The Vine: February 23, 2011
I’m writing to you today about a very delicate situation. I’m totally lost as to what, if anything, I can do. I really need your help.
Here’s a little background: I have a sister who I am very, very close to. We’d been together our entire lives until she moved across the country to Big City for grad school back in 2009. I am currently living with my boyfriend, who I have been dating for two years.
Every summer and Christmas, Sister will fly down to visit me for a couple weeks at a time, when she has off school. We love seeing each other and these visits are the highlight of our whole year. She stays with Boyfriend and me at our tiny 2-room (plus bathroom) apartment. We usually get along well, although Sister and Boyfriend have gotten on each other’s nerves several times, just from all of us being cooped up together in such a small space.
Well, last summer, something horrible happened. Sister, Boyfriend, and I went out drinking with some friends. We all walked home, very, very drunk, and went to bed: Boyfriend and I in our bedroom, and Sister in the living room. I woke up the next day very hungover, and Sister was being unusually quiet. She told me later that, during the night, she woke up to Boyfriend touching her, and trying to undress her.
I immediately flew off the handle at Boyfriend and kicked him out. He was totally shocked, and told me he didn’t remember a single thing from the night before — it was all a blackout. He stayed at his parents’ for the rest of Sister’s visit, and after a couple weeks I took him back in, and forgave him.
Well, Christmas then rolled around, and Sister came back for her visit once again. She had managed to forgive Boyfriend and things were, hopefully, back to normal. New Year’s Eve arrives, we all go out drinking again, and I go to bed around 1 AM. Boyfriend, who is mostly sober, stays up to take care of Sister, who is very drunk and passing out.
Sister wakes me up at 4 AM. She tells me that Boyfriend was touching her again, and trying to undress her. I confront him and kick him out again, and he, fully sober at this point, is shocked, and tells me that nothing happened. I tell him to leave, and he goes.
Sister went back to Big City two days later, as previously scheduled, and I was left to figure out what the heck I was going to do.
Boyfriend maintains to this day that nothing happened on New Year’s Eve. He does not deny what happened over the summer, because he was blackout drunk and remembered nothing, but for New Year’s Eve, his story is this: she was very drunk and falling asleep on the couch. She stretched out with her legs over his lap, unbuttoned her jeans for comfort, and fell asleep for several hours. She woke up around 4 AM, went to the door, and told him, “Don’t you ever touch me again,” after which she woke me.
I have never been more confused and conflicted in my entire life. Boyfriend and I are still living together because, well, I’m still in love with him and I don’t know what to do. Sister is the most important person in my life. I can’t deny her side of the story, but I also can’t believe that Boyfriend would assault her for a second time, completely sober, after the first time almost destroyed our relationship.
Now I don’t know if Sister will ever want to stay with me again, as long as Boyfriend is here. I’ve dreamed for years of moving up to Big City to be with her, but bringing Boyfriend along feels like an impossibility now. I don’t know what to do. I don’t know if I should leave him, even though I still love him, or what I could say to Sister to heal the situation. I feel that my relationship with Boyfriend has been tainted forever, and Sister will never be able to accept or forgive him, because of these awful things.
Please help. I need some advice, any advice.
Caught in a Tug of War
Dear War,
Okay, it’s possible that I have this all wrong, but my gut reaction? Something is hinky about this whole saga. I don’t know if I can put my finger on it, but I didn’t quite believe that the first touching/undressing incident happened, and by the time I got to the second one, I didn’t buy Sister’s story at all. I don’t want to blame the victim if something actually happened, on one or both occasions, and I understand that people do self-destructive and/or seemingly out-of-character things when they’re ripshit — but it’s just not adding up for me. Hear me out here.
First of all, if Boyfriend is blackout drunk, how likely is it that he went to bed with you, passed out, then got up again to fondle Sister? It’s possible, sure, but does that sound probable to you?
Second of all, since it evidently did sound probable to you, how exactly did you rationalize taking him back? He can’t rationalize it; he doesn’t remember it. What did you tell yourself in order to make it forgivable that he fondled a family member with you in the next room? Because the only rationale I can come up with is that he got confused in his drunken state and thought Sister was you…which is still pretty fuckin’ creepy. And on the one hand, he manned up and took responsibility for his alleged actions, which is good. On the other hand, that means that either 1) he thinks he could have done it, or 2) he realized he had no choice but to cop a plea, because you would never believe his version over Sister’s. Neither of these things is real healthy; I’m just saying.
Third of all, once you have taken him back, why on earth is Sister staying with the two of you again, and going out drinking with you again? Again, everyone deals with sexual assault in different ways, but going back to the tiny apartment where he still lives and tying one on? I don’t mean she’s asking for it, mind you; it’s just not a location I’d want to revisit, personally. Unless…I had an agenda.
I mean, there’s this: “Sister is the most important person in my life. I can’t deny her side of the story, but I also can’t believe that Boyfriend would assault her for a second time, completely sober, after the first time almost destroyed our relationship.” And then there’s this: “I’ve dreamed for years of moving up to Big City to be with her, but bringing Boyfriend along feels like an impossibility now.” The thing is, you can deny her side of the story; you just don’t want to, because the relationship has a power over you that, for whatever reason, consciously or unconsciously, perhaps she is leveraging. Like I’ve said, I don’t know what happened, I don’t know exactly what Sister said, et cetera and so on. But I think she knows that she was the most important person in your life, and may not be anymore…and that you would consider ending the relationship with Boyfriend based on her version of these incidents.
It’s possible that he tried to get on her once, and then the second time, she woke up and got disoriented and assumed he’d done it again. It’s possible that Boyfriend is a sociopath who has set up the situation so that her side of the story seems like bullshit, and he’s gaslighting you both. But I just…doubt it. I don’t know why Sister would make that shit up, or if she did it consciously, or what’s going on. There’s just something about all of it taken together that I don’t buy, not least that you wrote me a letter about it, which indicates that you don’t entirely buy it either.
As for what you should do, well, I think you should go with your gut as to whom you believe, and if it’s Boyfriend, you’ll have to tell Sister something along the lines of “Look, I can see how you might have misinterpreted what happened, but I believe Boyfriend’s account — and next year, for your visit, you should probably stay elsewhere so we can avoid another incident or misunderstanding.” I think you should also spend some time, on your own or with a therapist, looking at your closeness with Sister, and whether it’s not perhaps a bit unhealthy on one or both sides. You both may have some trouble separating from one another, which is normal, but you should look into it.
And I think the three of you need to find social things to do that do not involve getting butt-wasted, because that’s obviously not working out.
If you don’t believe Boyfriend, kick him out already and change the locks. But…I think you agree with me even though you’d reeeeeally rather not (and I don’t blame you).
Tags: boys (and girls) the fam
I’m with Sars on this one, plus I have some questions. Do Sister and Boyfriend have any kind of history at all? Also, REALLY? The first time, sure – that totally could have happened. The second time? With Boyfriend being completely sober? I am not buying that at all, because why on earth would Boyfriend LIE about something like that, having had to deal with the fallout from that exact situation already? Seriously, why would the guy do it and then lie about it? If that’s his thing, well, ick – but then why would War stay with the guy if he makes it a habit to feel up drunk girls?
Something is not adding up here, and I’m thinking Sister is at the bottom of it.
I find it weird that the boyfriend is on the couch with her alone the second time and he is letting her un button her pants and spread out over him on the couch. At that point why doesn’t he leave and let the sister sleep why is he staying there while the sister sleeps in that condition.
But like you said this whole story is hinky. After the first incident why are they letting themselves get into this situation once again.
Somehow I don’t believe either side.
I’m not buying the sister’s story either, like Sars I wasn’t buying it with the first instance and I sure as hell wasn’t buying the second one. I presume that you know Boyfriend well enough to know if he was gaslighting either of you because unless he is he seems like an innocent party in all this. And if he was gaslighting you he’d have to be one very cunning sociopath to pull the wool over your eyes for your entire relationship.
The other thing that smells off to me is that you’ve apparently had several visits over the years, presumably also with a fair amount of drinking, and it’s only the last two visits where these accusations were made. Unless this has been happening all along and she only just now is saying something.
You really do just need to decide who you believe once and for all, your sister or your boyfriend, and act accordingly.
I also think Sister is at nefarious schemes here, and I think honestly it’s coming down to her doing what she can to end your relationship with boyfriend so that you are free to pursue your sisterly dreams with HER in Big City.
I am not blaming the victim. However, it is extraordinarily unlikely that someone who felt they may have been the (unintentional or not) victim of a sexual assault would get themselves into the exact same situation, with the same person, a second time. Honestly, if you truly thought there was any way your boyfriend could have done such a thing to your sister, you never would have left them alone a second time, with her completely inebriated and out of sorts. I don’t see it happening.
I also have to echo the suggestion that maybe in general, you and boyfriend and sister should find more mature recreational activities than complete-blitzed drunk. I don’t see the draw at getting yourself so out of sorts that you:
-cannot recall anything you did the night before (boyfriend)
-are unable to help yourself and extricate yourself from a bad situation (sister)
-leave someone you care about at the potential mercy of someone who may have tried to assault them because you can’t stay awake a moment longer (you)
A lot of bad decisions all around. I think you need to start cutting some ties with Sister. You might also want to consider giving life a try without Boyfriend too, because you’re right – your relationship is going to be tainted from this point on. It’s not fair to keep him in a relationship when you will never be able to wholeheartedly trust him again, especially if he’s innocent.
@Matt: Another option which your comment suggested to me is that Sister and Boyfriend have a thing on the side, and the he-said-she-said routine is designed to throw off suspicion. But that also seems a bit too elaborate to be likely.
I’d buy that sister is lying or confused except for this:
“she was very drunk and falling asleep on the couch. She stretched out with her legs over his lap, unbuttoned her jeans for comfort, and fell asleep for several hours.”
Why on earth would boyfriend sit on the couch for “several hours” while sister slept with her legs on him and her jeans unbuttoned? That’s messed up. His girlfriend is asleep in his bed in the next room and rather than joining her for a cuddly spooning, he opts to either sit awake with sister or sleep sitting up on the couch? No way. Especially considering the history between these two, I think a sober boyfriend would realize that plopping a bucket down in front of sister and then getting away from her and heading back to his bed was the best idea. He didn’t do that. Why not?
I have nothing to add, as I agree with Sars and the comments. I just wanted to thank you for forcing me to Wikipedia the term “gaslighting”. I have learned something today, not least of which is that if I’d been watching “The Young and the Restless” more I’d already have known the meaning of the word. So basically, daytime television for the win.
Yeah, I’m with the majority on this: I don’t buy it. And I used to volunteer as a rape crisis counselor, so I take any and all accusations of sexual assault very seriously. But this just doesn’t add up for me.
Without going into too many details, I have been in a similar situation – in high school, a former friend’s boyfriend put his hands in my swimsuit bottom when we were in a hot tub. When I protested (we had all been drinking), he said I liked it. I told Friend, she sided with Boy, Ex-Friend and I haven’t spoken since and this was a dozen years ago. (She called me when they went to different colleges and he cheated on her a week into school; I wasn’t interested.) It just seems like … if Boyfriend is on the record as getting blackout drunk and inappropriate, why is Sister putting herself in that position again? Why stay on the couch in a tiny apartment instead of HoJo-ing it to avoid any possible inappropriate behavior, or confusion about same?
I just can’t imagine accusing someone of molestation and then being like “Well, OK, he said he was sorry so let’s all kick it, in the same situation that led to the molestation.” Something in the milk ain’t clean. It sounds to me like Sister is trying to drive a wedge between War and Boyfriend. I don’t usually think in soap-operatic terms, but that’s the vibe I’m getting.
Actually I kind of was thinking that something happened between the sister and the boyfriend, and the sister went accusatory for some reason. But also I watch a lot of soap operas. Just something to consider, in case it clicks.
I’m with Matt, something’s really off about this. It’s be weird for someone who feels she’s been sexually assaulted to put herself back in the same situation. On the other hand, I imaging being falsely accused of sexually assaulting someone would also be pretty traumatic, and yet the boyfriend also puts himself back in the exact same situation.
@Sars & Matt — I had the same thought about something going on between Sis and Boyfriend. Maybe the he-said-she-said routine isn’t designed to throw off suspicion, exactly — maybe it’s Sis’s attempt to tell War that Boyfriend is up to no good without fessing up to her part in the betrayal.
It’s the second incident that really makes me scratch my head and wonder if Sis and Boyfriend have been cheating. I would expect Boyfriend to avoid being in close contact with Sis after the first accusation. I am completely with Danielle — for him to hang out with her on the couch while she unbuttons her jeans seems like a really bizarre call on his part, even if he was drunk. What could possibly have been going through his head when he decided that it was a good idea to hang out alone with a drunk Sis? Boyfriend’s version of the second incident just doesn’t add up.
There’s a lot that’s really head-scratchy about this one. I’m with everyone else on the fact that just reading it makes me feel all hinky.
To put it in the kindest way, though — the truth is that people don’t always actually do what is in their best interests, and a lot of abuse situations either arise or continue because someone does something that seems incomprehensible to the rest of us looking at it from the outside.
I’m kind of putting the Sister agreeing to sleep again in the same small apt as Boyfriend, and agreeing to go out and get falling-down drunk again in his company, in that category. I agree with folks who say, “anyone who feels strongly that they were sexually assaulted should want to avoid the hell out of sleeping in the same apt as the guy they feel strongly did it”… and I want to think that I would have the same instincts, but… people really do that, even if we don’t comprehend why.
I’m also of the feeling that even if Boyfriend is “completely innocent”, he also appears to not be making logical or prudent decisions. He also went through that whole, “I’m shocked at the accusations; I have been kicked out of my girlfriend’s house on her sister’s say-so; some time later, my girlfriend took me back” thing, and you would THINK he would learn a few things from it. But apparently what he didn’t learn was, “so even though I’m sober, it would be smart if I didn’t sit on the same couch as Sister when she is blotto drunk, and let her drape ANY part of her body on me, even an innocent part”. You’d think, but he… didn’t, because he let that happen, and if everything is on the up-and-up, that just wasn’t smart.
Maybe he thought, “well, I am sober, so I will make sure that nothing happens that could be taken the wrong way, and Girlfriend will believe me because I’m sober” — but obviously, that wasn’t actually a good strategy. A good strategy would have been, “I’ll just sit in this chair way over here and keep an eye on Sister from out of touch range, in case she vomits or something”.
Perhaps. Or maybe nothing would have worked. Here’s a theory to float (that is a little charitable towards Sister): something happened the first time maybe, case of mistaken identity (where’s the bathroom en route between bedroom and where Sister was sleeping? could he plausibly have still been drunk but got up, went to the bathroom, and in his confusion thought Girlfriend had moved to the couch when he emerged?). The second time, for whatever reason, Sister feels safe enough with the couple to stay there and get drunk with them… but fears are lurking in the back of her head, and when she wakes up, she doesn’t remember that she herself unbuttoned her jeans. Thus, her fears cause her to accuse him of doing something that he didn’t, that time — but it’s still an “honest” accusation, based on her impaired perceptions.
This is all of course if the Boyfriend isn’t gaslighting.
Unfortunately, I don’t know the solution. On the Boyfriend end, if War believes him, I would think it would be possible to have a talk with him about figuring out strategies for the future that will really and truly prevent anything from happening that could even look iffy. Things from “Sister does not stay over with us” to “hey, let’s not get blind drunk again”. (Seriously. Why? Multiple times? Your descriptions of the aftermath don’t make it sound fun. Twice, it has nearly ruined a relationship you love. I’d think that would be the point to say, “getting blind drunk is no longer worth what it’s costing”.)
But on Sister’s side… it’s really difficult. Because I would imagine it would be very difficult to have any conversation with her that suggests you don’t fully believe that what she says happened, happened. (Even couched in terms of, “are you sure it isn’t just that you don’t remember that you yourself unbuttoned your jeans and propped your legs on him?”)
It does seem like, if you believe Boyfriend’s innocence this time, the mere act of not kicking him out is going to seem like a betrayal to Sister. Especially since that’s what you did before, at her accusation of him. So I guess that’s something you need to be able to deal with in the short term. Never mind about “Sister will never forgive him”. Is part of your stress right now that if you seem in any way to be taking his side, will she ever forgive you? I think it’s something you have to consider. (Because if the boyfriend of my sister had sexually assaulted me, and she didn’t dump him, yeah, that would cause a major rift.)
My sympathies, because you don’t have an easy situation to navigate there, for sure.
@Matt & Sarah: I had the same thought after reading Matt’s comment, though I was thinking along the lines that they had a thing and someone (he?) broke it off and she’s mad at him for it. Again though, a little far-fetched and doesn’t explain why he stayed with her in the living room.
Nothing about the whole situation makes sense after the first incident though. War taking the boyfriend back, the sister visiting again and getting that drunk with boyfriend around, boyfriend staying sober and staying in the living room after sister unbuttoned her pants instead of with War, War taking him back again…
@Danielle: the only way that makes any sense to me, at all, is this: if Boyfriend is sober, War is drunk but not very, and Sister is really, seriously drunk.
In that case, the only reason for Boyfriend to stay out there watching Sister sleep (instead of being cuddled with War) is the fear that she may vomit in her sleep and aspirate it, and you know, die. You can put a bucket next to her, but if she rolls over on her back and you don’t know it, the bucket doesn’t do a damn bit of good.
I still say two things.
One: you do that watching-over stuff from across the room, not on the couch with her.
Two: you re-evaluate your entertainment choices if the “fun” aftermath of your night on the town is “watching over people to make sure they don’t die like John Bonham” (which is nobody’s goal in life).
I’ll also say, though, that even if (in my floated theory above) he was innocent AND stayed across the room… that might not have prevented Sister’s accusation if she woke up, found her jeans unbuttoned, didn’t remember how they got that way, and came to the conclusion that he did it at some point. (Hell, he could have been in bed with War, again, and still received that accusation. All it takes is for Sister to wake up and not be able to recall how she became partially undressed.)
Nobody comes out of this thing looking… smart. Boyfriend in particular looks dumb as a post. (Maybe his reason for sitting there while she laid partially over him, asleep, was the notion of not “disturbing” her to extricate himself. If so: no, son. Be unchivalrous, and get out from under her, literally.)
This whole situation, as discribed, is so wierd and hinky that more questions must be asked to get a clearer picture of what the hell is going on.
1)The nature of the relationships. Tug and Sister are close: in what way? Are they each other’s best freinds, or only friends? Did they have a dysfunctional upbringing and are unusually dependent on each other? Are they just lucky and really close siblings? What was the exact nature of the plan for Tug to join Sister in Big City, and how would Boyfreind’s presence change it, prior the incidents?
Tug and Boyfriend are in love. How long have they been together? Has their relationship in general been more smooth or volatile? Is he her first serious relationship and vice versa?
Sis and Boyfreind “got on each other’s nerves”. In what way? Just a “I’m sick of one bathroom for three people” way or “Tug isn’t the same without you around” way?
2) How do the three of you relate to and use alcohol? Is getting blasted a regular thing for you, or did it only happen when the three of you were together? Do any of you have a history (personal or family) of substance abuse? Any history of sexual abuse?
3)What are your ages? I ask because I have heard variations on this kind of story a lot, and the participants tend to be very early twenties, on their own for the first time, and just encountering bigger issues and problems in dealing with relationships and feelings. I am NOT saying “this just seems like a big deal ’cause you’re a baby”–these are repeated accusations of sexual assault and that’s a big deal no matter what age you are. But the tone of your letter does seem like you’ve never dealt with anything like this before and can’t find your footing.
Honestly, I have the feeling that there is a LOT of proving ground behind this story, and that needs to be dealt with before there’s a real hope of figuring out what really went down.
This entire letter sounds kind of fake to be honest. Nothing adds up, and I’m getting a very “Dead Ringers” vibe from the sister’s relationship. Sars is right, it’s unhealthy all the way around.
Even if Boyfriend did something the first time, he had the excuse of being drunk (not that that really excuses it, but still). Why do it again while sober, knowing he can’t use the “I was drunk” excuse again?
Has Sister considered the possibility that one or both instances was a dream?
War,
I agree with all those, including Sars, who have said that the whole thing is just… off. I think you know it is too. I think you might, deep down, know more than you want at this moment to admit.
Your whole letter is about how your sister is the most important person in your life and you can’t deny her side of the story. But… you took your boyfriend back, and you’re still living with him. You are denying her side of the story, on some level. Are your instincts right?
People have raised valid concerns on both sides, although to me it’s your sister’s version that seems more off. I don’t think your sister is consciously lying to you or trying to drive a wedge between you, but I would not be at all surprised if Sars is right and she has unconsciously recognised that she no longer holds the #1 spot in your life. As for your bf; either he IS consciously, deliberately lying to you or he has a frightening lack of control while semiconscious. I could throw out theories – is your sister a vivid dreamer? Could your bf have fallen asleep and let his hand wander? – but none of them really explain things properly.
Trust your instinct.
Oh man, what a nightmare.
I agree with everyone about your sister’s … slightly odd judgment, but also I would quiz your boyfriend a bit more about the “Um – so you just sat on the sofa next to my sleeping sister? Huh?” It’s possible that he just dozed off or something, buuuut – it’s still a weird situation for either of them to be in, one year post-Allegations.
And unless he’s really cast-iron on that – well, I’m kind of leaning towards breaking up with the boyfriend, and telling your sister that you’re not sure whether or not you believe her but this whole thing has made you doubt both relationships and you want to spend some time with other people. Just – you don’t seem to have a strong sense of trust in either of these people right now, and you’re quite possibly being manipulated by at least one of them – it seems to me that you need to take a break from both of them to clear your head, and even if it turns out you’re being unfair to ONE of them, it’s better to do that, and re-build things at a later stage when it all makes more sense than plump for one or the other on principle and spend the rest of your life wondering whether you were wrong.
Horrible, horrible situation, though. I hope something happens that makes it seems a little clearer.
The bits I find interesting are that Sister went to LW immediately after it happened, made the second accusation in the presence of Boyfriend, and that all parties seem to agree that Sister was totally bombed at the time she made the second accusation.
If Sister had just passed out wasted at 1 AM, would she really have the presence of mind to make up a sexual assault story and carry it off *in front of her molester* at 4 AM? That’s a lot of planning, and a lot of acting, for a very drunk person to carry off. If I were going to invent a fake sexual assault to ruin my sister’s relationship, I would tell my sister about it a little while after it supposedly happened, when I was sober and could be sure to keep my story straight, and when a sober Boyfriend wasn’t staring me right in the face.
Sister could not have engineered the second accusation in advance (assuming that she’s working solo), because she didn’t know that she would be alone with the boyfriend. She could have pre-planned to pull this stunt the next time the situation arose, sure, but she would still have had to remember this immediately upon waking from a drunken sleep. By Boyfriend’s own account, Sister told him not to ever touch her again just a minute after waking up, and then went straight to LW. Dunno about you, but I think my thought process would be something more like “BLEAAARRRGH” than “oh, here’s my chance to flawlessly execute my nefarious scheme”. Nor could she have expected to find herself back in the appropriate circumstances to make a false accusation, because Boyfriend might easily have decided never to be alone with her.
I also don’t buy that Boyfriend and Sister made up this story together to cover up an affair, because it’s got too much potential to backfire on Boyfriend. What if Sister told LW, and the LW then told her mom, or her ten best friends, or wrote “Boyfriend is a filthy rapist” on her Facebook page, or tried to push Sister into going to the police? And it’s not like they told LW about it to explain suspicious behavior when she walked in on them — remember, Sister woke up LW to tell her about the second incident, and told LW about the first one well after the fact. If you want to get away with something, wait until someone accuses you before getting defensive.
I could believe that Sister made up the first accusation, but I think it would take a serious case of the Glenn Closes to fake the second one out of whole cloth. It also clarifies the first incident — either he really did assault her again, or else it brought up the memory so strongly that she believed it was happening again. Either way, I think Boyfriend is bad news.
Hinky. The whole situation is hinky. I’m having a very hard time understanding what on earth is compelling Boyfriend to keep coming back. He’s been thrown out on his ear twice now, once (if I’m reading this right) in the middle of the night. And he came back both times? That…is odd. I guess I can understand how the first reconciliation came about, given that he was blackout drunk and can’t account for his actions to himself or anyone else, but the second time? No way. I just can’t see any reasonable person going along with that a second time. As others have noted, his willingness to a) have Sis stay there again at all and b) sit on the couch with her legs across him and jeans unbuttoned for hours…that’s an odd choice for someone who has already been accused of assault. Add that to his willingness to reconcile with War after War threw him out of their shared apartment in the middle of the night on her drunk sister’s say so, and I’m inclined to think that Sis isn’t the only one with questionable motives. I don’t know what Boyfriend is up to, but none of his behavior really makes sense.
The whole thing is weird beyond belief.
Whoops! my second point should read “Tug isn’t the same person WITH you around.”
Holly, you make some great points. The drinking did nothing to up anybody’s IQ, and Boyfreind in particular is coming across as either insanely accomodating or completely idiotic.
Yeah, it might seem like weird behavior from Sister, but Boyfriend’s story is also very weird. If Sister is setting this up, why would she just sort of unbutton her jeans, sleep for a while and then get up and give him an ultimatum?
I actually find it a little easier to explain Sister’s behavior in getting herself into that same situation again, even if something did happen the first time. She could be telling herself “well, he didn’t really do anything too bad, kind of, and he was drunk, right?” Especially since War took him back, maybe that meant it wasn’t as big of a deal as she thought it was. Maybe she shouldn’t be trying to make waves, or make a fuss – she does want to keep visiting War, after all. War gave him a second chance, maybe she should also give him a second chance… I mean, lord knows that War had no good choices since whichever side she believed meant that the other side was a terrible person, but still – if Boyfriend did do something, and it seemed like War forgave him and took him back anyways? That sets up a standard of forgivable behavior that might have made Sister downplay the initial situation in her own mind. And since Boyfriend was saying that he was too drunk to remember anything, then Sister can also explain it away as “oh, that just happened when he was super drunk, that’s not awesome, but as long as he’s not super drunk I’m fine, right? And it was probably just some one-off thing.”
Basically, I don’t think Sister’s story is something you can write off just by saying “well, it’s not rational for someone to act this way,” especially in a case of potential sexual misconduct from someone who’s part of the ‘family,’ who is also a person the people who are your support want to think the best of. It’s a lot harder to think of someone like “my sister’s boyfriend, who she loves, and is in a long-term relationship with and who I’ve also known for a long time” only in terms of “someone who might sexually assault me” and act accordingly, especially when it denies you access to someone you love and when you’re alone in doing so. (Still not saying War did the wrong thing in taking him back! just… it’s easy to see where Sister could be acting ‘irrationally’ because of it)
Also, the two sisters might be close, but they still only see each other two times a year – they might really look forward to the visits, but that’s not really unnatural closeness. Sister was also the first one to move away. It doesn’t sound like she’s given War any ultimatums to choose between her and Boyfriend, even after the first time, even after War took him back, or after this time. It doesn’t mention Sister saying anything else bad about Boyfriend, or suggesting any plans that get her to have War to herself. It doesn’t even say that War’s plan to live in the same Big City was Sister’s plan as well. I mean, maybe War didn’t find those kinds of details relevant to the letter, maybe Sister is super passive-aggressive, but I’m not seeing any pattern of manipulative behavior from Sister just from this letter, or an agenda either.
I am mostly in agreement with everyone here in that this is hinky. The main thing that rings false is boyfriend’s behavior on the second outing. When your girlfriend’s sister is black out drunk and passing out on the sofa you get her a bucket and a glass of water, tuck her under the blanket, make sure she’s on her side, and leave the room. Maybe leave the bedroom door open in case she starts choking, but you do not sit there with her feet in your lap while she undresses herself. This would be true even if the first incident hadn’t happened, but especially so since it had. At the very least your boyfriend has issues with personal boundaries and self preservation there.
I think it is possible the first incidence was an odd case of mistaken identity, it is possible that the second case was a situation of sister getting confused and jumping to conclusions. This, however is the best case scenario and even if it is this innocent y’all need to set ground rules and start using a little common sense. I would also say that the conclusion jumping does mean you and sis need to have a talk, because it does suggest that there is an attention competition going on, even if it’s subconcious. That or your sis and boyfriend have a thing going on, at least a heavy flirtation thing that maybe hasn’t been acted on, and it’s starting to spill over.
Only Tug can decide if it’s worth sitcking it out with boyfriend, but either way some serious talks need to be had both on boundaries and appropriate behavior and the nature of all relationships involved. Also, next visit go to a museum instead of the bar.
Wow. I am not envying War right now. I just re-read the whole thing and I’m going to say I am leaning towards Sister being the honest one here. The reason is – him being sober, her being passing out drunk, and him choosing to stay in the living room with her. It sounds like something a predator would do, thinking he could get away with it if she’s passed out. Only she woke up. And immediately called him on his behavior.
I get the others saying, well why would she put herself in the same situation, but here’s why: She may believe his story that the first time he was black-out drunk, he’s already been punished (kicked out and had to apologize) and she would probably think it was a one-time thing and wouldn’t happen again. Unless he’s a predator.
Of course, there’s enough information missing that it’s hard to tell. But I honestly think it’s really rare that a woman makes up accusations of sexual assault. It sounds like these girls don’t have any other family. It may be the case that this guy just really thought Sister was going to be an easy target.
Hi guys. I knew going in that the responses would be rough, and it sort of feels like I’ve been beaten with a ton of baseball bats, but I do appreciate your responses. I’ll answer a couple questions that were raised in the thread.
1. Sister and I are very close because we are identical twins. We are in our mid-twenties.
2. Boyfriend and I met just shortly before Sister moved away, and Sister and Boyfriend did not interact at all until she began to visit me. They don’t have much in common personality-wise and don’t spend time with each other in any way, so an affair is really unlikely.
3. We don’t go out drinking that much. There’s really no excuse for us getting bombed over the summer — it was just a get-together with some friends we hadn’t seen in months — but New Year’s is a big drinking holiday around here, although I completely agree that we were being irresponsible by getting so, so drunk.
I may not participate further in the thread just because the whole situation IS really messed up and awful, and it’s hard for me to talk about. I just wanted to step in to answer a couple questions to clear things up a little.
I do appreciate all of your input, though, and it’s given me a lot to think about. Thank you.
Yikes. Definitely hinky all around. I’m wondering why boyfriend sat with sister on NYE, seems like boyfriend would have been better off sleeping on the couch with the girls sleeping together.
I’m pretty sure that this same sort of thing happened on L&O:SVU but it was sleepwalking, not drinking.
I agree with Danielle… why in the world would he stay out in the living area with a passed out sister asleep on top of him with her pants unbuttoned? Seems… strange. Perhaps he’s just a caring, stand-up guy and wanted to ensure War’s sister didn’t choke on her own vomit, but still… something just doesn’t sit right for me there.
To rationalize him being out there for 3 hours in a cramped situation while sober, she’d have to be drunk enough where blackouts, alcohol poisoning and vomit choking are very real possibilities. Also in this case, she’d have to be doing something other than sleeping… I heard no talk of holding her hair while she prayed to the porcelain God, nor talk of having to control her in any way from blackout induced ravings. She… slept. On the sofa. On HIM… and he… what? Watched her unbutton her pants? It would mean more if he was also drunk and passed out… but he wasn’t. He was sober and he just stayed up all night to watch a woman sleep who wasn’t his girlfriend for no discernible reason (unless something was left out of the story). Passed out drunks don’t need to be watched, in most cases. War was also drunk, and didn’t warrant the same visual attention… why? The whole thing just rubs me the wrong way. It’s just creepy. I don’t like it.
If we assume the assault actually happened, I can buy sister returning to the scene of the crime on the condition that boyfriend stays mostly sober. If she believed his reasoning for the first event, it’s reasonable she’d agree to a second chance with sobriety being a factor. I’m not sure if she asked for this, or if he just offered, but he was sober on a night that sobriety isn’t usually practiced. So… someone had to be cognizant of the issue.
I think something stinks on both sides of the fence, and that there is more here than a he-said-she-said. I think boyfriend is attracted to War’s sister, so much so that he is doing odd things to be near her… and regardless of whether he acted inappropriately by touching her, he’s got an issue that needs addressed.
I think it’s also possible sister could be blacking out enough that she doesn’t remember unbuttoning her own pants, and then denying this by “remembering” boyfriend doing it. This type of deflecting might indicate she has a problem with alcohol, and is perhaps attempting to break up her sister’s relationship as a cry for help. This is a totally wild theory, though…
At any rate, if it were me, I would have a long talk with boyfriend about why he felt the need to be under sister’s legs and unbuttoned pants for 3 hours while sober… and then try and find activities to do with sister that don’t involve drinking, and have a long talk with her about what might be bothering her.
Then… I’d set up a nanny cam in the living area for the next visit… it’s the only way to be sure. ;-)
This letter is so bizarre I don’t know WHAT to think, but here’s another possibility just for the sake of argument – is it possible Sister’s on something? I’ve never been so drunk I hallucinated, but the fact that Tug doesn’t seem to totally believe Sister’s story, and the fact that serious binge drinking has been the cause of both these episodes, suggests the possibility that Sister might have a substance abuse problem of some sort. If she were on drugs (or maybe if she drinks REALLY heavily, I don’t know) it could definitely explain her strange behavior and her lack of judgment.
‘Now I don’t know if Sister will ever want to stay with me again, as long as Boyfriend is here.’
Yes, and why on EARTH would she, if he has assaulted her twice? And if he’s been falsely accused twice, why would *he* allow her to stay in his home again?
I understand that the letter-writer is in an impossible place. She doesn’t want to believe her boyfriend is a disgusting letch. She doesn’t want to believe that her sister is a lying liar. I mean, the best possible answer here is that it’s all just some sort of horrible drunken misunderstanding on one or both their parts. But given that, why on earth, truly, would any of the three of you decide that setting up this exact same combination of circumstances yet again is a viable idea??
To add a bit of levity I’ll start off with my funny story to explain how the first incident could have happened: I had moved out of my apartment before my roommates, but went back the next night to drink with them. Slept on the couch, got up in the middle of the night to go the bathroom (I guess), and woke up in the morning on the floor in the corner of my old room where the bed would have been had I not already moved. I guess the point is the drunken and then sleeping people can engage in all sorts of confusing behavior.
What if everyone truly believes they are telling the truth? Sister wakes up three hours after drinking hard. Sees BF. Realizes her pants are unzipped. Immediately thinks the worst because the first event actually happened in his drunken bathroom run the first time.
We’re missing some details on the second encounter. If he was actually engaged in fondling her at the time she wakes up, did he sit there complacently while she marches to the sister’s room? Wouldn’t he try to stop her/calm her down? Wouldn’t he react in some manner, as opposed to just waiting for her to come out and yell at him? Maybe Sis truly believed it happened even though it didn’t.
The problem is, even if that is true, it doesn’t change the fractured relationships that have resulted.
Wow, I think this is one of the strangest vine letters I’ve read. I think Jen S 1.0’s take is totally right–we need a lot more information! I would say, though, that Tug should seek out counseling asap to find her own space to think this through and everyone should lay off the booze.
I think boyfriend is guilty and sister is a special kinda something to go back.
I’d be interested to hear more specifics of sister’s side of the story about the second incident. What, specifically, did she say happened? Was it that she woke up with her pants unbuttoned and didn’t remember how it happened? Or did she describe something more specific?
Something just doesn’t add up; I don’t find either story especially believable. I feel like one possibility is that sister made a move on boyfriend, boyfriend rejected her advances, and then, being drunk and super emotional, sister got really angry and made an accusation to get back at him. I could see how boyfriend would make up a cover story in that situation if he knows how important sister is to you and he doesn’t want you to know what she did (and also because “but she hit on ME!” is not the most believable story in the world, even if it is the truth.)
This letter is really The Vine’s Rashomon.
As for weird stuff happening/not remembering things when you’re drunk: When my sister and her husband were in my city, and staying with a friend of theirs, the four of us went out one night. I got trashed, and ended up staying over at the friend’s apartment, too. Because I hadn’t planned to stay the night, I didn’t have any pajamas with me, so went to sleep in my clothes. In the morning, I woke up (under blankets, thankfully) wearing no pants. According to my sister, who was sharing the bed with me, she had told me not to take off my pants as I was removing them, but I did it anyway. (And once she told me, it sounded vaguely right.) Just to say, drunk people do weird shit (and may not remember it).
I agree with all the hinkiness-alerters upthread (particularly the “why would Boyfriend stay on the couch with unbuttoned-pants sister” observations: if Tug wasn’t that drunk, wouldn’t it be worthwhile to wake her up, say, “hey, Sister just unbuttoned her pants & given Last Time, do you think maybe you could go take those off her & put some PJ bottoms on her or something? I’ll wait in here, thanks.”)
but I thought I’d throw out one other observation that hasn’t gotten much attention yet: why the boyfriend acquiesced to being kicked out the first time around, & why his position on the first incident is “well I was blacked out, so I can neither confirm or deny.” if something like this happened with a female friend, no matter how drunk my husband was he would be like, “barring some kind of booze-induced psychosis, that is not something I would EVER, EVER do.” & he would almost certainly want to clear things up with the accusing friend personally (“What do you remember? oh my god, really?! if that happened I’m so sorry but I don’t know how it could’ve…” etc.). & I feel like he would be really resistant to being thrown out on the basis of something he didn’t believe himself capable of doing.
the twins thing complicates things a bit (if nothing else, it makes mistaken identity potentially more plausible than it might be otherwise) but Boyfriend’s implicit admission of potential wrongdoing, coupled with putting himself (as others have noted) in a situation that was rife with opportunities for further accusation, is very very odd. & unless Sister is someone with a high propensity for fabrication/attention-seeking/self-absorption/delusion/etc., I feel like I’d believe someone I’ve known my whole life over someone I was dating, even if I felt like I trusted them.
& another thing: how much postmortem conversation about this has happened between Tug & Sister? I feel like I would want a LOT of groundrule-laying & discussion if an accusation like this was levied & a similar situation was about to present itself. I can see being like, “oh god that was weird; let’s never speak of it again,” but I feel like Sister’s ongoing opinion on things is worth soliciting here; surely, with your closeness & history, you’ll have some sort of a barometer for how honest she’s being, & if she doesn’t seem to be making things up, then it’s possible Boyfriend is Up to Something, even if Sister’s memory isn’t fully capable of reconstructing what happened.
whatever happens, or whatever reality emerges, I’m sorry, Tug: what an awful situation to find yourself in.
One other possibility that jumped to my mind (and I’m really just spit-balling here): Is there any chance Sister has been sexually assaulted in Big City and hasn’t told War? I’m not necessarily saying SVU-raped in an alley, but the date-rapey kind at some party where she wasn’t even sure that it was serious assault at the time and didn’t want to kick up a fuss (unfortunately, this still happens, especially to the young), but it gnawed at her over time. If so, it would be eay for her brain to jump there when she woke up still drunk on a couch with a guy that she believes assaulted her in the past and her pants unbuttoned.
Either way, boyfriend has phenomenally bad judgement.
1. Sister and I are very close because we are identical twins. We are in our mid-twenties.
That might account for some drunken mistaken-identity story in the first incident, but this is all really weird.
War, as others have suggested, you might want some time away from your sister and your boyfriend.
The revelation that War and her sister are identical twins certainly does tip the scales even more in Boyfriend’s favor. It also adds a whole new layer to the issue of Sister possibly feeling as if she is being “replaced”. I’m actually kind of surprised this bit of info wasn’t mentioned in the original letter.
Wow. This letter blows my mind. The most mind blowing part of this is that a fucked up situation occurred, then it occurred *again* in exactly the same way. I really don’t understand why any of these three people would choose to go for a repeat. Though I do understand, as some have mentioned, being in such a state of mind that you believe that it won’t happen again. Still.
War, I get that you’re in a tremendously difficult situation, stuck between your twin and your love. I agree with other people that maybe you need some distance from both to figure out the best course of action for yourself. You seem to thrive on having a close relationship – hell your entire life has revolved around having a close relationship – and it might seems scary to go it alone awhile, but that may be the best thing for you. I don’t know if you’ll ever truly know what happened, unless somebody comes down with a serious case of Guilty Conscience. Don’t count on it, and take care of yourself.
Good luck.
How about:
Sister and Boyfriend hooked up. Consensually. Sister felt bad, and as a way of telling without telling, decided to say it was an assault. Boyfriend didn’t put up a fight about being kicked out, because he was accepting his punishment. For the wrong crime, but he knows he done wrong.
On second visit, they hook up again. Because these things are rarely one-offs. She probably did say “Don’t you ever touch me again,” as reported in your letter, but she wasn’t accusing him of assault.
I do agree something is a little odd about Sister, it does smack of you-like-him-better-than-me angst but I would presume two sisters who are this close would have other clues of jealousy besides sexual assault.
Personally, I think the boyfriend is the bad guy here. The first time, Boyfriend got away with it because of the drunk excuse. Drunken mistaken identity happens. My husband of ten years will cuddle anything: pillow, blanket, dog, his best friend Joe, my mother, etc… when he is that drunk.
The second time… honestly it seems like he planned to get the girls drunk, puts War in the bedroom, and waits like a praying mantis for Sister to fall asleep.
The key is, I don’t think he is an evil sociopath, rather I think he is just curious. He has the ultimate guy fantasy possibility: the chance to be with twins. And when the opportunity arose, I think he sat there fantasizing about it, stealing his nerve to maybe do something, but Sister woke up. And when Sister woke up, her creepy/hinky/icky alarm started bellowing big time.
Of course this is all speculation, but I just try to picture my husband sitting on the couch, watching my attractive friend sleep, with her legs in his lap and her pants undone… and no, that is not good trustworthy behavior.
I’m with Emma B. and Courtney.
Given that false reports of sexual assault happen with the same frequency as false reports of other crimes (extremely rarely), unless Sister is a habitual or compulsive liar, why wouldn’t you believe her?
It’s incredibly problematic to say that ‘she didn’t act like she’d been assaulted.’ People who have been assaulted are capable of acting all kinds of ways, including dozens if not hundreds that are both counter intuitive and perhaps against their own best interest. Victim in real life =/= victim on TV or movies.
Boyfriend acted weird. No, not weird. He acted suspicious to a very WTF degree, and I would kick him out based on that alone. Everybody else, raise your hand if you’ve ever sat on the couch while your significant other’s pants-unbuttoned sibling slept across your body for several hours. No takers? Okay, how about your significant others’s pants-unbuttoned sibling who recently accused you of sexual assault?
I really think you’re going to have to choose between Boyfriend and Sister, here.
Are you ready to permanently end your relationship with Sister over Boyfriend? Is Boyfriend THE ONE enough that you think you’ll be with him forever? Is it a good trade off for losing Sister?
Put yourself in Sister’s shoes: How would you feel if your sister kept dating somebody who had assaulted you?
There is one other rather disturbing thought:
If you and Boyfriend AND Sister manage to patch things up and Boyfriend is in fact guilty, I fear for your sister’s safety the next time she is around him. If he’s gotten away with it twice already, he may feel safe enough to escalate his behavior. After all, you didn’t really believe her the first two times.
War,
I am so sorry that you’re having to deal with this. For what it’s worth, I actually agree with afurrica, except that I don’t think it’s really relevant whether Boyfriend really did assault your sister. I think his “suspicious to a very WTF degree” conduct the second time around sounds like enough of a strike against him–even if he did nothing either time.
Maybe there are more details than we were given that explain how/why the three hour long sofa-legs-pants-unbuttoned scene happened–I don’t know. The information we have just does not add up. I think his lapse in judgment was so serious, and the consequences were so obvious and preventable (given assault accusation #1), that breaking up or at least moving out would be a good idea.
Again, I am really sorry that you’re having to deal with all of this. Good luck.
War, please, please believe your sister. Not just because she’s your sibling, but because odds are overwhelmingly in favor of her telling the truth.
Victims of assault are taught to distrust themselves and their memories. It’s more comfortable for everyone else if they can believe she misremembered, or she made it up.
To those who question War’s sister’s choice to get in the “same situation,” again, victims are taught to distrust themselves. War stated that after the first incident, she herself forgave boyfriend, and then the sister “managed to forgive” boyfriend. Then War assumes everything is “back to normal.” I ask you, what if sister hadn’t “managed to forgive” boyfriend? What if she still acted like she distrusted him? Like, for instance, staying at a hotel? Would War be able to handle it? Wold she pick the boyfriend over her, the sister, and possibly lose her forever? Better not rock the boat. What if she was put in a high-pressure-for-good-times situation like a New year’s Eve party, and in order to be with her sister, who she loves, she has to put up with her assailant, but if she says anything or makes her discomfort evident, she’ll not wreck just the status quo but the whole holiday? Better say nothing.
Yeah. I think I’d need a drink.
Victims are far more likely than others to abuse alcohol.
What if boyfriend, having gotten away with it the first time by virtue of being too drunk to be responsible for his actions, turns it around the second time so that now it’s sister who was so drunk that her memory won’t be trusted?
In 1 in 3 sexual assaults, the perpetrator was intoxicated.
War, it took amazing courage for your sister to tell you what happened to her. You’re in a very painful position, but she even more so. She needs you and your trust. Please, please don’t let her down.
I know i’m going to screw it up if I try linking in text, so everyone, please visit
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
And then here:
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/04/survivor-thread.html
It’s time to stop doubting and blaming victims and work on stopping assault.
Yeah, I’m not getting all the Sister suspicion. War has no way to know what happened the first time, although I don’t know why Sister would make up such a thing, but the second time sounds like a huge load of bullshit.
And: “I can’t believe that Boyfriend would assault her for a second time, completely sober, after the first time almost destroyed our relationship.”
WHAT?
She can’t believe that someone who assaulted (!) her sister (!!) would do it again after the first time almost (!!!) destroyed their relationship? There are so many things wrong with that sentence that I don’t even know where to start.
I just don’t get how the boyfriend is coming out of this smelling like roses with some of the commenters. I guess this is why so many rapes don’t get prosecuted.
Affurica, I posted my comment before yours, but i have to say, WORD to this:
Boyfriend acted weird. No, not weird. He acted suspicious to a very WTF degree, and I would kick him out based on that alone. Everybody else, raise your hand if you’ve ever sat on the couch while your significant other’s pants-unbuttoned sibling slept across your body for several hours. No takers? Okay, how about your significant others’s pants-unbuttoned sibling who recently accused you of sexual assault?
Word, word word.
Sars, I’ve been reading TN since 2001? 2002? I don’t know. A hell of a long time. And you’ve always been my favorite advice columnist. Smart, reasoned, with stunning emotional intelligence. But I just can’t believe what I just read, right here, on your blog:
“Again, everyone deals with sexual assault in different ways, but going back to the tiny apartment where he still lives and tying one on? I don’t mean she’s asking for it, mind you; it’s just not a location I’d want to revisit, personally. Unless…I had an agenda.”
Appalling. C’mon Sars…you’re better than this.
“his story is this: she was very drunk and falling asleep on the couch. She stretched out with her legs over his lap, unbuttoned her jeans for comfort, and fell asleep for several hours. She woke up around 4 AM, went to the door, and told him, “Don’t you ever touch me again,” after which she woke me.”
Here’s what strikes me after reading all the comments and rereading the letter. If I was skeevy boyfriend and had to make up a story to cover my ass this would be it. Remember there is NO CONFIRMATION at all that SHE unbuttoned her pants and put her legs over him. That’s HIS story and I think she did no such thing and he came up with that story to cover up the unbuttoned pants.
This theory explains everything in a much simpler way. It doesn’t make sister a complete idiot risking assault and the boyfriend a clueless idiot who would let her fall asleep on him. And it only assumes one person is lying. Any story about the sister lying to cause trouble also has to have the boyfriend be so unbelievably clueless that I don’t buy it.
War,
I’m so sorry for your situation. I think some people early on in the comments were pointing towards the fact that you took boyfriend back as a sign that you believe him, but to me it seems that you WANT to believe him, and that’s very different. If you firmly, 100% believed he’s innocent, you wouldn’t have written.
I think it’s entirely possible that your sister put herself in the same situation again in an attempt to not jeopardize her relationship with you–as Sigrid says, you’d reconciled with boyfriend, and so to refuse to visit you, or stay with you, would have made it clear that she still thought boyfriend wasn’t trustworthy. Boyfriend’s story is less plausible (I’m with the commenters who think it’s crazy that he, while sober, stayed with her on the couch when her pants were unbuttoned).
Is there any reason not to believe sister? Does she have a history of telling huge lies? Has she gone to extremes in the past to undermine your relationships with boyfriends? Does she have crazy-vivid dreams? Unless the answer to any of those is yes, I think I’d believe the person I’d known for my whole life over the boyfriend whose behavior already seems a bit suspicious.
Good luck. I know it must be awful to read the comments, but I hope they help.