The Vine: July 1, 2009
Hi Sars,
The story is this: I am a 21-year-old high-school graduate who has spent about four years on a two-year degree because of lack of focus, lack of money, and lack of “motivation.”
Oh, also home-schooled a lot 4th-12th grades. My personality is generally extroverted, to the point where I only seem to get attention I don’t want from even more socially crippled weeaboos than myself.
Never dated, never been dumped, nothing. Outside of some unfortunate (and illegal, according to Chris Hansen) middle/high school “online boyfriend” stuff. Which was not smart, but my bottom line is, given my naïveté, should I venture into online dating?
Never Been Dissed
Dear Never,
I’m going to say no, but not because of the “online” part.I don’t think the “dating” part is a great idea until you get to a place where you can talk about yourself without creating a ground fog of self-loathing.
Read this letter again.Look at how you talk about yourself.”I’m unfocused and lazy.””I’m socially crippled.”Why do you want to get into a relationship with anyone else when your relationship with yourself is so abusive?Even if you were just joking around, or thought you were, jokes always have a grain of truth.
It’s not going to hurt to go on dating sites and see what they’re about, but I feel like you only want to do it because you think you’re supposed to, and you think you’re supposed to because what you want to do is obviously lame and incorrect.And whatever else works or doesn’t work in an online dating profile, I gotta tell you, obvious low self-esteem isn’t going to get it done.
If you want to date, date; if you don’t, don’t.But making the entire enterprise about the qualities or experience you lack is starting from the wrong place.Wanting companionship is one thing; trying to correct perceived deficiencies is another.
Dear Sars:
I love reading your advice column, and always wonder how people can have such complex (read: long) problems. Then, the below happened.
My mom and I are in big trouble. Seriously. I’m 35 years old, and she raised me as a single parent from the time I was 9. She paid (in full!) for my college, bought me a used car when I turned 16, made sure I had whatever clothes I needed, allowed me to turn vegetarian when I was 14 with barely a whimper, on and on.
We’ve always been close — not as close as she would have liked perhaps, but closer than most, I think. We talked almost every day, for years, and even though I live 2,000 miles away I always visited twice a year, as did she.
But over the last several years, we just keep getting further and further apart. Everything I do, everything she does: it just drives the rift between us further. Yesterday, I hung up on her (she’s hung up on me before, but never the reverse) and she didn’t call me back. I don’t know when we’ll talk again.
It isn’t an easy story — oh, she doesn’t listen, or oh, I don’t love her. Just — endless variations on you don’t GET me. On both sides. I have a long (endless) list of petty complaints:
My husband and I got married with just our parents in attendance. When I asked her if she would come, she said she’d think about it, then called back and said, “No, I’ve got a Stampin’ Up party that I am hosting planned that weekend that I don’t want to cancel.” I said fine, calmly, and then later she changed her mind and did come. But the bitterness stays with me.
I asked her to my new husband’s family’s big traditional Thanksgiving, not wanting her to be alone (her husband of 15 years had just passed away). She asks if she can invite her new boyfriend (“The man I’m going to marry!”,”Thanksgiving Charms“), to the condo that my husband’s family arranged, and then gets mad when I say no. One week after Thanksgiving, they break up.
She is very (very) emotional. When she tells me (after I ask) that she is engaged to another man she met online, I focus in (with perhaps jerk-ish intensity) on how he’s rich. I don’t feel like talking about how their souls touch (my mom is in town to take care of my not-quite-one-year-old son while my husband and I are both at 16-hour-day conferences for work. I’m tired, sad, missing my son, and overworked), so I ask her what kind of car he’ll buy her, where they can vacation together, etc. I really don’t mean it as she takes it, but she takes it as: I’m a real jerk.
So she stays up all night, and as I leave at 5:30 AM for another day at the conference (did I mention I’m 8 weeks pregnant at this point?) she hands me a typed letter she worked on all night, accusing me of being cruel and not caring for her at all.
I come home early from the conference that day, and explode. Scream “I hate you,” over and over again like the 13-year-old me self never did, ask her to leave. She stays, after I beg her to, and then says, “Oh, it’s natural for a daughter to hate her mother, you are just separating from me.” Which feels like a dismissal of all I actually was feeling — the rage that she would choose such a wildly inappropriate time to call me out on being so rude.
My husband, son and I have planned a trip home for three weeks from now. She calls and says we may need to postpone it a week or two — it has become her wedding weekend. I mention it will be odd to meet her husband the weekend they get married, and she said, “I asked if he could come with me the week I babysat Oliver, and you said no.”
I, once again, feel overwhelming sadness and anger. I asked her to come up for four days to care for my son, not to meet her intended (who she had not even met when we first made the arrangements for the trip — she met him five days later) or to listen to her soul. I. Just. Wanted. Help. And she seems incapable of giving it.
There’s so much more. Comparing my son to my sister’s new company (“her company is her Oliver”) or my mom’s new dog (“Coco is just my Oliver.”). I get that businesses and new dogs are hard, but new children they are not. Talking about how I don’t know how she feels because “You’ve never lived alone.” (I lived alone for 10 out of the last 15 years.) Generously arranging to pay for a cross-country bicycle trip for me a few years ago, but then expressly ignoring my wishes for her not to visit the weekend before I leave. She visits, and said “emotional talk” (read: crying jag) ensues, as it always does.
We cannot see each other or talk to each other without both or one of us ending in tears. Help! I am pregnant! I don’t want my children to treat me like I am treating her, and I don’t want to treat my children like she treats me. How can I forgive and let go? Why do I get and stay so angry at her for such relatively small things?
I’m sure her list of my flaws is just as long as mine of hers; I just can’t figure out how to get past this.
Any advice will be very welcome advice.
My Husband And I Just Got Turned Down For A House Refinancing And I Couldn’t Even Call My Mom To Cry About It
Dear Cry,
I’m going to point you to two bits from your letter that, frankly, rubbed me the wrong way.Ready?
I asked her to come up for four days to care for my son, not to meet her intended (who she had not even met when we first made the arrangements for the trip — she met him five days later) or to listen to her soul. I. Just. Wanted. Help. And she seems incapable of giving it.
Generously arranging to pay for a cross-country bicycle trip for me a few years ago, but then expressly ignoring my wishes for her not to visit the weekend before I leave.
Not that I didn’t spike a brow at some of your mother’s choices too, but I can’t imagine your sense of entitlement is helping the relationship.”I want my mother to provide child-care and emotional support for me, but when I’m asked the same in return, it’s a hurtful irritant.””I want my mother to shower me with generosity, but when I’m forced to accept that every gift has its price, I act like it’s a gross imposition.”Yeah…no.Not how adults behave, towards their parents or otherwise.Relationships are a give-and-take; your switch is set to take-only, and you want to control the terms.
Your mother’s behavior surrounding your wedding was horseshit, and she should have been told in no uncertain terms at the time that you considered that manipulative and hurtful in the extreme — but you might also consider the possibility that she pulls this kind of thing to get your attention, to get you to focus on her, instead of taking her for granted and expecting her unconditional love while not reciprocating.
Yes, actually…you do.Again, no, I don’t think this online rich fiancé whatever guy sounds like the greatest decision ever made, but if you’re not going to include him, or even care about him except to shit all over him, and he matters to her, well, how else might she prompt you to pay her some mind?I mean, whether she does it on purpose or not, it’s working; you’re not really thinking about anything besides how it affects you, but you are in fact thinking about it.
The fact that she has a life, in which she doesn’t do everything you want her to do when you want her to do it, doesn’t mean she doesn’t support you, or care about you, or want to help you.You’re confusing unconditional love with “giving you her constant, undivided attention and never asking for anything in return”; they aren’t the same things, and it is not realistic for an adult to expect this.You don’t have to agree with her decisions — I wouldn’t either, probably — but you do have to stop acting like every one of them is a pain in your ass and your ass alone.
If you want to “get past” these issues with your mother, you will have to revise your understanding of what her role means, and it no longer means what it meant when you were a helpless infant.You have a job, and children of your own; you are a competent person who votes.It’s fine to want someone to pick you up and dandle you on her knee when you’re stressed out, and I don’t think you’re a selfish asshole across the board or anything like that, or that your mother isn’t to blame for letting things progress to this point.It does take two.
But you both need to stop acting like the relationship is the same as when you were a child; you both need to stop conflating “love” and “getting your way.”The next time you go down this road with her, think about how she might feel when her daughter treats her like a disappointing employee, and see if you can’t break the cycle.
Dear Sars,
I have quite a weird situation. Six years ago, I broke up with a long-term boyfriend. I’m happily over that break-up now, and I’m guessing the ex is too — but our mutual friends, not so much.
We were the first serious couple in our group of friends, back when we were both 18. The breakup was pretty unpleasant; Ex had some big problems he’d kept concealed from me (compulsive lying and piles of debt racked up in my name). Yeah, not someone I want back. Eventually he grew up and got some therapy, though, and now he’s much less of a dick. We’re never going to be friends (something he’s now finally accepted), but we can make polite small talk at parties fine.
These days, I have a great job in a great city and a boyfriend I love to pieces. Life is sweet. I’m still in touch with most of those old university friends, and we try to meet up any time we’re in each other’s part of the country. Most of them are Ex’s friends, too, which is cool with me; they don’t know why we broke up, but they know we did.
Or so you’d think. A few months ago, when I was catching up with “Mary” and mentioned something aboutmoving closer to my boyfriend, she blinked and said “Is this a new boyfriend since [Ex]?” I laughed it off and pointed out that there’ve been a few boyfriends since Ex, it having been several years now, but, um, weird.
If it was just Mary I’d let it go — I hardly ever see her and we were never that close anyway. But, it’s not just Mary. Last year, I stopped to say hi to Ex at a friend’s birthday party, and half an hour later one friend drunkenly tapped me on the shoulder to say he’d seen us talking and he was so happy about it he’d phoned another friend to share the good news. Um…okay?
Usually the mutual friends don’t mention Ex around me at all, but any time he comes up in conversation, they tend to act as though the relationship ended last week: “So [Ex] came up to visit and — oh my God, sorry, I didn’t think!”, that sort of thing. When Ex and his girlfriend decided to get married, two friends broke it to me like it was a bombshell: “I have something really difficult to tell you, but I didn’t want you to find out accidentally!” Sars, they were literally cringing as they told me — and then I had to tell them about four times that I wasn’t upset before they believed me.
Recently, I missed a chance to meet up with half a dozen friends who were visiting my city for a few days; it turns out that they had a discussion about it and decided to not tell me they were here, since part of the reason they were visiting was to go to Ex’s stag night, and it would have been really awkward if we met for coffee and they had to tell me that. It wouldn’t have been, actually, and I don’t have any problem with Ex’s friends wanting to celebrate with him before his wedding — but I’m a bit put out that I missed them because they didn’t think I could handle an Ex-related reason for their visit.
I’ve told them multiple times that there’s no need to walk on eggshells round me. I wish Ex well and hope he’s got his life together, but I’m long over the breakup. I’ve never flipped out at a mention of Ex; I’ve never even got upset. But here I am six years later, still surrounded by eggshells.
Sars, what’s going on here? And how do I get through to my friends that while I really do appreciate the thought, all this tiptoeing around me has gone beyond “unnecessary” and into “frankly kind of insulting”?
Who’s Carrying A Torch Here Anyway?
Dear Torch,
I had this happen with a few friends after a long-ago breakup…I mean, the split is close to ten years ago now, and some of them just stopped making the sympathetic “yeesh” face at the mention of his name, like, last year.Guys: he’s married with a kid, and we’re friendly, and it was an ice age ago.Enough.
Why they do that, I don’t know, honestly.I think it’s a kind of conversational…security blanket, I guess, for lack of a better term — that this is what they know how to talk about with you, and they have trouble letting go of it.Habit, in other words.I suspect that in some cases it’s also related to the obsession some married couples have with setting up their friends, just some vicarious…something there, which is totally well-meaning but unfortunately assumes that single = unhappy.
Getting them to stop is a variation on one of our favorite Vine ditties, “Okay Then, Dude (Let’s Change The Subject).”Repeated protests that you don’t give a shit may read as you protesting too much; what they remember isn’t that you rolled your eyes at the beginning, it’s that the conversation about Ex went on for ten minutes, if you see what I’m saying.So, don’t let it.”Glad to hear Ex is doing well.Hey, that reminds me of this other topic.”Accept the information gracefully, and depart the subject ASAP.People don’t tend to continue behaviors that don’t get a response; pointing out that I really didn’t care that much didn’t work, so I just quit pointing anything out at all.
As far as the stag party, stuff like that isn’t cool, and you should let them know that — leave Ex out of it, even if he’s cited by them as the reason, and say that you can make your own decisions and you’re pissed that they didn’t call you.
But if you stop caring that they care, they will stop caring, after a while.And even if they don’t, you…don’t care that they care, so it’s fine either way.
Tags: boys (and girls) friendships the fam
@bex – I’ve just got to say something here.
Anyone with a young child, and pregnant with another, is going to get stressed and overwhelmed sometimes. Sleep deprivation, hormones, etc. Working long days on top of that makes it harder. Cry could have also lashed out at her hubby or someone who cut her off on the freeway, too. Cry’s behavior in yelling at her mother wasn’t appropriate – but accuse her of being unable to be a parent because her mother came out to help? That sure as shit isn’t an appropriate accusation to her – or me.
A grandmother coming to help tend to her grandchildren is not something a parent should be ashamed of. My mother just left after being here 3.5 weeks to help take care of our new baby because our full-time childcare couldn’t take someone younger than 3 months old.
We celebrated my mother’s presence here and were thrilled that our kids could have some quality time with her instead of just the quick, chaos-filled trips back at holidays. I wish we lived closer to the rest of our family – but that isn’t possible right now.
I certainly didn’t “make” my mother fly 1,500 miles to be an exploited, unpaid childcare resource. My mother certainly didn’t feel put-upon to spend time with her grandchildren; rather, she was thrilled to have the time with them.
Cry, I read your letter and reply and am impressed with the fact you are so ready to do something, and suprisingly non-defensive about your part in this tangled web of motherly love. It’s reallly hard to display the not so shiny parts of yourself, internet or no, and you didn’t flinch.
My only advice for you is: Don’t quit therapy. Not when it gets hard. Not when it brings up lots of really heavy crap and puts a strain on your everyday life with your family. Not when your mom panics about having to actually change the decades old, emotionally-fraught-but-comfortable way you two relate and lists all the perfectly good reasons why you should stop. Not when your husband complains it’s too expensive. Not when your crap HMO declares it’ll pay for one session a year.
Therapy, in our society, is presented as a “go a few times, get magically better, and every relationship will become painfree and joyful for all time” thing, but it’s not. It’s about dealing with really hard, messy, but NECESSARY changes to make your life tenable, and make sure your family is a strong one. That takes a long, meandering, back and forth time, and it’s worth it to make some sacrifices (within reason.) This isn’t redecorating the living room or going on vacation or even Christmas presents: it isn’t a descrete, savable-for goal that you achieve and never have to think about again.
I don’t mean you have to go to five day a week Freudian analysis for years or filter your every movement through a theraputic lens–that’s going too far in the other direction. But don’t let anyone convince you it’s an “extra”, or self-indulgent, or not really needed. It is.
Some of the comments have been harsh — my own response was not a lavender bubble bath, obviously — but, as always, thoughtfully so. Just taking a moment to appreciate the “good breeding” (the second-highest compliment my grandmother could bestow; hee) of the readership, and the good insights, too. Thanks, team.
On a more specific note, I didn’t get the impression that the child care itself was phrased as a demand, or that Cry’s mom didn’t want to do it; I assumed it was part of a planned visit and not a switch-up or hard labor or anything like that. I do think sometimes a grandparent’s ability or willingness to pitch in in that way is taken a bit for granted by parents, and that happened to tie in with what seemed to be the problem here, but to characterize Cry as getting on the phone and ordering Mom to come watch the baby is most likely unfair.
@Cry: I know you love your mom. And it sounds like whatever head-smack you need, you have already given to yourself, so don’t dwell on that part. Like I said, your mom loves you, and whatever issues folks have with your initial letter, this is WAY better than having you say, “Screw it, I’m just not talking to my mom anymore.” Good luck to you, lady. You’ll figure it out.
I’m another grown-up girl with a complex mom relationship, and I wanted to second the therapy recommendations. My mom wasn’t a single mom, but she was an overwhelming influence, really, to the exclusion of my dad in some ways, and it is incredibly difficult to… I don’t even know how to explain this, exactly. So much of how I look at the world is influenced by how my mom looks at the world, and I’m only partially aware of it. Because these attitudes and reactions are what I grew up with, they seem normal and logical to me, and without the help of an outside observer, I am actually incapable of recognizing that they are a fundamental part of the problem. I’m not explaining this well: it’s like I don’t even realize there’s a box to think outside of, to use a terrible metaphor, until I can see someone waving at me from outside of it. An outside person helps you question *deeper* than you can on your own, sometimes, helps you get at the *why* underneath, so you can start straightening out the knots and letting go of what’s caught up in them.
The other thing is, don’t be afraid to change therapists if you’re not making progress. I went to therapy with a woman I liked a lot for a long time; I’d go and talk about my issues and she’d crack up and we’d have a nice 55 minutes, and in the end I was still in the same place: depressed, and really angry at my parents and the rest of the world. This is not to say the time I spent with her was worthless – talking stuff out is worthwhile. But I wasn’t learning to cope better. So my point is: it’s okay to look around for someone you click with – it doesn’t always happen at first, but when it is happening, you’ll know it. It’s hard work, maybe even a lifetime’s work, I sometimes worry, but it’s worth it, for you and for your kids. Good luck. And good on you for being brave enough to come in here and respond to comments so gracefully.
It was driving me crazy. http://www.stampinup.com/
(Also, Margaret – as bad as this is, my mom pointed out that this had seemed to her sure to be the death of Liz Taylor, and lordy just imagine that. No songs to run through our heads, displacing “Thriller”, perhaps – but at least a diversion from MJ …)
Cry, good on ya and I wish you and your mom all the best. Lucky me, I’m getting off early today, and my mom’s in a Garage Cleaning Mood, so I’ll be heading out there in a couple hours to go terrorize … something retail, no doubt. Hee. And thank you. I’ma tell her about this thread and give her a big long hug, which she seems to need right now. (Having just come home to her “in a silent-treatment mood” husband, from a 3000 mile/11 day trip to go take care of my brother’s family a bit.)
Oh I have to chime in ONE MORE TIME and then I’ll stop — @ Margaret in CO, a slap in the face would have been (as it turns out) both appropriate and deserved, and I get it! I agree with what you said, and my rage-filled notebook, whether there is anything worthy of anything at all in there or not, clearly needs clearing out (and my red wagon of shit needs dumping, and … etc!). Your comments were NOT like @bex, who basically said I shouldn’t be a mom, which … you know … may honestly be how she feels, but, didn’t seem like a valuable or useful comment. Your wonderful things notebook is a good idea, and your advice, however sharply worded, was pointed and helpful. And can I second Sars on how really really good her readership is? Sometimes, surely, we all need a clear outlook on our own bad behavior. (Side note: my mom, wait for it, is a psychologist, so my avoidance of therapy ties back to her love of therapy, and on and on and on … no more excuses, I’m on my way.) Okay, I promise, I swear, no more comments! But endless thanks.
Never: Oh, socialization. Take comfort in the fact that there are plenty of people who were not homeschooled, yet have the social skills of feral children.
You’re aware that social skills exist, and value their use, which is a plus, and if you’re like a lot of people I know who mourn their inadequate social skills, you’re probably at about B+ level, and are just introverted, and probably smart and probably picky. You may also be turning your diffidence about other people into their diffidence about you, and sublimating your guilt about being picky into nice, controllable, “victim-free” self-criticism. Or maybe that’s just me…
Anyway, all of that does not mean that socializing isn’t hard or that dating doesn’t suck. I would specifically advise against online dating for all sorts of reasons, but mainly this: your objective is to be interacting honestly in real life with someone. Online dating is a way of keeping yourself separate and presenting a selective, edited version of yourself. It will not give you skills for interacting honestly in real life, so it’s not getting you closer to your goal.
(This assumes that we’re not in Dan Savage territory and there are no special limiting considerations requiring the added reach, selectivity, and initial safety net of the internet. Sometimes I wish I had Dan Savage considerations just for that reason, in fact – he makes it sound so easy…)
What I do recommend is using the nice, easy, safe internet to extend your network of friends, and teach yourself more about interacting with people that way. Join messageboards and forums, then use those forums to meet people in person in low-stakes ways. Find interest groups and volunteer groups in your area. Attend meetings and events and conventions. Start conventions, for that matter – I’ve done that (we’re in year 5!), and so have my friends (they’re dormant, but are still a good example of how to do something really cool with very little.)
http://www.jemcon.org/
http://www.melm.org/~mikey/narbonicon/index.php
If all else fails – and I say this lovingly, as a longtime SCAer – you could find a local branch of the Society for Creative Anachronism, which is advertised as a medieval/Renaissance living history group, but is really a living community of a lot of smart, weird, interesting, pan-geeky people (and plenty of boring blowhards and some creeps, because that’s humanity for you) with varying interests in the history and culture (all-consuming and academic to “I really like ‘Labyrinth'”) and a lot of interest in being part of a community. There you will witness amazing displays of formalized etiquette, generosity, and true friendship, and some of the most astonishing, appalling examples of poor socialization on the planet. It’s like instant Sociology, and can make you feel like the sovereign of social skills without you having to lift a finger. It also offers an organizational structure that can teach you how to start your own interest groups and conventions, as a bonus.
Anyway, this doesn’t sound like it answers your dating dilemma, but it’s amazing how natural and comfortable and true to yourself you can be while you’re busy doing platonic stuff, and how good you can feel about yourself doing it, and how attractive that can be to fellow platonic stuff-doers. (Not so much for straight women at JemCon, but oh well.)
For Never:
If you’re looking for a relationship, and feel as though online dating is a way of approaching it that won’t make you feel uncomfortable based on your social history, then Sars is right: you’re going to need to alter your image of yourself pronto. Actually, that first part of the sentence doesn’t necessarily need to be there. Sars is right: you need to alter your image of yourself pronto.
Online dating gives you access to a lot of people you can talk with and with whom you can potentially connect, but in order to do this successfully, you’re going to have to figure out how you want to convey yourself. Because seriously? If I saw a profile of you on match.com, and you described yourself the way you have in your letter here, I would close that window and not think twice about it.
Yes, chemistry.com and eharmony are going to give you all of their little love stories on tv, and they praise our uniqueness and our quirks and tell us that regardless of who we are, we can find love. And we all get to wonder who our matches really are, and if we’re the goofs who are going to find our ball, whatever. But when it comes down to it, online dating is still dating. It’s still social interaction. You’re going to meet people who you wished were different in just one little way that would make them perfect. People will fall for you, while your reaction to them could merely be one of “ick.” You’re going to have really freaking awkward conversations. You’re probably even going to find people who aren’t looking for a relationship so much as are just chain daters. In some ways, online dating can be even more demanding, because it’s asking for much more truth and faith – in yourself just as much as others.
And there’s also more risk for rejection. I’ve seen quite a few friends sign up for the various sites, and they’ve met some great guys. But they all also had at least one experience where they felt as though they’d done something wrong, and if you’re already dealing with low self-esteem, this isn’t an arena you should throw yourself into.
I get a feeling you’re looking at online dating because you think it will be an easier way of finding people without having to rely on social experiences that people who have been in relationships, or weren’t home-schooled, or didn’t have online relationships might have. But it doesn’t work that way. Online dating isn’t a way of “cheating” your way into a social situation. It’s still going to require self-confidence and self-awareness. And if you decide to venture into it, you’re also going to need to remember that just because you haven’t promised to not wear flannel nightgowns to somebody within a year, it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re doing anything “wrong.”
Hey Cry: just wanted to say I’m super impressed with your reaction to all of these responses… I don’t think I’d have taken it with as much grace. So whatever else you might be, I think “very intelligent” probably tops the list… cause I doubt that an intellectually dull person would been able to go to the equanimous place you went with this. Good on ya. You’re totally going to dig your way out of the hole you’re in, especially since you and your mom both want a fix. You are lucky to have each other.
Here’s a DC therapist who is phenomenal: http://www.districttherapy.com/background_Washington_DC_Psychotherapy.html
As far as child care goes — I have, in fact, asked my mother to fly 2,000 miles (near as dammit; Google Maps says it’s 1,930) to watch my kid for me when I had a difficult commitment. Her response has always been one of two things: either she’s thrilled to do it, or she wishes badly that she could but it’s just not possible. *Expecting* your mother to fly halfway across the country may be a bit entitled, but *asking* really isn’t, IMHO.
There seems to be this perception amongst many people that if you can’t take care of your child 100% by yourself, then you have no business giving birth. It’s a completely unrealistic expectation that’s been lived up to for exactly none of human history, but some people have it anyway, and it irritates me beyond belief.
What is a “weeaboo,” anyway?
@torch, I think all of the Brad-Jen comparisons are spot on, and might be a good way to phrase it with your over-dramatic friends as a way to point out their silliness and move on. When it comes up, just say “dude, we are not Brad and Jen, and you guys don’t need to act like US Weekly. Next topic…”
This one’s for Never: I read a book of humor essays by Cynthia Heimel called Sex Tips For Girls a few years ago, where she discussed how to get over the dread obsession with a man.
Her recommendation was to basically get to know yourself, in the most literal way. To sit down and make a list of everything you like/dislike and find out about yourself that way. Do you prefer beer or wine? Hockey or Football? Miles Davis or the Backstreet Boys? Cream puffs or Napoleons? You need to know what you like to be intresting, to yourself or others.
And the most important part is, quote: “Do this with AFFECTION or you’ll blow the whole thing. Think of yourself as a terrifically engrossing mystery novel.”
As I said, it’s a humor book, but that doesn’t mean the advice ain’t solid. You aren’t fighting an obsession with a particular guy, but with your self-hatred. Sit down and read the mystery novel of your life. If you love music A, love music A and be proud of it. List it on your Facebook page, find out if there’s a concert nearby, join an online discussion group, whatever.
Mind, this doesn’t mean that what you like is set in stone or can’t evolve or if you like A and so and so likes B you can never have a conversation ever. It means that most basic of all things, self-confidence and self-worth. The things you list as horrible crippling embarrassements, such as home schooling, may have been so but they aren’t JUST that. They’re part of the setup of your novel.
@Sars: whenever that Little Red Wagon of ANGRY t-shirt is ready, I’m ready to buy. I’m picturing it filled with swear-typography and cartoon-fight dust clouds.
@Sarah – what was the highest compliment your grandmother could bestow?
It is one of my fears about motherhood (which isn’t imminent but eventually possible) that I will be one of those who think their Special Snowflake is everyone’s Special Snowflake.
@Tashi: “Nice, easygoing disposition.”
@Cry: I feel like your reaction to these comments bodes well for both your therapy and your relationship with your mother.
@Diane: THANK YOU! Also…oh, my god. I cannot comprehend. And that is not to be judgmental. I am so far from being crafty that Stampin’ Up is literally incomphrehensible to me.
Cry, you sound like a nice person who is just tired and frustrated and overworked and heaven knows how hard it is to sort things out emotionally when you’ve got so much going on. Good for you for being willing to take both criticism and suggestions – and get yourself some rest, by the way!
@Never – I’m almost 30 and in a situation very similar to yours. I just started seeing a therapist (visit #2 was today) and she is trying to show me how ridiculous that negative self-talk is. How would you react if someone came up to you and a friend in a restaurant and started saying those things to your friend? You need to start treating yourself as an important person worth fighting for. I have a hard time bridging the gap between thinking about doing something and doing something (exercise, cleaning the bathroom, visiting friends, you name it). My goal this week is when I think about doing those things to make a statement “I can choose to do (or not do) this.” and then follow through with my choice, even if it’s only for a minute. Hopefully this helps. I highly recommend talking to a therapist to customize your goals.
Phew…I made it through that paragraph without any self-deprecating comments. Progress!
@Cry: Add me to the list of people who are impressed and admiring of your bravery and grace in responding to these comments.
@Jen S.: That was a TERRIFIC explanation of therapy and the need to keep going. (And your earlier comments were lovely, too.)
@Linda: As a non-kid-wanter (but happy visitor with other people’s kids), I found myself nodding in vigorous agreement as I read your first comment. Your last one actually made me tear up–so kind and lovely.
@upstairsgirl: You just described my (old, pre-therapy) relationship with my mother PERFECTLY. More vigorous nodding from me as I read–and it’s so nice to know that I am not the only person out there who had this kind of relationship.
I love The Vine.
@Kristen. Yes! Be your own best friend!
A friend taught me this: when I catch that inner negative voice I stop it, tell it “Shut up, you.” and then think of three things I like about myself. The hard part is catching that voice in the act, we’re so used to hearing it! But eventually, it shuts the hell up. It’s so awesomely nice. Best of luck!
‘Hey Cry: just wanted to say I’m super impressed with your reaction to all of these responses… I don’t think I’d have taken it with as much grace.’
I second, third, or whatever that. I was actually thinking yesterday that it’s pretty easy for me as a reader/commenter to rag on the folks brave enough to offer up their personal business for advice when I’m pretty positive I could never do it. Way to be big and take the unvarished smack down as ‘wow, I clearly need to do something here’ and not as ‘what a bunch of jerks!’
It’s pretty impossible to put everything in one letter, so I was actually glad to see your other comments that added explanation (like how your Mom’s love of therapy turned you off it- I get that, and I’m sure many others do, too. Extra good on you for getting past that to get help getting rid of the baggage).
I also see a whole lot of my (older) sister’s relationship with our Mom in you and wish she would be as self-aware as you are now being. I’ve kindly and carefully explained to her that she needs to ditch her red wagon (Sars = awesome) for a long time now, and she still insists on blaming Mom for everything, and especially just hating who our Mom is rather than accepting and getting over her faults. It’s really ridiculous and her daughter is almost 12 and already displaying the exact same tendancies. So, you’re right to think there’s a good chance of that happening with you and your kids. Definitely let that help motivate you.
Re: the kid thing- yeah, her using her puppy as a comparison and then ditching it because it was too tough to potty train would have rankled with me, too. Ugh, I hate when people think pets are disposable. I think it’s tough for parents to not (at least sometimes) see their kid as the Special Snowflake of the world and folks will give you a pass on it most of the time. I know I do for my friends and family, but my favorite people are the ones who ask me what’s up with my dogs (My fur kids really are skin kid-like. They even go to day care.) and then listen as attentively to me as I did to them. You’re allowed to tell the cute stories without feeling jerky. You just have to then be sure to ask your sister how the company is doing. Maybe even call her just to let her talk about that and then *not* bring up your own stuff a couple times. As the youngest of four and the only one without kids, I really dig it when my family calls just to ask me how things are in my life. Attention starved fourth born, blah, blah, psychobabble. Heh!
Oh, home-school: socially delaying children since forever.
I was home-schooled in 1st and 2nd grade, and it proper f@#$ed me up socially for a good long while. I was fine in kindergarten, but kids change a lot from K to 3rd grade, and when I went back to public school I was utterly unprepared for the a vicious pool of little sharks I was walking into. I spent the rest of elementary school and most of middle school as a social pariah. I still don’t feel like I’m on the same level socially as other people – I am terrible at making friends. So yeah, I will never be home-schooling any children I may have.
Also, @Cry, allow me to join the chorus of people who are super impressed with how well you’re taking this, and how willing you are to improve. I always wonder about the Vine letter writers that get harsher responses than they seem to expect. Anyway, good on ya. :)
@Angela, go for it, but re-reading it I think I was unnecessarily snotty. So I guess that reinforces the theme of the comments, which is that you can say really terrible things sometimes but be sorry and be a not-so-bad person. :) I blame my own Special Snowflake and her Special Screaming at 3am.
Re: @cry
I think @bex is getting some undue flack here. Maybe she came across a bit too strong, but I heard the message that @cry was overburdened as many first time mothers are, and she needs to make sure that she has the appropriate support in place. Ie if a nanny can lighten the load of a working mom, then do it! Asking for child care help is the most sane thing a mom can do sometimes. And does not at all mean you are a bad mom! It means that you understand your limits!
@Kristen and @Margaret in CO: Your advice on dealing with one’s inner critic sounds both AWESOME and eminently practical. I’m going to try it out(… any minute now).
Another order for the Little Red Wagon of ANGRY! t-shirt here.
Kat:
“Practice talking to people . . . [conversations] need to have a beginning and end, include topics you won’t have to teach, and not overshare private details.”
Can I say how much I loved this? As someone whose social skills are almost entirely learned rather than innate, it was a great relief to me that other people also had to actually learn these sorts of things… and a great relief also to learn that in fact they could be learned at all, and that I wasn’t doomed to a lifetime of paralysing awkwardness. A few tips/rules/suggestions like that can be really helpful, even if it feels weird that you need, like, the equivalent of grammar rules for social interactions that other people seem to know how to do naturally. And I also second the suggestion to just find stuff you like to do – that’s the best, least awkward way to meet people.
@Cry:
I know a very good psychiatrist in DC: Dr. Stanley J. Palumbo, 202-362-6004. My husband saw him for several years to discuss issues with his parents (short version: they crazy), and my husband and I had joint sessions in the months before our wedding to discuss family issues (short version: his parents hated me so my parents hated his parents). He is very well respected and really helped us. We had your basic insight-oriented therapy, where you try to figure out what is going on and concrete things you can do about it, but I know he is trained in psychoanalysis if you are interested in that. He also is quite well known for his work on dreaming and memory.
I wish you all the best.
RE: Inner Critic/Negative Self-Talk
I read advice somewhere that said “Don’t treat yourself worse than you would a stranger” or something. What I got out of it was that I had to be polite and courteous and kind to ME and it was one of those concepts that was “simple” but not necessarily “easy”. When I could stop and remind myself “wait, you wouldn’t say something that nasty to a co-worker, or an acquaintance, or whomever if they made the same silly mistake” etc, it made it a little bit easier.
Some GREAT advice out here on the Vine this week!
Thoughts for @cry:
I know exactly the sort of seemingly irrational anger you describe in your letter. However, my beef was always with my dad. I once got infuriated with him (to the point of shrieking) because he did not know my fave fruit, or something silly like that. I am much younger than 35, but I can see how these fights can continue. I could have cared less about the particulars of the fight at hand, I was indignant that he was an overly emotional man which made him a self-absorbed father. I just wanted him to factor me (even if it was on the level of apples) into the equation! This is not a fight that can ever be won, so I gave up on it…I can’t change him at the end of the day, and so I focus my time, attention and affection of people who are not so self-absorbed. It might work for you!
Also, I am a nanny for primarily working moms who want to have some “me” time…not a bad suggestion either if you can afford it. Everyone deserves a chance to relax.
@Cry,
I just want to say that I understand about not caring or wanting to hear about your mom’s new boyfriends at the end of a really long and stressful day. Especially when they come and go. I’m probably reading way too much of my own life into your letter, but I get it. Your parent is all excited about this new person in their life and wants you to bond and be all happy family.
Except that you don’t really feel like bonding or getting to know this new person because this new person probably won’t last and you have a very finite amount of time with your parent, and would prefer to spend the time on anything other than a person who will leave and never be heard of again. If you’re lucky.
As I said, I’m probably over-interpreting the situation, but my dad is not good at romantic relationships. He’s really good at meeting women and the beginning stuff, but he’s not very good at being in a relationship.
What this means is that my sister and I got introduced to an endless stream of women. We don’t see our dad very often, but when we did, there was this new person we’d have to do the introducing yourself conversation instead of actually being able to talk to our dad and catch up on how he is doing.
What we had to do was put a boundary on meeting new partners for my dad. After his last girlfriend, we (my sister and I) gently told our dad that we’d rather spend time with him instead of meeting his girlfriends. Now, he has to be with them for about a month or six weeks before we want to meet them. This has helped tremendously.
People sometimes think we are being mean when they find out, like my sister’s in-laws, but this is something we needed to do. This wasn’t about my dad not being with my mom. (they got divorced over 20 years ago. My mother is married to the most wonderful man you can imagine.) Everybody has moved on, including us kids. I’m only 27, and the oldest. My parents have been split up for my entire living memory. This is really not about them being divorced.
Cry, in your letter, you said that your mom was getting married to this guy. I still understand not really wanting to hear it. I really hope that this relationship lasts for your mom and works out but this is still a new relationship that you are expected to get all excited about with no notice. The last time this happened, your mom wanted to bring some stranger to a big family event. And then they broke up.
Some people may think I’m heartless about this, but people need to wait before they expect you to care about new partners. I have a beautiful picture of my dad from my wedding that I can’t use. Why? Because he’s with this chick that he broke up with like a week later. All I remember is that she was high maintenance, used to be a budweiser girl, and was probably crazy.
A quick wedding may make the relationship feel more real or important for your mom, but that doesn’t mean it will make the relationship more real or important for you.
Welllll, you “gently” explained this to your father, without screaming at him like a child after he’d cared for YOUR child all day, is the thing.
It does sound like Cry’s mom is clueless about how these relationships and their comings and goings come off to other people, and possibly about the relationships themselves; I drew that conclusion in my original response, and yes, some boundaries would help there, but there’s a fairly significant difference between “I don’t want to hi-howya-doin’ every man you date for three weeks” and “I don’t want to hear about these men at all, ever, and if I must, I will make a series of withering comments about how you’re a gold-digger.”
Kat:
“Practice talking to people . . . [conversations] need to have a beginning and end, include topics you won’t have to teach, and not overshare private details.”
Felicitythistle: Can I say how much I loved this? As someone whose social skills are almost entirely learned rather than innate, it was a great relief to me that other people also had to actually learn these sorts of things…
Word! I didn’t understand the importance of not oversharing until it was spelled out to me by a life coach I saw after being diagnosed with ADD. (I was 37 when I got this advice, to give you an idea of *my* level of social skill.)
The life coach put it very kindly. She advised me to go slowly in revealing personal information, and to do so in accordance with the level of intimacy you’ve achieved w/that person. Don’t go from 0 to 60 on the Getting-to-Know-You Road!