The Vine: July 23, 2003
Dear Sars,
In response to Curious and Unaffianced’s question about what happens to the ring when an engagement’s broken, I wanted to share my experience. My fiancé, Terrance, was engaged to another woman several years ago; when she broke it off, Ex reluctantly returned the ring. Terrance tried to sell it to a number of jewelers, but they all pretty much tried to screw him and offered about one-third of what he’d paid.
The good news, though, is that when Terrance bought my engagement ring, he was able to trade in Ex’s ring, for its full appraised value. But unless you just sit on the ring until you’re ready to buy another, you’re pretty much out of luck.
Ex’s ring was absolutely beautiful, but I gave Terrance a great big “ick” when he asked if I’d want it. He tried to pull that “I bought it for the woman I’m marrying, not for Ex specifically!” nonsense. No way. If it’s an heirloom, THAT’S a ring that your family intended for your future wife — no matter who she is — to wear. A ring that you’ve selected personally for a particular woman whom you ask to be your wife? A whole different story.
Yours truly,
Number Two
Hi Sars,
I happen to be the proud possessor of an engagement ring featuring a family heirloom (his family, not mine) diamond. It’s my understanding that in purchasing engagement rings, the real money is in the stone, not the setting. It’s also relatively easy to take a stone out of one setting and plop it into another. Many jewelry stores, in fact, will now sell a groom-to-be a diamond and put it in a very plain setting with the understanding that it is essentially a rental, and once he has surprised his fiancée with the proposal, they can come back together and pick out the setting she really likes.
My fiancé’s family gave him the diamond, which he then had reset in a setting that he thought I would like. This made it more personal, but still carried the spirit of my wearing a family heirloom jewel. If something were to happen and he eventually proposed to someone else, I imagine he would keep the stone (hell, it’s a nice rock, why buy a new one?) and have it reset again to make it a different ring. Again, New Chick would still be wearing the family stone, but it wouldn’t exactly be my old ring. Whether or not Tacky Tommy’s ring was a family heirloom (if I remember the letter correctly, it wasn’t), that’s probably the most cost-effective and least tacky route for him to have gone.
Sign me,
That’s The Most Time I’ve Ever Spent Thinking About A Freaking Accessory In My Whole Life
Hi Sars,
In response to Curious and Unaffianced:
There are many jewelry stores (e.g., Helzberg Diamonds, Cumberland Diamond Exchange, et cetera) that will always allow you to “trade” your purchases, regardless of when they are bought, especially if they contain diamonds. They will also, usually, give you at least what you paid for it, if not more, depending on the condition and the current value and/or styles.
I love that they do this, as I get bored easily and it’s nice to be able to wear a piece for a couple of years and then trade up to something new and even shinier that I can oooh and ahhh over (and, I must admit, hang my arm out the window to watch the sparklies as the sun hits the gems…yeah, I’m a bit pathetic, I know).
Oh, and by the way, recycling an engagement ring? Ick. Not sure about the heirloom question, but I also had the idea that it was okay to continue handing it down, but would, personally, H-A-T-E to receive a ring someone else wore.
Signed,
Gracie
Thanks for the responses (and to everyone else who wrote in).
It sounds like a former groom-to-be has a variety of options for returning or repurposing a ring; he’s not just stuck with it. And if he does wind up taking a loss on it, as Pineapple Girl wisely pointed out, he should probably just write that off as the “Tax On Love Gone Wrong.”
It’s interesting to look at the ways our society deals with incorporating traditions like The Engagement Ring into the world we live in now. As I researched yesterday, I found endless permutations of Ring Questions, including one dizzying primer on handling the chain of custody on a heirloom ring when the ring is intended to pass down through the male heirs but the male heir in question’s older sister just got engaged and wants the ring. (The answer, which I won’t dignify with a link, involved the phrase “man-to-man talk.” Ew.)
It’s also interesting that nobody who responded defended Tacky Tommy’s chosen course of action…but that no men responded. Probably not statistically meaningful, but interesting.
Hi Sars,
It’s very strange to read someone’s query, and have it match your situation completely. I went through everrything that Sick With Worry is going through (and I do mean everything — it’s kind of creepy, actually. This is one of those things that you’d prefer to be the only one, and save someone else from the drama). The one big difference is that I did tell my parents.
I’ve learned three big lessons that have helped me on my journey, and I wanted to share them with her.
Lesson #1: Quit worrying about if what happened to you was abusive enough. It was abuse, end of story. There’s no measurement for these things. I’ve talked to a lot of people that have been abused in horrible ways — they have all downplayed their situation. I think it’s a knee-jerk response that you think is keeping you from being a victim, but all it does is prevent you from getting help.
Lesson #2: And this one’s just my personal opinion, but I say tell your parents. I had never told my mother because she had been abused as a child by her father, and always told us as kids that was the one thing she wanted to protect us from. (Don’t you just love the irony?) But I wanted them to know who I really was, not who I was pretending to be. They responded better than I could have hoped. Convinced my brother to get therapy, and, more importantly, my behavior, both as an adult and as a child, began to make more sense to them. It’s hard, and they may not believe you, but if they don’t then that tells you something about them. And there is anger there that has to be confronted in order to heal.
Lesson #3: Do not rely on anyone else’s behavior or response for your healing and recovery. I always thought, “I’ll be better when…my brother apologizes, he is in therapy for the rest of his life, he admits his guilt, my parents disown him, et cetera.” It doesn’t work. It has to be all about you and what you need to do. And I guarantee what you don’t need to do is pretend to have the perfect relationship. That’s just poison — trust me, I’ve been there. You don’t owe him that. You have to figure out what you need, independent of the abuser’s behavior.
As for her brother wanting to have kids, again, I’m in the same situation. But it’s a little better because both my parents and my brother’s wife are aware of his past. This means it’s not my cross to bear alone. It shouldn’t be — I’m not responsible for what he did, he is. And I can’t be the one to save the world from him. But by telling other people, I’ve done what I can.
Been there, over that
Dear Been,
Thank you so much for writing in. Now and then, I answer a letter and I just don’t know if I’ve gotten anywhere close to the right thing to do, and I just have to hope a reader who knows what the hell he/she’s talking about weighs in to help me. Which you do, and did, so — thanks.
Dear Sars,
This may sound like a stupid question, but I haven’t been able to figure out the answer. How can I be a nice person? I think — and (I hope!) most people would agree — that I’m a good person, but I don’t think I’m particularly nice. People REALLY annoy me, and I haven’t been able to figure out a way to let it slide off my back. People tell me, “Oh, just ignore them,” but I don’t know how! Would that I could! I notice things that I wish that I wouldn’t and that lots of people say they don’t. The Errant Whistler, The Chronic Leg-Jiggler, The Girl Who Won’t Shut Up, the guy who says “drawlings” instead of “drawings” — I swear, there are times that I could happily choke these people.
I know that they aren’t deliberately trying to irritate me; I know this is almost entirely my own problem. My question is, what can I do about it? I just want to be Zen.
Thanks,
Need To Lower My Antenna
Dear Lower,
Start a website and take it out on your pets in prose.
Heh. Kidding — sort of. Okay, let’s give the rest of the readership a minute to stop laughing hysterically at the idea that I, Sarah, have any insights into becoming a nice person, shall we?
Everyone caught their breath? Good. Look, I feel you. Lots of things and people bug me, too; I would characterize myself as basically decent, and more or less polite, but nice…not part of my essential nature. I’ve accepted that and adopted a three-part strategy for dealing with it, as follows:
1. Accept that it is your nature to become irritated easily. Constantly reminding yourself that you “should” just let these things ride just makes you more irritated. Note: I don’t mean that you should feel free to yell at people. You shouldn’t. But if they bug, they bug.
2. Get proactive about your irritation. If it’s reasonable for you to ask an irritating person to stop irritating you, do so, politely. If it’s not reasonable, vent about it in a journal, online or on paper. Let that steam off. Inability to do anything about the irritation in question will, again, just make you more irritated.
3. Find something else to occupy your mind. Getting very busy at work has its own stresses, but I find that it makes other, non-work-related irritations seem insignificant. Volunteering helps the perspective, too.
Sometimes it works, sometimes not, but remember, even if you don’t have a wellspring of essential nicety to work from, the results are pretty much the same if you act nice. Which is what almost everyone else is doing anyway — acting. Just do the best you can.
Sars,
I’m thinking about doing something really stupid. Doing it intentionally, fully cognizant of how stupid it is, because I’m starting to think it can’t be any worse than the alternative. I’m thinking maybe a reality check from someone completely unconnected to the situation is in order.
There’s this guy. (Doesn’t it always start that way?) I met him three years ago when he first moved to my area, and the chemistry was instantaneous and powerful. It happened at a group dinner, from which we drifted away and spent quite some time talking. The next morning, mutual friends told me he’d said that if I asked him to tongue-wash my car, he’d do it. This thrilled me utterly, since I was thinking along similar lines, so I asked him out.
I’m not going to go into excruciating detail here; I’ll just say we went out a couple of times, and it was a little weird. The first date was great, the second somewhat awkward, and he made no attempt to touch me either time. We made plans for a third date, which got postponed a couple of times, and then…he called it off at the last minute, three nights in a row. First he had to work late, so could we do it tomorrow? Then he was too tired from helping a friend move, so could we do it tomorrow? Then he had to, get this, “go to Target for some light bulbs and a bathmat.”
I told him I hoped it was one hell of a great bathmat, because I certainly wasn’t going to let him step on me anymore. He got all huffy and said he couldn’t believe I was “breaking up” with him — which astounded me since I didn’t even think we were officially “going out” yet. He dropped out of the online community we’re both part of for a while, and that was that.
There was much discussion of him among my friends, who all agreed he was totally nuts. Another friend who dated him briefly a while before I met him came out of the woodwork and told me his flakiness and inattentiveness drove her nuts and made her think there was something wrong with her. And she said the whole time they were dating, even when they were having sex, he never gave her a “real” kiss. Classic avoidance of intimacy, yes? I reckoned I’d had a lucky escape, and would have forgotten about it…
Except that I couldn’t stop thinking about him. I don’t know what it is about this guy — I mean, yeah, he’s good-looking, he can write (I’m a sucker for a guy who can write), and the chemistry was incredible. And okay, I admit it, I have a long history of endless agonizing crushes on emotionally unavailable men. I thought I was over that, I really did.
But then, none of those men ever liked me back before. And this one did. I think he still does. When he reappeared in the community, he started flirting with me again like nothing had happened. And I couldn’t manage not to flirt back. And this went on for a couple of years, until finally, last fall, he asked me out again. And I went. The reasons behind that are complex but what it really comes down to is that I just wanted to. I knew better, I know better, I’m not stupid, I’m not naive. I just wanted to see him again so much, I didn’t really care about any of that.
And it was great. Really great. But he still didn’t try to touch me at all, and he said afterward, when I emailed and asked outright in a fit of desperation, that it wasn’t a date, and did I really think we’d last a week together after what happened last time? I said something mealy-mouthed and noncommittal.
And since then, the dance has continued. He’s hinted he’d ask me out again and then backed out at the last minute. He came to a small dinner party I threw and acted like he was waiting for the other guests to leave first, but eventually gave up — at which point the remaining guest said he got the impression that Mr. Intimacy-Issues was waiting for him to leave first and he hoped he wasn’t interfering with anything. Mutual friends online are all certain he’s still into me. He still flirts, and I still flirt back, feeling like a dumbass all the while.
So. Obviously the guy has intimacy issues that make social-phobic, holding- everyone-at-arm’s-length me look like Deepak Chopra. I’ve thought long and hard about this situation, because it’s obvious to me that I’m repeating an old, unhealthy pattern with my interest in him in the first place. And I’ve come to several conclusions.
One, I’m in no position to criticize anyone for being fucked up or having intimacy issues. Two, if anything’s going to happen here, I’m going to have to make the big move. Three — well, three is complicated. I’m only ever attracted to guys like this anyway. I’ve tried and tried to find any interest within me for other types, and it’s just not there. (And I’m 36. I’ve been trying a long time.) I’ve been alone for more than five years partly because the pickings have been slim anyway and partly because I’ve been avoiding making this mistake. My choices at this point seem to be either to resign myself to being alone, or to figure out how to get into a relationship with a guy who has intimacy issues, and how to make it work despite our both being total whack jobs.
Four: How much worse could I feel, at this point, realistically?
So the stupid thing I’m considering is actually pursuing a relationship. I’m thinking about asking him out on a date, very explicitly. No, get your mind out of the gutter; I just mean to actually say the words “Would you like to go out on a date with me?” I’m thinking about this even though everyone I know thinks it’s a stupid idea and that he’s a lost cause. They’re probably right — he probably is — but I just like him too much not to give it a chance at this point. Okay, he’s fucked up, I’m fucked up. We both know that. Maybe, if we both wanted it enough, we could make it work. And maybe we couldn’t.
But is it really such a horrifying prospect that it’s not even worth trying? Would it be “better” in some way for me to figuratively ram a stick up my ass, tell myself I deserve better, and spend the next five — or ten — or twenty years telling myself I’m too good to waste myself on whack jobs while I know perfectly well I’m a whack job too?
I’m just not sure. And I’m not sure whether all this ratiocination I’ve been doing is just a self-serving illusion I’ve built to justify doing what I want to do, or whether I’m making an informed decision based on a thorough weighing of the facts. So I figured I’d toss the tomato into your court. If nothing else, you’re a hell of a lot more sensible than most of my friends.
Yours,
Infatuation Lass
Dear Lass,
“How much worse could I feel, at this point, realistically?” Good question. You won’t like the answer.
The chemistry isn’t that powerful, or he’d have acted on it. He doesn’t really like you back; he’s just yanking your chain because you let him, because you’ve telegraphed as clearly as non-skywriting methods will allow that you don’t think you deserve better. I don’t see a “probably” here anywhere.
You’ve become obsessed with the guy because he’s unattainable. He’s rejected you over and over — he started out with some of the most threadbare excuses in the “I’m too big a pussy to come out and say I’m not into it” playbook, and then, when you still didn’t take the hint, he straight-up kiboshed it — and that fascinates you. I think it also comforts you, because it means you’ll never actually have to try a real relationship, with him or with anyone else, and risk becoming attached or take responsibility for your emotions. So, you mope around, dreaming of the day when he allows you to settle for him. And you need to stop that.
Of course a whack job can sit in judgment of other whack jobs, if the other whack jobs consistently make them feel like shit about themselves, which he is doing to you, because you permit it, because you think that’s the best you can do. It isn’t. “Neurotic” does not equal “second-class citizen.” It’s fine that you have issues, and it’s fine that you acknowledge them but don’t do anything to work through them, I guess, if that’s how you want to live. But the guy in question is a dead letter. You’ve wasted way too much time on him already.
“But –” No. Move on.
What is the correct usage of the term “begging the question”? I am pretty sure that I know how it is not supposed to be used, but I wouldn’t mind knowing how it should be used.
Asking a question
Dear Asking,
Ninety percent of the time I come across the phrase “begging the question,” it’s used incorrectly. It’s not synonymous with “doesn’t answer the question,” but that’s how most people use it.
Garner’s got my back here: “[B]egging the question does not mean ‘evading the issue’ or ‘inviting the obvious questions,’ as some mistakenly believe. The proper meaning of begging the question is ‘basing a conclusion on an assumption that is as much in need of proof or demonstration as the conclusion itself.’ The formal name for this logical fallacy is petitio principii.” (DMAU, 77.)
He gives a clearer example in The Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style, which I’ll quote here: “One might beg the question by saying, for example, that life begins at conception, which is defined as the beginning of life” (38). I’d have used a less politically charged sentence, but it’ll do; the point is that to beg a question is to fail to define the terms of that question, not to fail to answer it or to prompt more questions.
And on a related rhetorical-fallacy note, while I’ve got you all here…a “tautology” is a redundancy, not a logical lapse.
[7/23/03]
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette grammar rando the fam
