The Vine: April 24, 2013
I’ve known for a long time that my husband did not have an ideal childhood.
His mom played favorites and my husband often got blamed (and physically punished) for his brothers’ wrongdoing. His brothers stole and destroyed his things without any intervention at all. I know this isn’t just my husband’s perspective because his older sister and her husband remember it the same way.
Despite all this, he’s turned out to be a pretty amazing person and a wonderful dad to our three girls. A few days ago our middle child told a story about how a friend of hers had her eyebrow shaved off in her sleep by her brother. During our discussion of how badly something like this would go over in our home, my husband mentioned that his brothers had burned his fingers with a lighter while he was asleep.
Who does that? I know that really the fault goes back to his parents. His mother spoiled and indulged his brothers beyond belief and his father seems to have been content to let her run the show. But now I’m left with this immense anger towards his brothers. He doesn’t seem to understand why I’m so angry at them while at the same time he reacts strongly to any infighting among the kids. My older two daughters (17 and 13) are as outraged as I am, while the whole thing seems beyond the comprehension of our 8-year-old.
Thankfully they live out of state so I don’t have to see them often, but how do I manage to behave like a civilized human being when all I want to do is beat the crap out of them?
Too mad to think of a clever pseudonym
Dear Mad,
The question I have is why your rage is welling up to such a degree now. I don’t blame you for feeling the way you do — Dirk has several relatives whom I would cross the street to kick in the tits — and it sounds like the burnt-fingers incident is one you hadn’t heard about before. But you seem well-versed in the rest of the favoritism and intra-sibling abuse, so I wonder what’s brought on the righteous anger at this point, and whether his family of origin and their pathologies is something you’d discussed in depth before.
I also don’t know what your husband’s relationship with his brothers is like now, if they get along like nothing happened or what. My uncle threw an ice skate at my father, overhand, that lodged blade-first in his shin; this is now told as a high-larious tale of fraternal hijinks. The Biscuit told me a few stories about his brothers…nothing criminal or oogy, but brothers have their own laws, in a way, that we won’t exactly understand (and neither would my brother, as I am a she) and which don’t apply to us. I don’t know how else to put it. This isn’t to excuse their behavior, because children should not be lighting each other on goddamn fire regardless, obvi; my point is that your husband’s way of incorporating this stuff as a grown man may not make sense to you.
Maybe it’s an “identifying with his captors” issue and you don’t feel that any positive/content feeling he has about his sibs now is valid…but they’re his brothers, they live out of state, and however he’s managing those relationships, you kind of need to accept it unless he’s going overboard in his reactions to his own kids. You mention that he does react “strongly” to sisterly squabbling at your house; if that means “hates it a bit more than you might expect,” well, whatever, everyone’s got their shit. If he’s Mr.-Hyde-ing on the girls all “GET ALONG OR GET BEAT WITH A SHOE,” yes, that shit’s rolling downhill and he must go to counseling.
You’d have mentioned that, though, I’m pretty sure. So! Talk to your husband and express to him, in direct terms but also with the assurance that you’re not “expecting” any particular response or action plan from him, that you really really loathe his brothers for the abuse they ladled on him — and by extension you loathe his parents for permitting it. Explain that you by no means want to put him in the middle, but it’s very difficult for you to make nice with the family at times because, while he may have forgiven them and you support his choice, you can’t, because they hurt the man you love and you can’t get past it. Talk it over. Discuss ways to make visits more bearable, “safe words” for when Chip is reminiscing about the time he rolled Husband into town inside a truck tire and he threw up haw haw and you can’t take it anymore. See what he says about how he feels about these things now, and really listen.
And if the fury is still really interfering with family visits and so on, go to a counselor for a few weeks and find a way around or through it, but the good news is, you want to punch his brothers purple because you’re on his team. So, let him be on your team, and try to help you deal with his crappo family without letting it consume you.
Tags: the fam
It’s always hard when painful family secrets see the light of day. Apparently there is a little collateral damage here. Maybe you were sort of coping with his baggage but this turned up the heat on it. Maybe you wonder what else happened that he hasn’t talked about. I truly hope this was the worst of it. It amounts to torture, and I think that’s why you are so angry. What kind of people physically torture someone, anyone, let alone FAMILY, in their sleep? Not to mention they could have set a fire accidentally.
I guess you can focus on the good parenting that’s happening in your house, and continue to keep minimal contact with the inlaws. I’m not sure you can ever get past the rest and be close with this new knowledge. I hope that in time things settle down as you go on with life with this man who is good despite his childhood experiences.
Yeah, I have to say that as the only girl in a house full of boys (brothers and cousins) and being a bit below the middle of the median age, shit was crazy when the adults weren’t around. I was right in the thick of it, too, having been a huge tomboy. Now that we’re all grown up we’re all still very close and a lot of the “hijinks” are just funny stories. I think certain families, but guys in particular, process things like this differently, especially if they grow up in a sort of pack. As someone who was almost set on fire by MY COUSIN’S FART and a lighter while I was asleep, I’d just kind of follow his lead and have a safe-word out during family functions as long as it isn’t really impacting his current life.
I think Sars’s advice is very good.
Me, I’d consider a constrained-to-visits-with-the-inlaws-only dosage of Xanax (or other mildly sedating agent). I mean, you can’t change anything, and their relationship is whatever it is, and if it’s only a day or two, mellow your harsh and get through it.
To add: my mom’s 2nd hubby’s fam was dreadful to him. (His brother took his kids after the first wife died!) He’d learned to cope, but mom found visits unendurable without a bit of pharmaceutical help. It was enough so she could have a ‘sheesh, what a clusterfuck’ attitude when done, which is not so bad an outcome, all told.
I agree that many brothers do things to each other that violate the Geneva Convention, but if you really have a problem with it, you do. You’re not wrong for having the problem, and for wanting to make sure that Husband’s childhood doesn’t suddenly morph him into a crazed stranger when the kids get into their inevitable battles.
But the issue here is: keeping your actual problem (that of your rage about how your loved one was treated growing up) from sprouting up a whole garden of Problem Vines (Our marriage! How will I visit with these monster men? Etc.) that will cheerfully strangle every proportion-having part of your brain if you let them. So when you’re having a mental shit fit about anything to do with his family, take a second to ask yourself “Is this the Actual Problem, that is affecting any part of our lives now [how he treats me, our marriage, our kids], or is this an Imaginary Problem Vine that doesn’t have roots in the here and now?”
I feel like you should place far more of the blame for his brothers’ behavior at his parents feet than you should with the brothers themselves. Yes, their behavior was awful, but it was awful because the parents allowed it to be and they were taught their behavior was OK. Children don’t generally set their own boundaries when their parents fail to. How would your kids treat each other if you were parenting them the way your husband’s parents raised their kids?
Now, they are of course 100% responsible for their behavior as adults, with the caveat that if they are assholes it’s probably a lot to do with how they were raised. You don’t mention what they are like now. I would say that if they have somehow grown up to be good people, you should try to cut them some major slack. If they are still assholes, well, at least you don’t have to see them much, and when you do have to see them try to remind yourself that their parents raised them this way.
@Jen S 1.0, word. No need to borrow trouble on that front; find a strategy and call it a day if it’s not a immediate concern.
There’s several family topics/people that we Do Not Discuss for the nearest and dearest (except: not), and we came up with a need to visit the nearest Sbux whenever things got beyond manageable in person. In general, it’s enough to now they’re out of town and not to plan any visits with them. When we have no choice but to see them, having an exit strategy so that you can get somewhere else and roll eyes or rant is awfully useful. Happily, we haven’t had to deal with that much in the last few years. Quite hoping we’re nearly at the point of being able to look back and say “oh, it’s been years since we’ve seen/heard from them.”
sars’ advice is spot on.
You know how in that movie* This Christmas where somebody says something isn’t funny and Regina King** says, “No, no, it’s not, but I’m going to keep on drinking until it is?”
That’s how I deal with my husband’s family. (I’m not an alcoholic or anything, and I don’t drink to extreme around them, but I’ve found that a glass or two of sweet sweet vino dulls the edges a bit, if only for an afternoon.)
My husband is the middle of three boys, all born within 3 years. The oldest is The Golden Child, and the youngest is The Baby, and poor Husband was left in the dust. This sick dynamic continues to this day, even though they’re in their 40s, thanks to my MIL. I would’ve gotten shed of of them a long time ago, but we all live in the same general area and my MIL insists on having “family time,” which normally consists of her telling all who will listen how wonderful #1 and #3 are and ignoring my husband. It’s super fun.
Damn it. I forgot my asterisks.
*Very funny movie, if you can ignore Chris Brown
**Which you should, because Regina is Teh Awesome
Mad, I feel your pain. My husband was physically abused by his father as a child, and his mother allowed it (she bore her share of abuse, too – but she recently told me one of the reasons she didn’t leave her husband earlier was because she didn’t want to uproot my husband and his brother and make them move again – to which I was all, really? so you thought letting them get beaten was a better option??? – except I didn’t actually say it, but she was and clearly still is in a world of denial).
ANYWAY. My husband knows that I loathe my f-i-l for what he did. That he took a bright, blossoming little boy and made him into an individual who still struggles mightily with depression and feelings of major insecurity.
BUT. Once our son (now 4) arrived, my husband decided to be the bigger person and allow his dad to have a relationship with his grandson. Obviously, there are massive restrictions in place – they will never, ever, ever be alone together, and we absolutely dictate the terms of every visit (there have actually only been two thus far) – but he felt his son deserved to have a grandpa on his dad’s side, and so he shall.
Do I, personally, wish we never had to see the POS again? Yes. Does my husband know that? Yes. But I think it’s also important to his healing process (yes, still ongoing, 25-30 years later) to take that control, to prove that his father didn’t “win,” to be the one who says how the relationship is going to proceed going forward.
And I respect that, and I wanted to share the story in case you think your husband might be reacting somewhat the same way. I think your best be is to keep the lines of communication open and establish that you two (or four, or five) can always talk about whether/how anything in the relationship(s) with his family makes anybody uncomfortable, sad, angry, etc.
And like Sars said – good on you for being on his team. Trust me, I understand how much it can break your heart to think of the person you love having gone through such things. I also think he’s lucky to have you.
Whatever else you decide to do about this, I highly recommend not involving your children in the outrage. This is not their battle, and it’s not their business, especially if your husband has made his peace with it (I’m assuming that’s the case)and no good will come of encouraging them to dislike The Uncles. Of course, all bets are off if they try any of that with your girls (some people don’t outgrow it). My husband’s older brothers (he had 5) put him and another brother in a refrigerator carton and SHOT AT THEM! WITH GUNS! They all, including my husband, laugh now. But I made it very clear to him that if any of them tried any of that *wanna see a match burn twice?* stuff with our boys, they would be dealing with me.
I agree with JenV
This lies much more in his parents laps rather than his brothers. I have two Halfbrothers and the stories that I heard from them and my dad were awful (full on fights, shooting each other with BB guns) The thing is people grow up and hopefully learn from what they did when they were younger. There are certainly things that I did growing up that I am ashamed of, but I was a kid and made mistakes, but I’m not the same person anymore. Look at who the brothers became, rather than who they were. (Granted if they are still assholes, that’s a different matter)
I also think Sars point about brothers being “different” to each other is important. Brothers act differently to each other than they do to other people. Both my brothers fought tooth and nail against each other, but if someone outside of the family messed with one of them, the other one would fight just as hard to protect his brother.
Your Husbands early family life was somewhat fucked up, but it doesn’t mean that it still is.(once again this only applies if his brothers are nice people now.)
Sars gave some good advice, you just need to learn to accept your husband’s relationship with his family.
My dad had a similar childhood, with older siblings and parents treating him like dirt and nothing being done about it. Only unlike LW’s husband my dad cut almost all of them out of his life as soon as he could. Consequently, of my dad’s large family, I know exactly two people. The one sister he liked who was nice to him, and one of her daughters. His sister died ten years ago so now there’s only my cousin and her husband. And I rarely ever see them.
The stories I’ve occasionally heard about my dad’s family make my blood boil too but there’s nothing really to be done about it. I’ve never met any of those people, and half of them are dead now anyway. It’s just become a fact of life.
how do I manage to behave like a civilized human being when all I want to do is beat the crap out of them
I have two thoughts, on opposite ends of a spectrum.
1. If you think they’re by-and-large good people that you or your husband want in your lives, consider actually addressing this with them. I would do it in a very structured way, with a good mediator present. Maybe they feel a ton of guilt and have wanted a way to express an apology. Maybe they are shocked to find out it was a problem. Maybe everyone will feel better after. I would not do this without a lot of structure and a professional to help.
or
2. Don’t find ways to make this better. You feel mad, rightfully, because a good person was knowingly hurt in mean ways. That’s bullshit behavior and you don’t have to tolerate or excuse it. The world is big, there are a lot of good people in it. Don’t spend time with the ones who hurt your husband. One of the things that I love about Ms. Manners is that she makes it clear that a polite “no” is also good manners. That is all you owe, to clear the bar of being “civilized.” “No thank you, I won’t be at that get-together.”
I want to hold space open for not-fixing this. You’re gonna get a lot of advice about sucking it up, and that’s one good tactic. But what they did (and how it came about) sucks. You’re mad for good reason. Maybe you really don’t want to go along with their family dynamic now. I think it is OK if you don’t.
How appropriate are your husband’s interjections about his childhood when directed toward your children? No one has brought this up yet but recounting his abuse to your children as “normal” is inappropriate and may be traumatic for them. It also puts them in a difficult spot because they may then have to interact with your husband’s abusers.
I would be concerned about drawing those boundaries first if they are problematic.
It sounds almost like Mad’s children’s stories about things going on with their friends are bringing back memories that Mad’s husband may have been repressing. It may not be ideal to have the children know this about their uncles/grandparents, but sometimes these things just come out when they’re least expected. Mad’s anger is natural – after all, this is someone she loves.
This will take time for the whole family to process. Is Dad seeing a therapist at all, or has he in the past? It might help him if he’s feeling like some old wounds have opened.
As for the kids, on the one hand, they’ll be furious for their dad (and it says a lot that the little one finds this kind of behavior incomprehensible). They may have it reinforced for them that they never want to allow that kind of behavior when they are someday parents. They will hopefully also come to terms with it as they get older, understanding that having a relationship with these relatives comes with the disclaimer that these were not particularly good people in the past, and they may want to keep some emotional boundaries in place.
I don’t have experience with this kind of situation, like other people do, but I just read an article on “altruistic punishment” on Slate or Washington Post or someplace (I can’t find it the exact blurb, but I believe this is the original Nature piece http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v415/n6868/pdf/415137a.pdf .) Apparently, there a survival-based purpose for wanting to punish jerks even if what they did didn’t happen to you. It the basis for lynch mobs and witch burnings in the extreme, but also the basis for societal expectations and the jury system on the positive side. By and large (lynchings nothwithstanding), it’s a really good thing. I think it’s perfectly natural that you’re having this response, and I wouldn’t worry about having it. However, if it’s interfering with your general enjoyment of life, take Sars’ advice and find some way of getting a handle on it.
I am so relieved to see this topic addressed, and agree with Sars’ advice–unless there is a safety issue concerning you, your husband, and most especially your children when it comes to interacting with his relatives, it is best to follow his lead on dealing with them. I would guess that your rage is tied into his brothers and parents “getting away” with treating him so badly, and not deserving to have a relationship with him now. I think that’s a normal reaction, but as the Vine and every other advice column in the known universe can attest, family situations are often very complicated and fraught with conflicting emotions.
I went through a similar process with my ex. Over the decade we were close, I heard horrific tales of the physical and emotional abuse he and his sister received from their grandmother while living with her for several years. For example: their mother called every night before bed to check on them. One night, she wasn’t able to call, and the kids (5 and 7 years old) kept asking Grandma why. Grandma got exasperated and told them their mother had died. Seriously. They wailed and were hysterical all night long and into the morning. Grandma kept it up for a full day, until mom called on schedule the next night.
At any rate, his family was large, and close. I had many occasions to interact with his Grandma, and generally avoided her because I was so angry. But my ex had forgiven her, and asked me to be nice out of respect to him and his family. I hated to do it, but as long as she couldn’t hurt him anymore, it was his decision to make.
I wrote this a while ago, when this particular relevation was still pretty fresh. I mean, you’re with a guy for 20 years, you really don’t think there’s anything you don’t know. So some of it was that. Also I think some of it was displaced anger at their mother, she really was the one to blame for the toxic environment, but she’s been dead for over 10 years now so it’s a bit harder to be mad at her.
One of my biggest worries about this whole thing was that something would happen to their father before I had any emotional handle on this whole thing. Thankfully, by the time we had a minor crisis on that front, I had enough perspective to do what I needed to get done.
And Lisa, that’s funny because back when his mom was alive, family gatherings at her house found me on the back step with a drink and another of the “in-laws” with a cigarette. Also, your husband’s family dynamic is awfully familar. Husband is also the middle of three sons born within 3 or so years, but we’re a bit older.
Just wanted to weigh in with the perspective of a sib who was terrorized by a sib and nothing was done. My brother was pretty terrible and maliciuos. He broke bones, chased me around the house with weapons (the sword holes in my childhood door are there as proof)and would come up with schemes to ambush me and attack me. He was violent and my parents did nothing. However I do forgive him for the things he did as a child. He was really truly mind blowingly violent, but it was my parents fault for not doing a god damned thing. Now the asshole shit he pulls as an adult, that’s on him. That might be your husband’s perspective as well, especially if his brothers’ have grown to be decent guys. Kids do dumb stuff and don’t think about the consequences unless there’s a parent there to teach them. I don’t really have a relationship with my brother now, but that’s because his violent tendencies went well into adult hood, and I frankly don’t trust or even like him very much. He was still pulling violent stuff well into college age when frankly he was a grown ass man who should have known better.
I highly recommend that anyone with resentments toward siblings about how they were treated as kids take a look at the book Siblings Without Rivalry. It’s a quick read and meant as a self-help/how to for parents, but it makes it clear that how parents deal with sibling issues – ignoring violence, casting children in roles, putting expectations on easier children to be the good child, failing to accept that children may at times really hate their siblings or minimizing those feelings, etc. – has a huge impact on how they grow up and their adult sibling relationships. It is not ok that husband’s brothers treated him as they did, but it really is almost entirely on the parents for not dealing with it appropriately. And while he obviously has one older sibling on his “side,” your husband might be shocked to find out how his brothers perceived events and what resentments they had that led them to act so maliciously in the first place. While some children really are “problem children” and a few are even sociopathic, the vast majority don’t get that way without a lot of parental help (or lack thereof).
If he has an ok relationship with his brothers now and is willing to cut them slack for past transgressions, it’s ok for you to put the anger where it belongs – the answer to “who does that” is, I suspect, a surpringly large number of kids whose parents turn a blind eye or make other missteps in dealing with siblings. There’s no changing the past, but it’s possible to maintain or even improve those sibling relationships in the future.