The Vine: June 10, 2009
Dear Sars,
“Publicly” or “publically”? My instinct says the latter is preferable, but I see the former (which I HATE) more and more in print and online media. Online dictionaries claim they’re synonymous. Am I being old-fashioned and snobbish about this?
Thanks,
I Should Probably Stop Being So Public[al]ly Curmudgeonly
Dear Not On My Account,
They both look a little off to me, somehow, but Garner says “publicly,” “not publically, is the adverb,” and the Chicago Manual 15th distinguishes from other adjectives ending in “-ic” that do take “-ally” as the suffix.So, “pedantic” becomes “pedantically,” but “public” becomes “publicly.”
It’s just one of those things that will always bug you, like the pronunciation of “bilious” does me, but “publicly” appears to be correct.
Hi Sars,
(Apologies if this has been addressed previously; I searched the archives but didn’t find anything.)
This has been driving me crazy for a few years, and I figured you would know, if anyone would:Why is the noun “realtor” frequently capitalized?As in, “I was talking to my Realtor, and…”
We don’t do that for any other profession (“John is a Doctor”) unless it’s used as a title (“This is Doctor John Smith”).Not doctor, not lawyer, not scientist, not butcher, baker, or candlestick maker, so what makes realtors so special?Is it some PR move by the industry to raise their status?I don’t have anything against realtors, but this proper-noun thing is really starting to grate on me.
I know, I need more hobbies.But I’m the sort of person who mentally copy-edits grocery-store signs, and to see this particular trend appearing pretty much everywhere I look makes me wonder if I missed a memo or something.If there’s a good reason for it, fine and dandy and I’ll shut up about it, but it just seems so random.
So, do you know if there’s a reason?And if not, have you also noticed this and does it bother you?
Thanks for humoring me,
Taking a Red Pencil to the Whole Darn World
Dear Red,
My initial instinct was to tell you that it’s a pretension of the industry in an attempt to raise its profile — which I think the National Association of Realtors is in fact doing, based on the number of radio ads I’ve heard for it lately, in which they pronounce the word “reel-uh-tor” ack ack ack there is no vowel after the L aaaack.
But as it turns out, “Realtor” is a service mark, which entitles it to capitalization; the principle is similar to that of Kleenex, which now tends to stand for all brands of facial tissue even though it’s a trademark.
It seems like the NAR is advocating capitalizing the entire word and including the registry mark, which I find excessive, as I do the initial capitalization, but it does seem as though they have grounds.That said, I don’t think it’s incorrect not to do it…yet.
If I were writing about a sign-on page, I’d hyphenate “sign-on.” And, if I were writing about signing on to a web application, I wouldn’t hyphenate. If I were writing about putting into place single sign-on for a product, I would be fairly confident about my punctuation.
Now…if I were to write a paper on this interesting functionality, I would find myself torn: “Single Sign-on” or “Single Sign On”? The first seems correct, but once someone said, “that looks odd,” I started waffling. I’ve looked at Garner’s and in dictionaries, but I’m feeling this is a gray area. What’s your opinion?
Sign on, sign on harvest moon
Dear Moon,
You said it yourself: “single sign-on” is correct.If you don’t include the hyphen, it’s a bit confusing — there’s a “single sign on”…what, exactly?Okay, most people will know what you mean, but we hyphenate phrases like this the way we do in order to clarify which words modify what.
You might want to capitalize it differently, because “Single Sign-on” does look a little odd.Try “Single Sign-On,” but either way, you’ll need the hyphen.
Tags: grammar
“in which they pronounce the word “reel-uh-tor” ack ack ack there is no vowel after the L aaaack.”
Thank you! It’s nice to know I’m not alone in feeling vertiginous outrage at this. Geez. Also, Red and I are clearly of the same, constantly irked tribe.
I’m not an American, but in Canada, the word REALTOR(R) is a trademark, owned by the Canadian Real Estate Association, and should be printed just like that, all caps with the registration mark after it. I presume the NAR owns their trademark as well, though they don’t own MLS(R) down there, while CREA owns that up in Canada as well.
When you’re not talking about someone who is an NAR member ( and thus a Realtor), you should call that person a “real estate agent.”
Why does the pronunciation of “bilious” bother you, Sars?
You can only be a Realtor if you are a card-carrying member of the National Association of Realtors. The NAR takes this fairly seriously, because Realtors adhere to the NAR Code of Ethics while regular old real estate licensees may or may not. (Also, Realtors pay a membership fee to NAR, which may be the more likely reason that NAR takes it seriously!)
It’s properly pronounced “bill-yus,” but the meaning is to do with bile, obviously, and because it only has the one L, it seems like it should be pronounced “bile-ee-us” instead.
I have to stand up for the real-uh-tor pronounciation. English has never been a language where we have strict pronounciation rules based on spelling, and regional variations of words shouldn’t be frowned upon. (Much as I hate W, I feel the same way about his pronounciation of nuk-uh-lur.)
Sandman, I’m in the same boat. Those commercials really grate on my nerves…which is too bad, because my realtor is about the nicest lady you’ll ever meet. And then I feel bad that I’m so irked.
The only ones who are required to include TM or SM or the R in a circle after a trademark or service mark are the trademark/service mark holders in their own material. As a journalist or blogger or shopping-list maker, you are NOT required to use these designations (nor do you have to use whatever gOOfY capitalization scheme they came up with for their WHatSIT). If they say you must, they are lying. Or at least misinformed.
On the pronunciation of “realtor” as “reel-uh-tor” or “reel-i-tor:” years ago I worked in a bank and we had a commercial account holder who was, amongst other things, a landlord. I swear at least half the rent checks he would deposit were made out to “Bob’s Reality,” not “Bob’s Realty.” It made me wonder where his tenants lived, if they had to pay rent to a separate “Reality.”
Oh, and Katie, while I generally appreciate regionalisms as much as the next guy, under no circumstances will I EVER cut W any slack on saying “nuke-yoo-ler.” Makes me grind my teeth just thinking about it.
The problem with the “only use the word Realtor, with a capital letter, for certain licensees” approach is that the vast majority of people simply have no idea that distinction exists. For good or for ill, that battle is lost. The word “realtor” has gone generic, and trying to put the genie back in the bottle is like trying to get people to stop calling it a Kleenex if it’s actually a Puffs facial tissue.
It’s sad, and I do understand why they like the distinction, and I’m sure they’re on solid legal ground (up to a point — up to a point, as someone else has pointed out, your responsibilities to someone else’s service mark are often not what they would like you to think they are), but if the NAR wants adherence to the special ethics rules that it has created to have the maximum possible benefit to consumers, my personal feeling is that they need to find a different way of conveying that than to try to restrict everyday use of the word “realtor.”
Right now, using the word “realtor” simply is not a good way to communicate to regular people that this person has been subjected to higher standards than other “real estate agents.” I’d love to see a better way developed to communicate that, so that people can more easily use those standards to choose a person to work for them.
Lori is right. To expand on that a bit, trademark and service mark holders are obligated to protect their mark, or else they may not receive court protection. That’s why you might see ads in a business mag by Xerox nagging you to use photocopier for the generic, because they might lose their trademark.
@Linda: I agree that, usage-wise, the horse is probably out of the barn…but on the other hand, by creating that usage distinction, they prompted a letter to me about it, which in turn sent me onto the internet to investigate, and I did learn that it’s a service mark, which I didn’t know before.
Will I adhere to it in my own usage? Probably not. But it is successful, from a brand standpoint, at making at least some people wonder what’s up with that and go ask/look it up. I wouldn’t rely on that sort of viral informational campaign, were I the NAR, but at least in these precincts, it did have the desired effect; we are discussing the distinction, even if only to say that it’s ineffective. Heh.
“pronounce the word “reel-uh-tor” ack ack ack there is no vowel after the L aaaack.”
“nuke-yoo-ler.” Makes me grind my teeth just thinking about it.”
Let’s go slap them, Sars. Slap them all silly.
Also, all the jewelers who run commercials for “JEW-LER-Y”
(Yes, I’m one of the Hater’s…hee.)
There’s a reason they are so anal on adding the service mark to “Realtor”:
“Once your company has created a trademark, it is essential to make sure you don’t lose your rights to this valuable asset through improper use. Whether or not a mark is registered, it is important to prevent it from becoming a generic or descriptive term and losing its proprietary significance. Who wants to own the next failed trademark: escalator, kerosene, thermos, cellophane, shredded wheat and aspirin.”
…according to some attorneys who seem to specialize in this sort of thing.
As a designer I come across this all the time, actually. Most companies have a style guide that lay these things out in enormous detail. Way back in the day, I worked for a sign shop that painted some local Burger King restaurant windows for a promotion, and I learned from their style guide that there is no such thing as a Whopper. No, there isn’t. It’s a Whopper ® Sandwich. Just writing “Whopper” on the window without the service mark or the “sandwich” would get the BK usage police after you, apparently.
Forgot to mention that Realtor is already in danger of becoming a generic term, whether they use their little mark or not. How many of us didn’t even know it was protected under a service mark? Only reason I knew is by virtue of their own promotions.
Reel-uh-tor. Yeah – bugs me too. I’m down in Texas and another pronunciation that bugs me is comfterble. Instead of comfortable. Is that just here? I’m from here and it seems so ass-backward. How does a Yank say it? :)
English may have inconsistent rules on pronunciation, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any; I can’t think of a case right now where syllables can be added without causing some confusion, if not consternation. Isn’t it also an oversimplification to call pronunciations like “real-uh-tor” and “nucular” regionalisms? I think a pronunciation has to be at least somewhat consistent within a distinct area to qualify as a regionalism, pretty much by definition. I don’t think either of these variations qualifies. I think they’re both widespread, but not fully accepted anywhere. All this just makes me a prescriptivist, I suppose. (See above, re: “irked.”) Do you think it would catch on if I started a service mark of the term “Orthoepist”?
I tolerate regional pronunciations, but I don’t believe “reel-uh-tor” remotely qualifies. You could live anywhere English is spoken and have a hazy understanding (and thus execution) of the order of sounds that make up a particular word, and the incorrect pronounciation of this one seems widespread with no particular pattern. It’s no more a regional alternative than when someone looks at my last name, which ends in a German “-nig,” and mispronounces it to end with “-ing.”
One that bothers me still more is “jewelry.” The “l” comes after the “e.” Thus, it can never be “jew-luh-ree.” I never hear anyone screw up “jewel.” No one ever says, “I found a chest containing precious jew-luhs” or “I have tickets to see Jew-luh perform.” Why does the addition of that tiny “-ry” defeat so many speakers, including distinguished screen actors?
It’s no more a regional alternative than when someone looks at my last name, which ends in a German “-nig,” and mispronounces it to end with “-ing.”
As it happens, people do the reverse to “Bunting” more than occasionally. I’ve been called out of a waiting room with “Miss…Buntnig?” a bunch of times. It’s not bothersome, really, although I wonder how a name that easy to sight-read gets mangled as often as it does — and always to a form more difficult to say than the correct one. “Buntnig” is a mouthful.
I have always understood that NAR pushes the use of Realtor to refer only to their members in part to attempt to maintain the trademark. I’m no intellectual property lawyer, but I think their goal is not necessarily to get the general public to follow their lead, but to show they are continuing to do what they can to maintain a difference in meaning. I think if they acquiesce to the word describing a generic category, they are more likely to lose the trademark.
The tongue gymnastics required to produce the ‘L’ and ‘R’ sounds are complicated and difficult, which is why a lot of words with ‘L’ and ‘R’ sounds in them get so messed up when people speak. It seems there is a tendency to put some kind of sound after an L sound re-sets the tongue (so to speak), which is how you get real-uh-tor.
The great, great, great majority of people in this world do not enunciate enough, and that’s how these sloppy pronunciations happen. Think of your hearing impaired friends (Hi!), who would love you SO MUCH MORE if you’d just enunciate! I’m looking at the entire state of New Jersey (where I live) and much of the South (where my people are from).
To me, “regionalism” is calling a box of mac-n-cheese “Kraft dinner” or the various subs/po boys/hoagie iterations. One person sees a collection of meats, breads, and cheeses and calls it one thing and someone else calls it another thing – it doesn’t change the thing itself.
But “new-cue-ler” and “new-clee-er” are not two different things. I think it’s because people can’t/won’t/don’t bother learning to say the word properly – and because yes, dipthongs are haaaarrrddd. Trust me, I live in the state where our NFL “athaletes” are regularly called “Coats.” And while many people call them “warshing machines” it doesn’t make the pronunciation *correct*.
I mean, if everyone around you pronounces it the same way and it makes you feel better to call it a “regionalism” by all means, get on with your bad selves, but don’t be surprised when others look at you funny because they think you don’t know proper English.
Margaret in CO and Todd:
If you come from the U.K. or Ireland (as I do), the standard spelling is jewellery. That’s why I pronounce it with the extra syllable. Perhaps the distinguished screen actors you mention are from my side of the Atlantic?
The ‘bile/bilious’ alternation looks like it might be part of a pattern that affects certain words of English (largely words that came in from French), known as Trisyllabic Laxing or Trisyllabic Shortening. Basically, a “long” vowel in a base word gets converted into a related “short” vowel when a suffix is added that leads to a particular stress pattern. Famous examples are ‘divine/divinity/ and ‘sane/sanity’.
Now I’m trying and failing to think of more cases with ‘-ious,’ and this will keep me up all night. Heh.
My last name is “Case” – a standard first grade word. Still people pronounce it “Chase”. I just assume that some people can’t appreciate the simplicity.
The horse may be out of the barn with Realtor, but as mentioned above the legal efforts are to stop the farm down the road calling their cow a horse as well and then claiming in court that the horse owner didn’t do enough to protect the name (was it Asprin that started out a product name but is now a generic name?)
Plus, I think the little steps approach has some impact. I have, on occasions, unthinkingly used product names generically in a national newspaper. A nicely worded legal letter from say the Rollerblader or Lycra people has clarified that the generic term is in-line skates and, well, whatever the hell Lycra is (spandex? elasticated synthetic material?) and I have complied. Which can be a little irritating when the product name is sooooo simple and there’s no elegant generic one.
Can I just say I am ROTFL at “Buntnig”?!? My husband is, at this moment, coming downstairs to see why I’m laughing!! Bwahahaha!!
‘Bilious’ has never bugged me before. It’s going to now. Cheers Sars….
My journalism friends and I get no end of fun out of REALTOR. We dream up epic battles between REALTORS and paginators, which is the official name for the person who lays out your newspaper page. REALTOR CRUSH! PAGINATOR SMASH!
“reel-uh-tor”
Oh, I just go ‘nuc-u-lar’ when I hear that!
@Bernard: No, the specific actors who came to mind were from my side of the pond.
However, I did a few minutes of research on “jewelry” and “jewellery,” including a site with UK and US audio samples, as well as a citation in Cambridge Advanced Learner’s (http://tinyurl.com/nsna68). The consensus seems to be that whichever spelling is used, the standard pronunciation does not vary. That is, the pronunciation should not — in the words of Wiktionary — “give way to the Cockney rhyming slang ‘tomfoolery’.”
I used to temp at the California Association of Realtors, and the lady I worked for would pronounce it “re-eel-ah-tor”. HATE.
I work at a POWER COMPANY, and am the child of a physicist. The number of employees at my firm who are capable of correctly pronouncing the word nuclear comes, so far in my experience, to myself-plus-zero. I’m not being colorful here; this is something I’ve paid minute attention to – and the dadgum CEO won’t even do it right.
It chafes my nips something serious, and is one of only two things about this company which makes me feel the need to hurt tiny, adorable puppies. Like really seek them out and find creative ways to torture them.
Other than that, though, I count this job a copious blessing, for which I try to be grateful every day. Every day I don’t hear that mangle-ation.
Which is suprisingly often, thank Maud.
@Bernard…Jewellery sounds more expensive than plain ol’ jewelry :-) )
My compliments on that Cockney rhyming slang, by the way. I love that stuff! So clever! How else would “Peggy” become a nickname for “Margaret?”
(If there’s anyone else out there with a big Cockney fetish: http://tinyurl.com/49h5uu )
@D – STEP AWAY FROM THE PUPPIES!!!! I don’t know how you stand it. Slap ’em silly, I say!!!!
@D (I meant slap the coworkers & CEO, not the puppies!)
Hmmm, Red’s pronounciation question got me thinking about something. Does anyone here use a mispronounciation deliberately even though they know the right way to say it? No, I am not talking about realtor and nuclear because……no. Not going to happen. Ever. I am not even talking about jewellery although I have checked whether I say that word correctly so often in my head now I’ve confused myself.
I do this specifically in regards to the letter ‘h’. My mother was a stickler for pronunciation (still is actually), then it seemed all the teachers at the schools I went too were as well, so it was ‘aitch’ all the way. There are a number of ‘h’s in my name so this comes up quite a bit.
Recently though, I’ve found myself giving up the fight on this one because I am sick of having to repeat myself when spelling out my name to someone. Most people just don’t seem to get the ‘aitch’, only the ‘Haitch’. I cringe everytime I use it. I cringe typing it. To add to my confusion about the matter, just recently I was accused of being ‘elitist’ for my ‘aitch’ pronunciation. Is this some new weird phenomenon I haven’t caught onto? Could be completely possible considering my way towards grumpy old curmudgeonhood.
Then again, maybe I am getting a bit wobbly when I should be digging my heels in?
I have a friend who works at a department store selling “jury”. Of course, she also used to call me “Shawn-in”… and that sound you hear is my teeth grinding!
My problem is with ‘erudite.’ What’s with the ‘ehr-ee-yoo-dyte’ pronunciation?!? I could allow an ‘ehr-yoo-dyte’ under the long u rule, which my New World Collegiate also supports, but I’m not adding another syllable. And I will fight you.
Also, all the jewelers who run commercials for “JEW-LER-Y”
This used to bug me…then I moved south. CHJUR-eee (like “jury” but with a harder start) was the only recognized pronuncation and my attempts to model any other got me labeled “uppity”. I learned to deal with it and have heard it that way in various other locations since, but it still sometimes makes me want to scream, “There’s no judge here!”
@D You have my sympathy. Hubby’s a nuclear engineer, working a D.O.D. job. He and his co-workers are very conscious (and snobby) about saying it correctly…but the majority of the sailors aren’t. I’ve overheard, “There IS no Nuke-U-ler widget…are you sure you don’t mean the nuclear widget?”
Hee. Duly noted, Margaret. (And … I can’t stand it …)
Dumpster is supposed to be capitalized too. F*ck that noise.
One of my favorite movie moments of all time lies hidden in the “Get Smart” remake. When one of the President’s aides groaned, “It’s pronounced NU-CLEE-AR,” I think I actually burst into applause in the theater.
What’s with the ‘ehr-ee-yoo-dyte’ pronunciation?!?
Let’s just pronounce it “ehr-oo-dih-tay,” to rhyme with “crudite.” Hee.
I once saw a handwritten notice on a bulletin board advertising “jewry” for sale. Years later, I’m still not sure what exactly that person was selling, but I shudder to think….
I understand the business with NAR trying to maintain the right to use their mark; I’m not mad about it. But when a REALTOR(R) tells me that it’s not really appropriate for me to call a real estate agent a REALTOR(R) unless that person is a REALTOR(R), then I get kind of irritated. Like, I get it that they have to maintain their mark, but there is also a degree to which Sarah is right that for some people — SOME, SOME! — it exactly is the kind of snooty business that makes lawyers demand to be called “Esq.”
I will get out of this before I open the debate about which PhDs do and don’t come off like weirdos when they want to be called “Doctor.”
Does anyone here use a mispronounciation deliberately even though they know the right way to say it?
Usually only for comic effect. For instance: “What a maroon!” never has anything to do with dark red.
I solve that problem by just avoiding the word “realtor.” It saves a couple of syllables, sure, but it doesn’t actually fill a hole in the language. And I think it’s kind of an ugly word.
Ash, I don’t understand what you’re saying about “H.” Is it how people are pronouncing the letter in a word, or are you hearing people pronounce the name of the letter as “haitch?” Because I’ve ony heard the latter when someone is doing a bad Cockney accent.
The ‘annoying’ pronounciations of jewellery and comfortable are standard British English ones (everyday British English, not that spoken by ‘English’ characters in US sitcoms). We don’t use the word realtor with or without its capital R (ours are estate agents and if they tried to capitalise it and trademark it they’d be a laughing stock). Those cheques made out to ‘Bob’s Reality’ are priceless!
@ Linda – Ooh, the “Esq.” is exactly like “Realtor(R),” in that only attorneys who have taken and passed a bar exam, paid for their license, and maintained their good standing in their profession get to put the Esq. behind their names. (Well, it’s not a law or anything, it’s more an informal custom of the profession.) If someone says s/he is an attorney but doesn’t put the Esq. behind her/his name, s/he may not be licensed and might not be the person to hire if you want quality representation. Because trust me, there are a lot of twits out there that managed to graduate from a law school somewhere but were never able to pass a bar exam, and you will notice the difference when they represent you. And s/he will be breaking the law if s/he does.
So, it’s not “snooty” per se, it’s really more like quality control or consumer protection.