The Vine: February 25, 2009
Hi Sarah,
I do PR for a living (and with that comes a lot of writing and editing) and recently came across a dilemma.
When you are saying that someone “authored an article” (as opposed to “wrote an article”), does that imply that the work is in a scholarly or academic journal, rather than a trade publication?
To back up, I wrote a news item for a client’s website announcing that someone “authored” an article for a magazine, but another person in the firm wrote to say that it should be “wrote” an article, since “authored” isn’t respectful of other works. I consider myself a big grammar and punctuation nerd, but that seems kind of over the top. What are your thoughts?
Thanks so much!
Even I’m Not That Anal About Grammar
Dear Anal,
I don’t know what “isn’t respectful of other works” means, exactly, but if it’s the language we want to respect, I’d go with “wrote” here.”Authored,” to me, implies a broader range of tasks, including but not limited to editing, marshalling data, structural organization, and so on.Writing is writing, but authoring suggests a less literal, more supervisory role in which the author is responsible for the piece, but not necessarily in a way that involves or was limited to actual writing.
I don’t know if that makes sense.Garner’s take is similar; he notes that “author is becoming standard, though responsible writers avoid it when they can,” and in the sense that it often seems to be an overcorrection, using a fancier word when a plainer one is clearer and more appropriate, I concur.He also says that “co-author” is in wide use; in the case of a scholarly article, or a piece for, say, a scientific journal, in which much of the article is not prose, I don’t have a problem with calling ownership of/responsibility for a piece like that “authorship.”
Garner quotes Mencken in explaining how this likely came to be: “To author…arose on the movie lots to designate the preparation of a script.To say that a given author writes a given script may be inaccurate, for a great deal goes into it besides the mere writing of its text, and sometimes the text is the least part of it.”
(All italics theirs, by the way.)
For a magazine article, “wrote” is, I think, correct.For articles or projects in which writing alone doesn’t reflect the process by which the piece is generated, or on which it’s focused, educated use of “authored” is fine, but if you mean “wrote,” just say that.
Hi Sars,
My gramma, who is my only living grandparent and who was like a third parent to me when I was a kid, stopped speaking to my mom 7.5 years ago.They got into a big fight right after my wedding, about me and my behavior at the wedding (which no one else took offense to) and about the suitability of my choice of husband.
I’ve never been told the details, but my mom (whose own grandmother stopped speaking to her when she was 15) defended me and my husband against whatever it was that my gramma said.At one point my mom used swear words and my gramma decided she was too old to be spoken to that way, and that was the end of it.
At the time, this was very complicated, because Gramma was living with my mom and dad.But Gramma moved out with much drama, and my mom and dad moved to another community, and that was that.
Except that it wasn’t.Gramma didn’t cut off contact with my younger (and only) brother or me.This was really weird for me, since the argument had been about me, but I thought that if I kept the lines of communication open, she might come around.
Since this seismic event, my brother got, was treated for and recovered from cancer (my gramma never visited or called him during that time, in fact she left the country to visit relatives without leaving us any way of contacting her), he got married (an event my gramma didn’t attend), he and I both made major geographic moves, and his wife has had three miscarriages.
The thing is, while my gramma passively accepted phone calls, cards and letters from my brother and I, she never initiated any.Even when I called her and left messages, she wouldn’t call back.First I called her once a month, then once a quarter, then twice a year, then once a year.I just kept hoping that something would happen that would change things.But if cancer and the idea of a great-grandchild haven’t, what will?My brother gave up trying long before I did.
Okay, so here’s the point, and my question.My brother and I and our spouses are all going to see my parents for vacation.And we’ve decided we’re done with Gramma.We’re not going to try and see her or call or her or anything.I’m tired of betraying my mom, brother and husband every time I call her.My brother’s wife is pregnant again (this pregnancy is far more advanced than the others, and everyone feels really good about it), and we have so much to celebrate.My brother and I don’t want to cloud that with an unpleasant visit with someone who doesn’t put any energy into us.
But I’m so sad.I really want my gramma back — the one that taught me to sew and to cook and to garden, the one that taught me about loving wild animals, the importance of wearing an apron, and the joy of playing cards.I miss her so much.If we don’t talk to her again, she’ll never have the opportunity to come back.
It’s like she’s already died but she hasn’t really.It’s possible that she could die without ever even knowing about her great-grandchild.How do I get over this?I’ve cried about it almost every day since my brother and I made this decision.He said it was okay if I changed my mind and that he’d go with me to see her, but I’m not going to, I know it’s the right decision.I’m just so powerfully sad.
I don’t want to spend my entire visit with my family crying. What can I do to make it better?
Crybaby
Dear Baby,
You can’t do anything, really; you have to let yourself feel sad, and angry.Your grandmother is too proud to back down, or clinically depressed and not making good emotional decisions, or…it could be anything, but the rationale, such as it may be, doesn’t matter.What matters, unfortunately, is that she turned her back on you and your family, never gave you a reason why, never responds to your attempts to keep in touch…she’s made her choice.
Part of what’s making you sad is exactly that — that she chose to cut ties with you over a perceived slight, one which she apparently brought upon herself, and that she evidently doesn’t care about you or your brother anymore.It’s not just that you miss her; it’s that you’re hurt, and rightly so.And if you cut off contact with her, and don’t give her any more chances to come back into the fold, that means that you have to accept that she’s a hateful grudge-holder, and that the Gramma you knew is out of your life forever.
It sucks, but it’s reality.She’s a selfish bitch, and you don’t want that to be true; nobody would.It’s true regardless.It’s unfair, it’s sad, it’s inexplicable, but it’s still true, and you have to give yourself room to process it, much like you would an actual, physical death.Feel sad.Feel ripped off.Feel pissed.You can’t move on from it until you accept that it is what it is, and what it is is shitty.
It sounds like the rest of your family understands the situation, so you shouldn’t feel bad about getting emotional about it when you’re around them; if you have to take a few minutes in the bathroom to compose yourself, there’s nothing wrong with that.But this is one of those emotional processes where there’s no way around except through.Let yourself feel everything associated with it, and give yourself a break.It doesn’t feel like this forever.
Dear Sars,
Inspired by one of the questions I saw on The Vine recently, I come to you seeking some job advice.
A recent college grad, I’m now ending my seventh month at my job. All in all, I have a good job, but it also carries a lot of stress and about ten extra hours a week, and it’s starting to burn me out. I’ve started looking at other possibilities, and I have a bit of an etiquette question.
Many of the jobs I’m looking at don’t have a salary range listed. Instead, the employers are asking that I contact them with my salary expectations. How should I go about that? I currently make a decent salary at an entry-level position, and am able to save a pretty good amount. I also know that what I’m doing now is different than things like administrative assistance, and I’m not sure how risky it would be to actually try and give them a range that I think is appropriate. I don’t want to try and lowball it and get stuck with something under what I should be earning, but I also don’t want to be knocked out of the running immediately by citing what I think is appropriate and they think is ridiculous.
I’m a bit concerned about getting a salary lower than the one I am currently earning, simply because cost of living and whatnot would kick me in the ass if I earned any less — and I’m looking at jobs that are in Seattle, which is not where I’m working now, so cost of rent and everything else will raise.
Do I simply say that I’m open to negotiation? Do I try to give them a quick note on what my current salary is and that I’d like to make sure I can still survive the next few years? Do I attempt to give them a range and risk living in a box for the next few years (which would suck, given Seattle’s tendency to rain and turn everything to mush)? Any and all advice would be appreciated!
Thanks,
What an awful time to be looking for a new job
Dear Agreed,
It’s a tough time to negotiate that question, because sometimes you get the feeling that, by putting the ball in your court as far as a salary range, HR is hoping to hear a figure lower than they’d thought they’d have to pay — that you’ll price yourself down and save them some money.And while you don’t want to do that, you don’t want to price yourself too high, either, like you said…and you also don’t want to do that “I dunno, what do you want to do” thing where they feel like you don’t have the balls to put your salary requirements out there.
I’d try to split the difference.Before you respond, head to one of the websites that lists what your position, or the position you’ve applied for, typically pays (payscale.com is one), so you can get an idea of what’s realistic, and what the HR rep expects to hear.If there’s a big difference in either direction between that and your current salary, mull over where you want to come in, keeping in mind that jobs in geographic areas with high costs of living tend to account for that in their offers.
Then grit your teeth, mention a number that’s higher than you’d settle for, and add that you read the papers, you understand the economic situation nationally, and you’re willing to discuss.If it, and you, are dismissed out of hand, well, they’re not in a position to pay you what you think you’re worth and you’ll have to look elsewhere.
And remember, it’s a negotiation; it’s business, so try not to worry about what they’ll think of you.You’re trying to get what you can, same as anyone else, and if your expectations are wildly out of whack, the market will correct you in time.So, communicate as best you can that you understand the fiscal realities at this point in history, but also keep in mind that nobody else is going to look out for you in this regard.
Tags: grammar the fam workplace
@ Awful:
Ugh, the salary range question. Ideally, people should not be asking this up front-salary should be discussed AFTER they’ve decided to offer the candidate a job, not before. You want to sell them on you as an employee, not how cheap they can get you. Unfortunately, that’s not the world we live in.
My advice is to dodge if at all possible-say, its negotiable. Change the subject. If that doesn’t work, try something like, I’m seeking a position that will allow me to grow my skills, blah, blah, blah, and I also judge my compensation on more than just salary-I’d like to know more about your total compensation package, blah, blah, blah before I decide. You could also ask what the budget for the position is, but be careful that your tone doesn’t come off flippant.
If you get an HR rep who absolutely WON’T let you out of naming a number, then I agree with Sars, know the range for the position in your area ahead of time, and have a prepared answer (of a range, not a specific dollar figure). Say something like, “I see on payscale.com that the range for this position in the Seattle area is X. I was hoping to be at the (lower, middle, upper) part of that. How does that correspond to your budget for the position?” This tells them that you have done your research and will impress the right interviewer. If they get honked off that you actually know your market value, they are not a company you want to work for anyway. Do not do your research on salary.com, which is notoriously overinflated.
But, really if you can, put off this question until they’ve offered the job and you’ve already sold them on you as an employee.
Actually, there’s a way to finesse the salary question. Tell HR that how much you would expect to be paid for a job depends on the particulars of the job in question, and that you can’t really know until you’ve investigated the job further, which would happen during an interview process. You want to be paid fairly, and you’ll be happy to discuss your salary expectations once you have enough information about the job to know what those expectations are.
If they ask, things that could affect your decision include benefits, flexibility of work hours, the intrinsic interest of the work in question, long-term opportunities to make a meaningful contribution at that company, and any number of other intangibles that you cannot possibly assess from reading a job ad. If they ask for your salary history, be forthcoming, but note that you recognize that your current job is different than the one you are applying for, so you provide the number as a matter of fact, not as an expectation for the next job.
Any job that won’t accept that is likely to be one that can’t afford you anyway. If you are very careful about how you couch this, it doesn’t come off like you not being brave enough to state your requirements, but as you being wise and careful enough not to box anyone into a corner on the basis of too little information.
Interestingly, I had a boss who was always a bit put off by people offering ranges for their salary requirements. “If I offer more than that, are they going to refuse it?” he would demand.
I like ferretrick’s response — by telling them where you got your suggestion, you’re letting them know that a) you know what your skills are worth, and b) you’ll know if they’re trying to be cheapskates.
I freelance so I’m in the same boat as “What an awful time to be looking for a new job” about once a month. What I do when the question comes up is I tell them honestly what I’m currently making and then tell them what I hope to be making (a slightly larger figure). But then I say, “But I’m aware that in these economic times that might not be realistic…” and then I nod knowingly. I don’t know if this is the ideal thing to do but it works for me. It’s better than that helpless shrug Sars warned about, but it leaves room for negotiation too. Either the employer meets my demands or apologetically offers me a lower rate.
How old is Gramma? Personality changes like that can be a sign of Alzheimer’s, I think.
Regarding Crybaby’s gramma….is it possible your grandmother is having mental/physical problems that are causing her to act in this way? It seems – based on your past history with her — somewhat out of character and perhaps her health needs to be evaluated. She may NOT be a selfish bitch — maybe she’s sick. I assume this is something your family has already talked about, but if her behavior is a sign of encroaching dementia (or any number of things), that may help you deal with it (and is, I’m sure, something you guys would want to know).
Good luck!
Chiming in on the “authorship” question… in the medical field, “authorship” has very specific responsiblities attached to it whereas “writer” has just that meaning – person who wrote it. In fact, many companies and journals require proof of expectations being met before they will allow someone to be listed as an “author” on an article. Many journal articles have listed authors who contributed in very specific ways to the piece and are “responsible for the content” but the actual “writing” (as in, wrote down and organized all the stuff the “authors” gave them) was done by someone not even credited.
So, if you’re in a medical or scholarly-affilliated world, “authored” is very specific, but if it’s the commercial or lay world, “wrote” is more appropriate.
Job looker, one bit of semi-advice that you might need to consider while looking. I don’t know exactly how you do this, which is why I say semi-advice, but if you’re looking to relocate, try to get assurances regarding the company’s stability and chances for future layoffs. My wife just recently left her job to go to a new company, and two months later they layed her off for economic reasons. Obviously, a company that is so short-sighted that they don’t recognize they can’t afford a new employee until after they’ve hire her is hopefully going to tank soon anyway, but now she’s out of any job and bitter, and the hope for some future schadenfreude only gets you so far. I can imagine if that also involved a relocation on top of that, she’d be nearing postal. So good luck, but be wary!
Isn’t “authored” one of those words that got “verbed” – like the word “gift” in “He gifted the scooter,” instead of “He made a gift of the scooter,” or “He gave the scooter as a gift,” or some such? Is it new usage? I’ve only heard it in the last couple of years. Just curious.
Baby, I’m so sorry about your Gramma. I can’t believe she pulled her crap on your wedding day! What, she couldn’t let her drama rest for one damn day? Grr! Has Alzheimer’s been ruled out? It makes folks testy and angry and hurtful sometimes. (In my experience, it’s because the Alzheimer sufferer can feel it slipping away and feels helpless) You’ve done all you can to reach out to her & she just turns her back – I want you to promise you won’t beat yourself up over it when you have to turn away also. Sars is right – the woman you loved as a child is no more. She’s been replaced by this cold-hearted woman. That shouldn’t tarnish the lovely memories you have, though. She was just nicer then.
Congratulations on the new niece/nephew! YAY!!!
As others have noted, your gramma’s behavior may be a sign of dementia or alzheimer’s. My grandfather suddenly stopped speaking to my mother and got mad at my brother for never calling (my grandfather changed his phone number and didn’t tell my brother) and it turned out to be dementia. Although I have to say that this behavior must not have been totally out of character for him, because my mom didn’t seem very surprised by being cut out, but was heartbroken when she found out about the dementia. Sadly, there’s not much you can do, if she’s not speaking to you, she’s certainly not going to listen to your advice for a check up. I’m really sorry, I know it hurts. Cherish the memories you have and let yourself mourn as Sars said.
@Crybaby — How old is your gramma? In my gramma’s last couple years of life, when she was about 86-87, she got very mean and hurtful, not towards me necessarily, but towards my mom (accusing her of not caring about my gramma, spending too much time at church of all places), my dad (accusing him of having affairs behind my mom’s back, telling him how selfish he was). My dad never spent too much time with her, but he never complained either. I realize our situations are different, as there is a major rift with your family, and there wasn’t with mine, but I am not sure you have to cut off all ties with her, she might need you now, in fact, just as my gramma needed my family — you just have to decide if your memory of who she was gives you enough strength to be around the person she is now.
@ Awful – while I second ferretrick’s advice, I’m in HR and hate it when people dodge the question of salary. You should know what the job is worth and your own salary range when you apply for it. I get that there is a fear of pricing yourself too low, because companies will take a bargain when they can get one. When you are evesive on the salary questions, most of the time it comes off poorly to a recruiter. We work with budgets, we need to know if you are way off. In my experience, I will tell someone when they are way too high, but am really hesitant to reveal what our budget for the position is because we can run the risk of being held to that number by a candidate. Bottom line: do your research, and give a range when you can. Oh, and don’t put your salary expectations in a resume or cover letter, it’s not appropriate to talk salary until they at least get you on the phone for a pre-sreen.
Having had some experience in hiring in a metropolitan area, I side with stating a salary range upfront (if requested — if not, don’t volunteer until it is). The reason I say this is I had to sift through a hundred apps for the same job, and I really needed shortcuts to cull. People way above the budget didn’t get further consideration; there’s just no point in wasting either of our time. People way below the budget were likely tossed too, under the assumption that they expect a less demanding gig. Sure, there are outliers in either direction that might get an interview — but only if their resume matched the position in an uncanny way.
There’s no shame in asking for what you need to live on, nor in asking for what you’re worth. But every position isn’t meant to be for you either, so don’t take that personally. With a little luck and determination, the right fit at the right price will emerge for you.
Job Seeker,
I completely agree with Sars’s advice; it’s in your best interest to research the compensation expectancy for that particular position in that particular geographic area. Have a number in mind because delay tactics don’t always bode well. Like the first commenter noted, ideally, you’d be asked salary expectations during or after an interview. I have my suspicions, here. The fact that you don’t live in the area where the job is posted makes me believe they’re doing a little extra pruning and weeding of candidates. As you said, these are awful times. Companies who need help don’t want to have to pay additional expenses (i.e. relocation) if they can avoid it. Nonetheless, go for it and good luck!
CryBaby, I agree that the change in personality could be related to other things, but in case its not, it’s worth bearing in mind that a baby can paper over a lot of cracks. My brother stopped talking to my parents for a number of years, but contacted us when his first child was born.
I’m not going to pretend everything was hunky dory after that (he was a troubled guy who later killed himself, so definately not) but at least there was some relationship there.
I know the boot is on the other foot with your Gramma situation, but if your desire to reconnect with her outweighs your done with her dramaness you can, with your brother and his wife’s permission, send her a photo of the baby or perhaps even offer to drive her to meet him or her, if that’s feasible.
Of course, you have to accept that things are not going to be the same as they were (because, seriously, she’s being a cow) and you may just decide that family is the one you make not the one you have, especially since she may still be horrible once she’s back in your life. But if you would feel more at peace knowing you gave it one last shot, maybe a baby is the ammo you need.
And if that doesn’t work, try puppies and kittens, because awwwww.
Baby – I would treat your Gramma like a college friend you’re only in tenuous contact with. Send birthday and Christmas cards, postcards when you go on holiday, and so on. Each time include your address, phone no. email address and latest news, perhaps enclose some photos of the new arrivals. This way she can contact you if she wants to, she isn’t completely cut out, and you can honestly feel like you’ve done your bit to keep channels open. Don’t expect anything in return, and don’t put her under pressure to respond. In addition to checking out her physical and mental health, if possible, you might want to check out her social situation to make sure she’s coping with everything financially and so on.
re: Authored: This seems to be a bit of spillover from academic/scientific writing. In my lab, my advisor gets first author on most papers and is said to have authored them because it’s his money that funds all of the research and he’s usually the last line of defense against silly mistakes going out to review. Even if I do a majority of the data acquisition and compiling and a good chunk of the writing, it’s his research line. On the other hand, I also get a down-the-line co-authorship on papers where I helped one of my labmates run an experiment and explained what to do with the data, which is largely a small chunk of my time and energy. I’ll be getting first author soon on a couple of papers, though, but only because I bust my ass and have taken a research line in a direction that I thought of before he did.
re: Gramma: I’m with others in wondering about dementia/Alzheimers. I knew my step-grandmother was going senile long before most others in the family, only because she started being nice to me and my dad. It can go either way, but a big personality switch at an advanced age is something to try to get medically evaluated, if there’s any extended family your folks can get in touch with and try to encourage that line of inquiry. And being sad is totally normal. With situations like that you should be able to mourn the loss of the person that was, but who isn’t there anymore. Kubler-Ross still applies.
Chiming in also with a suggestion that perhaps Gramma has some Alzheimer’s/mini-stroke things going on. My dad had a stroke at age 49 the day after we had a bit of a dust-up regarding my wedding and it’s been almost 11 years and I still feel guilty. And he’s not the same guy, so there is a lot of accomodating him and “whatever you want, Daddy” going on. IT SUCKS.
All of which is to say: I can relate. When my dad was acting off-the-res crazy, I sat down and wrote him a letter. It said, basically, that he was acting foolish and crazy and I didn’t blame him, exactly, because I knew he didn’t have a lot of control over what his brain was up to, but that his behavior was driving a wedge between us that wasn’t pleasant. He got it. And he’s still got my letter as a reminder.
So perhaps you could sit down and write Gramma a letter pretty much explaining it all. That you feel hurt and all that by her actions of the past years and that you still love her because she’s your grandmother and that you would welcome her reappearance in your life if she so chooses. Life is too short to waste it with this stuff, and Gramma should know all of that, being older and [you’d think] wiser. You don’t have anything to lose by doing it and then you’ll know, whatever the outcome, that you’ve said your piece.
“Authored” in the sense that I’m familiar with it, is, as EB noted, a very specific usage limited mostly to publication of research results. Many research papers are co-authored by several (or even dozens) of people who were responsible for various aspects of the background research, data collection, and analysis. Usually only 1 or 2 of those people actually put the words together to write the article, and they may not be the lead authors.
So yes, to address Anal’s actual question, I would say that saying someone “authored” an article as opposed to “writing” it does carry the implication that the article falls under the category of peer-reviewed research.
As someone who does a lot of hiring I have to chime in as a recruiter and say the advice in the comments is not very helpful if you want to get the job. If the job ad specifically asks you to provide salary expectations in your application, you’d better do it or your application will probably be discarded because you can’t follow instructions. I don’t like to make that a requirement, but when ia company does they’re not kidding around.
Nice as it would be, you can’t delay the salary chat until job offer time. No company has the budget to go through a recruiting process with multiple candidates and make an offer to one only to find she won’t accept the salary.
Dont try to stall or BS the recruiter by saying you need to learn more about the position before you can give salary requirements unless you are actually prepared to give a quote right there after the recruiter – who is trained to do so – answers all those questions. You wouldn’t believe how often people use that line after I’ve spent half an hour talking to them about the job responsibilities. It makes them seem like idiots.
Most companies have salary bands or budgets and most recruiters have a pretty good idea of what the salary ioffer is going to be based on your experience and the market. If I think a candidate is strong and they overshoot the salary band, I’ll let them know and ask if they’d settle for what’s in the budget. If they low-ball it, they’re still going to be offered at least the minimum of the wage band.
My suggestion would be to tell them what you’re making now and say you understand this is a different industry but do need to remain in that ballpark. Candidates who handle the salary question in a straightforward way always impress me.
Regarding the salary range question; most states have an employment development department website that is searchable for such information. In fact, quick look… WA State: http://tinyurl.com/dz33cb Hope that works. It’s the government, dontchaknow, they have all the official info.
I’m currently job hunting myself, and it’s a good resource for all kinds of juicy information about the market. Most of it sucks, but whatever, knowing is half the battle.
CryBaby – I hope suggestions by others that your grandmother has onset dementia or similar are true. This would provide some kind of explanation for her behaviour. My mother-in-law has cut off contact with two out of three of her children. In both cases, it has been her inability to accept that her adult children have made choices she does not like, nor have any control over and concerning things that she can do nothing to change (such as having a relationship with their own FATHER).
We don’t understand her and her completely irrational take on things so we make an active effort not to get involved. This seems to be the only way to handle the situation.
So, Sars is right – its a very very sad situation for you. But its even sadder for her.
I’d encourage crybaby to keep the communication channel open with gramma. It does sound as though Alzheimer’s is a possibility. My mom didn’t speak to me for 17 years. Then one day my dad called and invited me to a family holiday. How was this possible? She was suddenly this really lovely woman who adored me. She had no memory of having cut me off or why. It was weird. But it certainly made my relationship with my dad (to whom I’d stayed close) a lot easier.
As someone upthread said, it can go either way. And it can change from time to time as a person goes through whatever pathology is involved. But it is certainly possible that your gramma’s behavior isn’t something she can really control, and may be something of which she isn’t aware. It doesn’t sound like anyone has actually confronted her about it. And if she is ill, it may be too late for that to make sense. But it’s worth considering.
I gotta chime in with my own experience on the salary question. I’m in my late 30s, I’ve held seven positions at five companies in completely different industries, and I’ve always received an offer from a potential employer. No, I’m not bragging about my track record – I’m writing to say that I’ve never, ever answered a salary question with a specific number, and it hasn’t been an issue.
I think talking explicitly about pay too early in the process muddies the water when it comes to expectations on both sides. And the truth is, SorchaRei is right – there are many other factors that can influence both your decision and your potential employer’s decision. Although talking about salary up front seems honest and direct, I think it actually clouds the interview process and can shut down the conversation before it really gets started. Focus on the broad responses already suggested – ranges, payscale.com answers, etc. – and that should do it.
One caveat, however – I’ve never applied for a job through a recruiter or a website. I find work exclusively through the “inside referral” method – find a place you want to work, and then find someone who works there. It can be a pain in the ass, and it definitely takes longer, but it really, REALLY works.
Again: your mileage may vary, depending on position and industry, but that’s my experience for what it’s worth.
@ Rachel re Gramma: I was thinking along the same lines, as your letter writing idea. A lot of times Dear Abby will suggest someone clip the letter from the paper and send it to the person you need to talk to. It’s a lot easier to be honest when writing a letter to Sars or Dear Abby, and it will get the point across to the person, that you’re THAT upset about the situation. If that makes sense…
Crybaby~I will also echo the dementia/stroke thought: my great grandmother had a stroke during her hip replacement at age 86, and for the 7 years she lived after that, she became hostile and paranoid. She chased people~the mailman, my grandmother, me (and I was 17 at the time!) off of her porch with a shotgun (which we eventually had removed by the police) and she was certain that my grandparents wanted to kill her.
THAT being said, my grandmother is an angry bitch. She’s not the aforementioned great grandmother’s daughter, so it’s not a genetic thing. She recently divorced my grandfather~the man who lived for her and took her constant scolding and yelling~after 65 years of marriage. She decided NOT to come to my wedding because she couldn’t bring her dogs with her~she could have brought them and had them at the hotel, but she wanted them AT the church and reception, and that was not allowed (believe me, I asked!). And these were not little dogs~a Weimereiner and a lab/pit mix! I saw her briefly this Christmas~she offered me a cup of coffee and after about 5 minutes, stopped talking to me. We sat in silence for about 5 more minutes, and then said goodbye and I left. She then called my mom and complained that I should have given more notice before coming over~I had told her 2 days before that I would drop by on Christmas to say hello.
So really, some people are just incapable of moving past events; some people LIVE for their grudges. And I think some of them live incredibly long lives out of spite.
Agree with Recruiter and the others offering excellent advice to job hunters. I’m currently trying to fill a vacancy in my dept. We posted the job on our website, and I have 48 resumes to review, with more coming in. Most of the people, by description, seem way overqualified (not surprising, since its a financial job, in lower Manhattan). Our recruiting manager is helping me weed out resumes by calling people and asking for either their salary expectations or their salary in their current/last job. There’s a spread of over $60K in the amount people were earning, who are applying for this job. I can guarantee you I wouldn’t waste any further time with a candidate who wouldn’t provide an answer.
Depression can also set in and do strange things. My grandmother spent her twilight years fairly happy (with dementia so she’d say some wacky things and forget people, but she was polite about it) on anti-depressants after be unhappy for several years once my aunts and uncle wrangled her into the doctors. They sort of ended up playing good cop/bad cop and finally convinced her to go–and I think when another friend talked about what a good time she had going to a certain clinic for a big check-up so suddenly it seemed like a good idea to her (when that was where they had been trying to convince her to go for weeks).
If the medical avenue can’t be pursued or has been already, I second the suggestion of continuing to send the occassional letter or Christmas card, if it would make you feel better. Since this isn’t a situation where you are being abused or stalked or something, you would sort of let her know that she could still write back whenever she wanted, but you don’t have to go through an awkward phone call or setting up a seemingly unwanted in person visit. A Christmas card and a summertime letter, not too much work. I would just avoid begging her to call or write back in those letters–just share a bit of what’s going on, etc.
On the salary issue — if employers asks for your current salary — tell them. There asking for a reason, and if you don’t tell them, it’s an exuse to weed you out. If you think your current salary is higher than what you’d be willing to take, tell them that too. Many job hunters don’t want to talk salary because they worry they’ll leave money on the table. But either your willing to work for a particular salary or your aren’t. If you get the job and want to negotiate a raise later because you feel you are underpaid, you can do that. Or you can move on to another position. Being coy with information an employer believes is important for the hiring process is not a smart move.
Margaret in CO – both “author” and “gift” have been verbs for a long time (the latter going back to Middle English, I think) but are now experiencing a surge in popularity as such after years of being used mostly as nouns. It doesn’t bother me with “author”, but it drives me nuts with “gift”.
I’m Crybaby. I have thought of the dementia/Alzheimer’s issues, and I tried to get her to talk to a doctor about it, but she would not (I told her I’d go with her, that she didn’t have to take any medications or treatments that she didn’t want, that I’d make the appointments, do research, etc.). My grandmother is opposed to medication or medical treatment of any form — she won’t even take meds for her severe seasonal allergies. It’s not an issue of the meds making her feel weird or drowsy, because she’s never taken them at all to learn how they effect her. I honestly believe that her opposition to treatment is a form of control. It’s like she’s giving her health the silent treatment.
I appreciate the suggestions to maintain minimal contact with her. That’s what I’ve been doing for the last 7 years. The trouble is that each letter, card and phone call feels like a betrayal of the family members that care about me and are involved in my life, especially my mom and husband, and increasingly my brother. I have had hope that a baby would heal this rift, but I had that hope about cancer and my brother’s wedding too, and nothing came of it. And my brother feels pretty strongly that his daughter should be protected from Gramma.
I’m more or less at peace with this. Spending the holiday without a painful visit to her was such a relief for me, and while I know it wasn’t kind, it was honest. Previous holidays have been defined by her absence and punctuated by these painful visits. This one wasn’t about her in any way, and it was a relief to not give her that power over us. Reading my letter in The Vine brought back all my uncertainty and tears, but I think I’m more or less in the anger stage of mourning. How could she turn her back on my brother when he had cancer? How can she not recognize the blessing that his life is? How could she not inquire about my sister-in-law’s first pregnancy, which she was told of? How can she justify not calling me or writing to me, when we were so close for so long? It pisses me off that she’s written us all off. It’s spiteful and mean and I won’t stand for it, especially as my precious little brother becomes a father.
Since writing the letter, I’ve also learned that my Gramma has cut people out of her life before — there was an earlier period where she didn’t speak to my mom, a period where she stopped talking to my uncle (mom’s brother, since deceased), a period where she gave her sister-in-law the silent treatment, and she’s never liked any neighbor she’s ever had. The difference between those other events and this one is that my Grampa was alive then, and he intervened to heal the rifts. I find the fact that my mom’s grandmother (my Gramma’s mom) stopped talking to my mom when she was 15 illuminating. It’s a conflict management strategy my Gramma learned from her mom. It’s a poor one, but it’s the one that she has, and she’s sticking to it. I’ve been the bigger person, I’ve tried to give her a way back to the family, but I’m done trying to fix everything for everybody.
I do have a back-channel to a friend of hers who gives me updates on her health and finances. This friend seems to understand that it’s all I can do, and she seems trustworthy enough to give me honest reports.
I’m sorry to take over the comment thread with my update, but it’s been cathartic. Thank you Sars for the space.
I say do what Sars said, but still go with a range.
Put the amount you need to make to be able to live comfortable and save some at the bottom of the range. I know folks say to try to avoid it, but all the jobs that I’ve applied for have required you to fill it out as part of the application before they’d even interview you. And that’s not just me. A friend of mine who’d been in the military for many years and then was looking for a job when she got out told me all about how she’d read in a book that you should never offer up a number when they asked about salary. Then, they sent her an application that she had to fill out before they’d let her interview and guess what was on it? She even tried to not fill the blank out and they saw that, sent it back to her, and asked her to fix it before granting her the interview. She put in a range like I suggested and they gave her the middle of it. My current job gave me three grand over the top of my range.
Crybaby: I disagree with Sars on this one… if your relationship with your Gramma is important to you, you should fight for it. The elderly are prone to mood swings/dementia in ways that younger folks aren’t.
I think you should go and see her. Just you. Bring treats (coffee cake or something) and show up, and let her know how glad you are to see her. Don’t lay the guilt on, but do indicate that you miss her very much and her role in your life. Let her know how much she has meant to you –people like to reminisce about the good times they’ve had, etc.
You have limited time to do this, which, in my opinion, makes it all the more urgent. (Just my $.02)
@Cry It certainly sounds like this is a pattern of behavior for your Gramma based on your reply comment. As long as you aren’t forcing your family to do anything or trying to drag Gramma back into the mix when they don’t want it, I think you could try to keep an olive branch out to Gramma for your own relationship if you wanted it. Not in a secret-spy sort of way, but letters and such, I don’t think would be a betrayal. Inviting Gramma to family Christmas, yes. I guess I don’t know what else has occurred. If there’s been more serious stuff going on that maintaining contact could spell trouble, then there might be a different story here.
I understand the anger thing (been there with a family member of my own)–its hard, but people aren’t perfect, not even grandmothers. As it turns out, our lives are not Hallmark Movies. Do not flog yourself over it. It sounds like you’ve done alot already, Gramma has to decide to make a change on her side and unfortunately you can’t do it for her.
Katxena/Crybaby:
I’m somewhere in the middle between Sars and jbp. I agree with all the posters who said this could be dementia, but as you pointed out, she’s done this for years and years to other people when she was of completely rational mind. Dementia could be making her noxious behavior worse, but its not the cause-the cause is that she’s, as Sars put it, a selfish bitch.
So, what do you do? My advice is a hybrid-somewhere between cut her out of your life and fight for the relationship with coffee cake and visits and such that jbp suggested. I think that is more effort, and pain, for you when you face the inevitable rejection again. I think what you should do is put the ball squarely in her court-and what I mean by that is you host family dinners and you invite her. You invite her to do something just the two of you once in a while. If she refuses, or doesn’t respond, that’s her problem-the rest of the family will enjoy each other’s company without her.
But you don’t go visit her, and you don’t send cards or gifts. You leave it completely up to her.
This advice comes from my own situation-and while its not the same exactly, its analogous-my partner’s father refuses to accept that my partner is gay and refuses to associate with me. He met me a couple times, and since then has barred me from his house and refused to attend any family gatherings if I am present. This has been very painful for my partner, who is an extremely devoted son who has worked his ass off for his parents over the years. But, the way we have handled it is that we have taken the reigns ourselves. We invite his mother and the rest of the family over for birthdays and holidays, or meet at a restaurant. We make it expressly clear that his father is welcome to join us. If he doesn’t show up, fuck him. The rest of us will have fun without him.
Its not a perfect solution, and I’m not saying my partner doesn’t still ache inside. But this way you aren’t begging, you aren’t betraying anyone else, and you aren’t killing yourself inside. You are in control and you are extending an olive branch. If she wants to act like a spoiled child and won’t take it, her loss.
I’m all for being the bigger person if it’s going to have an effect, but it’s pretty clear from Crybaby’s follow-up that that isn’t going to happen. The cut-and-push strategy isn’t right for every situation or every person, but sometimes, you have to accept that milk can’t be unsoured, throw it out, and move on so that you’re not putting good memories at risk by creating more frustrating ones, and wasting your time. Sometimes, you have to signal — to yourself, as much as to everyone else adjacent to the situation — that there’s a limit to the shit you’re going to eat.
I think this is one of those times. Crybaby doesn’t have to send a letter all “WE’RE DONE HERE” or anything; if Gramma reaches out, great. But: she won’t, and the question wasn’t whether Crybaby should keep trying. The question was how to manage her grief regarding a loss she’s already accepted.
Sure, things change sometimes, a decision you make about how to conduct your emotional life can be reversed, that’s all well and good, but this is already over and has been for years, and Crybaby needs for her own sake to find a way to move on from it.
re: salaries, I teach in a masters program and have many students who are changing fields. I have one student formerly from the business world who made piles more in her last job than she’s ever going to see in a social work job. I have others who have never worked full-time job. I recommend to students in both categories that they do exactly as Sars suggested and do their research, so that they can give an educated answer to how much money they are looking for. (I would also encourage you to start, but not end, your research with the web–one cup of coffee with a colleague or former professor or other member of your professional network can reveal information you can’t get on payscale.com or glassdoor.com.)
HR may need to know what the salary was in your last job for various reasons, but if there’s a logical reason for a big disparity in either direction (you’re looking for much more or much less than that), most recruiters, HR folks, and interviewers are open to hearing that. We all worry about naming a number in this process that is far too low or too high, and that anxiety can be relieved if you’ve done your homework ahead of time.
In addition, job seekers should keep in mind that the time you have the most power in this process is immediately after an employer has offered you a job, so if the company doesn’t bring up salary, it’s in your best interests to wait until this point to do so yourself.
Finally, don’t forget that there are tons of other parts of your job that are not salary but still important, and even in this economy can be negotiated: flextime, benefits, telecommuting, title, parking, duties, frequency of performance reviews, reimbursement or time off for trainings, annual leave…salary is only one of a number of important things on the table when you are being offered a job.
This reminds me a little of my own grandma. It wasn’t that she refused to speak to us, it was more that once my sister and I were no longer little girls she lost interest in us — she didn’t bother to remember our partners’ names, where we worked (if we worked…married ladies didn’t in her day), anything about us really. She’d even call us by the other one’s name (and the two of us are really hard to confuse!)
There was nothing wrong with her at all mentally as far as any of us could work out; she was just someone who was completely focused on herself. We tried for years and years with the whole postcards, birthday cards, visits thing but eventually we both gave up because we were getting nothing back — I think the final straw was when we both realised that the other elderly people at the home where she lived were considerably more interested in us and easier to chat to than our own grandma.
My mother (an only child) didn’t have the option of giving up so carried on grimly trying to be a good daughter right to the end, having told me and my sister not to bother any longer because there was no point. She admitted after my grandma’s death that she had never found her much help as a mother, and she wondered whether this was because she (my grandma) had lost her own mother as a teenager. This is as may be but I felt quite angry that my mother had tried so hard to maintain the relationship and had got so little back herself – fortunately she had an aunt she was closer to.
Anyway, I think what I’m trying to say is that sometimes you can’t fix these things or choose your relatives, or be responsible for their strange behaviour, and you should do what you feel is the right thing and makes you most comfortable, without feeling too guilty.
I think it’s possible there’s an issue here that your Gramma could relate to small children but not older ones (I am sure this was true of mine) — this would at least mean her warmth to you when you were younger was genuine.
Crybaby, I’m not going to make excuses for Gramma. She’s a rear end in a top hat. Some people just are and we have to deal with it. Yeah, it’s nice to think that maybe we can turn these people around. Sadly, that is usually not the case. So, when you start feeling bad about how she flushed your relationship, just ask yourself if you’re better off with her or without her. As Lynda Barry said, there are rotten people in the world that cannot be cured by magical hippy love. You cannot fix Dracula by trying to convince him to just party in the sun with you.
re: Authored. I tend to put people who use “authored” instead of “wrote” in the same category as those who spent the weekend “cycling” instead of “going for a bike ride.” Puhlease.
@Crybaby: It’s impossible for me, an internet stranger, to know if your grandmother’s attitude shift is a product of nature or nurture or both, but I think it’s interesting that her own mother did the same kind of about-face.
At this point there doesn’t seem to be a way both to have your gramma in your life and to stay sane. I’m sorry this has happened to your family; mine is kind of screwed up too, and these shenanigans are really upsetting sometimes.
But back to your grandmother and great-grandmother: If the condition happens to be medical/genetic, it might show up again in another generation. So maybe it would be good for your family to discuss what you’d each want to have happen if you start acting that way? To develop plans that would kick in if needed, so that you could prepare to recognize and respond to a problem?
Then, if the attitude shift strikes again, maybe that unfortunate family member will be willing to take advice from herself circa 2009 and would seek treatment even if, at the time, she feels justified in acting badly.
Good luck. I hope you have a wonderful family visit and many more to come.
@Crybaby,
You don’t say what other drama might have involved Gramma in your younger years, but it does sound like Gramma has some experience with modern Sturm Und Drang. I’ve had to live through this with a close blood relative, and Sars is right. She made the choice here, and no matter what you do at this point, it only feeds her need for the drama. Unfortunately, she may be getting some payoff from even the idea of making you crazy. Sorry to say it, but it may be true. Deep breath and focus on the best times – maybe even choose 3 or 4 really great memories to comfort yourself – and leave it at that. Focus your energy instead on your brother’s upcoming bundle of joy. Best of luck – you’re not the first one to go through this, and you won’t be the last.
I’m going to chime in on the dementia front–my dad was always a difficult and frequently not-so-nice person, but after my parents’ divorce, he started pushing his family away. I tried to keep in touch, but as he started developing symptoms of dementia (much of which was only clear in retrospect), he would lose mail, lose my address, lose my phone number. He depended on his girlfriend (who was also developing dementia) to dial for him (and couldn’t hear well on the phone because he wasn’t getting his ears cleaned, which made his deafness worse).
And when we finally figured out what was going on and had a family intervention, he was genuinely surprised that we cared about him (although not cooperative). From his point of view, we were the ones who had rejected him.
What you do is your choice: you have to protect yourself emotionally. For me, it meant avoiding my dad for several years, but oddly enough I was able to have a better relationship with him in the last year of his life than I’d had since I was 12 (I’m 24 now). As his Alzheimer’s and cancer progressed, he became more emotionally open. But none of that changes the fact that for many years, he was a largely negative force in my life and I protected myself best by avoiding talking to him.
I understand missing a person who’s no longer there even though they’re still alive–I still miss the father I had when I was a kid. It’s hard. Therapy helped for me. I’m glad you’re at peace, and please try to stay that way even if it turns out that she does have dementia. People with dementia rarely cooperate with family members trying to help them, or with medical care–it’s scary to accept that you have dementia, and you can’t necessarily remember to take care of yourself. If my dad had not developed cancer, we would have had to put him in a facility with lockdown for his own safety instead of the much better foster care situation we found for his last few months (after he had run away from his previous place and made it halfway across the country). So you shouldn’t blame yourself for not trying harder if she does turn out to be sick–this kind of situation is immensely difficult (especially when everyone has mixed feelings about the sick person) and can destroy relationships between healthy family members.