringing up stuff like that, especially
since it seems like I’m always the one bringing it up. That’s the way
it was the first time around too. One potential plan I’ve mulled over
would be to only bring this up if she contacts me a third time. What
do you think?
Signed,
IM Confused
Dear I’m Not,
I think you need to block her IM, now, without explanation. There isn’t a “relationship”; you’re still in love with her. The “unresolved issues” letter was an excuse to get back in touch with her, but what you really wanted out of that — although you probably should have known better — was to see if she’d changed her mind about loving you back. She hasn’t. She won’t.
I’m putting this harshly because I’m trying to save you months of unnecessary time wasted. It’s not going to go anywhere; you both saw that, before, and you can’t be friends with her because you have deeper feelings…and she doesn’t share them. You still haven’t quite accepted that, but you were the one who reached out, not her.
Block her IM, block her email. Don’t explain; she’ll figure it out. Get out of this now, because it’s going the same place it went the last time.
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette friendships the fam