The Vine: June 18, 2008
Hi Sars,
I have a friend, who I’ll call R., and R. has a friend who I’ll call Fuckface. R. is a pretty good guy, but Fuckface is quite racist.
I’ve often told R. that I can’t understand why he’s friends with Fuckface, and R always says something like “Well, he’s always been nice to me” or “Other than the racism, he’s a good bloke.”
As a racial minority myself, I’m rather uncomfortable with Fuckface, and I’m uncomfortable with R’s friendship with Fuckface. I can’t stand the idea of R. hanging around someone who would automatically dislike me on principle.(I can’t say that Fuckface has ever been rude to me personally, but I suspect that’s largely because R. has done a good job of making sure we don’t run into each other.)
So, a few weeks ago, I said to R. something like “I’m not hanging around you as long as you hang around with him.” R. thought I was being ridiculous. The result is that now R. and I never hang out. I guess he chose Fuckface over me.
So here’s my question: Was I out of line? What would you have done if you were R.? On the one hand, I realise I shouldn’t be delivering ultimatums. But on the other hand, I’m not the one saying racist things, so why am I considered the trouble-maker?
Since when is it “just racism”
Dear Just,
Wow, tough one.I don’t think you were out of line, but as I’ve said in the past, when you give an ultimatum, you have to prepare yourself for the possibility that it’s going to go the way you don’t want, as it did here.In other words, it didn’t get the desired result, but if you really felt strongly that R. needed to choose — that you couldn’t tolerate a friend of yours also being friends with a known racist — well, that’s how you felt, and R. chose the racist, so what does that say.You know?
I honestly don’t know what I would have done if I were R., because that situation isn’t really one that would come up in my life.Not that I’ve never met or associated with any racists, alas, but it’s always been a different set-up — a not-very-close work friend of my own, for example, or an older relative who uses terminology that’s outmoded but who doesn’t appear to have any genuine animus towards other races (and was a relative, also, and old, so you make some allowances).I mean, I guess I wouldn’t have loved the ultimatum either, but I also wouldn’t be spending a ton of social time with a “quite racist” guy.
You’re “considered the trouble-maker” because you asked R. to make a decision that isn’t easy or comfortable for him; you confronted him with a difficult choice.And because Fuckface is probably perfectly pleasant and generous to him, R. may feel like he’s been asked to make too large a sacrifice.Sometimes people feel that it’s enough not to be racist themselves, and to put the boundaries any further out than that, like on other people, is a hassle.I don’t endorse that viewpoint or anything; I’m just saying that I think it exists, and it’s most likely what happened here.
It sucks, but…you know.Now you have to wonder what R.’s attitude towards you was when it was just him and Fuckface.You’re better off in some ways, I think.
Finally, at long last, I have finished the children’s book I’ve been working on for what seems to be an embarrassingly long time, considering it’s only six pages long.It’s an adaption of a French fairy tale, but really, onto my problem.
I cannot find a reputable publisher. Most publishers I’ve found do not accept manuscripts from anyone other than an agent, and the ones that don’t seem to mind are the ones that end up wanting me to pay them to publish it!
I can’t really see myself getting an agent, because I don’t write for a career, but short of that, do you have any advice for me?Or perhaps suggestions of where to look?And PLEASE, any suggestions other than Writer’s Market — my library doesn’t have it, I wouldn’t use it regularly enough to justify buying it, and I teach pre-K for eight dollars an hour.
So yeah.Sorry for being a putsmacker and setting limitations.
Sincerely,
Can’t A Girl Just Sell A Story Anymore?
Dear It Ain’t The Forties No More,
You need to get an agent.If you’re not willing to do that, you need to get a copy of Children’s Writer’s and Illustrator’s Market; last year’s is three bucks on Half.com.I understand that you don’t do this for a living, but you can’t wait around to get discovered.A lot of people write books; very few of them get published.If you’re not serious enough about the project to buy a book that will help you, I don’t know what to tell you.Nobody enjoys the hustle, really, but it’s part of it and you have to do it.
Either get a rep, who is familiar with the children’s-publishing market and can navigate it, or buy CW&IM and learn to navigate it yourself.I’d also suggest reading this entry and noting the advice you find in the comments (in fact, browse the whole site).You’ve written the book, and that’s great, but it’s not going to sell itself.
Hi Sars!
I need a little help which is sort of grammar-related.I am cross-stitching a wall hanging for some family friends as a gift.On the bottom, you are supposed to stitch the family name, like “The Smiths.”My problem is their last name ends with an “s.”There is not enough room to put “The Sanders Family,” but “The Sanderses” seems weird, as does “The Sanders.”I am leaning toward just stitching “Sanders,” but somehow that seems kind of cold.
Are people whose last names end in “s” used to the “-es” ending?What would you do?
I changed the name to protect the gift recipients!
Dear Gift,
“The Sanderses” is correct, and they are no doubt used to it.”The Sanders” is wrong.I wouldn’t have a problem with “Sanders,” myself, but if you don’t want to go that route, use “The Sanderses.”
Tags: friendships grammar workplace
I agree with most of your advice to “Just” regarding R, but I kind of have a problem with the way she made the ultimatum. Basically I don’t think anyone else gets to tell me who I can hang out with. If “Just” had said I am not going to hang out with you when fuckface is around I think that would have been justified (sorry about that), but to say I will not hang out with you unless you cut all ties from fuckface seems to me to be over stepping your bounds as a friend. I have a lot of friends who have friends that I don’t like. My solution is not to go to events if those people are there, but I don’t think I have the right to tell a friend to dump another friend simply because I don’t like them or their views.
For Christmas a few years back, my Aunt gave us a small decorative sled, meant for hanging on the wall, and had it lovingly painted with “The Duguid’s.” I display it, but it makes me cringe every time I see it. Kudos to you for going with the correct version.
(Also, I die a little inside whenever I see a holiday card from “The Smith’s.)
To: Gift | You say there’s not enough room for The Sanders Family. Is there enough room for just Sanders Family? (That’s only one more letter than The Sanderses.)
In the interests of continuing to justify comments on the Vine, I will suggest that Just get a copy of the They Might Be Giants album Flood. He/she may find one of the songs particularly appropriate.
I completely sympathize with “Can’t.” All of us writers want to just find a sunny spot outside and write until are hands fall off. None of us want to actually market our writing. If we wanted to do that we would have become traveling salesmen! The unfortunate reality is that if you want to see your name in print you have put those creative juices to work on a sales pitch and pitch it over and over again until you find someone that’s receptive. I must say congratulations on FINISHING (I am so jealous). That is quite an achievement and you should give yourself some time to savor it.
To “Just”
You say FF is quite racist, but you say your friend has done a lot of work keeping you two apart, so how do you know? Has FF done somthing specific, does he have a reputation for this amongst people who know him well and people who’ve only just met him?
Maybe R is trying to be a positive influence on FF. Maybe FF isn’t really a racist, maybe FF just got caught out on a bad day saying something he normally wouldn’t by someone disinclined to be understanding who likes to gossip. Maybe R chose the friend who occasionally tells a joke in very bad taste instead of the friend who decided that they knew better than he did who he should be friends with, ever, no matter what.
IMO, the ultimatum was really more difficult for a friend to deal with than you probably think. Because you basically were telling your friend that you didn’t like them as a person enough to ignore their friends, whom they go a long way in shielding from you, and also, you basically called your friend an accomplice racist. I’m not sure I wouldn’t have chosen the same as R did in the situation.
To Can’t: I’m a nonfiction book editor (we don’t do children’s publishing, alas) and as Sars said, you really do need to find a copy of Writer’s Market for children’s writers and illustrators somehow, someway–even an old one that you buy used (the basic “how to lay out and market your MS” parts stay the same, and you can always use a web search to check on potentially outdated contact info). It’s as important to getting published as owning a computer or having a dictionary. Not only does it spell out addresses and contact info, but it tells you how to go about selling your book, which is what you need.
For some more advice that might come in handy, I’ve written in my blog about submitting to non-fiction publishers, and you may find some of it to be applicable to fiction as well–particularly the parts about doing marketing research and writing a good pitch. http://littlelink.webtrouble.com/?nYnv.
That’s where I went too, Jessica.
Gonna have that song stuck in my head for awhile!
To Just – I think you did the right thing. “Other than the racism, he’s a good bloke.”??? Yeah, and other than the mass murdering, Ted Bundy was a great guy. R choses to spend time with someone whose views you find reprehensible. You’re better off.
“you didn’t like them as a person enough to ignore their friends, whom they go a long way in shielding from you, and also, you basically called your friend an accomplice racist.”
I think this is basically…sort of true, but I don’t necessarily think it’s wrong. It exactly says “I don’t like you so much that I’m willing to overlook the fact that you voluntarily associate with racists without concern.” I think that’s the heart and soul of an ultimatum, is that you have to be willing to stand behind what you’re saying. And here, I don’t think what Just is saying is unreasonable.
It’s not the friends that Just won’t ignore; it’s R’s decision to be friends with racists and to apparently blow off concerns about it. I don’t really think Just called R an accomplice racist, but I do think Just maybe called him less willing to stand up to racism than Just wants Just’s friends to be. It says something about R that he says things like “he’s always been nice to me” or “he’s great other than the racism.” That speaks to R’s values, not just Fuckface’s. I think Just has accurately identified a conflict in her values and R’s values on an important matter, and has accurately concluded that the friendship can’t survive. Just told R that if there wasn’t a change in his attitude, they couldn’t be friends. There wasn’t; they aren’t.
Honestly, I think Just is better off without R. The fact that he thinks it’s cool and froody to hang out with a racist at all just because he’s not the target of the racism says badly of him.
Yeah, I do think it’s overstepping to say, “It’s me or him,” but in the end, I think she’s better off she wasn’t chosen here.
There are still reputable children’s book publishers out there accepting unsolicited (unagented) manuscripts. I work for one.
But it’s not very likely you’ll sell that first manuscript anywhere. Regardless of how hard you’ve worked on it, it’s still a first attempt. Even if you’re a good writer, your first manuscript will probably get nothing but rejection slips because experienced editors are able to see things in your work that indicate that you don’t yet understand various crucial aspects of the genre, the business, or the writing process. And, it means an agent will not be interested in representing you, either, not on the basis of one story.
Most children’s book writers, even the ones with agents, actually do something else for a living (many are teachers and school librarians), but they’ve all committed to a “career” in the sense that they’re willing to work on improving and promoting their craft. Which means they keep writing, invest time (if not money) in their work, and for God’s sake, they try another library if the closest one doesn’t have the market guide they need.
Sars, you can’t be serious that you’ve never met a racist. Be for real! Where do you live? It must not be the US south where I live. I wouldn’t say racism is rampant here, but it is common.
To “Story”:
The Independent Book Publishers Association, formerly known as the Publishers Marketing Association
http://www.pma-online.org/
Though, in my experience, many people who self-publish their books….. um, do so for a reason. Most self-published works are…. not nearly as good as the author (and self-publisher!) thinks.
There are exceptions, sure. And I have some wonderful, beautifully illustrated children’s books from smaller publishing houses. It just isn’t the normal caliber of the self-published work….
I would stronly encourage you to get an agent, but if this is not an option for you, then check out IBPA/PMA and see what your options are.
Just: I have to agree with Marv in DC. It seems you “lost” the ultimatum because you asked R. to adjust his behavior even when you’re NOT around. That’s not really fair.
Can’t: If you can’t afford a used copy of CW&IM, you’re library can probably get it through Inter-Library Loan. Just ask the librarian. It might take a couple weeks, but it’s free.
Just: I have to agree with Marv in DC. It seems you “lost” the ultimatum because you asked R. to adjust his behavior even when you’re NOT around. That’s not really fair.
Can’t: If you can’t afford a used copy of CW&IM, your library can probably get it through Inter-Library Loan. Just ask the librarian. It might take a couple weeks, but it’s free.
@Jessica: Stuck. In. My. Head. Now. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
No, just kidding. Great rec.
@Deanna: I didn’t say that. “Not that I’ve never met or associated with any racists, alas, but it’s always been a different set-up…” Double negative. I’ve come across plenty of racists, sad to say; it just hasn’t been the same situation Just was in, or R.
You know what I love about the new ads? My ads today for this page are read “Is Tipping Racist?” and “Christian Love.”
Hee.
On-topic: For “Gift” – I kind of like whoever suggested “Sanders Family.” That has a nice ring to it, without the awkward “-eseseses.”
Hm. I never really considered what you said, Sars … but it’s true, isn’t it, that an ultimatum cuts both ways? *gives ‘just’ sympathy pat*
I wanted to comment for this as well:
Homer, on hearing that his kids will be baptized: “Oh no! In the eyes of God, they’ll be Flanderseseses!”
Can’t: If your library won’t get the market guide through interlibrary loan, you might check a local public university or community college. They’re likely to have it, and you can often use their books in the library, even if you can’t check them out.
There are things we ask our friends to do or not do when we’re around, and there are other things we ask our friends to never do. If I’m driving, my friends are wearing their seatbelts, but I’m not going to cut them off if I find out that they don’t wear seatbelts when they’re driving their own cars. But I would cut off friends if I found out they were driving drunk — I’m not going to spend one bit of my life’s energy providing any kind of comfort or support to someone who would recklessly endanger the lives of others.
While it’s a judgment call, I think that the cutting off a friend who willingly associates with racists even when you’re not around is more than defensible. Fuckface’s attitudes are corrosive to society and destructive to the common good. R. facilitates that destruction by hanging around with Fuckface — perhaps if Fuckface realized that there were consequences for being a racist, he would examine his life a bit and start living it differently. You can’t stop your friends from doing things that harm others, but you can make sure they suffer some kind of consequences for doing those things.
I think Just was totally justified. I get what people are saying re: telling a friend what they can do when you’re not around, but (taking the letter at face value, assuming FF doesn’t just make a non-PC joke every so often), we’re talking about an unabashed racist here. That’s reprehensible, and anyone who hangs out with such a person is not much better. I feel like the folks who are saying that the ‘ultimatum’s extreme b/c R’s allowed to have friends that Just doesn’t like’ don’t think racism’s a big deal. I mean, if FF were an unabashed pedophile (the dictionary definition of the word i.e. not abusing anyone, but totally open with his love for kids and child porn) and R was cool with him b/c “hey, his pedophilia doesn’t affect me,” I don’t think y’all would be as tolerant. *shrug* Some things are not ok/shouldn’t be tolerated…we just disagree on what those things are.
I have an “-s” name, and after my brother got married last year he, my sister-in-law, and I had a few discussions about how to do the plural. Specifically, they wanted to do the plural possessive. For the record, that’s “Sanderses’s.” Ours is even worse because we end in “-es,” not just “-s,” so it’s “-eses’s.” They wound up listening to me tell them the few ways they could do it right, and I think they rejected it in favor of one of the more popular wrong ways, the old -s’. Sanders’ is wrong, wrong.
We started thinking of last names that would have even more “-es” awkwardness. I could only think of Rameses. If anyone had that as a last name, people would visit the Rameseses’s house. Horrible, right?
Anyway, anecdote over, Gift should know we “-s” namers are used to people finding ways around the awkward plurals. We do it ourselves. The Sanderses will understand.
Ah, crap. It’s Sanderses’ — I actually added one “s” too many. Bad Carolyn, no commenting after work.
@ Jennifer: I’m curious; what does ‘froody’ mean? I’ve never heard that term before.
As a person who does have an extremely racist and gay bashing friend, I find that I can push and prod him into not saying things for a few hours when he is around me. My hope is that when I’m not around, maybe a few things linger. Which, I’m sure is totally wrong, but still: for a few hours every week or so, the bad words are few and far between. That’s something, to me at least.
No, it does not mean I condone his views. I spend a lot of time during our time spent together arguing about what he’s saying, from mild political discussions about Obama to why killing illegal aliens as an example is a terrible idea. Outside of that, he’s a funny, interesting, smart guy who enjoys my company too because he finds me funny, smart, and interesting. I like those kind of people, I have many gay and minority friends who are similarly smart, funny, and interesting.
Do I keep him away from my gay and minority friends? Hell yes! I have had a few friends like Just who wanted me to stop being friends with him, since as a bisexual free loving spirit I should find him despicable. But as a free loving spirit, I am left with the fact that he continues to respect me and try not to say those things around me.
And when he runs for office, you will see me being the first person talking to the media about his real thoughts. But he’ll still be my friend, because I know that if I asked him to, he would be polite to any of my gay or minority friends, out of deference to me. And maybe that’ll start drifting into other areas of his life too, and maybe his views will change. Maybe they won’t. But I get to choose who I hang out with, and people who try to limit that are who I would give up first. End of story.
…end of rant too, heh.
I wish it were as easy to tell my oldest sister that I won’t see her for another four years because the first time I see her in four years she says Obama is a racist and Tiger Woods is overrated. Red state much? Just was right, even if the result hurts a bit now, in the long run it hurts less.
I’m not sure “The Sanders” isn’t correct if you accept that the “Family” in the phrase is understood. Just an idea.
I sympathize with that, Tori. One of my friends is married to a guy (who’s a friend by extension) prone to ignorant rants and jokes. I think his friends/family/associates in the past have let him get away with it and even encouraged him, so he hasn’t had to think about it too much. I don’t cater to that, though, so whenever he slips from “fun guy who’s nice to me” to “raving moron,” I switch from “fun gal who’s nice to him” to “shutthefuckup, yo.” Not only does it work in the moment, but on occasion my friend tells me that he’s privately admitted to saner thoughts, just out of embarrassment at being called out. I don’t think he’d second guess himself if he were being scolded by a total stranger.
On the other hand, it doesn’t sound like R. is doing much more than enabling Fuckface…
@allison: I am not Jennifer, but I believe the “cool and froody” phrase comes from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. I highly recommend them.
From the Urban dictionary
Adjective- To be like a frood (to be really amazingly together). Commonly used in Douglas Adam’s Hitchhiker’s Guide trilogy of five books.
@allison: Douglas Adams, author of Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, tells us that a hoopy frood is a cool, very laid back guy.
Can’t, I accidentally found the single most amazing and important motivator/teacher/resource as a writer a few years ago when I joined a group. I have NEVER been a joiner, have always sniffily preferred to believe that writing is a solitary process, and would have questioned the usefulness of a “community” of writers if anyone had told me there even was one within 100 miles. I have also never gotten my work sold. YET.
Three years ago, I found an intense, active, vital community. It has been amazing to come to understand the practicalities of the BUSINESS of writing. I’ve been overjoyed at the accessibility this community affords to invaluable professional contacts, and in these three years, I’ve completed a readers’ draft of a novel I know will be published, because I actually know how to go about it. I have also met and been fortunate to learn from, listen to, and even get to know some fascinating and very smart professionals in many aspects of the business.
I know where my towel is. And I know how to use it.
http://www.jamesriverwriters.com/
@ Tori: Of course you get to choose who you hang out with, but if I had two friends, and one was trying to limit who I hang out with and the other was a racist, I’d choose the former. In my eyes, that’s the smaller sin.
In my view, i wouldn’t really consider what Just did to be an ultimatum in the first place.
She identified a situation that she couldn’t accept, and stated that she couldn’t continue the friendship if it continued to exist. By following through on the consequence, she is losing out on a friend as well. This is no different than standing up for yourself in a romantic relationship.
Sars has consistently held the view that you need to be clear and honest about the kinds of things which you are willing to put up with in a relationship. Compromise is important, but compromising your core values only makes you feel dirty afterwards.
R’s association with FF had a real impact on Just’s relationship with him, and even though you’re free to associate with anyone you choose, that choice defines you to some extent. R made a choice, but that choice was made waaaay before Just raised the issue. He decided to associate with a racist in the first place and therefore (to some people) planted himself on that side of the bigot line.
Having a racist friend is more complicated than some of y’all seem to think. Sometimes confrontation is kind of pointless and may make the situation worse.
It’s possible that R is a closet racist himself, but it’s also possible he’s trying to navigate this icky territory in good faith. It’s not clear to me what grownup response he could have possibly had to the ultimatum. A showdown is usually high drama with no likely positive effect, and just drifting away wouldn’t have accomplished anything either (beyond pacifying Just). I think the most practical response is often to try to work with what you have and see if, over time, you can soften the insanity a little. I don’t think it’s practical to insist that everyone whose views or habits are “socially corrosive” enough be shunned by everybody. Ask some smokers how they feel about that, eh?
I do think Just is probably better off, given how uncomfortable s/he was with the situation. There’s no law that you have to accept nth-degree racism in your social circle, and I’d probably feel ooky in your shoes, too. As someone who’s not usually a target of racism, though, I feel like I can do more good if I keep the door open for productive conversation.
“I don’t think it’s practical to insist that everyone whose views or habits are ‘socially corrosive’ enough be shunned by everybody.”
Bigotry is poisonous enough, and easy enough to spread, that it should be shunned, in my view. On the other hand, bigotry has *caused* enough shunning (and far far worse, of course) that maybe you’re right. I think it’s very important to keep sending the That Sort Of Nonsense Will Not Be Tolerated message, but that doesn’t get at the root of it. People will slap some more tolerable terminology on the problem to shut you up, but it doesn’t change their beliefs.
Like I said, it’s a tough one.
I, like Tori, have a friend who is prone to racist and ignorant comments. Everytime he uses the n-word I ream him a new one. I hate to even attempt to justify it but he grew up with two semi-racist parents (i.e. they have the thoughts that lower socioeconomic non-white people aren’t that great but don’t necessarily treat them badly or keep them out of their lives) and I’m fairly confident that is where he gets it from.
He’s never had his attitudes and views challenged by his family, so I make it a point to let him know that I will NOT tolerate that kind of language from him around me. I hope that if I keep challenging the language then maybe one day he will see how limited his thinking is (and his vocab if the n-word is the only one he can use to portray HIS idea of “ignorance”).
He’s my cousin’s boyfriend and she used to do like Hannah and tell him to STFU but now after a year she just seems to let the comments pass even saying the other day “I just ignore him when he talks like that.” I find that equally reprehensible. She does not have a racist bone in her body and used to challenge him on his close-minded and ignorant views about minorities, immigrants etc but now seems to just it slide sometimes. Quite frankly it shouldn’t ever be allowed to slide. Quite frankly, if that was MY boyfriend, he would’ve been out the door and my life at the first use of the n-word. I don’t know HOW or WHY she tolerates it.
He doesn’t do it ALL the time but it’s enough where it’s clear that he has a racist streak. It IS hard being friends with someone like that. I always worry when he says things like that in front of people he doesn’t know that well — what do they think of ME for associating with him? I can’t fathom how hard it must be to be a minority and have a friend who knowingly is friends with a person who thinks less of you as a human based on the colour of your skin. If I was Just I suppose I may have done the same thing.
As for the children’s book, unless something has changed in the years since I worked there, Tricycle Press, the kid’s division of TenSpeed reads all “slush,” or unsolicited manuscripts. They have even published some from that pile.
In my experience, shunning proves to the bigots of the world that they are right and makes them even more entrenched in their worldview, that they then pass onto their kids, who are more entrenched, and repeat ad infinitum.
As a hyper-liberal, born and raised, I’ve actually made friends with some bigots that would want to punch the majority of my other friends and talked with them about what they believe and why and called them on blatant bullshit and gaps of logic and self-contradiction. Sometimes it doesn’t make a difference and we drift apart, but other times it really makes a difference.
A lot of racism (around these parts in the fly-overs, at least) is born of ignorance (as in lack of knowledge) and parroting what one has been taught by generations of family and immediate community past from the cradle. Ignorance is solvable by education, not by corralling it into a tiny closet and pretending that it doesn’t exist.
That said, “Just” has her own limits and tolerances and she should completely decide what she can live with. Life’s too short.
I’m black, with a rainbow coalition of friends, and my ultimatum would have probably been more like “I will not spend time in FF’s presence, ever.†But then I’d think, well, wait a minute, what does that say about R if he’s voluntarily choosing to spend time with someone he acknowledges is racist? And I think that’s a flagrant enough difference in our values for me to say, you know what, I can’t hang. Ignoring someone’s bad table manners is one thing; asking if you can touch my hair when it’s wet is annoying, but I wouldn’t cut people off over it. But if your friend is dropping n-bombs and you KNOW they are and just sit there (which, to me, is a form of acceptance) … we probably aren’t compatible. If I had a rampantly homophobic person in my life, they’d hear “Please stop muttering ‘fags’ when we pass a gay couple;†“actually, I totally support gay marriage – I’m in a lesbian wedding next summer;†“my cousin is gay and it offends me when you talk like that.†They’d know I found that viewpoint objectionable. And it would really bug me that someone I was friends with didn’t care enough to take a stand on that kind of behavior, so I’d probably just walk. I don’t really think there’s a right or wrong answer here; in these situations, you have to decide what you can tolerate, and tolerate it.
Writer’s Market is likely to be part of the reference collection, and not available for interlibrary loan from most libraries. But it’s a pretty standard source and it shouldn’t be too hard to find a library nearby that has it.
Hey SARS, I apologize! I absolutely misread what you wrote. Thanks for pointing that out for me! Doh!
I think that if R had responded by saying, “Look, I know it’s odious, but my hope is that over time, his feelings about it might change if I keep hammering away,” as some of you are saying you do with racist friends, Just probably would have felt differently. Saying instead that the racist is perfectly nice to YOU, or that the racist is nice except for being a racist, is very different. If he were disgusted by it but believed it was for the best not to cut FF off, that’d be one thing. This is, it seems, simply declaring that it’s not that big a deal that the guy’s a racist.
I don’t think the question is straight-up “can you be friends with someone who’s friends with a racist.” It’s “when does my friend’s attitude toward his racist friend become a problem with my friend, and not just a problem with the racist?” It’s not about deciding who your friends can hang out with; it’s deciding who YOU can hang out with.
@ BO: Just because someone lives in a red state doesn’t make them racist or prone to racism, just as living in a blue state doesn’t exempt anyone from being a bigot. If you’ll recall, some of the toughest areas to desegregate and some of the most entrenched racism in the country was in the blue-collar parts of the east, not just in the backwaters of the Mississippi.
Hey, Just, R is racist. Just racist enough not to understand why racism might upset someone who isn’t white, which is racist enough for me to write him off. I applaud you for trying to make him confront his privilege. You’re better off for sure.
Most publishers don’t read slush, it’s true, but finding an agent isn’t just for career-oriented super-prolific writers. Agents are the gatekeepers of the modern publishing world. And some of them are awesome, wonderful, superhelpful people who want to put great books out there for the love of it. If you want to see your book in print, go out there and find yourself one.
The agent hunt is SO different than it used to be only a few years ago. A lot of them take e-queries; some of them ONLY take e-queries.
You can hunt for the names of agents who represent children’s books on sites like agentquery.com or absolutewrite.com. Most agencies have sites. Googling will help you separate the reputable ones from the scam artists (reputable ones do not get paid up front, only after the book sells). And most will tell you what their guidelines are (do they want to see just a letter? an outline? the whole MS?) somewhere on the web. So you submit. And you’ll get some rejections. So you research some more, send some more queries, get some more rejections, try again.
And if this seems like too much work? Then you’re probably not going to see your book published. Which is a shame. But finding an agent is almost essential these days, and if you find the right one (and they love your book), they will be a passionate advocate for you and get you a good deal with a good house.
c8h10n4o2 said: ‘A lot of racism (around these parts in the fly-overs, at least) is born of ignorance (as in lack of knowledge) and parroting what one has been taught by generations of family and immediate community past from the cradle. Ignorance is solvable by education, not by corralling it into a tiny closet and pretending that it doesn’t exist.’
I agree with this but will add that I think part of it can be lack of exposure to different kinds of people. Ten years ago, my family was somewhat homophobic, but my two softball coaches in high school were gay and one of them is now the principle in the high school. My sister thinks she’s awesome and stopped that stupid-ass way of thinking. I know it sounds ridiculous to people who have grown up in a diverse culture.
Also, sometimes people from small communities aren’t open towards *any* people from outside the community at first, simply because they are looked down on so freaking frequently. Having come from a small community and having moved far away to a new one after living in large cities for ten years, I also found that the best way to be accepted is to become part of the community. It’s actually pretty impressive how quickly people included once the community sees that the new folks aren’t looking down their noses at them.
Also, this has nothing to do with the letters and isn’t pointed at c8h10n4o2 in any way, but can we stop using term ‘fly over state’? It does nothing but breed anamosity and make people living in said ‘fly over states’ feel like East and West Coast people are nothing but a bunch of smug jerks- and I lived on the East Coast for the last six years and know that’s not true. I also know that the states in the middle rock and have lots of educated, intelligent people and when you call them ‘fly over states’, it makes the people who live there think you consider them nothing but a bunch of uneducated yokels that have nothing to contribute to our country. /end rant
Okay, so:
You are friends with A. A is friends with B. You intensely dislike B, so much so that you cut A out of your life. And somehow A is the jerk here? I don’t get it.
Set aside, for a moment, the question of racism, because there could be any number of reasons why you hate B. Maybe he voted in favor of rent control. Maybe he thinks that school vouchers are a great idea. Maybe he prefers buses to light rail as an urban mass-transit solution. Maybe he doesn’t eat the crust of his pizza. Maybe he drinks Coors Lite. Maybe he likes the way Paris Hilton talks. Maybe he smells funny. It doesn’t matter, because it’s not really about him. It’s about you, and your relationship to someone who isn’t him.
Now, if you want to say “I can’t be friends with someone who doesn’t throw a wobbler at the slightest hint of wrongthink,” that’s fine; you’ve certainly got the right to make that decision. But don’t go around telling yourself that it wasn’t a decision. This was not a Historical Inevitability, or an excuse for you to get all self-congratulatory; this was you choosing not to hang out with someone because you didn’t like his other friends.
Give me a break, Gorgosaurus. You can’t “set aside the question of racism”; the question was ABOUT racism, and equating it with not liking to eat pizza crust is disingenuous, at best. This is not a difference of opinion or taste; it’s prejudice, which R. failed to take a stand on on Just’s behalf. You can agree with Just’s solution or not, but why all the sneering? Where are you getting “self-congratulatory” from?
My letting comments through isn’t a Historical Inevitability either. Your tone is inexplicable and out of line.
“This is not a difference of opinion or taste; it’s prejudice, which R. failed to take a stand on on Just’s behalf.”
But why did R need to do anything at all? This was not a problem with R. This was a problem with Just, and it was entirely up to Just to work it out on their own. And this is, in fact, what happened; Just said “him or me”, and R said “him”. Now Just is trying to come to grips with the realization that there is, in fact, a world that exists independently of him, and that this world will not always snap to the way he wants it.
Which is why I say to set aside the specifics of R’s friend’s behavior. You’re saying that if it had been almost anything else–food, dress, media preference–then Just would indeed have been out of line to go around throwing ultimatums. But because it’s racism, then Just is entirely justified, as it were, to act as though R were exactly as much of a racist bigot as his other friend. That’s where you’re going with this? You’re suggesting that racism has an Evil Taint that can infect people by association, and that simply accepting the idea that someone, somewhere is racist is tantamount to tossing a white bedsheet over your head? Not buying it.
Here’s the thing: I’m okay with the idea that Just walked away. As I said, that’s entirely up to Just. But Just, in the letter, seems to have this idea that it’s okay to be a dick as long as you’re doing it to someone who you think is a dick–or, in this case, you’re doing it to an associate of someone you think is a dick. That doesn’t go. Being a dick is being a dick, whether or not you think it’s justified. Now, if you don’t mind being a dick, that’s fine; but you’ve got to own it. It’s not healthy to act like a dick and then say “he deserved it”, or “it’s his own fault really”, or “he was a dick first”.
“That’s where you’re going with this? You’re suggesting that racism has an Evil Taint that can infect people by association, and that simply accepting the idea that someone, somewhere is racist is tantamount to tossing a white bedsheet over your head? Not buying it.”
Don’t put words in my mouth, particularly not when they make me sound like a half-cocked idiot. Neither I nor anyone else here suggested that “simply accepting” that racism exists makes anyone a Klansman. But racism IS in fact an evil taint. Contact with it, witting or otherwise, does not act like a virus, but I’ll thank you not to act like you’re the only one here who knows that.
That isn’t the point. HERE’S the point: “But why did R need to do anything at all? This was not a problem with R. This was a problem with Just, and it was entirely up to Just to work it out on their own.”
More disingenuous hair-splitting. Yes, it’s Just’s problem, which he was having WITH R. It doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Again, you may not agree with Just’s chosen solution, but if Just really can’t tolerate R. being friends with someone who despises Just on principle, is Just supposed to disappear without a single word to R.? How do you work out friendship problems without talking to or dealing with the friend in question?
“And this is, in fact, what happened; Just said “him or me”, and R said “him”. Now Just is trying to come to grips with the realization that there is, in fact, a world that exists independently of him, and that this world will not always snap to the way he wants it.”
This characterization is unfair, and irrelevant. You are ascribing a self-absorption and naivete to Just that isn’t in the original letter, and your whole “the world doesn’t revolve around Just” attitude is disproportionately accusatory. I mean, Just knows the world will not always snap to the way s/he wants it; why do you think s/he wrote to me? Because of how happily the situation turned out? Just sensed s/he may have gone too far, and asked me about it. If s/he is content with the outcome, why ask an advice column anything in the first damn place?
As for your last paragraph…you’re the expert.