The Vine: June 8, 2012
I could really use some advice, because I’m not having a whole lot of luck with this on my own. My husband Charlie and I want to move our family from the southeastern U.S. to Europe, preferably somewhere in France, although we’re open to anything. Of course this hangs on my husband finding a job, which is the problem.
Charlie is in the information technologies field, making pretty good money working for the federal government. He’s applied for numerous jobs in France, Belgium, Germany, and England, with nothing better than “You’ve made the list of the top five applicants…we’ll be in touch if we decide to schedule an interview” as a response. As we’ve learned while doing our research, European countries, and France in particular, are known for their hesitance to hire Americans. So we’re trying to figure out what our options are.
Some important information:
- We don’t have a lot of savings, although we’re trying to save $500 a month
- We could potentially make a $40,000-$50,000 profit from selling our house
- We plan to sell most of our belongings before the move, both for extra funds and ease of moving
- We have three school-aged children (15, 13, 8)
- We have pets (three dogs, three cats) that we don’t want to leave behind
- We’ll probably do a short-term rental for a month or two followed by a long-term rental once we learn about the area in which we settle
One thing we’ve considered is Charlie taking a sabbatical from work, selling everything, and moving to France without a job — I know you can only stay in France on a visa for one year without a source of income, but we could live on the profit from our house and belongings while Charlie looks for work (he’s heard that it’s easier to get a job in France or Europe in general once you’re already there). If we did this, we’d head for either Toulouse or Grenoble, as these are two cities with a lot of high-tech industry. We’re giving this option serious thought in part because Charlie’s very unhappy at his current job, and we don’t like where we’re currently living, so we’re eager to start fresh.
We would like to do this while we’re still young and our kids are young enough to join us on an adventure (an adventure that we would prefer not to include homelessness, so). Can anyone offer any advice or personal experience?
Many thanks,
Ready for Adventure
Tags: Ask The Readers rando travel
I don’t know if Adventure Girl is still reading this, but I too will throw in my two cents.
Uprooting a family like that is very stressful for the kids, no matter how much preparation they have. My Mom married my adoptive Dad when I was 9 (he’s German) and we moved to Germany when I was almost eleven. I had a whole year at a German school in El Paso to learn German, plus tutoring every day after school. Even with all of that (and my gift for languages, since by that age I had already learned to speak English as my first language was Spanish)I WAS NOT REMOTELY PREPARED to attend school in another country. Quite a few countries in Europe have dialects, which Americans seem to think are just accents. No, they are much more difficult to understand, they are almost another language. So I arrived in Bavaria to find that I couldn’t understand what anyone was saying even with my year of German. I don’t know if the French have dialects too, but I’m thinking they do.
I spent seven years in Germany and I love the country, the people, the language (yes, I speak fluent Bavarian now), the culture, I consider myself almost as much a German as an American but that stress of being uprooted (even being told in advance) eventually caught up to me. Around 15/16 I started having nightly panic attacks, and that was before people talked about them or knew what they were. That lasted about three or four years. And it wasn’t honestly until I was around 28 that I finally figured out that my anxiety stemmed from the stress and the loss of control I felt as a kid.
It’s not fun being called “stupid” by the other kids because you didn’t understand something. Or to suddenly suck at math (and I never recovered from this, skills wise) because they do things differently. It’s not fun beinging held back a year because you weren’t already fluent when you got there. It wasn’t fair that, even though I was intelligent, all those setbacks meant that I could never attend a university. Those are things nobody thinks about when they want to go have an adventure. And my parents moved because they HAD to, not because they wanted to. My Dad was a German soldier and he had to go back. We eventually moved back to the U.S. so I could attend college here and I’m glad we did. I’ll always love Germany but I paid a serious price for this amazing experience.
Also, when I was told we were moving, I didn’t fight it. I was NINE! What exactly was I supposed to say? So even if the kids are not fighting it (I’m pretty amazed the oldest isn’t) it doesn’t mean they LOVE it. Others are right in saying it will be easier for the younger kids, they’ll learn the language quickly just playing with other kids or hearing it at school. But your eldest child will have a MUCH harder time at his/her age.
I really get what the OP is trying to do here. Trying to be the freewheeling adventurous family that just packs up and moves to France because it sounds “fun”. In a bygone era and in a better economy, perhaps things could have worked that way. But I think all the comments you have received are providing a reality check on the feasibility of your plan. I agree that the biggest red flag is the financial one–if you cannot be completely self-sufficient (including moving, visas, animal care, insurance and any taxes) for one year, I wouldn’t even consider it. You need a huge cushion of savings to undergo such a radical change of location and circumstance. And there will be plenty of unexpected expenses from day one.
Take a long vacation to Europe (if you can’t afford the vacation, you can’t afford to move there), and visit several different countries and get a feel for them. Then start saving like mad people. My parents (living in the US) wanted to buy a house/flat in London and live there part of the year during retirement. The market was so incredibly expensive, and the hassle of getting something as simple as a bank account set up made them give up and buy a condo in Manhattan. Yes, the notoriously expensive NYC was a much cheaper option for my well-off parents than trying to move overseas.
If you’re looking for excitement and culture, move to a large metropolitan area in the US. On my first afternoon living in the DC metro area, I encountered people speaking 5 different languages in one mall food court. You don’t need to incur the expense and stress of leaving the US to have a multicultural experience. :)
Hoo boy. I respect your sense of adventure, and normally I’d be right behind it, but this is a big bad idea.
I grew up in the US and spent eleven years living in Australia. I went there first when I was 21, on a study-abroad program, and fell madly in love with it. And eleven years later, almost to the day, I had to leave permanently because I couldn’t get residency sorted. I had a solid college degree from the US plus some strong local qualifications; I was eminently employable (and was consistently and securely employed throughout my time there); I had deep ties to the community; I was young, single, healthy, and a native English speaker. All of these things ostensibly mean it should have been easy, right?
Nope.
Let me be 100% clear about this: immigration departments are set up to keep people out, not to let them in. That might sound harsh or just plain cynical, but it’s my experience and the experience of many other people I know personally, all over the world. Even if you can negotiate the webs of paperwork and procedures on your own (which is extraordinarily hard to do, even in your native language), the amounts of money required will take your breath away. And that’s to do it for one adult: for two adults, three kids, and six pets? Good bloody luck, mate. And that’s just the initial paperwork; that’s not taking into account things like schooling, housing, language barriers, the isolation that comes from being brand-new in a different culture (which was way harder than I expected, even in a country that I loved and that has so many fundamental things in common with the US)…. You are setting yourself, and your family, up for a very disappointing, frustrating, and potentially damaging experience – all to go live in a country you’ve never even visited, whose language you barely speak well enough to read children’s books?! No. Just… no.
If you have your heart set on moving overseas, I would strongly second Ann’s suggestion to look outside Europe and try developing countries. I have friends who have done this with their (very young) children and found it to be relatively smooth, even easier in some ways than trying to negotiate European countries to which they have citizenship ties. You’ll still need to blow your timeline way out to ensure that you have time for you to save money, for your husband to find a job, and to get all of your needs taken care of; but you’ll at least be in a more secure position.
But if you’re insisting that you take all six pets or you don’t go? Stay in the U.S. Really. If you’re unhappy where you are now, by all means, move; but don’t attempt something as messy as trying to uproot everyone in this haphazard manner. If you still want a European experience, there are ways you can do that: there are house-swap programs and lots of international education programs for adults as well as kids; find a pet sitter and head off for the summer. If after two months you love it so much and you are so functional in the society that you can ALL realistically see yourselves living, working, and studying there? Then you start working your new connections in the area. But what you have right now is not enough to go on.
I’m sorry to be so blunt, but I’ve been through this and what you want is a fantasy. The reality is not going to work like you think it will. It’s a fucking rough go, and to put yourselves through that would be hard enough; but to put your children and pets through it is a bad bad bad bad bad idea.
My parents moved us to Thailand (from California) when we were 8, 12, and 14 (I was the 12yo). So, pretty much exactly where your kids are. We LOVED it. We all flourished. My brothers are both back living in Vietnam now, they love living overseas so much.
The financial stuff is definitely a concern, and I second other people suggesting cheaper places to live (southeast Asia was pretty amazing), but speaking from the kids’ perspective: I am still grateful, 22 years later, that my parents made that choice.
I live in western Canada, and I started full French immersion at the age of 4, and continued until I was 15. That means that almost all of my classes (baring things like English and gym) were taught in French. And I dropped out because after a decade, my French was simply still not good enough to excel in high school. And that’s Canada – everything I know about France is that their high school programs are tougher, and the language skills we prairie kids have would flunk us in “real French school”. French is HARD. Unlike Spanish, which I took in university, there are more exceptions that rules, and much is based on memorization. I mean, which sex is a table or a fork or a dreams? Unlike Spanish, you can’t look at the word and tell – it’s basically having to memorize the sex of every word in the entire language. And that doesn’t even start on verbs. In grade 10, we had to learn a tense used in fairy tales, that was similar but different to the other dozen tenses we already had to know, with it’s own insane rules and exceptions, and no way through but rote memorization of something kids growing up with the language would know intuitively.
Not to mention the difficultly of even things like math in a new language. I dropped from French math to English math, and spent the first year asking my seatmate what the hell everyone was talking about. Basic terms are so different, and by high school, the expectation is that you know stuff – no one explains what the Lowest Common Denominator is by high school. (PPCM in French, if I recall…)
Your youngest kids would probably be fine – grade school is a lot more forgiving. But your 15 year old? I’m sorry to be blunt but he is unlikely to pass French high school.
Oh, further complicating things, French is incredibly idiomatic. I can still read fairly fluently in French – as in, I can read a newspaper – but I can’t read, for example, a Cosmo magazine. Because almost every damn sentence is idiomatic and if you don’t grow up with that language, it makes no damn sense, because a literal translation means nothing.
To sum up, I agree with everyone up thread. This is a bad idea for so, so many different reasons.
I grew up in L.A., moved to the east coast after high school, and upon my divorce moved back to L.A. Do you know how much that cost me just to move across the country? One airfare for me, one for my cat; had to take cat to vet prior to be sure she was in good health and get proper papers in case anyone asked; put down $5k for an apartment (first, last, security blah blah blah), spent over $1k to transport my car, and over $4k to move my stuff (which really wasn’t that much as I downsized from a 3 bedroom townhouse to a 1 bedroom apartment). Easily over $10,000 just to move from D.C. to L.A., no passports/visas required.
The cost of moving an entire family, six pets included, across the pond is going to run in the thousands as well, and that’s just the moving part. The whole staying/getting a job/kids may be at a disadvantage because they don’t know the langauage well is just another ball of wax to deal with.
You’re also basing some of your financial “income” on a house that you haven’t actually sold yet. You have no idea if/when it will sell and if you will even make a profit on it, let alone how much that profit will be. When my ex and I separated, he gave me a lump sum in cash for my share of the house in exchange for me signing away my legal rights to it. Because he gave me my share up front in cash, I took a little less than I deserved and moved back to L.A. He put the house up for sale…and then proceeded to drop the asking price time after time after time until the price was so low, he barely made a profit and ended up making about as much as the smaller share he had given me. Point is, there is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever as to how much you will make off your house – yet you can’t really know if you can “afford” this international move without knowing how much money you have.
I, too, appreciate your sense of adventure AND your love of France as I’ve always wanted to travel there. Sometimes I think I may even retire there but that’s the future – that’s not now, with an entire family of kids with six pets. I think you should turn your desire into travel plans versus relocating. Take a family vacation to France! But please think long and hard about the realistic financials involved, the difficulties in getting the kids into school, the feasability of finding a rental for a large family and a gaggle of pets, etc.
Not to pile on, because I think everyone has already covered the financial and immigration difficulties involved (expat North American who’s lived in the UK for over a decade here and I echo everything that they have said).
However, one red flag that leapt out at me from your letter was “Charlie’s very unhappy at his current job and we don’t like where we’re currently living.” Those are very valid concerns, but neither is a reason to move to a foreign country where you have no job, no work permit and you don’t speak the language (a basic understanding is not going to cut it – an easy test is to rent some French movies and try to watch them without the subtitles – can’t be done without a good understanding of the language).
It sounds to me that the key is to find your husband a new job that he likes and will be happy with. You’re very lucky that the “where” of that new job can be secondary, and once he gets some job offers, you can figure out where is best to go. That might be Boston or it might be Jakarta. But adventure is in short supply for Americans in Western Europe right now.
The developing country suggestion is actually very good: many of them have been barely affected by the crisis (some even thrived in it) and they sometimes don’t have enough qualified people in certain technological fields and need to hire foreigners. However, do not assume that the immigration stuff will be any less difficult… it really depends on a lot of factors.
Generally when on a tourist visa you are not allowed to apply for jobs.
The unemployment situation here in europe is dire, in France its 10% so its not surprising they go with local candidates rather than the expense of someone who needs sponsorship. Does it need to be France? Companies Germany and the Netherlands regularly advertise jobs with UK agents so more prepared to hire from outside the country, although outsite the eu is always more problematic.
Do you have any european grandparents that might make getting a visa without a job easier? Once youre okay in 1 EU country its far easier to migrate again.
You should read “French kids eat everything”. Not only about picky eating, it’s about a half-American, half-French family that moved to France for a year. They were thinking about staying, but ultimately despite deep family ties and one parent actually being French they found the culture shock too much to overcome. I thought it was interesting anyway, and pertinent to your idea. Don’t bother visiting as “practice” for living there though. Visiting somewhere is usually different from living there (especially true in France and Belgium, can’t speak to Germany)
You should also read “Third Culture Kids”, because if you stay long enough this will describe your kids. I really (really) wish my folks had managed our transition “home” better.
Also, based on my admittedly 15 years ago experience your teens will have a hard time in Belgian schools, unless you are going to one of the ex-pat private schools. Math / Science is done in a completely different order, and the school systems emphasize completely different goals. If your kids aren’t fluent in the target country language (since you apparently are looking at Germany as well, I’m guessing not!) the chances of having to repeat at least one grade are very, very good if you try a local school. Converting foreign grades for higher education also adds a level of complexity to your life that I don’t think your family appreciates.
Thirding, fourthing, whatever the recommendation of expanding your search. Have you looked at the Middle East? I worked in Doha, Qatar for two summers and it was an AMAZING experience. Also, American technology workers seem to be in demand there and are generally paid QUITE well, provided housing, etc. I worked for an American university and my housing was free, I had no bills, I was paid well, AND when I showed up? Somebody had stocked the fridge in my furnished apartment. Depending on the employer they often include business class airfare back to the states twice a year. There are English international schools there, too.
Recent mall fire aside (which apparently the US news has been quiet about)it’s fairly liberal place, very safe, and there are some really beautiful parts of the country. Getting to live and work there was easily a highlight of my personal and professional life. Plus, you’re conveniently located to travel to Europe and Asia.
The one downside is that the expat population turns over about every 2 to 4 years. Also: Summer. Hot. So, so hot. Hot and humid. I feel like I need to say this again: hot.
Developing countries may be easier (I’m working in a developing country now) but the lack of a substantial savings is worrisome. Things are always more expensive than you think, especially if you have a family. I don’t want to dissuade you from your goals but you need to plan for the worst case scenario, especially financially.
I just wanted to give you some advice from someone that has moved to several different countries, with and without work permits and work visas. I also lived in France (illegally) for several years.
DO NOT move your entire family unless your husband finds a job first. As aab indicated above, preferrence tends to go to EU citizens. It is also EXTREMELY difficult to change a long-stay/tourist visa to a work visa. I am referring specifically to France. If indeed your husband finds a company willing to hire him, after you’ve all arrived, the company has to show that they need to hire your husband before a French citizen and then before an EU citizen. I actually tried to do this (twice) 15 years ago, but did not succeed. I was working in a company that gave me a contract, and even indicated the required but unofficial “minimum” salary, but both applications were rejected. I was about to marry a friend when I decided to move elsewhere.
Also, you have to take into account the current unemployment situation in Europe, and in France it’s increasing by the minute. I’m in Spain right now, and you can imagine how many spaniards, especially young people, are going north to try to find work.
Furthermore, you will not be able to enroll your children in schoold without a residency permit “carte de séjour”. You also won’t be eligible for Social Security (I think).
The only way I see that you might be able to obtain a resident visa is if you apply as an entrepreneur. That is, you are starting a company in France… maybe a tech consulting firm… something along those lines. In this case, your husband would get a residency visa, and you and your kids as well. This would NOT allow him to work at another company and you also have to take into account that running a business in France can be very expensive due to taxes and social security.
Your best bet is to go to your nearest consulate. I think you’ll quickly realize that this might not be possible, at least not legally and with your kids in school.
I second aab’s suggestion that maybe your husband go alone first to test the waters…. at least he would have tried. I don’t mean to sound discouraging, but the situation in Europe at the moment does not make it easier for people wanting to move here.
Good luck whatever you decide!
Since the OP has written in with her family’s reasons for moving, I wanted to add something I didn’t say before. I don’t have any frame of reference for the strength of your reasons, but as someone who had eight addresses in five states in ten years, I can tell you this: wherever you go, there you are. What I mean is, you’re still you, and it’s still your life, no matter what you’re putting in the zip code box. Most of life’s problems will slip right into your suitcases and still be there when you unpack, even if you’re not moving just to get away from them. (I wasn’t, but I thought I might be able to anyway, like maybe they’d give up and go bug someone else, and: no.) Doing this, or even moving to a different part of the country, will totally change your life, no question. But it will not also solve all your problems at the same time or even give you a complete set of new ones. I think that sounds harsher than I mean it too, but it’s sort of important to remember. Whatever you decide, good luck.
I am a USian who lived in Germany for 4 years and now lives in Norway for the past 2.5 years. The easiest/most affordable/most sensible way to move is after your husband has found a job. Any company who wants to interview him will first do so over phone/skype, and then if he is the top candidate they will pay to fly him for the interview. When he has a job, the company will pay for your move and help you find an apartment, deal with immigration authorities, find schools, etc. I encourage you to add Norway to your list of potential countries: the economy is strong, unemployment is around 2 %, quality of life is very high, there is demand for people in the IT sector, and it is easy for highly-skilled immigrants to navigate the immigration system. If your husband does not find a job in Europe, your oldest child in high school can move to the country of his choice for a one-year exchange program and the rest of the family can visit him. This is very common in Northern Europe and will be a tremendous experience for him- the younger children can follow suit when they are in high school if they so choose. The disadvantages of this cited by others- he may fall behind in some subjects and will struggle mightily with the new language- are valid, but many, many high schoolers choose to live abroad for one year anyway and are thankful for it.
Another big plus about Norway is that most everyone speaks English and (I don’t know for sure but) they seem very friendly to Americans – at least when you compare them to the rest of Europe.
Cost of living is high there, but that’s the biggest downside I see.
If he ends up getting a job there first, then you can of course negotiate for tuition for your children so they can continue at school in English or at least with lots of help.
I’m an foreign service specialist with the State Department. This was suggested as a possible solution for the OP. The vast majority of foreign service specialists are, well, not in Paris. If you really want the overseas experience and are happy with that experience being in Abuja or Tashkent or Tegucigalpa, it’s a fantastic job. But it’s not a job to take because you want to live in western Europe because initially that’s quite unlikely to happen.
And moving overseas without a job seems like an exceedingly poor idea. The rule of thumb I learned is that the State Department pays $250K in addition to salary for an overseas employee and family. With the size of your family and the high-cost location, I would expect that to be a low figure.
Not sure if Adventure Girl is still reading this thread, but I wanted to point out one detail that clearly indicates you don’t have enough cash to do this move at this point in your lives. You noted that a round trip ticket to Europe for your husband to interview would use up a “considerable” amount of your savings for the move. If that’s the case, dear god you do not have the scratch for this. Put another way – if a single plane ticket to Europe will make a serious dent in your savings, your projected savings figure is off by a full order of magnitude.
I hope you and your family can come up with a way to have some adventure and change things up to your liking. But I have to agree with the majority here that moving everyone to France, now, is not the way to do it.
Not sure ANYONE is still reading, but in case Adventure Girl is … I spent my formative years as an expat in Abu Dhabi and would highly recommend the Middle East as a worthwhile family adventure. I’m not going to restate what everyone else has said about the economy in Europe, etc., but have you and your husband looked into the UN/int’l orgs? I’m an American, currently living in the Netherlands working for the UN. I’m not sure what exactly your husband does, but there are international courts in The Hague, Netherlands (~ 45 mins from Amsterdam) that all have IT departments; the UN has its European HQ in Geneva; and there are other UN-affiliated offices in Vienna, and probably a few other locales that I’m forgetting right now. The benefit of the UN is that it doesn’t matter that you’re not an EU citizen.
Just stay focused and never underestimate the power of luck. I cold-emailed a bunch of companies before moving to France and introduced myself. Many companies don’t post jobs and they don’t know they need you until you prove it to them.
I second what everyone else has said here. The idea of moving, lock stock and barrel to a country you have never even been too is a bit out there. I’m not going to repeat what others have said, but I will latch on to the whole idea of learning French online and from children’s books. That will NOT be sufficient. I grew up in Canada, went to French immersion all through my schooling and continued to take courses during and after university. I visited Paris and Bordeaux last fall and had no trouble getting around, but I know that visiting and living are two different things. And this is from someone who uses French every day at work. The level of fluency you will require to live and work there will require a huge amount of time and effort. And believe me when I say that if your French is not up to snuff, you will be dismissed by the locals.
Look, I think it’s lovely to want to experience and expose your children to other cultures, but aside from the expense of this enterprise I think you are setting yourself up for a very difficult and lonely existence in a strange country. I think the suggestions for an extended visit are great ones.
Whatever you decide, I hope you find the right solution for you. Good luck.
I’m always late to the party, damn it!!
Adventure, I am also an expat living in Belgium via my husband’s job with a major pharma. I can tell you from experience that this was an incredibly complicated move, even with all the support from the company and all financial concerns considered and built into the contract (this included two cats – my husband’s entire career depended on my finding a suitable house for the cats!)
I was an ex-pat child, growing up in Nairobi, Kenya, and I was an international student, attending college in Switzerland for 3 years. I thought I was more than prepared to live in Europe, especially since our kids are grown and out of the house. I wasn’t worried about the culture shock or really even the language – I have enough French to communicate. But I gotta tell ya…this move would have been a complete disaster if my marriage were not ROCK SOLID (I’m not implying that yours is not…) My husband and I, up til recently, were each other’s social life. Even with the huge ex-pat communities here in Belgium, it’s difficult to make friends – actually, I should say ESPECIALLY here in Belgium, because a lot of people are on temp assignments with the EU or NATO and as soon as you get to know them, they move.
Europe is EXPENSIVE. I get two home leaves paid for by the company each year, and they’re basically glorified shopping trips for me. Clothing, food, housewares…everything here costs double or triple what it costs in the states. Had I taken this into account prior to moving from the states, you can bet I would have loaded that shipping container up with all sorts of stuff for future use.
Look…the upside is that it’s awesome and we travel everywhere and have tremendous disposable income and great health care…BUT…we have a major corporation backing us up and my husband is a somewhat big cheese, so it all looks great. What you’re contemplating looks and sounds wonderful and romantic and exciting. The reality is that it can be isolating, scary, weird, and annoying…(don’t even talk to me about customer service in EU..it doesn’t exist). Oh, and don’t forget the 48% taxes we pay – with NO loopholes.
If you want to do this, networknetworknetwork until husband finds cuushy job with huge company. THEN make your move.
If you want more info, please feel free to email me at bdywrks@comcast.net
–Pam