The Vine: August 22, 2012
Husband and I have a vacation home that we are able to visit every couple of weeks. We have a 73-year-old neighbor who waters our lawn and generally looks out for our house.
His wife of 31 years recently left him…took their only vehicle, and according to him closed out their bank accounts leaving him with nothing but his VA income of several hundred dollars a month. No fight, no warning, just a note, but apparently she had been planning it for a while. He is underwater in this mortgage, and it looks like he will lose his home. While we feel very bad for him, of course there is always the other side of the story, which we do not know.
Recently he’s been making me feel a bit uncomfortable, and here’s where I need some guidance. Last time we (husband and I) were speaking to him, he mentioned he had spoken to her and asked her what she thought was going to happen to her, and said he told her something along the lines of “you’re fat, look at that huge gut and those floppy…” At which point I walked away. Next thing…he phoned our home on Sunday — I had told him to call whenever he needed to talk — and left a message saying everything was good and he’d see us soon. I didn’t call him back. Monday he called, and when I answered he told me that Sunday had been a bad day, and that he had considered ending his life, but instead called the suicide prevention hotline and spoke to a counselor who was also going to come see him again on Tuesday. He also started again with the verbal abuse of his wife, which I deflected as best I could…I mean, I’m not going to listen to this no matter the situation, but I also don’t want to hang up on him.
I am just getting the feeling that he is trying to manipulate me in some way…he seems to have attached himself to me, and while I’m fine with letting him vent and cry, I’m not going to be paying his mortgage, storing his furniture if he does get evicted from his home, or anything else that one of his children should be doing. Did I mention his children refuse to help him (again, according to him).
I’m torn…on one hand, how awful to have this happen at this point in your life. On the other, I don’t know anything about their lives together, she must have had some reason for leaving, and I’m not sure what I can do for him other than listen…but I’m not cool with listening to him talking shit about her body, no matter what she did. One on hand, considering suicide? And on the other…I…I guess I just don’t believe him. I cannot articulate why. I don’t know what I’m asking exactly, just maybe some outside perspective. My husband is the kindest man I’ve ever met, and he wants to do anything he can to help, but I do not want to get taken for a ride by this man…financially OR emotionally. I’ve been in a situation before where I was manipulated, and this feels the same. You can tell me if I’m being a jerk, and I will listen, promise.
I’m happy to answer any questions in the comments if this letter makes it that far…I know this is long and can’t really edit. Thanks for any advice you could offer…
The Neighbor
Dear Neigh,
If I understand you correctly, this is a two-part question: 1) What is your obligation to your neighbor? 2) If you chafe at said obligation, is that wrong/does that mean you’re a bad person?
I’ll take the second part first, because it’s not wrong not to want to embroil yourself in Neighbor’s marital drama, or take responsibility for his safety — which, by announcing to you that he considered killing himself, he has kind of forced you to do. You really scarcely know the man; what you’ve learned recently, you don’t particularly like; and you resent having to play emotional caretaker, particularly when you sense that his psychic pain is more for show than genuine.
With that said, I do think that your past experiences getting manipulated have led to some inconsistency in your behavior. This isn’t a judgment; it’s a weird, delicate situation and he probably caught you off-guard. But I would point out that, on the one hand, you told him to “call whenever he needed to talk,” but then you’ve also braced yourself for him to take advantage of you, and it kind of feels like you’re looking for reasons to consider the circumstances a pain in the ass and not feel guilty about it. Has the neighbor actually asked you to, or hinted that you should, help with his mortgage or find room for his furniture? Or is it just something you fear he will ask for or hint about if you continue to show him conversational compassion? Have you told him in so many words that the body-shaming makes you uncomfortable and you can’t listen to it? Or do you just sit and steam? (And as far as that goes…it’s a break-up. People say shit. I wouldn’t take that part of it so seriously.)
So, consider whether certain incidents in your past may affect how you see this set of circumstances. Then, deal with this set on its own merits. Your neighbor has expressed an intent to harm himself; you may not believe him and it may have passed, but you need to take it seriously, and you need to tell him you take it seriously. Either get in touch with one of his kids and hand Neighbor off to their care, or find the social-service agency that deals with elder care and report the problem to them, but if even a tiny part of you thinks that he might try to do away with himself, you will feel much better about overreacting or falling for a drama-king line than you will if you went “pffft” and then he took his own life.
In other words, yes, I think you should make sure he gets some help, but I also think you can do that and still ensure that’s it’s not entirely you and your husband he gets it from. You can operate from a sympathetic position of “it’s hard to be him every day, these days,” but still not think that obligates you to store his dinette set. Other people’s problems are a tight-pants pain the ass sometimes and it’s okay to admit that to yourself. Dealing with those problems and being a kind face doesn’t make you a pushover. You’ll figure out where the line is, don’t worry.
Tags: etiquette
So maybe he’s not destitute. Maybe wailing about ‘she took everything’ is metaphorical, not literal. If it were me, and I started listening with more detached or skeptical ears, I might find it easier to deal with him.
I’d also be hesitant to offer assistance in vague ways like you’ve described (‘anything to help’ ‘call to talk whenever’).
You can begin making offers of help more specific and concrete (Can I cook a meal to bring over? Can I give you the number of a lawyer? Can I give you a lift to the bank?) in whatever ways that are within your boundaries. That way you and hubby can feel like you’re doing something helpful without the precarious feeling that his neediness might overflow the tub. (I have somebody like this in my life. It’s hard, because it is precarious to worry if every casual phone call will make him think I can put him up for a month or eight.)
As to the suicide threats, yeah, don’t be skeptical about those. If he’s fronting, he’ll stop once he sees you are serious about calling ambulances. If he’s not, the ambulances will take over his care.
Yep, take the suicide threats seriously, in that you let him know that and follow through. Tell him you will call an ambulance/the police if he threatens to hurt himself, because you don’t want that. If he insists you don’t have to or that he just needs to talk, reiterate it. “It really scares me when you say such drastic things, and I wouldn’t be a responsible person if I didn’t contact people who are equipped to help you.”
I like Attica’s suggestion of offering concrete things–a meal, a ride–because it a)helps you put a frame around what you can do, eliminating the “free-floating” sense of desperation and feeling at the guy’s beck and call and b) it will help him focus, on doing the next errand, chore, meal. He’s free-falling through his old reality right now. Solid ground, no matter how temporary, is a blessing.
You also mentioned that he mows your lawn and looks after the house–are you paying him for these services? If not, perhaps arranging a monthly salary will help him with at least the daily expenses.
You can’t fix his marriage or relationship with his kids. You don’t have to listen to talk that makes you really uncomfortable. But the practical assistance you can give may bring more comfort and grounding then you’ll ever know.
You had a superficial relationship with him that was probably pleasant because nothing was wrong. But now he’s plunged into this mess (traumatic but transient) and he wants to take you with him. I don’t think it was wrong to show him kindness, but it’s also not wrong to admit you are in over your head when it comes to being of significant help. Maybe your gift is just to be a normal neighbor so he can feel like at least that part of his life is still okay. Maybe have him over for burgers one night. If he is eating alone all the time now, it might be nice to break bread with somebody.
Regarding his mean-spirited talk, maybe you can just let that go as ramblings from an old man who has lost a lot. It doesn’t matter that you don’t know what his old life was like; the old life doesn’t matter now. It’s too bad that his place didn’t turn out to be an investment, but there’s a lot of that going around these days.
I think you can be there for him a little bit without becoming his defacto children and stepping into the void to make it all better. But maybe this points to you having some issues of your own to deal with. Have you ever read “Codependent No More”? It’s about how NOT to be manipulated by others. It’s a fast read, and I learned a lot so I highly recommend it.
I understand why you feel a little hinky about this – I think I would too, given the fact that his children have essentially cut him off. It sort of feels like something happened here that you aren’t privy to. Assuming they had a good relationship in the past, you’d think they’d be at least equally supportive of him in this situation.
That said, like Sars, I don’t think he’s intentionally manipulating you. I think he’s just in a really bad place right now and is attaching to whatever lifelines he finds. But he might not attach in an appropriate way, so I’d enforce your boundaries in the way you offer to help, as attica suggests. And if he truly makes you feel uncomfortable, then hand the phone off to your husband when he calls or when he starts in on something you don’t want to hear.
This guy needs a lawyer STAT. What the wife did is not allowed in a divorce – things like cars, houses, and bank accounts are marital property. Once you have the stuff/money, it is easier to keep it, but that does not mean he is not entitled to something. If she is a co-signor on the mortgage, she is still legally liable and obligated to help pay for it. If she’s on there and it goes into default, she will be liable, as well. Not even a divorce decree/judgment can extinguish the bank’s right to come after you for a mortgage payment if you signed the paperwork.
The VA has legal resources for vets.
One thing that caught my eye – the wife leaving and the kids’ apparent refusal to help – you say that there is another side. It would not surprise me in the least if he was not a great husband/father based on his complaints and actions towards you. Abusers can be extremely good at manipulating facts/circumstances. And, speaking as a former family law lawyer who represented a few women in their late 60’s, woman tend not to leave long-term marriages when they are elderly with a great deal of pre-planning, if the guy was a great husband and father.
Ahh, I’m happy to see this here and get some outside perspective. I’m the letter writer, and we’ve been able to spend a good amount of time at the vacation house over the summer. Things have gotten better since I wrote in, and I do think we’ve found the line. We encouraged him to get some help, which he did in the form of a local counseling center. The counselor came by several times a week until the neighbor asked him to stop. My husband and I have each heard different stories about that decision, and about a hundred different little things, so we generally just conclude that he’s basically full of shit and “pfft”. We are helping him out by mowing his lawn when we are there so he no longer has that expense, and bringing him dinner when we can. He still occasionally gets emotional, but I think he’s realized that we can only offer so much. I’m still not sure what his situation is (all the different stories)and whether or not he is going to lose his house – I know he’s not paying his mortgage/rent/whatever it may be – but I also can’t help him with any of the “hardship” paperwork he has asked us to look over, as it requires a shitton of information from his wife, who is still listed on the deed for the home. So, we’ve taken a kind of “be as nice as we can but keep our distance” kind of approach, which seems to work for now. Thanks for the comments & suggestions! It’s still something I think about every day, but since some time has passed I think he’s not quite so fragile and that makes the whole thing easier to deal with.
@The LW: I’m glad things have gotten better. One thing that did pop into my head, both reading your original letter and your follow-up comment, is that he might be beginning to develop dementia. I’ve seen a few marriages break up because one partner started being aggressive and borderline-abusive and neither partner understood that it was the early stages of dementia. If you’re not already familiar with some of the symptoms, it might be worth looking into it so you’re better equipped to deal with future erratic behavior.
LW, a few things about your letter popped out at me. Specifically when you say, “I am just getting the feeling that he is trying to manipulate me in some way…” and “And on the other…I…I guess I just don’t believe him. I cannot articulate why” and similar comments, followed by, “You can tell me if I’m being a jerk, and I will listen, promise.”
To me, this sounds like you’ve got some level of spidey-sense/intuition about this guy, and you’re wondering if you should ignore it. And to this I say: do not ignore it. Never ignore your intuition. It’s there for a reason, and it’s job is to keep you safe (emotionally and physically). It’s not infallible, but if it’s wrong, the answer is still not to ignore it, because the only way it gets more accurate is if you listen to it and figure out what’s pinging you, and decide rationally that whatever it is isn’t actually a sign of danger.
We do ourselves a great disservice when we doubt our intuition. It doesn’t seem likely that you’re being seriously physically threatened in this situation, but 1) emotional assault is still assault, and 2) exercising our intuition, and our response to it, is a good exercise no matter what the particulars of the situation might be.
LW, as Nicole said above, it sounds like your neighbor could definitely use a lawyer’s help. The VA is a good option if he’s a veteran. If he’s on a fixed income or he’s actually experiencing financial hardship, he might also be able to qualify for assistance from a local legal aid agency or from a student clinic if there are any law schools in your area. This list can give him some starting points in your state, but it’s not exhaustive. State or county bar associations and local law schools might also have some programs or suggestions – depending on how hard-hit your area is, there might be a special program in place to assist with home loan modification – but eventually he’s going to need some family law help, possibly even just to get that paperwork filled out, if the wife is really refusing to have contact. Good for you for doing what you can to help.
So… you’re not a jerk and you should distance yourself from him.
1) He’s giving you a bad gut feeling. That is not to be taken lightly… it’s your subconscious trying to tell you something.
2) He wants attention, probably more than anything else.
3) Listening to him is really not going to do much, and it sounds like he’s annoying you. He should rely on his friends and family to listen in times like these.
4) Professional help is appropriate in this case, and helping him find it is the kindest thing you can do. He should be in touch with a lawyer because he’s getting a divorce and the wife has no right to take all his money and let the house get taken by the bank. It’s her obligation just as much as it’s his obligation. He should be in touch with a therapist, because if he is serious about suicide you are the wrong person to be on the other end of the phone… if for no other reason because you don’t believe him.
It occurs to me that if your county has an Office of the Aging, or some other like department, that would be a good source of assistance for him. My mom used to get help doing her taxes from them every year.
Or if there’s no government agency, maybe AARP?
i have had this same problem with a neighbor. my husband was just like yours, way to nice. I finally told him I was not going to put up with it and he confronted her and told her he did not want her out there when it was just the two of them. infact he didnt want her talking to him at all. she waited until I went to work or was in the house befor she talked to him. He knew he didnt want anything to do with her so he thought it was no big deal but it was starting to annoy me. she stopped talking to him but she continued to dress provocativ and flirt. She was pathetic and I could not feel sorry for her she knew what she was doing hoping for an opening. what do you do if they dont stop. I dont know. Im at a loss. good luck with her.