The Vine: May 20, 2008
Sars,
Help me.Please.I need to know what to do about my sister.I’m scared for her, and in the meantime, she’s driving me nuts.
The background:she’s in her mid-twenties; she’s always had a conflicted relationship with my mother (my sister was a difficult adolescent; my mom was depressed in those days; the two of them are very, very alike); she started dating at fifteen and since then has had maybe a year as her longest span between serious boyfriends.
She’s always been very stubborn, and very secretive about her feelings and sometimes her actions.We used to be close, but distance (I moved to the other side of the country) and her disinclination to talk about her life or feelings with me have come between us.
Anyway, so she’s dating This Guy.Has been for about a year.He’d been a friend of hers for a while, and I had met him at various events, and thought he was all right.Initially, after they started dating, I still thought he was all right: he seemed to be paying attention to her and listening to her opinions and to realize how amazing she was, which is what I look for in the men my sister dates!
The next time I was home and interacted with them, things were not so great; he was acting like almost all of the men she has ever dated: he was Right About Everything, and what he said was the Way Things Should Be.He also snapped at her about doing a task, and got into an argument with my mother (which, to be fair, my mother contributed her share to).
Since then, I’ve spent a little time with the both of them together (because any time that we have as sisters, he has to be included in), and he’s back on his good behavior, but I’m really disturbed by a lot of changes in her.
First, she argues with my mom a lot — more than she has since she moved out — and the observations she makes have little basis in reality (she says my mother spent a whole party yelling at her in front of her friends, which didn’t happen — I was there, so I know first-hand; there are other examples).
More alarmingly, she has nearly erased the word “I” from her vocabulary — every activity she does is “we.”She used to be interested in a multitude of things: art, martial arts, playing music, a foreign language that she speaks, tech news, books, video games. Now, she has dropped all of those activities, except for going to the gym with Boyfriend, who is acting as her personal trainer; she has a new desire to become a bodybuilder.He’s also in charge of regulating their diets and nutrition.
She’s spending a lot of time hanging out with Boyfriend’s Friends, who are high up in a local subculture scene; she’s recently ditched all of her old friends, claiming they’re “shitheads” (having met them, I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, but it still worries me that she is no longer talking to anyone who was friends with her before they started dating).
She is also developing his food allergies — she gets sick to her stomach, and he tells her that it’s X food (he has several intolerances), and therefore she now claims to be intolerant of X along with him.
The last time I was in my hometown, we went out for an evening.She was very concerned that I meet and like her new friends (the ones high up in the scene) — Sars, the one guy she was most eager to introduce me to doesn’t shower.She also was acting incredibly tentative, trying hard to assure me that everyone I was meeting (for 30 seconds, in a club) was really nice, very eager to run up and show that she knew them, and…again.It didn’t seem like my smart, beautiful, stubborn, ass-kicking little sister.
The other part about this, the part I haven’t told my parents because I can just imagine the explosion, is that I suspect she’s in a 24/7 BDSM relationship with this guy.They have a fetish photo of them that they have framed and hung up in the house, and they joked about it with me the last time I was over to spend time with her (she is collared and leashed, on her knees, gazing adoringly at him).
She has also been wearing a chain underneath her underwear for at least the last several months — her jeans have ridden down once or twice, and my mother spotted it, and then I did.I asked her about it; she said it was “just a belt,” so she’s not willing to talk to me about it.
I’m not ideologically opposed to BDSM, just — all of me is screaming, NOT WITH THIS GUY.He has too much to prove, he has to be Right all of the time, and she shouldn’t be getting lost in his ideas of who she should be.
She doesn’t even look happy, that’s the kicker.She told my father that this is “the happiest she’s ever been,” but she hardly smiles anymore.
I’m just not sure what to do.I feel like, intentionally or not, this guy has driven her away from everybody who used to be her friend; he’s also managed to alienate my entire family, down to my grandmother. And she’s turning into a female replica of him.
I don’t feel like I can talk to her about this — I talked to her about her last boyfriend, once, but she just told me I was wrong about him, and that was that.I’m pretty sure that it would be a horrible idea to express how fully I don’t like this guy, and might drive her further away (because, of course, I can’t possibly understand).
My parents and I are trying to keep lines of contact with her open, to be polite about him (although we none of us can really manage congenial), but we just don’t know what the best thing to do is, and the stress of it all is wearing on us.
If this were an acquaintance, I would have walked away by now; if it were a friend, I could hash it out, safe in the assumption that she’d at least listen to me.But it isn’t, it’s my sister, and I love her, and she has never listened to me, and I don’t expect her to start now.
Besides, every time I call her, it’s on speakerphone, and he’s in the room.
Looking for a strategy, or at least some tactics
Dear Strat,
The crux of the problem is in this sentence: “It’s my sister, and I love her, and she has never listened to me, and I don’t expect her to start now.”
Boyfriend sounds like a controlling tool, but I think the real issue here is that you think of your sister as, in your words, “stubborn” and “ass-kicking,” and that’s…not really who she is.Which she has repeatedly shown you, by dating one guy after another who’s Right About Everything, bosses her around, et cetera.
In other words, your focus, from what I can tell, is on getting your sister back to who she really is, a woman with opinions and friends and so on and so forth, but…I don’t think there’s any “back to.”I think this is who she is.
Not that she can’t change, or do better than these dudes; not that you should just give up on her.But you need to direct your first strategy at yourself, not at her, and it needs to involve accepting that your sister, as much as you love her, is an adult who has made certain choices, and may not live up to your hopes for her no matter how dearly you hold them or how much better they seem to you than her hopes for herself.
You can certainly talk to her in a general way about the relationship, and express to her that you want her happiness, but if she’s not happy, she should confide in you — you’re there for her.(You should also make it clear that you would like some alone time with her, in person and on the phone.Putting you on speaker is childish and unacceptable, and about that, you need to put your foot down pronto; if he really can’t bear for her to have a conversation he can’t hear, well, tough, because it’s a privacy issue for you.)
But you need to decide whether it’s more important to express that you think Boyfriend stifles your sister, or whether you want to continue fostering a close relationship with her — and it doesn’t really sound like it’s that close right now anyway.It sounds strained, and like you don’t respect her.Telling her straight out that, while you don’t judge her, you think Boyfriend is bossing and isolating her; you don’t think his friends are any big whoop; and you support her right to engage in BDSM, but you hope she’s maintaining some boundaries with the guy, because she seems unhappy and on edge — yeah, she may play the “it’s me and Boyfriend against the world, YOU DON’T GET IT” card, but maybe she needs to alienate the entire family in order to get it.
Or, as I said before, maybe there’s…nothing to get.Maybe your sister actually is this somewhat immature, easily-led person.I know it’s hard to accept that possibility, or to let go of her, at least a little bit, if it seems evident that she’s always going to choose the guy over the family.
But whether you bite your tongue about the guy, or get in her face about it and she cuts you off, the best tactic for you and your parents — not to influence your sister, but to keep from driving yourselves bazoo with this — is to try to get right with the idea that who your sister is may not be who you want her to be, or think she is.
Hi Sars,
I have a fashion-wedding-etiquette question for you and your readers.The short version: is it still considered rude to wear red to a wedding?
The long version (with every additional detail that may matter) is as follows.I’m invited to a wedding at the end of May and I want to wear a red cocktail dress that I already own.However, a friend mentioned offhand recently that you should never wear red to a wedding, and I know I’ve heard that before (along with never wearing white, or black).Is wearing a red dress still considered bad manners?I know black is now acceptable at every wedding I’ve gone to in the last 10 years — and there have been many.
If it matters, the wedding is in the NYC suburbs and most of the guests will be from the area, the couple and the guests other than family will be in their late 20s (as am I), it’s a reform Jewish wedding though I am not Jewish (but I know about being appropriately covered in temple, and tend to err on the conservative side for religious ceremonies anyhow), and the bridesmaids are wearing green.
I’ve been friends with the groom since high school but I do know and like the bride and I would be shocked if she cares about what I wear to her wedding.
The red dress is wedding-appropriate and I wouldn’t hesitate to wear it if it were blue or green or black.But it is red (not the brightest red I’ve ever seen, but certainly not muted in any way).I have another dress I could wear if red is inappropriate, but I like the red dress better and frankly, after coming up with different responses from my friends I’m curious about the consensus of you and your readers.Is red still an etiquette mistake?
I want to be red in the dress but not in the face
Dear Red,
My rules of thumb for wedding attire for guests are as follows: 1) you are not the bride, or in the wedding, and therefore nobody cares, but 2) if you think somebody might care, or if you care enough that you’d worry about it on the day of, wear something else.
I don’t think it’s an etiquette mistake any longer, although no doubt a number of readers will clutch their pearls in the comments and wail that it’s a huge faux pas — but rules of etiquette such as this one (if in fact it’s a rule) don’t exist to make anyone feel bad.Quite the opposite: they exist so that everyone knows what’s expected, and so that nobody has to feel silly or like she did something wrong.
In this case, you don’t know what’s expected, and that being said, I would not wear the red dress, just to save yourself (and anyone at the wedding who might take exception to the red) the aggro.If it’s a nighttime wedding, or the dress is a pattern and not solid read, blah blah I can come up with any number of “if”s that may mean the dress is more or less appropriate, depending.
But I just don’t think you want to devote that much time to it.Yeah, the dress looks better than others, but again, what you wore is not what anyone will, or should, remember about the wedding.Pick an outfit you won’t feel even a little bit like you have to explain.
This may be a completely ridiculous question, but: I don’t get what “What exit?” is supposed to mean. I know it’s one of those things that makes past and present New Jerseyans roll their eyes all, ha ha, never heard that one before, but what does it MEAN?
I really can’t come up with any explanation whatsoever.
They don’t teach us this stuff in the Midwest
Dear Mid,
New Jersey has a lot of highways, the most famous (and notoriously ugly) of which is the Jersey Turnpike.That’s what “Which exit?” refers to…I assume.It doesn’t really make sense to a Jerseyan, because at least in North Jersey, there are half a hundred highways it could mean…and a non-Jerseyan doesn’t know any of them, and wouldn’t know what the exit numbers of the Turnpike mean, either, so why make the joke.
Not that anyone really expects an answer to the “Which exit?” question, I guess; it’s just a way to make Garden Staters feel bad about the place.So, it means the Turnpike, but at the same time, it really doesn’t mean anything.
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette rando the fam
I don’t understand the context of “which exit?” Is it something someone asks you when you tell them you’re from Jersey?
“Where are you from?”
“Jersey.”
“Oh. Which exit?”
Like that?
Red – I’ve worn red to many weddings with nary a side-eye received. I was raised in the South with wedding etiquette practically distilled in the water, and I’ve never even heard this rule. Is it a New England thing? I think appropriate fit and silhouette is way more significant than color, so just wear what you feel best in. For me, that is usually red!
Okay, funny story about the whole “What exit?” issue. I am from South Jersey (near the beach, where we made fun of the northern nj people for saying “down the shore”) and have lived in North Carolina for a little over five years. My friends are great but love to make Jersey jokes, which I laugh at, because, c’mon it is funny to see southerners try to speak in what they think is a Jersey accent. The best one of which is “Oh, you’re from Jersey? What exit?” “F**k You! That’s what exit.” Because they watched too much Sopranos and think we all just say FU to everyone all the time.
I have always assumed that the joke of “What exit?” was that everybody in Jersey lives right off a highway. It’s not a very good joke, but that’s what I always assumed the joke was. That, like…before it was true that practically everybody lives in fairly close proximity to a highway with exits, it was considered HI-larious that according to this joke, all of New Jersey was essentially the Turnpike with people clumped around it.
I didn’t say, I repeat, that it was a GOOD joke.
It’s funny, the first time I ever heard the “What exit?” thing was in college – the University of Richmond had a high concentration of people from NJ and “outside Philadelphia” in the early ’90s – and it was always from one NJer to another. I can’t imagine someone not from NJ saying that as a joke; wouldn’t you just sic your Mob friends on him? ;-)
Hee, for some reason I picture Red’s dress as something Joan Collins would not only wear, but pair with a black hat with an enormous brim, a large flower broach with feathers in it and a black fan. She’d march in late to a sea of scandalised onlookers and that thought is bringing some cheer into my otherwise dreary morning.
If you do decide to wear the dress and then feel uncomfortable about it, comfort yourself with a story of a wedding I recently went to and think at least this didn’t happen to you. A woman turned up wearing a dress made of the same highly distinctive patterned material as the bride’s dress. To make matters worse, the quite high maintence, quite well known designer of the dress, who had given the bride the dress as a wedding present, was also there and started demanding the bride’s work friends to find a cardigan to cover the woman’s dress up. They kind of shrugged and ignored her
Bride thought the whole thing was hilarious and had to convince the mortified woman that she didn’t need to go home and change, because the wedding was so not about her dress.
I was just at a wedding where this one girl was wearing a truly awesome bright red dress, and it was far less noticeable than I would have expected. Some people complimented her on it when they first saw her (like how everyone was complimenting everyone on their clothes), but once everyone was seated or milling around or dancing, it wasn’t like a giant beacon or anything.
On the red dress…
I read somewhere that, way back when widows wore black for x amount of time, they (of course) wouldn’t want to wear black to a wedding, so they would wear red, and that’s where the custom of not wearing red to a wedding comes from: it means you are a widow.
So my vote is wear the red dress if that makes you feel good… if the above story is true, it’s a silly and outdated custom, and we shouldn’t abide by it.
It’s 2009. You can wear red to a wedding, as long as you’re not obviously trying to steal the show from the bride (like when Liz Hurley wore a cut-to-the-crotch dress that showed her leopard print thong to her best friend’s wedding). The only reason I’d not wear it is if you’re going to worry this much about such a non-issue, because then you won’t enjoy yourself.
My etiquette rule is: If Miss Manners doesn’t have a problem with it, I don’t have a problem with it. I have been reading even more Miss Manners than usual since I got engaged, and to the best of my knowledge she has made not a peep about people not being allowed to wear red to a wedding, whereas she is VERY vocal on the rule forbidding guests to wear black to a wedding. I think this is an etiquette rule that has fallen by the wayside. (Not that I follow Miss Manners in everything – my invitations will have reply cards, which she hates – but if she is okay with something, I feel comfortable being okay with something.)
Besides, red is a color of weddings/celebrations in some cultures. Black is supposedly taboo because it’s a color of morning (across different cultures, I believe, but I could be wrong about that); red is not (again, to the best of my knowledge). I’d wear the red dress. I’ve been to quite a few weddings in the NYC suburbs; half of the women appeared to be wearing black. If they can get away with that, red should be utterly inoffensive. (I confess – I have worn black to a wedding. Don’t tell Miss Manners!)
As a central-Jerseyan, I always thought “What exit” helped you place how far North/South someone really was. There are a lot of midsized towns and cities in Jersey that people don’t know by name, so saying you live outside X doesn’t necessarily help. On the Garden State Parkway, the northmost exits are high numbers and the southmost exits are low numbers, so by asking which exit someone lives off of, I can gauge how far away they really are, things they’re near, etc.
@Strat – Sars is spot-on (as usual). ITA that your sister is, perhaps, a different sort of bird than you’d rather her be. It does take all kinds.
However.
My own ‘gift of fear’ is sending up red flags all over the place re: this dude. You haven’t mentioned any kind of abuse that you’re aware of, but his controlling, isolating behavior is classic abuser M.O. Plus he could be mistreating her, calling it BDSM, and making her feel prudish / insensitive to his needs / repressed about it.
IME, staying open and available for her is the best interference you can run. (I’m assuming) you want to be the first person she turns to when this goes sour and staying engaged in her life now, as uncomfortable as it is, may be your best way to ensure that. You don’t want him to hide her away from you, too.
And perhaps a ‘Gift’ from Mr. Gavin DeBecker wouldn’t be too forward, either.
Red: I wore red to a wedding and no one cared; I’ve seen it worn at weddings and not cared. I didn’t know this was a rule. (I have a rule for myself about wearing black to weddings: I skip it unless the wedding is black tie and/or at night.) I think the only time people are going to whisper about what is worn to weddings is if it’s too casual, lends itself to “wardrobe malfunctions,” is very similar to what people in the wedding are wearing, or, in the case of one wedding I went to, if you wear an open-backed dress with a regular bra (and a totally mismatching one at that; dress was black and white print, bra was purple). It was NOT CUTE when Carrie Bradshaw did it; it is not cute when anyone does it.
Anyway, in your situation, Red, I’d wear the dress, but if you’re going to worry about it to the point where it detracts from your ability to have fun at the wedding, wear something else.
After reading Red’s letter, I have Loretta Castorini in my head: “And some day you’ll drop dead, and I’ll come to your funeral in a red dress.” Which is not really all that helpful, I realize.
Wear what makes you feel most comfortable, Red, and I’m sure no one will look askance. Unless they’re the sort that really like to do that of thing at a wedding, in which case you’ll be performing a minor public service.
I think you should wear the red dress if you really love it. I went to an autumn wedding last year (I don’t go to many weddings) and carefully picked out a blue dress I loved with brown heels and a brown bag so I could avoid wearing any black. Then I saw several people who wore long sleeved black dresses. With black tights and shoes. And black jewelry. So I decided in future not to worry about that stuff.
Lisa- I live in northern Delaware, and I like “down the shore” because it can sum up where someone’s going. “We’ll be at the beach this weekend” means somewhere in Delaware, and “We’ll be at the shore” is definitely New Jersey.
I’ve never heard the red dress rule. And would still avoid black or white unless the invite specifically said it is a black and white wedding. But I’m terribly stodgy. I’d wear the dress I feel most comfortable in. You won’t look like the bride (or a bridesmaid) and you can’t possibly steal the show unless it’s a frontless red dress.
Totally with everyone above on the red dress issue–our friends wore red, black, and everything in between to my recent evening wedding and pretty much everyone looked fabulous. I wouldn’t worry about it, unless it’s going to stress you out. No offense, but nobody remembers what anyone else wore besides the bride, and maybe the bridesmaids, unless it’s completely over-the-top scandalous.
As far as the sister goes, the author mentions that her sister is in her mid-twenties. Not to make excuses for her sister, but I was still not the world’s best decision-maker at that age, and was still floundering somewhat for an identity and comfort level with myself. I finally came to my senses, stopped dating the losers, and started deciding to do something with myself. Her sister may very well have kicked ass in her teens, but started to drift somewhat in her twenties, trying to decide what she wants to do with her life. This could be a temporary stop on the way to her actual adult identity.
Or not, but let her know that you care about her, and are there if she needs anything.
For me, the “What exit?” thing is annoying, but not nearly as annoying as someone saying, “Ah, Joisey, eh?” when they JUST heard you pronouncing it correctly.
Ugh.
I have heard the red dress rule, but I always take “red dress” to be a stand in for any kind of really attention grabbing dress. I think the stereotypical trying-to-steal-attention outfit is a shiny, low cut red dress, but I was at a wedding last year where one of the brides friends wore a bright yellow dress that was…..extremly revealing and inappropriate. It seemed like the equivalent of a “red dress” to me.
@Mr. S: Agh, “Joisey.” Not how the natives pronounce it, people.
Totally with Sars on everything (as per usual)
@Strat: Oh, SERIOUSLY. I have a lot of friends in the BDSM community, some “collared” (most not), and… ugh. This is or will turn into exactly one of two things: your kick-ass sister is a full-time sex slave and That’s Just Her Thing or she’s going through a string of abusive relationships and being stubborn about that. Either way, you have to demand YOUR boundaries (again, echoing Sars) and she’ll continue her stubborn way of being a sex slave or she’ll continue her stubborn way of being in abusive relationships until she realises that something has gone too far. And really, being a full-time sex slave, even as a sibling, doesn’t *have* to be creepy – she just appears to be making it creepy.
My understanding is that it’s funerals at which red is considered inappropriate, because it’s too happy a color. If you’re glad the person is dead, you don’t care about your karma, and you want to do the opposite of pay respects, you wear red to a funeral.
Meanwhile, I didn’t know anything about red at weddngs. My understanding is that black and white are what you’re supposed to avoid at weddings. You also should avoid anything so flashy or so outrageous as to take heaps of attention from the bride … ESPECIALLY if you will be in the posed pictures. So, the mother of the groom should avoid wearing a fuschia dress that is cut down to her hoo-ha if the bridesmaids have on navy blue. But a guest in a red dress? No big deal, I say.
If it’s an otherwise nice dress that happens to be red, and you won’t make every head in the church turn toward you and gasp, and you’re not doing it purposely to steal the bride’s thunder, you should be fine.
Re black dresses at weddings: I say it’s not that they are acceptable, it’s that so many people started flauting the guideline and lazily reaching for the LBD already in their closet that the rule mavens have given up. I’ll let a black print dress slide or *maybe* a black dress with something very colorful over it, but a plain black dress? I feel you could try to make a bit more of an effort to dress for the occasion — you can find something flattering in one of the other 18 skillion colors out there. A wedding is one of the ultimate happy occasions; I don’t understand why you would dress for it as if you are attending a funeral.
But, of course, nobody listens to me. Sigh.
I think the What Exit thing is all Joe Piscopo’s fault, but I can’t be sure. But for good measure: Damn you Piscopooooo!
Wedding horror story. Years ago I went to my then-girlfriend’s sister’s wedding — it was a second marriage, so it was small. Her parents were divorced. Her mom and her X-hubby’s new wife were wearing the exact same dress. Yikes!
since I grew up more on the GS Parkway than the Turnpike, that’s my answer. in fact, i was asked it just the other day. the funny thing is i attended Rutgers and it was a huge joke there to identify the out of staters.
as for red, i say hells yeah, wear it! the only hesitation i’d have is IF the bridesmaids were wearing red, but they’re not, so go!
I follow the no-white rule and that is pretty much where it stops. When I was 14, I had to go to Puerto Rico for my uncle’s wedding. I was in the fledgling stages of my Goth Days and picked out a lacy, black, Wednesday Addams-esque dress. For a tropical wedding in August it was completely WRONG but my mom somewhat hesitantly agreed to let me wear it since she knew it would make her future sister-in-law’s insides churn with rage. I didn’t understand at the time but Auntie-by-marriage is a real piece of work.
Ooh – I’ve worn a red dress to several weddings! No one cared, not an eyebrow raised or a pearl clutched. (Never heard that rule before, was raised in WI.) Wear the dress if you love the dress – with brides wearing peek-a-boo dresses to show thier 9-month pregnant belly, I think a red dress is no big.
And I second what Bitts said – this is classic abuser behavior on the boyfriend’s part. BSDM, whatever, he’s isolated her from all her friends & is controlling every.single.thing in her life…allergies aren’t contagious, that shit is just stupid, but it indicates his control. The speakerphone too. And yeah, she may not be the tough chick she was in her teens, but her story has more red flags than a parade in China, so please don’t give up on her. I think she’ll need rescue someday, and I hope she can turn to you.
@ Strat – Your description reminded me of some of the troubles I have with my own sister. Not the relationship, but the weird social anxiety, the insistence that I think her scenester friends are cool, the reluctance to share her feelings. I’ve long suspected drugs are a big part of her life, but she hides that from me and my other sister. I think Sars is right that you have to let go of the idea of who your sister used to be… I know mine has changed, and I feel it’s a change she fought hard to make. I don’t know why she wants to be the hard, posed person she is, but she does. At the same time, I think you can trust your gut feeling that this is a bad scene. One day, she may decide she wants out of it, and if you can keep the lines of communication open, she may even come to you for help if that day comes. But I know mine wouldn’t – she would be expecting an I-told-you-so from me or Other Sis. I think we both regret that now – I wish we’d been less judgmental when she began this transformation.
I have a nice red dress that I’ve worn to two fall weddings because it has sleeves, and no one ever said anything except that I looked nice in it. The second wedding I did feel a little uncomfortable because one of the wedding colors turned out to be red so I looked like I was part of the wedding party, but again, no one said anything, so it was probably just my own minor social anxiety.
I’d add that it’s probably polite to not wear the same color as the bride (one of my good friends wore a brown dress, so avoiding white isn’t always going to cut it), but other than that I’d agree with the other posters that said it isn’t what color so much as that it’s an appropriate style/cut for the occasion.
I’ve been in four weddings, and in two of them the dresses were red, so I don’t think a red dress is anything to write home about. I’m super conservative about wedding wear, too. I’ve only worn black to a wedding once, and that was when I knew the bridesmaids were also wearing black. (My mom hates black at weddings, and while I really don’t care, I always consider the fact that I might be upsetting someone’s mom or granny by wearing black when there are so many other things to wear.)
I agree with an earlier poster that “red dress” is sort of a euphemism for “inappropriate outfit.” J. Crew Erica dress in holiday red? Just fine. Jessica Rabbit outfit? Not OK.
I say wear the red dress if you’re comfortable with it. I’ve been to weddings where the bridemaid dresses were red and plenty where guests have worn red. Of course, I also wear black dresses to weddings. I’m going to one in a few weeks and plan to wear a dress that’s black with a red sash, so I guess I’m doing a double whamy…
Hi Sars:
Just as a funny aside on your “…rules of thumb for wedding attire for guests…” “…1) you are not the bride, or in the wedding, and therefore nobody cares…”
I always believed that too…until I heard a story about a friend of mine who has worn a floor length, WHITE, strapless gown (with a “hint” of a train) to more than one wedding, and then just recently I attended a “black tie” wedding where a member of the family wore an inappriate, skin tight, low (LOOOOW) cut, animal print dress.
In both these cases…people cared…(and I admit…I laughed…a LOT).
:)
For what it’s worth, my mom wore a ruby red dress to my sister’s wedding a couple years ago (a demure one, with one of those mother-of-the-bride jackets on top). I wore a red print to my cousin’s wedding last year, but nobody noticed me because 1. the groom’s mother wore head-to-toe black (ha) and 2. some cousins showed up in the trashiest outfits imaginable. Think stripper heels, leather miniskirts, and tank-tops three sizes too small.
(Actually, my red print made for a cute picture. My sister, a bridesmaid, wore royal blue, and my cousin was in white, of course, so when the three of us got a picture together we were in red, white and blue. Coincidentally appropriate for a 4th of July wedding!)
Don’t listen to me though, because I’m from the working-class Midwest, where it is apparently also acceptable for acquaintances to wear shorts and flip-flops to the reception.
I remember hearing that the reason you don’t wear red to a wedding is that if you are photographed with the bride your red dress will reflect on her white dress and make it look pink. Not a problem if you aren’t in the weeding photos, and having been a red-dressed bridemaid, not a problem then either.
Pomme de terre: J. Crew Erica dress in holiday red? Just fine. Jessica Rabbit outfit? Not OK.
I think that should be a life-rule, not just a wedding-wear guideline. :)
As far as the red dress goes, as long as it isn’t skin tight, cut up to your coochie or down to your navel I wouldn’t worry about it.
That is a very old, victorian New England rule that is from a time when weddings were much more somber affairs. Like Sars said, if you’re worried about it, and think you’ll spend all night with your sweater on trying not to have anyone notice your dress, don’t wear it, but if it isn’t going to bother you then go for it. As she said, no one will notice.
Strat, I am the most vanilla, boring person in the world, but even I know that true BSDM is about the two people in that relationship respecting each other, express it how they will, and I am not getting any respect flags from your description of Boyfriend–more Asshole Draped In Chains And Leather flags. Taking on his FOOD ALLERGIES? Putting you on SPEAKER PHONE? I don’t put up with that shit at my job taking pizza orders, and you don’t have to either. You can’t do anything about their relationship to each other, but you can about their relationship to you. Calmly and politely insisting on being treated courteously on the phone or in person may show your sister how people who care for each other should treat each other.
Red is one of the most popular colors for wedding parties these days. I can’t imagine it’d be that taboo for the guests.
@Margaret in CO: “more red flags than a parade in China” made me laugh loud and long. Is brilliant/Am stealing.
I saw a wedding party once (my parents live next door to a B&B on a large property that sees a lot of weddings every summer) dressed entirely in black, save the bride. It wasn’t a Goth-themed wedding, so far as I know, and I guess the bridesmaids came out of it with LBDs they could conceivably wear again, but the effect was rather less festive than funerary. (This was well before Shonda Rhimes’s leaden “cleverness” with her reprehensible Grey’s Anatomy finale one year.)
Disclaimer: I have had experience dealing with friends with abusive husbands before.
The thing is, with your sister, you are going to have to have things stay the way they are. Pretend, as best you can, that you are on Creepy Boyfriend’s side/that you like him, or at least tolerate him. Keep in mind that every time you talk to your sister, odds are very high that he’s hearing everything you say even if she’s not on the speakerphone, because she’ll probably tell him. I wouldn’t try to have a “come to Jesus” with her at this point. He sets off red flags, yes. Gift of Fear, yeah, probably appropriate at some point. But she doesn’t remotely sound like she’s ready to consider breaking it off with him, either, and you’re not gonna get anywhere until it dawns on her. Especially if they are doing BDSM and blind obedience is their “thing.” And if you sit her down and have A Talk, it’ll just get back to boyfriend, and he’ll make sure he cuts her off from her family. You don’t want that, hence why I say to “play along” even though it makes you sick.
You have my sympathy, though. Right now I just want to yell “LEAVE HIM! LEAVE HIM!” at my friend with a (verbally, not physically) abusive husband right now, but he’s disabled and there are money issues, and I’m aware of why it’s not that easy. And yet, every time he makes her feel like shit for leaving the house, or harasses her to do something sexual she doesn’t want to do, or or she’s not allowed to leave the house because he’ll throw a shit fit…yeah, I’m seething. But it isn’t at all under my control, it’s under hers, you know?
Sars is right. She’s not gonna listen, AND she isn’t an ass-kicker. She’s one of those girls who morphs into what the boyfriend wants. Hopefully someday she grows out of that, but it’s one of those things that one learns the hard way to stop doing.
The first time I ever heard of the “which exit” thing for Jersey was here at Tomato Nation, but since that time I have encountered it once more, and it was when two people from New Jersey met and were trying to clarify where in Jersey they were each from by using exits. This was quite recently, actually, and that was the first time I was really able to understand what Sars was talking about, except in that context it was definitely not being used as a joke.
@Mr. S- if it makes you feel any better, I’m originally from Illinois and, after telling people that who ask, they reply with ‘Oh, Illi-noise?’ I just explain that it’s not plural, there’s just the one. Ugh.
Re: Strat:
I’m in a 24/7 BDSM relationship, so I can see this a bit from your sister’s perspective (if she is, in fact, in such a relationship). She’s probably very close-lipped with you and the rest of the family because it is so easy for people to misinterpret that type of relationship as an abusive one. It’s not abuse though – it’s just what they have worked out between them and it is all part of what they’ve agreed upon for themselves. But because so few people understand, it’s just easier to keep quiet about it and brush away any real questions about the relationship.
This is not your family’s fault, obviously. It’s just self-preservation on her part. If you feel open to it, you should ask them about their relationship. Telling them that you just want to understand how it works, and not judge them, could help your sister really open up to you. And if there is something bad going on, you’ll already have forged a connection in order to help her.
Some of her stuff sounds a little ridiculous (like the food allergies), but other things just might be part of her rules (like the speakerphone), in which case it would help to know that in advance so that you can interact with them within that framework. Some things that may appear to be domineering on his part may just be part of what it is that they do.
If she’s freely chosen a 24/7 relationship with this guy, then you shouldn’t worry. It’s a difficult type of relationship because there is so much to negotiate and work out, but it is ultimately so satisfying. She may not seem all happy-sunny every day, but that doesn’t mean that her relationship isn’t rewarding and good for her. It may have changed her, but that is to be expected. Such a relationship can be a transformative experience. I know it was for me.
Sorry for rambling, Sars. Just thought I’d add some thoughts from my perspective.
@Strategy: As someone with more than a passing familiarity with BDSM, I’m going to play the voice of dissent. BDSM players come in every degree of seriousness, from people who just like a little kink in the bedroom once in a while, to people who live 24/7 as Master/slave and are quite happy doing so. If she is wearing a “belt” 24/7, and they are open enough with it to hang a fetish picture in their home, it does sound like your sister is this man’s 24/7 slave. Even within people who consider themselves each other’s Master and slave, there are varying degrees-how much autonomy the slave has, how they are treated, what kind of rules they must follow about employment outside the house, what input they have on financial decisons, friends, other relationships, etc. It sounds like your sister is on the very serious end of the spectrum.
And, for a “true” slave, the giving up of their own identity can be exactly what they want, and are made happy by. Everything you describe in your letter can be explained by the Master/slave relationship. He always being Right About Everything-well, in most Master/slave relationships the Master is right about everything and not to be questioned. The cutting off from old friends-again, a Master will control that. Some Masters will be more tolerant than others. The control of the diet-again, something some Masters will insist on. The speakerphone-that could be a rule for her as the slave, no personal phone conversations.
My point is that, “getting lost in his idea of what she should be” may be EXACTLY what your sister is craving and what makes her happy. For a lot of slaves, the Master is their world and they want to please their Master above all else, and THEY ARE MADE HAPPY by that. Your letter is all about external things-but the only evidence you present that she IS actually unhappy internally is that she doesn’t smile often. Not convincing.
I know BDSM culture is hard for outsiders to understand, and I’m certainly not saying that some practicioners aren’t bad news. I’m just saying that this may be exactly what your sister needs, and if you want to continue your relationship with her, I’d suggest that until you see any real evidence of unhappiness or actual non-consensual physical violence, you work on trying to accept that this is the person your sister is, and even if you don’t understand it, it makes her happy.
That said, I do agree the speakerphone is obnoxious. It may be their rules, but to the extent it directly affects you, you have the right to say, take me off speaker or the call is over.
Strategy – I’m so sorry to hear about the problems with your sister. My sister doesn’t have these sorts of issues (thank God!) but is rather prone to need helping out a lot and it has taken me years to realise that it really is more helpful to let her get on with it rather than try to fix her life for her. I don’t know if this is your ‘little’ sister but if it is, you somehow have to stop thinking of her like that as she is an adult (even if it’s a bit of a stretch to say that about people in their mid-twenties, sometimes, as Sars and others have pointed out).
I think the phone call thing is really a problem and I wonder if it is worth you getting her a pay as you go cell, with some credit on it. Or perhaps you can call her where she works? (I mean, I get what others are saying about telling the boyfriend he can’t listen in but if you think that’ll mean not getting to speak to your sister, maybe those are ways around).
@Strat: In opposition to some people on here, I didn’t get that the guy was so much the creep as it is your sister making him the center of the universe. I mean, maybe you left out the part about him demanding that she use speaker phone when he’s around, or demanding that she dump her old friends. But it seems like these are decisions your sister has mad–yes, once she met him, but I think there is a very big difference between him making her act this way (abusive) and her thinking she has to act this way so he’ll like her–which makes him a jerk, for going along with it, but then again, if he has no other real frame of reference, maybe he thinks this is who she really is. I’ve definitely had friends who took on everyone of their boyfriends’ likes or dislikes b/c they thought that was the best way to hang onto their man, not becaue the BFs expected it.
It’s entirely possible that he is a crap boyfriend. But you had one encounter with him where he was jerky; otherwise he’s been cool. So I agree with Sars–the issue is between you and your sister. Make sure she knows you’re there for her, and then take a deep breath, wait and see.
@Ellen CA: hee, “weeding photos.” I apologize for drawing attention to that, but now I have this delightful mental image of the MOB sniffing, “THAT is a TEA trowel. Entirely too informal!”
My ACTUAL reply concerns the photos; I was in a red bridesmaid’s dress last year, and you’re right, it made no difference in the pics. I think the technology is good enough now that they can correct for that.
Context is key, as with anything else. Wearing red velvet to a summertime outdoor wedding, maybe not so much, but again, my feeling is that if you’re stressed out about it, whatever dress you wear is going to end up wearing you.
Red: Are you in a position to ask the bride if it will bother her? Because if it doesn’t bother her, according to the latest Tomato Nation polls, it certainly doesn’t seem as if it will bother anyone else.
As a matter of fact (Note: unimportant aside follows!): it will make ME very happy. I would have preferred wearing red (great colour for me! saw it EVERYWHERE when hunting for elusive navy blue for my brother’s wedding) instead of … navy blue. Feh.
Sis: picking up on what Anonymous This Time had to offer: in point of fact, it isn’t just slaves in a relationship who are made happy by pleasing their signficant others. I’ve seen it in relationships I wouldn’t describe as BDSM, and it creeped out people who just didn’t understand that mentality. It’s possible that you are being distressed by someone you love in a relationship that you would not want for yourself. That makes it wrong for you – not in and of itself, not for them. That said, a copy of The Gift of Fear is a great gift for anyone – but especially someone you love.
I was under the impression that red was bad to wear to a funeral (as stated by my mother who said “Grandmom never forgave her for wearing a red dress to Grandpop’s funeral!” and the quote from Moonstruck, “…You’ll get hit by a bus and I’ll come to the funeral in a red dress!!”) I never heard about it being a faux pas for weddings.
Wear what is comfortable for you and you feel good in, then have a good time!
I suppose that could be another answer – make sure there are some guaranteed-trashy relatives and/or rebellious teenagers coming to draw everyone’s attention. :-)
I remember reading bridal magazines in the late 80’s and all the charts for what it was appropriate to wear at what time, during what season, based on whether the invitation specified black or white tie, etc. I believe black was officially OK for adult women (never for girls) if:
1. The wedding started after 5:00 PM, any season OR
2. The wedding took place in fall or winter, any time of day OR
3. The invitation specified black or white tie, any season or time of day
Of course, length and style had their own sets of rules – you couldn’t just wear a black evening gown to an 11:00 AM wedding in May, for example – and white for adults was very tricky, limited to, like, white suits at morning weddings in the summer, and only if you were over 30, and only if the bride was wearing something extremely non-suit-like, maybe? – but I never read a word about red.
I think one of the things about black is that, in women’s special occasion wear, it has been understood to be very Formal and very Sophisticated and Mature, so you were to avoid it in many situations so as not to be overdressed.
Long white dresses when you’re not the bride, though? Come on. Unless it’s widely known that, for example, the bride will be wearing a green vinyl pantsuit and there will be clowns and it’s generally a band of merry pranksters sort of deal, that’s histrionic personality disorder. Not because the bride is sacred and special and must be obeyed and it’s her day, blah blah, but because “long white dress” has become the visual code for “bride,” and even feral children and the guys drinking mouthwash under the overpass know that co-opting that image is the equivalent of yelling “Me! Look at me! I’m so daring and clever!”
Hee, for some reason I picture Red’s dress as something Joan Collins would not only wear, but pair with a black hat with an enormous brim, a large flower broach with feathers in it and a black fan.
No joke, I had a dear friend show up to MY wedding in just such an outfit. Plus black lace gloves (Yeah, it was 1985). She turned heads at first, but even my mother didn’t care after the first 5 minutes. I was just so glad she was able to make it, I didn’t give a fig what she had on.
But I think you’d probably be more comfortable in something you didn’t feel anxious about.