The Vine: February 14, 2006
O Great Sars,
Is it “had got” or “had gotten”? As in, is it correct to say “when he had finally got a room with a window” or “when he had finally gotten a room with a window”? I was sure that it was the latter, but looking at them, both seem wrong now…. Help!
Sign me,
Until I GET my copy of Garner in the mail, Sars is my God
Dear Thou Shalt Worship No False Idol Before Garner,
I suspect that “had gotten” is more correct — or at least more correct in American English; “had got” feels less formal (and, ironically, more British also). I don’t think either one is wrong. Let’s see what Garner has to say…
“The past participle gotten predominates in AmE, got in BrE.” Well, there you go. He doesn’t say anything about the BrE form being wrong, so I think you can still use it, but the AmE “had gotten” is probably preferred.
Hi Sars,
I disagree with the copy editor at our university newspaper on a few things
(I’m a volunteer copy editor), and I wanted to get your opinion to see who’s
right.
The first two questions refer to political parties in Canada: the Conservative
Party, the Green Party, and the Liberal Party.
I tried looking in the Canadian Press Stylebook, but was unsuccessful in
finding answers.
1. Which is correct? This question refers the the party’s web page.
a) “The Conservative’s web page says…”
b) “The Conservatives’ web page says…”
I think it’s b), but she overruled me. She argues that because the party is
singular, and this refers to the party, the apostrophe goes before the s. I
think she’s thinking of it as “The Conservative Party’s web page,” in which
case the apostrophe is before the “s.” She said, “It’s not the Conservatives
Party; it’s the Conservative Party.” I disagree. I suggested changing it to
“The Conservative web page,” but she said no.
In the same article, there was the phrase “It’s not the Green’s platform”
(again referring to the party, not an individual). Should it be “Greens'”? I
think so. I know you would refer to the party as “it,” not “they,” because
it’s a collective noun, but it seems strange to make it a possessive this way.
2. Which is correct?
a)”Both the Liberal and Conservative ‘issues’ section of their web page
list…” (this is the way the sentence appeared in the story)
b)”Both the Liberal and Conservative ‘issues’ section of their web pages
list…”
c)”Both the Liberal and Conservative ‘issues’ sections of their web pages
list…”
She thinks it should be b); I think it should be c). She argues that each page
only has one issues section, so “section” should be singular. Again, I
disagree, because there are two different pages, each with their own sections.
3. Which is correct?
a)”I’ve read a myriad of articles over the years…”
b)”I’ve read myriad articles over the years…”
She thinks it’s a); I could swear we went over this in a class, and the prof
was clear that most people use it incorrectly and it’s actually b).
I know this is petty, but I worked really well with the previous copy editor
and I don’t want the new one to think I don’t know what I’m doing. Three other
people in the newsroom (including the managing editor and the editor) praised
my copy-editing skills when I went in today, but I think she thinks I don’t
know what I’m doing. I also think she’s wrong on these three things.
Thanks,
The Other Copy Editor Trusted Me
Dear Because The Other Copy Editor Deserved The Job,
1. b). It’s “the Conservatives'” or “the Conservative Party’s.” Same with the sentence about the Greens; in both cases, you’re denoting a collective noun, yes — but by using the plural, and you must punctuate it as such.
2. I would just redraft the entire sentence — “On the ‘issues’ sections of their respective web pages, both the Liberals and the Conservatives
list…” — just to untangle the syntax a little. Failing that, c).
3. b). Interestingly, “a myriad” is not incorrect, according to Garner; it’s fine to use it as a noun, and while the adjectival form is “more concise,” the noun form is 200 years older.
So, I’d say you’re right on two and a half out of three, but the salient point is that your editor doesn’t seem to know what she’s doing; these errors indicate to me that she has no ear for the language, and is more concerned with being right than with hearing what sentences are telling her.
How you want to handle that, I don’t know, but I would get a Garner for the office. You can use him for CanE; just ignore everything he might say about how to spell “color” and take it from there. But if you’re not making any headway on your own, it might help if you could point her to a reference.
Canadian readers: Is there a Garner equivalent I can suggest to petitioners in the future? Suggestions welcome.
Dear Sars,
My boss usually defers to my grammar expertise, but
he’s “correcting” me on an email message I just sent.
I wrote, “Does either of you have any concerns with
this?” He maintains that it should be “Do either of
you.” I very strongly disagree, and now, card that he
is, he’s sending me links to Web sites in which people
are arguing the point. I have yet to buy Garner (but
I’m this close!). Any insight?
Peon with a Pointy-Haired Boss
Dear Peon,
People: BUY THE GARNER. He does not pay me to tell you this; I don’t get any consideration from the publisher. This is strictly a public service. I can answer grammar letters eight days a week, it’s not like I’d mind, but half the time, said answers come straight from the Bryan’s mouth. It is worth every penny, so if you’ve been putting it off all “augh, $27”? Invest. You will thank me.
In fact, because it’s Valentine’s Day and I’d like to put some good back into the world, everyone with a letter in today’s Vine who doesn’t have a Garner is getting one, on me.
You are welcome. Now, to your question, which as it happens I don’t need Garner to answer: your boss is wrong. “Either” is short for “either one.” “One” is, obviously, a singular. A singular calls for “does,” not “do.”
Would I make a big deal of this, when it’s an email? No — but your boss started it, and you can back him off with your brand-new copy of the Garner. “Either” entry, section D.
Hola Sars,
I have a quick and dirty question for you. What’s the rule regarding
punctuation in song lyrics? I am looking to put the first two verses
of “When I’m Sixty-Four” by The Beatles on a wall all fancy-like, and
after sifting through the various lyric sites and wading through
different interpretations of comma usage and capitalization, I’m
looking for someone who can definitively say how it’s done. Here is my
best take on it:
When I get older, losing my hair,
many years from now,
will you still be sending me a valentine,
birthday greetings, bottle of wine?
If I’d been out till quarter to three,
would you lock the door?
Will you still need me, will you still feed me
When I’m sixty-four?
I’m trying to balance it between looking good in print in large
format, grammatical correctness, accuracy to the song, and scanning
properly when read. I’m not even entirely sure that this is supposed
to be two different verses, much less where the line breaks really go.
Thanks,
D
Dear D,
I don’t know if there’s a formal set of rules, really, although I suspect that you’re supposed to capitalize the first word of each line (and that the chorus starts with “Will you still need me” and should be set off from the rest of the lyrics accordingly).
Garner doesn’t have a note on this, but I imagine that as long as you’re consistent, however you choose to punctuate/capitalize is fine. It’s on a wall, after all, so you can probably get away with a less-than-rigorous interpretation.
Oh grammar goddess Sars,
My friend and I — both ESL teachers overseas — have a grammar question that we hope you (and Garner) can answer for us. Is there a rule about the use of “myself” versus “by myself”? (“I made the cake myself” or “I made the cake by myself.”)
Thanks for the help!
I would buy Garner myself, but shipping doubles the price…
Dear That’s No Excuse,
It seems, to me, that adding “by” fine-tunes the meaning somewhat. In the first version, you made the cake yourself, implying nobody else made it or helped you. In the second version, you made the cake by yourself, still implying that nobody else made it but also hinting that you were alone when you made it. They’re interchangeable, more or less; “by myself” just connotes the fact that you made the cake alone, without help, more strongly. Garner probably has a more comprehensible take on the difference, or whether there even is one, so let’s see what he has to say…
…Nothing. Neither is incorrect, and I can’t find a rule distinguishing between them, either in Garner or on Dr. Grammar.org. When in doubt, though, the more concise version is usually best, so go with just “myself.”
Tags: grammar
