The Vine: June 24, 2009
Dear Sars,
Some years ago I received a Master of Arts degree in English literature.However, my professional life is about as far removed from my academic past as it could possibly be — I work for a biomedical research organization, and many of my colleagues hold M.D.s, Ph.D.s, or other doctorates in various scientific and technical fields.
Several coworkers, most recently my supervisor, have commented on the fact that I don’t usually append my degree to my name in e-mail or other correspondence.My reasoning is that my M.A., while certainly nice to have, is a) not a terminal degree and b) almost entirely irrelevant to the work I do, so it would be inappropriate to use.
If I had an M.S., that would be another thing, and if I were, say, making a presentation to the Modern Language Association, I’d append the M.A. to my name without a second thought. But in the context of the kind of work that I do, it seems almost…I don’t know, tacky?
On the other hand, my boss, who is a wise and wonderful person, thinks it’s strange that I don’t use it more often.So I’m at a loss as to the etiquette here: should I continue to follow my instincts and leave the M.A. off, or am I actually committing a professional faux pas by not including it?
Token Liberal-Arts Chick
Dear Chick,
It seems like more of a professional faux pas to include it if it has nothing to do with your current field.I don’t know if I’d actually go so far as to call it a breach of workplace etiquette, but at the least, it’s got the potential to cause confusion; the point of appending any given degree is, obviously, to signal that you hold it, but I don’t think it adds to anyone’s understanding of your relative experience or expertise in biomedical research to know that you have an MA in literature.
If you were presenting a paper and you wanted to include a mention of it in the biographical materials, or the introductory paragraph the moderator might read, then sure, why not.Otherwise, while it’s nice for your colleagues to want you to take credit for your accomplishment, it’s not pertinent, and you should continue omitting it.
Dear Sars:
I had a friend for 20 years whose husband was emotionally abusive for years, and things got out of hand and crazy when she started having an affair.She confided to me about the affair and I gave her advice that really ran the gamut; everything from “leave your husband” to “stop seeing this dude and work on your family.”The only thing I always said was please go see a counselor with or without him.
Her husband finally found out and things got really out of control.I again tried to give her the best advice I could but you know, I’m 1000 miles away and hearing my best friend of 20 years suffering on the phone it was hard not to take sides and consider her husband the main problem. I gave her advice directed at her alone, and not always advice designed to salvage her family.
Then in February I got an email from my friend basically telling me that she had told her husband the things I had been telling her to do, and that he demanded she chose between her family and me, so she chose her family.She said that if she had taken my advice she would have lost her family, which isn’t altogether true.She said she was sorry and that she hoped that she and I could be friends again when her life was more stable.
I was very hurt and upset.I felt like she threw me under the bus.But the reality is I have no idea how this email came to be.She never told me how this conversation with her husband came about, and she never once told me that she didn’t like my advice.For all I know she could have been made to write this email while sobbing at the PC, husband standing over her.Or it could have been her idea.
Not to mention the fact that I gave her this advice In Confidence and technically this is a massive violation of the Girl Rules as I understand them.Girlfriend advice is confidential and really has no business being spread to husbands or boyfriends. (Is this just me?)
For the last few months I’ve basically been waiting by the phone for her to come back to me or to give me any kind of explanation.But I’m sick of waiting and pretty pissed and upset.Her life is not the only life in the world, and things have happened to me that I could have used her advice and good wishes and help. I have needed her and she hasn’t been there.
I have considered sending her a letter (I have ways of making sure it gets past her husband) to tell her that she can forget being my friend, because friends don’t treat each other this way. Is it wrong to send this? Should I just let it go and keep thinking that maybe one day she’ll show up? Is there something else I should consider?
Missing My Girlfriend
Dear Miss,
What exactly do you want to happen here?Before you send anything, you have to decide if this is a friend you want going forward.I’m not sure she is, for two reasons.
One, she has a history of making bad choices — staying with a fucknuts for 20 years; cheating on him; going back to him, then letting him choose her friends after selling them out to him — and this is another link in the chain.Not that you can’t stay friends with people based on that, but she did make the choice and she did fail to choose you.And a subset of that, I think, is that you have spent a lot of time helping her deal with those crappy choices, and for what.You know?I mean, yes, this is what friends do for each other, but: this is what friends do for each other.You said it yourself: you need her, she’s AWOL because a guy she didn’t think enough of to be faithful to told her, it’s her or me.At a certain point you probably have to start thinking of that as a favor to you, shitty though it felt.
The second thing is that, if she does come back around…well, then what?You just say “bygones” and go back to talking about TV?What does that “friendship” look likeonce she’s made it clear that she’s just going to come and go within it like it’s a coffee shop?
Obviously there’s more to this friendship than you’ve told me or that I can see from this letter; obviously it has value to you.But again, she made her choice, and if you send a letter, you have to think about what you want to happen, and what is likely to happen as a result.If you want to kind of poke her and remind her that she treated you suckily, in the hopes that she’ll apologize and you’ll move forward, then you should just say that.”Your decision to throw me under the bus hurt me and pissed me off; I can get past it, but you need to know how it made me feel and you need to make it right.”
But if all you really want to do is tell her off and then cut her dead, well, I’d skip the first part and go straight to the second.She already turned you loose; accept it, mourn it, and try to move on.
The thing is, though, this is someone who chose to treat you like this, and who basically told you she’d do you the “honor” of calling you sometime if her crappy husband lets her.If what you want is a felt understanding on her side that that dog won’t hunt, I don’t know that that’s realistic.If what you want is closure, well, you can provide that for yourself.
Send the letter or don’t, but know before you mail it what you want, and what you can reasonably expect, from writing it.
Dear Sars,
I have something that I am really torn about, and I would love to have your (and the readers’) opinions.I have a Best Friend who had a long-term Boyfriend.They had been together for two years.They lived together, and everything was good.
A few months ago, Best Friend left the country to pursue a job opportunity.She and Boyfriend went on a “break,” even though both felt like they would have stayed together if the had been on the same continent.I know that she was really distraught about having to go on a break, and they still talk once a week.
About a month after she left, Boyfriend invited a friend of his from college (a girl) to come and visit him.He and this friend had hooked up once in college, but this was before Best Friend came into the picture and they were supposed to be “just friends” now.
Well, I went over to his apartment (while she was visiting) to return something and happened to overhear them having sex.As it was a little like walking in on your parents, I pretty much ran out of the building, returned his stuff later that night and didn’t say anything about it.
Now, a few months later, I hear from Best Friend that they are officially back together and he’s going to be visiting her.She’s said that she feels like they never “really” went on a break, and were always together.I really hope that’s not how he sees it.Part of me wants to just be happy for them, assume that what happened while they were on a break doesn’t matter and let this go, but I’m really torn about what to do for two reasons.
The first is because Best Friend hates cheaters.She’s said repeatedly that she’d rather be dumped than cheated on, and I feel like she deserves to have a full picture of what was going on.
The second is more mundane. I work at an STD clinic, and I can’t help but think that this person I care about deserves to know that Boyfriend had sex with someone else, if only so she can make a smart health choice.
Sars, she is the nicest girl in the world and it would kill me if she got hurt because of me.Right now, I’m thinking of having a very awkward sit-down with Boyfriend and saying that I know what happened, I don’t want to be the one that tells her, but that he should.Problem is, I don’t know whether to follow that up with “And if you don’t I will.”I think he’s a decent guy, and I think that he cares about her.If he messed up in the weird together-but-not of their relationship, I would understand.I don’t want to mess up a good thing for her, but I don’t want her to get hurt because I didn’t say anything.
You always ask what people would, ideally, want to have happen in this kind of situation, and mostly I just want her to be safe and to be assured that this was a one-time, ambiguous-relationship thing and it won’t happen again.Think I can blackmail Boyfriend into getting an STD check?
Trying To Be A Good Friend
Dear Friend,
Why should anyone tell her at all?It’s possible that “we’re allowed to sleep with other people, don’t ask don’t tell” was built into the terms of the break, and even if it wasn’t, it really doesn’t do Best Friend any good to know about it now unless you think Boyfriend also used dirty needles or whatever.I mean, you only know this by accident, if you see what I’m saying.
If you absolutely can’t live with the thought that Boyfriend might inadvertently give Best Friend an STD — although I would point out that you either don’t have or haven’t mentioned any evidence that he tends to skip protection — then sit him down and say that you know what happened.You wish you didn’t, but you do, and you don’t know what the deal was with the break, so you apologize for presuming, but if asked directly by Best Friend whether you have any knowledge of this, you will not lie, and 2) you’re sure he was safe, but if he wasn’t, you hope he will please please use proper precautions until he gets tested.
It’s tough, because you want Best Friend to have the knowledge she needs, but you have to ask yourself whether this is actually knowledge she needs, or just knowledge you do not want to haul around anymore, and you shouldn’t feel bad about yourself if it’s the latter — it sucks knowing these things.But presuming upon this relationship any farther than you have to is a bad idea.Don’t threaten to tell; don’t order Boyfriend to tell; don’t make the mistake of thinking that honesty is more important than kindness.I understand the instinct, but a lot of secrets are better kept.
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette friendships workplace
I understand the degree dilemma. After getting my master’s in social work, I temped at a medical association as an admin for a few months. They insisted that I add the MSW after my name, even though it had nothing to do with anything. I always assumed it was part of the whole prestige thing, like “Even our temps have master’s degrees!” It was weird, but since I was temping, I just went with it. If I had been there as my career, I don’t think I would have included it.
Miss, in your shoes I’d send that letter & ask if she dumped you of her own free will or if she composed that email with a gun to her head. If it’s the former, then it’s over as Sars says. You deserve a better friend than that.
But if it’s the latter, she needs you more than ever, maybe. I’d give it that one last try. At least you’ll know you gave the friendship every chance & there’ll be no doubt.
Miss, I’m with Margaret – isolating people from friends and family is EXACTLY what abusive partners do. Maybe she’s never going to leave him, but at least you can make your position clear.
@Miss: Yes, it’s possible she wrote the letter under duress. But discussing the advice you gave her with her husband was her choice (I don’t see him bringing your role into it without her bringing your role into it first), and as you say, that was absolutely a profound betrayal of your friendship. If she were writing it with him standing over her, I doubt it would have said he was forcing her to choose, and I doubt it would have said she hoped you could be friends in the future.
For now, she has made her choice. I’m with “mourn it and move on.”
@Trying: I honestly don’t understand the question. “Break,” to me, means “not in a monogamous romantic relationship.” He’s allowed to have sex with someone else if that’s their status. What else does “break” mean? What else does it mean that they got “back together”?
For my money, what he did while they were not together is none of your business. He’s not a cheater. That’s not cheating. It would be very unfair to him, in my opinion, for you to tell her this information, which you only gathered by overhearing them having sex (which…I must say, I have a few questions about). He has a right to some privacy here as regards things that took place in his own home while he was single.
If he had cheated on her and they were married so that she had no way of knowing it might be smart to get tested, I’d understand the STD part. But here…she hasn’t been misled. She has enough information to know she’d be smart to return to square one on testing. If she chooses not to act on it, that’s her decision. But I don’t think you have any right to tell her, I don’t think he has any obligation to tell her, and frankly, threatening the boyfriend that you’re GOING to tell her would be, in my opinion, ugly behavior on your part.
@ Friend – you say “it would kill me if she got hurt because of me.” But…it has nothing to do with you. The boyfriend and whatsherbucket had sex while boyfriend and best friend were on a break. Unless you were in the room helping him aim, or unless best friend asked you to keep tabs on him while she was away (in which case: yuck on a stick), you don’t bear responsibility for any of this. Sars is right – you don’t know (or at least you don’t include in your letter) the details of the break arrangement. Take a step back and ask why you want to take so much ownership of this issue from the sidelines. It’s really not about you.
TLAC – I agree with Sars that it’s your call whether or not you want to use the MA after your name, but I did want to point out that the degree is, in fact, a terminal degree. You may have received it from a program that feels it does not offer “terminal MAs” – that the MA is just a step on the way to the PhD – but as you didn’t continue to the PhD, it’s the terminal degree for you. You completed the coursework and other requirements, you got the degree, you graduated and terminated your time there.
Also: while the MA may not be relevant to bioresearch in particular, if you work in editing or anything like that, it could very well fit.
@ Chick – definitely stick with your gut. I’ve found myself in the same boat since leaving university. Though I’ve never found myself in a field totally outside the realm of my Masters degree (which is quite specific to one profession), I have had jobs that are related to varying degrees. As in some were totally related and some, well, you really had to make a reach to make a connection.
The policy I’ve finally come to is that it really depends on the context of the situation, as you said with your Modern Language Association example. If I’m posting to a list-serv or emailing someone in my field for whatever reason, I include my Masters letters after my name on those occasions. But I’ve come to the conclusion that leaving it off as a general practice works best when the context of the degree is anywhere from medium-to-minimal-to-nothing. Simply because when it is out of context, people either (a) think you’re trying to toot your own horn, (b) have no idea what it means anyway or (c) aren’t paying enough attention to wonder what it means, anyway.
My feelings about the degree after the name are somewhat complicated in general, but for Chick’s case, I really don’t see how it could possibly be helpful.
I don’t personally enjoy putting my degree after my name, because it makes me feel pretentious. It is sometimes necessary, however, when dealing with other pretentious people who won’t listen as well unless they see the “PhD” sparkling there after my name.
I would argue, however, that the kind of person who needs to see the PhD to take me seriously, is precisely the kind of person who won’t take you any more seriously if she has an MA (since she’s in a scientific field) than if she has an unknown degree. The possible exception is if it’s her job to help them make sure their journal articles are in something that resembles English. She might then be able to lean on the MA as a signifier of expertise. (Not that it will necessarily help, I spent several years trying to convince my advisor that 95% of all sentences should not be written in passive voice, until I finally turned my back on my English teachers and just gave in to sentence structures like “The solution to Equation 1 is found to be X, where X is given by Y”.)
Just a point of clarification with Missing Girlfriend’s letter, I don’t think that the girlfriend and the husband have been married for 20 years. I think that the letter writer and the friend have been friends for 20 years. I read it the way you did the first time, but she later mentions a 20 year friendship several other times in the letter.
Anyway, maybe I’m missing something, but why risk a letter that could get the friend in trouble with the emotionally abusive husband? Why not pick up a phone and call? Couldn’t a lot of this confusion be remedied by a conversation? Call her on the phone and say “X, we’ve been friends for 20 years, I don’t understand what has happened or why you threw me under the bus, and I’m worried that it may not be your choice. What’s really going on?” That is, if Missing wants to salvage the friendship and is worried about her friend. If not, then why bother? Let it go.
I question the advice to Friend. The problem in these situations always seems to boil down to “Would the person who is currently in the dark want to know, and if so, would it do anyone any good if they did?”. Sars usually leans toward the “Mind your own business” side of things when it could go either way, but I think this case could be an exception.
Best Friend has made it clear that cheating is a dealbreaker. Provided that this incident meets the definition of cheating (what’s a “break”?), she will want to know about it, and not telling becomes a lie of omission. If Best Friend makes a long term commitment to, or marries, Boyfriend on the assumption that he is not a cheater, then finds out later that he is/was, and that Friend could have told her, it could be bad.
I agree with talking to Boyfriend first. He should be given the opportunity to do the right thing. Whether Friend decides to take the “…or else” route depends on how well she knows Best Friend, and what she would want here.
Provided that this incident meets the definition of cheating (what’s a “break”?), she will want to know about it, and not telling becomes a lie of omission.
I disagree that she would want to know about it; this is where the question of “honesty vs. kindness” comes in. What she “wants to know,” really, is that he is not a cheater. If he IS a cheater, I wouldn’t characterize that as information anyone “wants.” I have the same zero-tolerance view of cheating, but I have also told boyfriends, a one-time slip-up that won’t lead to me getting Hep C or something, and you’re sure it won’t be repeated? Don’t confess yourself to me. Get tested, fine, but I don’t really want to know or I’ll have to dump you.
I guess I don’t see how “the right thing” automatically means telling her. “Getting it off your chest to make yourself feel better” is not always the right thing for the tell-ee.
I’m in a similar situation to TLAC, only I just have a BA. My job insists on including it on my business cards and everything, because it’s a medical association and they’re very initial-happy, so even though including a BA (!) makes no sense for an editor, for people in this field, it’s a requirement. They don’t care that my profession is separate.
Why is it “doing the right thing” to describe the sexual activity he participated in when they were *not together*? I just honestly do not understand what makes that “the right thing,” when there’s not even the slightest hint that the Best Friend has asked him for this information or wants it.
Frankly, the LW apparently only knows this as a result of dropping by his place without calling first, very coincidentally at the very moment she apparently knew he was entertaining a friend she also apparently knew he had a sexual history with. She shouldn’t have shown up unannounced, she essentially invaded his privacy just to get this information, and without some incredibly pressing reason, I don’t understand how she has any right to repeat it.
There’s nothing to suggest the boyfriend has done anything wrong whatsoever in this situation. Best Friend apparently took a job in ANOTHER COUNTRY, and they suspended their romance. Whether or not he and his college friend were “supposed to be just friends” is really none of anybody else’s damn business; why is there a judgy little remark about that? Maybe that changed when he wasn’t in a relationship anymore.
The LW stands to do FAR more harm than good here. Let this alone.
To paraphrase “Friends”: THEY WERE ON A BREAK!!!
Seriously though, how do you know your friend wasn’t getting herself some while overseas? It’s really none of your business either way.
Friend,
I’m torn between saying that I would totally want to know if my boyfriend about whom I cared a great deal didn’t love me enough to keep it in his damn pants for a few months while I was on another continent, “official”/”break” or no… and saying that yeah, it was a break, and if she didn’t want this to be a possibility she shouldn’t have agreed to go on a break (of course, being a veteran of a 1.5-year alternating trans- and intercontinental long-distance relationship, I might be biased). But she said she would rather be dumped than cheated on… this was a break-up, not a cheating-on. And it sounds like something in the break made the boyfriend (or the friend?) realize they wanted to try the long-distance thing, so maybe it’s not all bad. Now, if this were to happen after they were “official” again, that would be a different story entirely. I suspect either 1) the truth will come out eventually, and it’ll be fine because hey, it was a break and that’s what we agreed to; or 2) she already suspects something may have gone on during the break and won’t ask if she doesn’t want to know. The only way I might consider telling her would be if I found out the boyfriend flat-out lied to her about there being breaktime goings-on. But if he actually does care about her that is hopefully not the case.
Friends,
I think Sars’ advice is right on the money. You either should have brought the whole incident up to the boyfriend immediately (and you could have done it diplomatically and casually, by telling him “I came by earlier to drop this off, but you seemed to be busy at the time. I made a quick retreat because I wanted to avoid embarrassing you in front of your guest.”, then going from there), or you should keep your peace.
For all you know they both dated while on a break and it didn’t go well for either one, which is why they got back together and your friend is pretending like the break never happened. You do not know that he didn’t come clean about his date, so give him the benefit of the doubt. Besides, your friend is a grown-up, her boyfriend is a grownup, and any and all attempts by you to get in the middle of this would very much make you an undesired third wheel.
Is it possible your friend’s boyfriend got and gave her an STD? Sure, but your job as a friend is to be there for her should that be the case, and commiserate with her about what an ass he was for not telling her about his hookups, or at least getting tested. Anything else is really out of the boundaries of your friendship.
BTW, in the future if you drop something off at your friend’s house when she’s not there? Call first and ask when is a good time to drop by, even if you have keys to the place (I’d imagine it to be the case, from what you describe).
To Missing:
I can’t know for sure, of course, but I would be willing to bet money that your friend told her abusive husband about your conversations in the context of a fight. “Well, my friend says that you’re mean to me…” or whatever. And then abuse-boy has you tagged as the enemy.
I’ve had friends in abusive relationships, and they seem to develop this weird psychology of “if only I do X, he won’t get mad any more”. And they change this little thing, and that, and drop this friend and that, giving away bits of themselves chasing the impossible goal. I doubt you were thrown under the bus under duress. My guess it was done out of false hope or desperation.
If I sent her I note, it would say “I’m going to miss you. When (not if) you realize that giving up your friends and will not fix your husband’s abusive behavior, and you’ve left him, I’ll be waiting to take you out for a beer.” And I’d include one of those brochures on “recognizing the signs of abuse” and the number of her local women’s shelter. But it wouldn’t work :-(
Miss: You had me at “abusive husband.” I’m whole-heartedly behind Sars’s advice. Also: so what if she was writing that email under duress? If she personally genuinely needs to concentrate on her family and happy hunting, well… that seems to be pretty much that. If she was pressured into getting you out of the picture by her abusive husband, then she’s clearly not taking care of herself and needs to do that, and she’s not paying attention to you anyway, AND she’ll need a boatload of therapy before she can be a decent friend to you anyway. The only reply I can imagine is one of the “hope you get your shit together, but I’m not holding my breath” variety and movin’ on.
Friend: I realise that there’s a wave of epidemic proportions to tell everyone everything and, effectively: DON’T. I know a good number of polyamorous couples, many of which have a full disclosure policy – they date other people, they fuck other people, and they both know who’s dating/fucking who. I also know poly couples who have non-disclosure agreements, the most popular of which seems to be “no fluids, no phone numbers.” And that’s the couple’s thing to decide, and if this couple – even though you are besties with one of the friends in this couple – decided that they were ON A BREAK, that means that they were ON A BREAK. Yes, it’s all well and good to think “it felt like we were never on a break!” but that’s post-homecoming – during said break, they knew they were on a break. It might not be a bad thing to let the boyfriend know that you found him sleeping with someone else (and would appreciate never seeing that again, because: awkward) and you’re concerned about STDs, so please get that taken care of – if he’s actually a good guy, he’ll find a “just for good measure” reason for them both to get tested; if he’s not a good guy, he’ll assume that you’ll lord this over him, so he’ll figure out a way to get tested.
@Linda: It’s possible that the asshole husband came across evidence of their conversations — IM logs, emails — while doing some computer snooping, which would mean that Missing’s friend didn’t do anything to bring Missing into the equation. That’s the kind of crap abusers pull, but on the other hand, there’s no evidence either of that or of duress.
Missing, you say you have ways of getting a letter past her husband, but can you be sure it won’t fall into his hands afterward? Like, she leaves it in her desk, or throws it away without destroying it? If he’s a snooper — and again, I’ve got no evidence for that, it’s just a possibility — he might find it anyway and cause her even more trouble.
Whether by her choice or not, your friend isn’t able to be an actual friend to you right now, and you’ve invested a lot of time and energy into a relationship that isn’t going to give you any returns unless she fixes her situation, the probability of which is a) pretty low, unfortunately, and b) not under your control at this point. So… let her go.
@Bethany – no, the M.A. is not a terminal degree. A terminal degree is the highest degree awarded in a particular field, not the highest degree an individual has. It doesn’t matter whether a school considers the M.A. a stepping stone to a Ph.D., or not. It doesn’t matter whether the individual has “terminated” his/her time in school. If there is a higher degree available in the field, it is not a terminal degree.
@Elizabeth: You’re right; that’s possible. Excellent point. It’s one of those situations where it’s tough to know exactly what happened, but the solutions — or lack of solutions — seem to come out the same, sadly.
RE: Missing
“. . .this is a massive violation of the Girl Rules as I understand them. Girlfriend advice is confidential and really has no business being spread to husbands or boyfriends. (Is this just me?)”
I didn’t know there were such rules, and, even so, as others have suggested, the husband may be coercive, or a snoop, or both. You don’t what she said, or didn’t say, to him. Your anger at her over this may be misdirected.
RE: Friend
I’m with Kelly “They were on a break!” This is between your friend and her boyfriend.
I agree that in this case, Friend should just keep it to herself because “on a break” tends to come with an explicit or implicit understanding that other dating is allowed and doesn’t count as cheating. If I didn’t want the person I was “taking a break” from to see other people, I wouldn’t go on a break in the first place.
That said, I have had the exact opposite conversation with boyfriends as Sars described – if you slip up *tell me* right away and maybe we can work through it (or maybe not – I have no idea how I’d feel). But if you lie to me and I find out about it much later, especially through other means, we’re done. People always assume that confessing is done for the confessor only, and that it’s kinder for the other person not to know, but that’s not true for everybody. Personally, I think it’s much less kind to be lied to (even via omission) than to hear that you cheated on me but that you’re now giving me the choice of what to do with that information. I certainly don’t always think honesty is the best policy, and when it comes to third parties, staying out of it is usually the much better option, but with this particular issue, it’s the hiding and the secrecy and the not trusting me to do what I think is best with the data that bugs more than anything.
Token Liberal-Arts Chick: I generally wouldn’t think to put your degree on either, but if you are asked about why you don’t ALL THE TIME at work, even when they know what it is, maybe it is important to others that you put it on? I’m not going to claim to understand why, since I don’t work in that end of academia, but maybe to them it’s important. Especially if your supervisor thinks you should, that’s a big hint.
Missing My Girlfriend: oh, I hear ya. I have yet another friend in an abusive relationship (why yes, this one has been married for 20 years as well, but I haven’t known her that long) and I haven’t heard from her in awhile…who, me, nervous? Oh yes.
Odds are pretty high she wrote it under duress, possibly with him hanging over her/looking on. Also, I would bet that what John said happened. She broke Girl Code and now you are The Enemy and he has demanded you be abandoned. She shouldn’t have thrown you under the bus, but she did it.
She has already dumped you. She’d rather be “with her family” (and be abused) than the alternative. I’m sorry to say that this is over, and she’s chosen the abuse. I’m assuming there are children and that’s where the “family” bit has come in, so yeah, you’re not going to win that one. I feel sorry for her kids though, having an “intact” family sucks when Daddy screams at you all day. God knows my current friend’s kid wants her to leave.
It’s a really awkward walk to do when your friend is with an abuser. You have to be VERY CAREFUL about what you say (in case she tells him), and in the end she has to do all the work of leaving. And while she doesn’t leave, well, I’ve had to socialize all friendly-like many times with an abusive guy (in one case, I HAD TO CALL THE COPS ON HIM after he pitched her across my living room) pretending I was on his side so I wouldn’t get a letter like you got. For the record: it is uncomfortable, but works. You have to walk the tightrope for as long as she stays with him because if he finds out you’re The Enemy, and she’s not ready to leave, then you’re gonna be the one out on your ass. You can’t outright say, “LEAVE HIM! HE HITS YOU!” or whatever. Now, after 20 years of having to deal with the same shit and drama over and over and over, I don’t blame you for having said stuff like “leave him” before. It’s what reasonable people would do. But in the future, if this ever happens again with someone else, you need to be very careful about what you say. Abusers thrive on invading your boundaries/running them over with bulldozers, and you can’t be 100% sure she won’t cave and tell what you said under duress.
But…I wouldn’t contact her. If she ever leaves him, she’ll call you. If she never leaves, re-friending would just bring on the same drama again.
I don’t agree that kindness is better than honesty, if that kindness involves keeping hurtful secrets. All lies are bad lies, and I feel shitty even when I tell the small ones. Lying by omission like you’re recommending, Sars? No good.
All lies are bad lies
Officiously rigid generalizing isn’t that great either.
@natasha: I can think of SO MANY LIES that were good ones (e.g. the guy on a recent This American Life, who found out after his father’s death that his uncle was really his father (artificial insemination) and then found after his uncle’s death that it wasn’t him either. That guy could and would have happily gone to his grave without that truth.)
Regardless, @friend: Yeah, not your business. It sounds like what’s going on here is you friend did not really want to take a break, but either felt pressured (by bf, or friends, or whatever), or falsely thought she could handle it. Turns out she couldn’t. That sucks, but it does not change the circumstances or the understanding that her bf had going into the situation. He is not a cheater. And, if the understanding they had was that whatever ever happens when we’re apart is not to be discussed, then he isn’t a liar either. As far as STDs, unless you have reason to believe that he’s reckless and uncaring, leave it be.
I hate being lied to, but Friend’s situation is not about lying, not even by omission. It’s not about secrets, either. It’s about minding her own business.
In the extremely unlikely event that her friend were to ask “Do you know if my boyfriend had sex with anyone else during our break?” then, sure, she’d want to be honest and say “Well, I overheard him with X when I went to return something.” However, no one is asking her. It really is all right to have unverbalized thoughts.
I’m particularly cynical about these things, but I generally find defenses like “but she might get an STD! It’s a Health Issue!” to be cover for what’s really just shit-stirring. You tell yourself that it’s a noble goal (who doesn’t want to avoid an STD, after all?), but in effect? Not so noble at all.
It’s really not your business here. Even HIPAA would leave you out of it.
My theory is that keeping your trap shut gets a bad rap because nobody ever gets to explain how much better her life was because she never knew something. Because if you never know, then…you never know. And you never know you didn’t know, or that you were happier not knowing. So you never hear it from the other side. You never hear “I lived a long, happy, wonderful life, because my husband kept it to himself that he cheated on me on a single occasion that was never repeated, and I never found out, and if I had found out, it probably would have ruined my marriage and I would have been much less happy.”
“I’m particularly cynical about these things, but I generally find defenses like “but she might get an STD! It’s a Health Issue!” to be cover for what’s really just shit-stirring.”
So much word. I must be just as cynical, because that’s exactly what I thought – a thought likely helped along by the same questions Linda raised, such as what a funny coincidence that Friend happened to need to return something when this woman was visiting and happened not to call and happened to apparently walk into someone else’s house without knocking and/or waiting for someone to open the door.
Based on the information in the letter, he didn’t cheat. No one lied. This isn’t a moral issue. This is a mind-your-own-beeswax issue.
Missing, I think there’s another possibility here. Sometimes people who are being abused try to stand up for themselves, but are so insecure that rather than say “you have no right to crap on me,” they say “my friend xxx said that you are crapping on me and you should stop.” It’s not that they’re trying to throw you under the bus, it’s that they hope that the other person’s opinion might be taken seriously and that maybe if they can just get the abuser to _see_, then maybe they’ll stop.
But of course in this scenario the abuser never says “oh, of course. I hadn’t realized.” They just use the new information as yet more ammunition.
So I would say, try to be as forgiving of your friend as you can and realize that her behavior isn’t directed at you. People in abusive relationships aren’t really capable of thinking of anyone but themselves and their abuser. It’s infuriating, but it’s also very sad. If you can let her know that you will be there for her if she needs you, then maybe someday she’ll come back to you.
Well said, Linda!
Linda, I’m actually very happy to speak up in favor of Not Knowing. I was in a position where I went from Not Knowing something to Knowing it, and I would have been much happier if I hadn’t. So, at least in my experience, your theory is absolutely correct.
For Trying:
You are inventing drama where there is no drama, and trying to put yourself in the middle of someone else’s relationship. Why?
They were on a break. They both know they were on a break. Being on a break carries the inherent possibility of them both sexing other people.
Even if she FEELS like they were never on a break and were always together, that is not the reality.
She was not cheated on. He is not a cheater. He’s a guy who had sex while broken up from his ex, who then got back together with his ex.
Why would you go shit-stirring their current relationship by bringing up information gained while they clearly weren’t together?
Step out of this situation and ask yourself why you feel the need to invite drama into your life.
@attica – I’m generally there, but I personally *do* work as an HIV/STI educator, so even when I hear shitty, random rumours about how so-and-so has an STD or whatever, I’m all on the “let’s get tested!” bandwagon. That being said, I don’t go up to people all “so, your boyfriend is cheating on you, so you might want to get tested”/”the whole goddamned community thinks you have HIV – do you know that?” So, essentially: word.
@Jennifer (uh… the other Jennifer)… I agree with your advice to the Person Under the Bus. I think that there are definitely ways she can limit her involvement unless it’s asked for but I don’t think the abused is at fault nor that she is trying to be horrible to her lifelong friend. I think there’s anger there to work through but if she still loves her friend… I dunno. If it were me I would try to get through the bad feelings and if I still worried I would send the letter and just leave it open. It’s not her responsibility, but it is a choice she might be able to afford to make in order to help her pal.
Maybe I’m a little dense, but what is Sars’ email address? I can’t seem to find it on the site.
bunting at tomatonation dot com. It’s in the FAQ to the right.
Miss: I used to have a friend who was in an abusive relationship. the instinct is to try and help, but at the end of the day they won’t take help they don ´t want. And she did the exact same thing. she told him about my advice, and then her boyfriend tried to beat me up for “sticking my nose n his business”. it got uglier. i tried to stick around in case she needed help, but she justified herself by spreading lies all over campus about how i tried to steal him away from her and i was an untrustworthy slut.
no, maybe my “friend” was intensely fucked up, but in my experience:
you don’t even need to send the letter. just be thankful she initiated the breakup and keep your distance. unless she chooses to leave and does so, there is nothing you can do to help her, and you’re only putting yourself in danger.
Missing: As someone who has been, at different times, both the abused friend and the friend of the abused, I have come to the conclusion that relationship advice that amounts to “he’s a total jerk and you should leave him” almost NEVER helps anyone. The fact of the matter is, emotions cloud rational thought, and 99 times out of 100, the only person who can convince your friend that she’s in a bad relationship is your friend herself. Anything anyone else says, even if it’s what she wants to hear at the time she’s complaining, even if it’s abundantly obvious to every other human on earth how right you are, will not change her feelings towards her husband and will only make her think of you as “the one who always hated him” when the tide of the relationship turns.
I am certainly not suggesting that you should lie when a friend asks for advice, or that you should be shy about asking a friend if everything is okay, but I am suggesting that you should avoid dogging on a friend’s relationship, no matter how badly s/he is dogging on it him/herself. Make it clear you are there for her if she needs you, emphasize how awesome she is and how she deserves nothing but the best, and let her know that you hate seeing her unhappy. But affirming her complaints, no matter how valid, or telling her what you would do if you were in her situation, serves no purpose.
To anyone who thinks this is harsh or wrong: please ask yourself two questions: 1) Have I made a decision about the future of a relationship based on the advice of a friend? and 2) Have I ever thought to myself “our relationship is [i]different[/i], no one can really understand?”
Reading old posts, I’m compelled to ask — why did Friend have a key and walk into the apartment in the first place? Especially knowing Boy had the girl staying with him?