The Vine: February 18, 2004
Hey Sars —
I have this issue that’s been rearing its ugly head for about three
years now. I have a pretty tightly intertwined group of friends who’ve all
been hanging out together since college — ’bout six years now. Most social
events include the whole crew. One of the folks who is always around is this
guy — LM — with whom I had a three-year relationship. It ended miserably. Lots
of tears, lots of bad, lots of hospital bills and medication. I asked him
for help with dealing with the bad and he denied any responsibility.
So I suck it up, deal, heal and move on with my life. I am still very close
to some of the people in that group. I chose to not make any big public
declaration about the meltdown between LM and I — I certainly didn’t ask
anyone to choose sides. It took me a while (and lots of avoiding group
events) before I got okay with the idea of seeing him around. I decided
politely acknowledging, then subsequently ignoring him would be the best way
to go. Not bitchy, not snotty, just not there. This worked for about a year
and a half.
Recently, LM has been coming up to me and attempting to engage in
discussion. He’s reminiscing about our good days, all the cool things we did
together. He’s suddenly become positively effusive with praise for me and
the things I do. This is a creepy 180-degree turn from even the LM that was my
buddy a long time ago.
I want to try to let him know — with as little drama, fireworks, or
interaction as possible — that it is not okay for him to talk to me. I don’t
consider him a decent human being after some of the things he’s done. I have
to restrain a couple of my male friends from beating him to a bloody pulp
when he comes over and starts trying to tickle me or give me a hug. This guy
has no sense of propriety or responsibility for his actions, and I wasn’t
hoping to have to draw the line, but he’s not going to do it on his own. Any
suggestions on how I may, without completely losing touch with all these
good people, do something to LM to let him know he needs to leave me alone?
Thanks much —
Freakin’ Well Fed Up
Dear Fed,
Next time LM starts down memory lane, interrupt him. Tell him that it’s nice that he’s got such wonderful memories and such complimentary things to say about you — but you aren’t there, you aren’t going to get there, and anything beyond basic civility is out of bounds for you. Add that you hope he understands, but even if he doesn’t, you want him to back off.
I don’t see why you would have to worry about “losing touch with” the rest of the group; I assume they know at least the bare bones about what happened between you, and if he’s pushing it and you’re not interested…well, most adults get that these things happen sometimes in a group of friends and that not everybody is going to get along.
LM is assuming a relationship you don’t want. Correct him.
Hiya Sars…
As a popular emotional turmoil sounding board for my
own friends, I often find myself quoting you back to them (don’t worry, I
cite my sources). But I’m facing a tough one that I couldn’t find an answer
to, even after I Googled your Vine archives.
So let’s meet the dramatis personae: There’s me. I’m 26, hetero male,
unattached, and a pretty nice guy if I don’t say so myself. “M,” a lovely
young woman with whom I work. She is the only person my age (26) in the
office, and so we’ve become fast friends over the last year. “S” is her
boyfriend. He’s a cool guy, someone that I get along with socially and all
that good stuff. Bottom line — good people. Love ’em both.
They began dating around their sophomore year in college, about five years ago.
For most of those years, the relationship has been good for both of them.
However, there were definitely some low points, primarily due to both of
them having lapses with fidelity. They’ve worked through most of that, and
are both seriously contemplating marriage. Unfortunately, S has lingering
issues with M having male friends. She grew up with four brothers and has
always had a nice assortment of platonic relationships with guys. The fact
that she’s attractive has complicated a few of those friendships when the
guys started thinking with their pants. The one time she cheated on S was
with an ex of hers that showed up after being out of the picture for a
while. He had not been hanging around in friend mode at all, but since then
S has equated all M’s male friends as potential troublemakers.
The one night of M’s infidelity was now over two years ago. But S is still
obsessing about the guys that she knows. For example, he knows me, and he
knows that I wouldn’t think of making a play for M, yet he worries about it
a lot and says so to M. I agree with what you advised “Wondering” on
9/5/03 — that there’s nothing wrong with guys having a lot of female
friends. Many times it just means that we can see woman as more than a
sexual object. I’ve never moved in on a woman in a relationship, and would
avoid it at all costs, ’cause it’s just wrong on a lot of levels in my book.
I respect my female friends and their relationships. I also think that the
opposite applies; women can have male friends without issue. I’d even say
that many women may find it easier to do than men.
That said, S obviously
still disagrees. He still worries about me and M becoming more than
friends. And I’m not even the one S has most of his issues with. M has one
long-time friend who has always had a thing for her. She’s made herself
very clear that she is not and will not be interested. She’s comfortable
with how that friend has dealt with it, but S isn’t, despite that she only
has contact with this friend once or twice a month by email since he lives
hours away. Regardless, S and M fight over her friendship with this guy on
a fairly regular basis.
Now M is asking me for advice. I read this all as S’s insecurity about any
extra men in her life besides him. I feel as though I should tell her as
much, and advise her to get S to suck it up and deal with the fact that her
cheating was years ago and they’ve grown a lot since then. And moreover,
she’s an adult and will be friends with whomever she wants. And if he can’t
deal with that, then she needs to move on.
So let’s get to my
questions…is that sound advice for her? Even if it is, should I be the
person giving it to her? I wonder if M confronting S with this and dropping
my name will complicate the discussion and turn it into another fight? Even
if she doesn’t drop my name, do I really want to get in the middle with
these two?
As I said, I care a lot about both these people. I respect them as friends
and really do think that they’re a couple that could and should make it
work. I’d love to hear any advice you might have for all of us…
Thanks so much,
Part-time Dr. Phil (without the male-pattern baldness, gut, and oversized
ego)
Dear Phil,
It’s sound advice, yes, although I would phrase it differently — namely, in terms of S deciding whether he can move past the cheating. If he can’t, okay — some people can’t, and that’s fine. But if he can, he needs to do it, now, and stop punishing M. Sure, some of it she brought on herself, but S chose to stay in the relationship, and at the two-years-ago mark, it’s time for him to stop letting M’s infidelity define that relationship for both of them.
As far as saying so to M — well, I would trust her to leave my name out of it, and perhaps you should tell her explicitly that you’d rather she not get all “Phil says blah blee blah” to S. In any event, you shouldn’t say anything about S in this situation that you wouldn’t tell him to his face. You consider S a friend; he might not want to hear it, but the fact is that the advice benefits him, too, not just M. He’s not doing himself any favors emotionally by obsessing over M’s friendships with men.
So, tell M what you think, but let her know you don’t want to find yourself in the middle — and prepare yourself to stand behind what you’ve said.
Hey Sars,
I finally decided to write to you for some advice about my mom. My mom and
I had a fine relationship while I was growing up, or so I thought. We had
nothing in common, her best friend didn’t like kids, and she worked all
kinds of crazy, unpaid (this comes into play later) hours at a non-profit,
usually upwards of 50 hours a week. So, unlike most daddy’s girls, my dad
did everything with me. He taught school, so he got me up in the morning,
got me dressed, fed me, played games with me, et cetera. I knew my mom loved me and
basically that was good enough for me.
Also important, my mom had a kid
from her first marriage who left to go and live with her father after no
real contact for years. She was eight years older than me, moved out when I
was seven, and I haven’t had any contact since. I am fine with that as well,
we all have our own lives to live, some people want to live somewhere else.
So I went off to college, about four hours away, and everything was fine until
I studied abroad for my junior year. That was in 1997, and ever since, there
has to be major drama EVERY year. I often call home to find my mother has
been “so sick and crying herself to sleep for weeks” because I don’t love
her. I never know what will set these off. My dad usually tells me she is
upset. She tells everyone around her that I hate her and am embarrassed to
be seen with her in public. She brings up the fact that when I was 12 I
walked away from her at the mall. I don’t even think we went to the mall
together, shopping with her is a nightmare and I hated it from about age three.
And anyway, if I did, I was 12, everyone does that.
She complains we never do anything together anymore. When I am home, which
is a few times a year, she immediately starts in with take me to the movies,
let’s go shopping. But we never did anything together to begin with. I can
not recall ever going to the movies with her after the age of 12, we don’t
have the same tastes and she talks non-stop. We will go out to lunch and go
to the mall, but whatever we do together is never enough, and while she
has money to buy things, I don’t, so shopping sucks.
I honestly think she is confusing me with my half-sister, who she did have a
closer relationship too. She says things like “the time you got suspended”
or “the time you skipped school.” Yeah, never did those, not even a
detention, ever. Must have been that other kid, but I can’t say that
either, because of the tears and crying.
Now, because she never had a
paying job, she is concerned about her future and constantly is asking if I
am putting away enough money to support her in her old age. I’m in national
service, I make $10,000 a year right now and even if I was making more money I
really see it as her problem. She knew she would get old, she should have
been saving, and my dad assures me there is enough money anyway.
I guess my problem is that she has built this false relationship up in her
mind. I had no problem with the old one, but this new one, with the
constant tears and everyone thinking I’m this major asshole because I treat
her so bad, is grating. I never did drugs, or got in trouble. I think I
was a pretty good kid. There is no one else in the family, my grandparents
are dead and I only have one aunt, my dad’s sis. My mom had no real
relationship with her parents, she thought my dad’s family hated her, and
pretty much kept me away from them too. I can’t talk to my dad because he
will tell her and there will be more crying.
On top of all this I forgot my
dad’s birthday as I was traveling overseas at the time, but HE reminded me
of it, finally. I know he mentioned it to her, so you think she could have
reminded me so that I didn’t look like a total ass, as opposed to her saying “I
wondered if you would remember.”
How would you deal with this? Is it possible, or do I just go about my life
and when the crying starts ignore it and hope I don’t need help from anyone
she’s badmouthed me to? In short, both my parents spent my life teaching
my life was my own, that as along as I was law abiding that I could do what I
wanted, but they were there if I needed them. I never asked questions about
their past marriages and they never asked me about my relationships. Now my
mom wants me to be this clingy little kid who runs to her with all my
problems, as opposed to a 27-year-old who really hasn’t needed that much
support. They raised me well, I can live on my own (for instance when I had
surgery in college I asked them not come, I was in the hospital for four days,
but my dad had to work and I was fine without the hovering). All my friends
remember my old cool mom from high school, so they just don’t get it. It
has also been going on way too long for menopause and started before her
parents died so I am out of ideas.
Please help!
No one’s little girl anymore
Dear Anymore,
All the wailing and rending of garments on your mom’s side comes, I think, from guilt. She’s all torn up about not spending more time with you during your childhood, but she doesn’t know how to address that in a healthy way, so she turns it around so that you’re Bad Daughter and then behaves in a way designed to reinforce her belief that you must hate her.
It’s annoying and melodramatic and unconstructive, and it’s not up to you to help her figure out how to deal with herself, but you do need to break the pattern somehow — and before you do something like cutting ties, you might consider bending a little bit on the spending-time-with-her thing. Go to a movie. Go shopping. Find another activity the two of you can do together. Try it, see how it goes. Your mom is way over the top here, don’t get me wrong, but she’s obviously looking for reassurance, and I don’t think you get that — that the point of going shopping with her isn’t really to buy shoes, but to hang out with her voluntarily. You seem unwilling to do that, and given her behavior, I don’t really blame you, but giving up an afternoon here and there might get her off your back.
On the other hand, it might also give her to understand that emotional blackmail works. I can’t really say. I do think that your mother is…not a well woman, so I don’t know how much good any one gesture will do, but try it. And try talking to your father, asking his advice — diplomatically, since you know it’ll get reported back to her, but ask anyway. He has to deal with her every day; surely he has a few insights. Tell him you don’t like the way your relationship with Mom has evolved, and you’d like any suggestions he has on improving it, because the current situation is hurting both you and your mother.
And if none of that works and she won’t get therapy, which I think she needs, start marking off boundaries and enforcing them. Tell her you love her, but you won’t put up with the crying and the martyrdom routine; you want to spend time with her, but not if you get ranked on for things you didn’t do as a kid and not if you hear that she’s talking shit about you. Back it up. If she starts in on how she’s up nights, sick about how you hate her, tell her that’s not how it is and you’ve talked about this, and get off the phone — that kind of thing.
Again, I don’t know how much good any of this will do if your mother doesn’t get professional help, but you can’t make her do that, so try these other strategies, and if she’s still making it into a Victorian novel at every turn, start distancing yourself.
Dear Sars,
I have a quick and dirty one for you.
Is the correct plural of “campus” “campuses,” “campusi,” “campi,” or something else? I’m worried that I was wrong in using “campuses” for my college applications (it doesn’t set off my spell check, but neither does “irregardless”) and I hate it when I make a stupid error.
So, did I send in a non-word, or are “campusi” and “campi” examples of incorrect pluralization akin to “childs” and “meese”?
You’re the best,
Worried Senior
Dear Three Months To Go,
Off the top of my head? “Campi” is the correct Latin plural, but pretentious, and “campuses” is recommended for English usage. (I’ve never heard “campusi” and can say without fear that it’s wrong.) Let’s go to the videotape.
The 11C doesn’t have a pluralization note on “campus,” which leads me to believe that the standard English plural is in play (“campuses”). Garner, in his note on plurals: “One reliable guide is this: if in doubt, use the native-English plural ending in -s.” He goes on to observe that pluralizing Latin nouns is a hypercorrection that often winds up in-correct (viz. “octopus,” which many people pluralize as “octopi” when the actual Latin plural is “octopodes”).
Long story short: “campuses.”
And while I’ve got you all here — if you do insist on hypercorrecting Latinate nouns, please pronounce them correctly. To cite the most frequently heard example, “alumni” is pronounced “alum-nee,” NOT “alum-neye.” “Alumnae” is pronounced “alum-neye,” not “alum-nay.” Masculine Latin plurals, “ee”; feminine Latin plurals, “eye.” So-called Church Latin is not correct in that regard.
Also: the plural of “penis” is “penes,” NOT “peni.” “Peni” would indicate a plural of neuter noun “penus,” which means supplies or provisions. Get cute with the Latin plurals all you want, but know what you’re doing.
Sars,
It’s not grammar, and it’s not a “I’m in love with my brother’s girlfriend’s mother’s brother’s best friend and don’t know what to do” question, but hey, I am sure you have a good opinion on this one.
How do you address a card to a gay couple who have not formally committed to one another, but have been living together for a few years and have been a couple for almost ten years? The return address label I got from them had “Smith Jones” in the name line. Just like that…no hyphen, no first names. Prior to seeing the return address label, I always addressed their cards to “Mike Smith & Ike Jones” and that was that.
So do I still address it “Mike Smith & Ike Jones”? Or perhaps it should be “Mike & Ike Smith Jones” or “The Smith Jones Family”? Or do you have another suggestion? I am not concerned about offending them; they wouldn’t care less if I addressed the card to “The Dorks that live at,” but it just got me thinking. What’s your opinion?
Thanks!
The Dorky Friend of Mike & Ike
Dear Friend,
I imagine the “Smith Jones” thing is more for the convenience of the postal service than anything else — so that, if a piece of mail gets returned, the post office knows that both Smith and Jones live at that address. Their checks probably have the same deal going on.
So, “Mike Smith & Ike Jones” is fine, especially if they haven’t said anything to you about it either way.
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette friendships grammar the fam
