The Vine: June 11, 2008
Dear Sars,
After three and a half years of a mostly great relationship, I invited my boyfriend to move in. I truly believe I was cool about it, didn’t make any ultimatums, was generally good-natured about the fact that I like going to sleep beside him, like waking up beside him, and generally prefer being in his company to being without it.
His response? He said he “could keep a few things in a drawer.”
Having run this by Ames, my best friend, we leave it to you to decide:
Should I give him the silverware drawer, or tell him he can hang things on that wooden knob he finds in the bed every morning?
Not in MY drawers!
Dear Draw,
Maybe you should have given him some ultimatums, in the end, if the only response you really wanted was “yes, I’ll move in.”You know what I’m saying?The possibility exists that, because you played it excessively cool, he thinks it doesn’t mean all that much to you, and that’s how he reacted to it — coolly.
Not that I’m blaming you for his reaction; the point is that he doesn’t want to move in, really.What I’m trying to figure out is whether that’s what you want — I mean, you seem offended by his response, but on the other hand, you kept it so cazh, and after three and a half years it does seem like one of you would have an idea about where you see this relationship ending up.
Decide what you want.If you want the relationship to move forward to a deeper, more formal commitment, you need to say that, in so many words.Do not assume that he’s already told you what he wants; “a few things in a drawer” may be it and it may not, but again, after three and a half years, you should be able to speak frankly to each other about these things, at least once in a while.Do so.Figure out whether you’re okay with keeping it to separate domiciles; figure out if he’s okay with moving the ball forward, and if so, figure out when.But get an answer, and if it’s not one you can live with, move on.You’ve had almost a presidential term together; that’s enough time for both of you to gauge whether you want to get married, and if one of you wants that and the other one doesn’t, game over.
Sars,
I’ve gotten into this debate too many times and I need an authoritative voice to put an end to it:is the expression “forever hold your peace” or “forever hold your piece.”
Forever Holding Something
The latter has some amusing Mafia-parody mental imagery surrounding it, but it’s “forever hold your peace.”The confusion no doubt stems from the expressions “to say one’s piece” and “giving someone a piece of one’s mind,” but at a wedding, it’s peace you’re holding.
Hi Sars,
I’m trying to decide whether to tell a casual friend her husband is cheating on her.
Z’s husband Y is a charmer and I had a crush on him for years. We’ve occasionally hooked up but mostly flirted, me using him as a distraction between my relationships. I enjoyed the attention and the fantasy of us getting together, because I always thought Z and Y were an odd couple — very different personality-wise. This continued while Z and Y were dating, engaged, and married. He told me I was not the only “other woman.” Y’s assholeness towards Z finally turned me off and I ended it soon after their marriage.
A couple of years pass, and I call Y, believing we could be friends and I was over the attraction. Found out I wasn’t, initially. Y claimed he was completely “miserable” in his marriage. Not too miserable to do the grown-up thing and leave, though. We go back into the same pattern, and hook up once. I get annoyed that I fell for his woe-is-me act and my “hey, maybe this time we’ll get together!” knee-jerk reaction. I tell Y the sexual stuff must stop, but still wanted to be friends. Our friendship half-heartedly limps along for a short while, and Y implies he’s cheating on Z with someone else. I realize I’m sorry I reconnected with such a major jerk, told him so, and told him to get lost.
I’ve known Z for as long as I’ve known Y. Z and I were in a club together a while back, and bump into each other when that group of friends gets together. I know part of the reason I want to tell her is my own need to feel better — making Y miserable for real would feel good, I won’t lie about that. And I feel I should’ve said something before she married the guy or at least before she had his kid. (Her knowing might not have changed anything, but at least someone gave her a heads up, you know?) But if I felt those were the ONLY reasons I wanted to tell her — revenge and guilt — then I wouldn’t do it.
Hearing your husband cheats on you from the person he did (some) of his cheating with and from someone you know to boot would be horrible and I don’t want to cause pain just to make myself feel better. If I didn’t know Z I’d walk away and be done with it, but I feel she has the right to know who she married, and because I do have a relationship with her and NOT telling her doesn’t feel like the right thing to do either, even if it means losing this circle of friends.
I’m good friends with a closer friend of hers, and have thought of telling him to see if he thought Z would want to know, but I hesitate to put him on the spot, because he’s also friends with Y.
And if you think I should say something, how should I do it? I can’t prove anything. Y knows how to cover his tracks well so I don’t have evidence of our relationship or his other dalliances. So I don’t think she’s likely to believe me.
So should I say anything or no? And if so, how? Should it come from me or a more “neutral” friend? Or tell Y to do the right thing or I’ll tell Z about us?
Either way, I’m done with married men
Dear About Time, I’d Say,
You aren’t friends with Z.Yeah, you “know” her from this club thing, but you don’t say you’re friends; you don’t talk about any of her likeable qualities.That’s fine, it is what it is, but if you really cared about Z, you’d have stopped yourself from making, and repeating, a mistake that might cause her pain, or you’d have told her years ago before she tied herself to Y legally and had his child.You didn’t.You put yourself first.
I’ve made my stance on this kind of situation clear enough in the past; the person who made the commitment bears the primary responsibility to that commitment, in my opinion, and not everyone shares that opinion, but I do think that red-lettering the third party misses the point, basically.You made a mistake getting bound up with Y, but people make mistakes and the bulk of the blame for disrespecting Z lies with him.That said, the third party should, at the least, understand that his/her presence in the relationship is not a positive, not welcomed, and not license to give input or interfere beyond the rather significant dent in the relationship that the cheater has decided to make.
You admit that you wouldn’t mind seeing this blow up in Y’s face, so you’re aware of that, anyway, but…don’t pretend to care about Z and telling her “what kind of man she married.”Come on.That’s disingenuous and too much, too late, and I think you know it.What’s really going on here is that you can’t let go of the drama the triad generates, the feeling that you’re involved somehow, that you have this power over Y (and Z, which you may have enjoyed, at least unconsciously, because Y was willing to cuckold her even after she had his child) (if that’s in fact the timeline; forgive me if I’m confused on the fine points).Ignorance is bliss, if Z is in fact ignorant, so if you really cared about her, you’d stay far away from them both and let her continue thinking…whatever it is she thinks, which isn’t your business because, again, you’re not friends.Your need to unburden yourself is not actually her problem; you can find a therapist for that, and would probably benefit from doing so.
“Well, I’d want to know.”Trust me, sister, no you wouldn’t.And this really isn’t about you anymore.And that’s a good thing.No good can come of you still involving yourself in these people’s lives, so if she asks you a direct question, you can answer it honestly, but otherwise, when you see her socially, make polite conversation for five minutes and then go elsewhere.Consider your part in this marriage drama concluded, and leave the stage.
Tags: boys (and girls) grammar
I would have a lot to say to ” … Married Men,” most of it not nearly as polite as what Sars said. But since she was already more diplomatic and appropriate than I could be, I’ll add only one thing:
Z already knows.
It comes down to respect. Yes, Y is the one who is primarily responsible. However, Y and Z have made a public commitment to lives their lives in a certain way, which comes with both privileges and obligations. Y’s transgression is violative; he is violating his vows. In contrast, “…Married Men” is actively disrespecting Z, by aiding and abetting in mocking the way in which she was living her life. It’s different from what Y did, but it’s something more than just being a negative influence on the marriage.
That said, I think Sars’ advice about seeing a therapist shouldn’t be ignored. I get the feeling based on her letter that “…Married Men” has a sense of entitlement that probably comes out in an extremely destructive way in her relationships with other people. I don’t want to do the Scarlet Letter thing, but given that this is a repeated thing and not a one-time mistake, it’s something that “…Married Men” needs to confront about herself.
I’m not one to red-letter the other party. The person who took the vows is the one breaking the vows. If you want to be with a married man, knowing that he is married and is not likely to leave his wife for you, that’s your business and you’ve done nothing wrong.
That being said, “…Married Men” should carefully examine her motivations for wanting to tell. Does she hope Y will come to her after Z throws him out? Will she be disappointed if Z holds onto her man despite his transgressions? What if Y walks away from both? It sounds like he’s got options — and he will be furious at the person who toppled the house of cards.
“…Married Men” does not sound interested in helping Z see the light about her dog of a husband. “…Married Men” wants Y for herself. Which is a fine thing to want, but totally not what this situation is about. He’s married, you know he’s married, he’s not leaving his wife for you. Get over that and leave his wife out of it.
There is a tremendous difference in hearing that your spouse is cheating or other life imploding information from a true friend – defined as someone who truly knows and loves you and thus is not cheating with your spouse on you; and hearing it from an acquaintance or the other woman herself. It’s a hellish thing to hear and/or discuss and at least a true friend can provide real support in the aftermath and hopefully a hell of a lot of haagen daz. Calling yourself Z’s friend is beyond a stretch at this point and being the one to tell her has a sadistic quality to it which will in no way improve things for her.
The bulk of the responsibility lies with him but I agree with Sars that it’s about time you understood you should stay away from married/involved men and “understand that his/her presence in the relationship is not a positive, not welcomed, and not license to give input or interfere “.
Leave them both alone and don’t be dragging other friends/acquaintances in either – it won’t assuage your guilt or unsully your involvement.
I think the part that got me in “Married Men” is the “I tell Y the sexual stuff must stop, but still wanted to be friends.”
Like @MrsHaley, I wouldn’t have been nearly as polite as Sars, and I totally call bullshit on the above line. You DON’T want to be friends with this guy, you’ve NEVER been friends with this guy–you two fuck each other. It’s what you do. It’s why you got back in touch with him (“I call Y, believing we could be friends and I was over the attraction. Found out I wasn’t”); you told yourself you were over the sexual attraction in order to give yourself permission to get back in touch with him. And then you fell right back into the same pattern. Because it’s WHAT YOU DO.
Sars is dead right, for all her tact: you need to get the hell out of BOTH X and Y’s lives, and you really need to talk to a therapist. And I don’t say that out of anything particularly judgmental–I used to be Ms. Other Woman myself. I know exactly why you’re doing what you’re doing, because I did it a dozen times myself. And I didn’t stop until I started seeing someone professionally. You’ll learn a lot about why you’re doing what you’re doing.
You can have “I had sex with him for years while he was dating her, engaged to her, married to her, and having a baby with her, and I only ended it (twice!) after I found out (twice!) that he was cheating on me with ADDITIONAL people other than his wife, without which revelation (both times!) I would probably be in bed with him right now.”
Or you can have “I truly care that she not live in a marriage in which she is being deceived.”
You cannot, however, have both.
It’s really hard to admit to yourself that you’re a slimy piece of excrement. It’s much easier to tell yourself that the married man you knowingly slept with repeatedly for years is the slimy piece of excrement. The good news, “Done,” is that you don’t have to remain this way forever. Figure out your own issues with a therapist and butt out of this couple’s life. Stay away from the married or otherwise entangled men. I have been there in a different way. I cheated on my husband. I truly was a slimy piece of excrement. I am so glad that one of my “friends” (in Done’s case, that label is a lie, as we’ve already established) didn’t tell my husband. Eventually, *I* told him, long after it was over, and right before we were going to start trying to have a child. I realized that I didn’t want to tie him forever to me with offspring when I had cheated on him and he didn’t know I had. I wanted to give him the chance to leave me if he was going to leave me, before we dragged an innocent kid into the mix. I desperately hoped he would forgive me, and amazingly and thankfully he did, with help (couples therapy and individual counseling for both of us). I am so lucky he DID decide to stay with me and work it out. I really didn’t deserve it, but I am so damn grateful. I am so glad I had the opportunity to get my sh!t figured out and could come to him myself and fess up. Not to clear my guilty conscience, because that was my burden to carry – I made my bed and the guilt burden was my due – but because we were about to try to get pregnant and I didn’t want my husband or the child to suffer because of my past lies and deviousness. My story has a happy ending. If (Allegedly) Done With Married Men (or her male equivalent, thank god there’s probably no such thing as a man with that kind of drama inclination!) had been involved in my story, we wouldn’t have had the time and space and opportunity for us to get where we got. Oh, and the story has a happy ending. Therapy was the best thing ever for us, we did work things out, he chose to forgive me and renews that choice every day because my past infidelity never goes away, even though it was years ago. It happened and it can’t be erased. But we stuck together and we both work on stuff. We did have kids. We do have an amazing marriage now. The kids are wonderful. I am so thankful and though I don’t let myself off the hook for being a lying, sneaking piece of excrement, I am happy to say that I was FORMERLY a lying, sneaking piece of excrement, and I’m now a well-adjusted, much more mature, clear-communicating, stable, wife and mother. I hope for Z’s sake and her kids’ sake, that Y will get smacked upside the head by a 2×4 and will wake up and decide to work on his issues and recommit to his marriage. It absolutely sucks to do this to your partner, but it’s even more horrible to put your kids at risk of this humiliation, divorce, etc. Ass#ole. The whole thing just makes me sad/sick. Too bad it’s so common. Good comments. Sorry this is so long.
GAAAAH, what Linda just said. Dear Lord in heaven.
I’ve been a kid in a marriage almost destroyed by adultery. I’ve been a third party. I’ve seen my sister’s first marriage destroyed. In every case, the married person who strayed was primarily to blame, but without an accessory, there would have been no straying.
When I was the other woman, I realized that there was, in reality, no enjoyment; there was simply guilt, and shame, and the longing that comes from knowing there’s no future in it, and the understanding that if he cheated with me, he’d cheat ON me. So MM is essentially trying to get Sars to rubberstamp her approval on an utterly self-serving, vicious attempt to break up Z’s home once and for all. And as someone said above, Z knows. How she deals with it–and not dealing with it is for now at least an option–is her business, not MM’s, no matter how impatient MM may be to see the whole thing blow up.
Had my dad’s skank tried to step in, portraying herself as a friend and trying to “advise”my mom about her marriage, I do believe my mom would now be in Death Row. I’d probably be in the next cell.
Actually, on re-reading, my leap from one thing to another in the second paragraph above makes no sense. It did in my head, but never mind. Apologies.
Linda: More words than the dictionary on that. She could be this woman’s friend OR her hubands sex toy and she already made her choice on that.
I do however think that she should tell Z about her husband’s cheating. Just put yourself in Z’s shoes for a minute. If you are going to hear about your husband cheating, wouldn’t it be nice to have something right there to punch?
The juxtaposition of “forever hold your peace” and Done’s letter is so perfect.
Sars, that isn’t an accident, is it?
So, Drawers — you’ve been dating over three years and he doesn’t already have a few things in a drawer at your place? That doesn’t sound like a relationship that’s ready for cohabitation.
Well, I feel compelled to concur with many previous commenters about Y and Z. Especially Linda’s take on it. You don’t get to be both the cheater and the “friend” to the cheated on. And as Jaybird says, if he cheated on one partner he will cheat on another. I knew a couple that the man cheated on his wife and married(!) the female he cheated on her with. The last time I saw them he hit on me the minute he was away from the newer wife. And I had to smile evilly at Stormy’s suggestion that “Done With” would make a great punching bag.
I must say, I liked The Vine much better before comments opened up, and people started shooting off their ignorant mouths. Punching bags? Slimy piece of excrement?
…last time I ever read this site.
Mnerva: Good to see its being taken in the spirit it was intended.
Reading the comments isn’t a requirement; you won’t be tested on them. Nor is The Vine the whole site, but: take care.
I like Married Men’s claim that it was “Y’s assholishness towards Z” that made her break it off the first time. Of course, it’s sheerly concern for his poor cuckolded wife that made you angry, Married Men, not poutiness over the fact that a married man who would happily cheat on his wife for years would also cheat on his bit on the side just as freely.
Speaking of Married, who else here strongly suspects that she and “Syne” are one and the same?
Although I agree with Sars’ (and everyone else’s) take on this situation, can I just say one thing: Don’t assume that Y knows. *I* didn’t know. My ex-husband cheated on me off and on during the entire course of our marriage, including before, during, and after my pregnancy, with the woman to whom he’s now married. And I did not know. I was even ON THE LOOKOUT, because my *first* husband had also cheated, so I was a little over-attuned to signs of infidelity, and I. Did. Not. Know.
Our friends knew. My neighbors knew. My mother knew, and every single one of them assumed that I also knew. I didn’t. In retrospect, I probably SHOULD have, but he was very good at covering his tracks and having (seemingly) perfectly valid excuses – and alibis, witnesses, corroborators – for anything that I might ever question.
I consider myself very lucky that I didn’t come away from that marriage with herpes or HIV.
In this case I agree that the author’s motives are suspect and she’s not the person who should tell, but to others in different situations wondering if they should tell: Don’t assume s/he knows, even if it seems obvious to you. People who like to lie and cheat are, almost by definition, good at lying, good at cheating without getting caught.
For what it’s worth: I haven’t been a TN reader for very long, but I very much enjoy the comments posted on The Vine. I find them intelligent, thought provoking, and respectfully stated. They are the reason I continue to visit past Vine postings. And I took “slimy piece of excrement” as a comment largely directed at Formerly Unfaithful’s former self, as opposed to any kind of random insult towards “Done.”
On topic: While I agree with those who have said that since vows of commitment were made between married partners and not third parties the responsibility of fidelity (and/or blame for infidelity) lies more with the married man then it does the woman with whom he cheats, I personally find her no less reprehensible. As a single woman, I would no more get involved with a man who was married (or engaged, or in a relationship with someone else), then I would gouge out my own eye. Attraction happens, yes. But the decision of whether or not to act on said attraction is not something to which we are slaves. If nothing else, as women, we should respect each other enough not to go after each other’s men.
In the case of “Done,” I think some serious self reflection and/or therapy would be advised. Not only do I agree her motives about being Z’s “friend” are delusional, it doesn’t sound like she’s very well grounded in a set of values of her own.
These comments are a lot more judgmental than I expected. Maybe it’s just that I’ve never been cheated on (…as far as I know).
“If nothing else, as women, we should respect each other enough not to go after each other’s men.”
I also hold third parties responsible for their own involvement, but you lose me here. I don’t expect more of women — in this or any other context — than I expect of men. To me, whatever is owed to a married person as far as not having sex with her husband is owed to her as a person, based on the general obligation not to knowingly wreak havoc on other people’s lives if you can help it. It’s not sisterhood.
I also don’t like the “going after her man” thing, because…that’s how you get to the paradigm where the man is less blameworthy because the woman was more aggressive, and I’m not buying that. I don’t make much of a distinction between pursuing an affair and consenting to one (except, I guess, in some cases where the third party is feeling sorry for herself, in which case I guess being the pursuer would make her even more unsympathetic). I don’t see it as much in the “don’t touch what doesn’t belong to you” way as in the “this is potentially going to hurt another person a lot” way.
Re “Married Men”…
The thing is, I do have some sympathy for her. While I have never been involved with a married man, or a man in a serious relationship with someone else, I do know how it feels to want someone to be something they’re not. Her description of Y and Z as an “odd couple” makes it pretty clear that she feels, deep down, that Z is not *really* Y’s type, that, even though Z is the woman he ultimately stayed with, married, and had a child with, she’s not really what he wants. It’s how she justified the unjustifiable act of knowingly fooling around with another woman’s man. She allowed herself to believe, probably with Y’s encouragement, that she was what he wanted, that his relationship with Z was just a big mistake and that he would be with Married if only things with Z weren’t so complicated.
His revelation that he was also seeing other people shattered that belief, and now she’s angry, and I also know how it feels to be furious that someone is getting to have their cake and eat it, too, and have no one else be the wiser. She wants him to suffer for playing her – or for her belief that he was playing her, since we have no way of knowing if he *really* led her to believe that he was serious about her or if she simply led herself to believe that. It’s pretty plain that she feels used – even though getting back together with him the second time *was* her choice – and I can see where she wants to make it so he can’t continue to use Z as well.
At the same time, her claim that this is all about protecting Z’s interests is so incredibly disingenuous that it’s not hard to see why people are reacting the way they are. This is all about Y and what Y did and is doing, and Married’s claim of being Z’s friend is her attempt at covering the fact that she merely sees Z as a tool in her attempt at getting revenge on Y. It’s an understandable desire for revenge, but not a constructive one, no matter what she claims, so although I have sympathy, it’s not a whole lot of sympathy.
If she really cares about this situation, she’ll leave it alone, and take the time to look into why it is that she feels herself so worthless that she would rather continue to chase after a dirtbag like Y than try to find a man who will be hers and hers alone.
“To me, whatever is owed to a married person as far as not having sex with her husband is owed to her as a person, based on the general obligation not to knowingly wreak havoc on other people’s lives if you can help it. It’s not sisterhood.”
Indeed. Forgive me for not being as well spoken as I would like. I absolutely agree that third parties should be held responsible for the reasons you state. We absolutely owe it to each other as human beings to not ‘knowingly wreak havoc on other peoples lives if we can help it”. Not merely by ties of sisterhood. My only intent was to share a bottom line with which I thought other women might relate.
” also don’t like the “going after her man” thing, because…that’s how you get to the paradigm where the man is less blameworthy because the woman was more aggressive, and I’m not buying that. ”
Again, I wish I were a better speaker. I absolutely in no way think men are less to blame in situation like this then the 3rd party woman, regardless of how aggressive she is. By “go after her man” I did not mean to imply aggression, but rather consent.
My bottom line: I do not think that we, as human beings, should consent to be with other human beings who are in committed relationships, out of respect for each other as human beings.
Drawers, I think Sars is right on the money. He can’t know what you want unless you tell him.
Let him know that you really want to live together and *why* (whether it’s as simple as in your letter – you just like having him there – or deep down you do want an assurance that the two of you are headed towards a more formal committment), and ask how he feels about it. He may have reasonable reasons for not answering the first time. For example, he may not have anything against living with you, he just doesn’t want to move into *your* place. He may want to go with you and find a place that can be “our” place.
Also, be really clear that you want an honest answer (I’m assuming you DO want an honest answer?). You want to know how he feels about the idea, and if you really aren’t on the plane of thinking about marriage with this guy yet, lay it out for him. The move-in discussion strikes fear in a lot of guys’ hearts no matter how cool you play it.
Another thing that may be a help to both of you, is consider having an agreement like you would with any other roommate that you can discuss before deciding to move in together – things like how you’ll handle chores, cleaning, bills, and inviting friends over or letting people crash with you with/without the other person’s knowledge/permission. When living together comes up, a lot of people of both genders get nervous that their fun sexy honey is going to become a nag, or a mooch, or let their freeloader friends come over, or get mad when they have their buddies over to drink and play poker, getting on each other’s nerves and sucking all the romance out of the relationship. Agreeing on ground rules in advance makes it much less stressful and helps with that “Oh God, my girlfriend/boyfriend is going to become like my mom/turn into a sitcom lazy messy frat dude” feeling.
Stormy: These comments are used for people trying not only to help others, but share their stories so people feel they are not alone. You used it to declare your self-importance and pose what you felt was some sort of threat. “…last time I visit this site”… perhaps that is for the best, but next time you don’t need to tell us, just GO.
Everyone else; I love this site. It was recommended to me and I am not disappointed. Thank You.