The Vine: May 21, 2008
Dear Sars:
My younger sister (she is 25) and her fiancé are to be married this fall. It will be a brief, non-denominational ceremony followed by dinner and dancing, held in a fancy restaurant. My sister and her fiancé are paying for the entire wedding themselves and have in fact refused offers of money from our parents.
The dilemma is this: my parents are insisting that a couple, who they have been friends with for more than thirty years, be invited to the wedding. (The couple in question are my godparents, though we haven’t been close since I was ten.) My sister has had little to no contact with these people since she was a teenager; neither of us likes them very much (he’s a boor and she’s a bore but that’s neither here nor there).
Included in the guest list are two other couples, friends of my parents, who both of us consider to be members of our extended family — we see them often, spend time together at holidays and in the summers, and consider their children friends of ours. So it’s not as if my sister is deliberately excluding our parents’ friends: she is selecting, as part of a limited guest list dictated by space, those who are genuinely a meaningful part of her life. She is refusing to invite the controversial couple at present.
She and my parents had a huge fight about this two months ago resulting in harsh words being spoken (my father walked out after stating he would not be attending the event). There was some reconciliation, but my parents are still insisting that this is important to them above all else, and my mother keeps saying this is “all they’ll ask of her.” If this couple doesn’t make it onto the guest list it’s guaranteed my parents will spend the entire wedding day pouting. My sister sees no reason to remove any of her friends and loved ones to make room for them, and she certainly shouldn’t have to ask her fiancé to remove any of his few relatives who are invited.
What do you think, Sars? Should she suck it up, or are my parents being unreasonable harpies?
They don’t call me the maid of honour for nothing
Dear Maid,
Both. Your parents are acting childishly, and really have no right to insist so strongly on what is, in the end, a fairly minor point given that they’ve made no financial contribution to the event (and your sister most likely insisted on that hoping to avoid precisely this kind of petty horseshit). But the problem is that they don’t get that. They should get that, but…they don’t.
I completely sympathize with your sister’s unwillingness to give in, because it’s her wedding, the request is not reasonable, and your father is being a drama queen — but if what she wants is to minimize drama queening, she needs to find two more places at the table and invite Mr. and Mrs. Booring. I know how much it costs to feed wedding guests; I also know how much it costs to battle your parents over something like this, something that is relatively minor but seems to symbolize how little respect they have for blah blah can’t you just see them some other time blah.
But she can be the bigger person, make some room for your parents’ dull friends, and end the impasse — or she can expect (or anticipate/worry about expecting) your parents to sulk on a day that’s supposed to be special, and is already stressful enough as it is.
I think you should have a stern word with your parents about their behavior. Failing that, she’ll need to issue two more invitations. It’s the path of least resistance, which despite the pejorative connotations of the term does exist for good reason.
Dear Sars,
About five months ago, after more than a year of isolating myself and dealing with a massive depression, I suffered a complete nervous breakdown, including suicidal thoughts. I was in the hospital briefly and since then have been seeing both a therapist and a psychiatrist who specializes in psychiatric medication. My psychiatrist has spent a great deal of time talking to me, going over my medical history with my regular doctor (with my permission, obviously), and reviewing with me my experiences with depression and other psychological problems I have had over the years. In addition to counseling and making sure I re-developed a good network of friends and relatives who were aware of my situation and could help in a crisis (or just be there to talk) she began a regiment of a number of psychiatric drugs, introducing them slowly and monitoring my reaction carefully. My “regular” therapist consults with my psychiatrist (again, with my permission).
Now, five months later, my life has vastly improved, due to this combination of drugs and “talk therapy.” She eventually diagnosed me with Bipolar II, but did not do so until several months of treatment because she says she doesn’t believe diagnosing patients before getting to know a patient, the patients’ history, symptoms, et cetera. I am feeling much, much better and am managing my life as a friend, wife and mother. I still have a lot of work to do, but I am grateful for how stabilized I have become.
The problem is that well-meaning friends and relatives will not stop questioning the medication. Typically they ask things like “Why do you really need all those drugs?” and “She sure diagnosed you fast, I wouldn’t trust her, why do you?” or most commonly “I looked that drug up on the Internet, it can have really bad side effects and it’s not even used for Bipolar II, why are you taking it?” The last statement is usually followed up with “I checked it on Medline so I’m sure.”
Sars, my psychiatrist was very up-front and thorough about what the medications were, what possible side effects were, and also went over their different uses depending on dosages (for example, one drug I take is for schizophrenia in high doses but works well as a mood stabilizer in very low doses, like mine — and there have been medical studies that attest to that). I absolutely trust both my doctors (and both come highly recommended and have excellent reputations in their respective fields). I have told this to the people who constantly question my meds, and I am getting really tired of feeling like I have to justify this. At this point I’m simply saying “I trust my doctor,” and pretty much nothing more, because trying to explain/defend the treatment doesn’t seem to get anywhere.
What can I say to get them off my back about this? I know these people mean well and are concerned, but still.
The Walking Sack of Chemicals
Dear Chem Sack,
“My doctor has extensive training and experience in dealing with cases like mine, and I trust her. Thank you for your concern, though.” Subject change.
In the case of repeated queries from the same people: “I appreciate your concern, truly, but unless you feel that I’m a danger to myself or others, I really need you to keep your doubts about my medication to yourself — it’s only stressing me out. Thanks.”
I mean, “I checked it on Medline”? Girl, please. (I’m kind of tempted to tell you to yell, “Check THIS on Medline, you meddling mofo” and start throwing slaps, but then they’ll really think your med sked is fucked up. Hee.) (Not to make light of this, obviously, but…come on. “I checked it on Medline,” give me a break.) Everyone gets one thinly-veiled “thanks, but mind your own.” After that, tell them point-blank it’s not their business — and unless they’re licensed physicians familiar with your file, it ain’t.
Hi Sars,
I have a quick thank-you-note etiquette question. I just accepted a new job that I was offered the same day I interviewed (yay me!). In the ensuing hubbub of discussions about benefits and starting dates, I never did get the “official,” mandated interview thank-you note out the door.
Now, I’m usually a send-the-card-anyway type of lady, but what is the window of opportunity for this kind of note? Do I still send a card to my boss-to-be in the vein of “thank you for the opportunity and I look forward to joining your team,” or does that come across as brown-nosing? If I ignore the protocol, does that come across as ignorant?
It seems small, but I really am very excited about the new job and I don’t want to start off on the wrong foot.
To Note Or Not To Note?
Dear Note,
I would note. Mention at the top what you just told me, that you’d meant to send this much more promptly but you got all busy with HR stuff — in any case, you’re psyched to get started and you hope the note isn’t coming too late.
Just keep it light. Better to have them think you’re a little bit of an apple-polisher than that you blew it off.
Tags: etiquette health and beauty the fam workplace
Sars: You forgot the other standard reply for Chem Sack.
*Brightly innocent voice* “Wow, Medline must be really incredible because my Doctor has been studying medicene for the past 20 odd years and here YOU became an expert in just seconds on Medline.”
Or: “Sorry, I’m going to go with the person who DIDN’T have to look it up on Medline. Thanks anyway.”
Honor, my family is just coming off a Big Ol’ Financial Drama with massive relationship repercussions (“Why no, Dad, I have never envied the fact that y’all footed some bills for my brother’s family; because I don’t have to write checks to mom”).
The story is, mom fretted herself to blood pressure “of stroke proportions” over certain arrangements, then finally changed her mind ON THE DAY of a significant financial transaction. This blew my brother’s family, most particularly my sister-in-law, completely out of the water.
The change itself might have been weathered, but the *timing* had my brother on the phone to me in tears – not a typical occurrence – and relationships quite seriuously on the brink.
I called mom, took her shoe shopping, and when she said she felt ‘such-and-such would be best for everyone’, I stopped her dead and said, “Mom, regardless of whether I agree with ‘such-and-such’ – and I don’t – you know very well that such-and-such may not occur.” I asked her right there in the parking lot if she was going to be able to forgive and get past it, if such-and-such was not to be. “What is more important? Such-and-such? Or your relationship with s-i-l, your grandchildren, and your son? Cause, as I may have mentioned? Such-and-such is no guarantee, and has significant drawbacks (which I extremely briefly outlined).”
Honor, it might be worth trying to say, “mom and dad, what’s more important – and would you seriously be willing to *withhold forgiveness* if you don’t get your way in this?” The elaboration of disadvantages (“you’d be booting other beloved people off the list to get this, and causing discomfort knowingly for the bridal couple”) is optional, but may be effective with certain audiences.
The coda: my brother – never my greatest admirer – has called multiple times now to thank me for talking to him in the first place, and refers to my dealing with mom as “masterful” (awfully kind, but merely the result of my objectivity with the problem at hand).
As raw as everyone is, we’re still family. Sometimes, ya gotta remind people THAT is the point, more than anything else. Dang.
Chem Sack, my son has Type 1 Diabetes, and my husband and I get hit on all sides by well-meaning but completely ignorant comments from friends, relatives and random strangers about how we should be treating his condition.
Add my voice to all the others who would respond, “And you went to medical school where?”
It’s just insulting to have people offer their unsolicited judgement as a replacement for your own, regardless of the situation, but even more so when they really don’t know what the f**k they’re talking about!
BTW – congrats on identifying the problem and finding a solution. Would that everyone else in your life would do the same for themselves.
Maybe Chem Sack should also consider upping the filter on how much info friends really need about his/her meds, treatment, etc. There’s a difference between sharing how you’re doing with it all and sharing specifics about types of meds. Methinks the friends in question could be pretty easily shut down by a lack of specifics…I mean, last time I looked, Medline didn’t have a category for drugs/treatment called Helping Me Feel Better.
People… actually say these things, Chem Sack? Wow. I mean, I’ve been known to bag on my friends’ former psychs for making bone-headed decisions, but that’s when they’ve had actual bad experiences. Getting all judgmental when you’ve had good results doesn’t make any sense. Maybe your friends are closeted Scientologists or something.
I guess the solution would be not to let people like this in on your medical issues in future, now that you know they’re going to be this way. I wonder if they’d act the same if you were suffering a physical ailment, or if they’ve bought into this notion that psychiatry/psychology is a field anyone can understand after reading a couple of articles in Reader’s Digest. God forbid you turn up with cancer or something and they start telling you your oncologist “diagnosed you too fast.”
For Chem Sack: you could point out that we are all, in fact, sacks of chemicals. That’s what hormones and endorphins and and blood et al. ARE. For one reason or another, some of us can’t regulate them on our own, so we take meds to do that. Diabetics take insulin, post-menopausal women take progesterone, et cetera. If they throw Medline at you, tell them, yeah well, you saw the shirt they’re wearing on Go Fug Yourself, and we all know that that’s the last word on fashion, so ha.
I’ll apologize right now for the length of this.
I could have written Walking Bag of Chemical’s letter – in fact I almost did a number of times. I’ve been on anti-depressants for over six years now after finally admitting that I needed help, which was something that was not easy for me, despite my knowledge of my family history (or perhaps because of it). I’ve also had to deal with the stupid comments from well-meaning friends.
Backing up a bit – when I was 18 my mom lost her damn mind. Like waking me up at 5 in the morning to tell me that my friends were sending her messages thru the television lost her mind. This resulted in a stint in the psych ward. She was released home and was doing fine for a few months when she tried to kill herself. I was told that she was in the hospital for a broken ankle (which she did have – complicated story) and that the reason she was in ICU was because of her heart rate. I only found out what had actually happened because I heard an ansering machine message that was not intended for me.
She did some more pysch ward time and was doing well for another year or so, then tried to kill herself again. More psych ward. This was an incredibly hard situation to deal with and f’ed me up quite a bit. It’s very hard to come home every day when you’re afraid you’re going to find your mother dead. (The doctors finally got her on all of the right meds and I’m thrilled to say that 10 years later she’s doing great).
When this happened, we found out that one of her sisters was already on anti-depressants. So with all this in mind, when my own depression became steadily worse, to the point that I spent a good deal of time every. single. day. comtemplating killing myself, I got help. I talked a bunch, got some meds and the difference is night and day. I am no longer in regular therapy, but I’m still on medication and probably will be for the rest of my life.
After all of this, I also decided to take a closer look at my grandfather’s death. The family story was that it was an accident or possible homicide, but I remembered hearing one of my relatives saying that at the time the paper had mentioned possible suicide. I was able to pull up the news archive online and now I firmly believe that he was responsible for his own death.
Every doctor we’ve talked to has said the same thing – biochemical depression. We have a genetic predisposition to depression – this is also why a medication that is successful in treating one family member will normally work for another family member. At current count there are 9 people on my mother’s side being treated for depression – most of us not knowing the others were being treated until much later, so this isn’t a party-train type of thing.
When I first told one of my oldest friends about my being on meds (a friend who knew the entire history of what I went through with my mother), she informed me that, “America is over-medicated.†Alrighty then. The next time I saw her she gave me a copy of a book on “nutritional healing.†Let me get this straight, my grandfather killed himself, my mother tried to kill herself twice and you want me to eat an f’ing apple to deal with my own depression?? This friend has never gotten it, and I don’t think she ever will. I think this is partly due to the fact that she didn’t see what was really happening to me because of geographical distance and the front that I was putting on.
On the other hand, another of my friends who was with me a lot during the time right before I got help (she was one of the few people I let see what was really going on) understands why I’m on ADs. She has told me that before she saw what I went through she thought anti-depressants weren’t really a good idea, but now she realizes how bad depression can be and notices the huge difference meds have made in my life.
I’ll stop rambling now – I just wanted to comment because you’re not alone and it’s incredibly frustrating to hear this crap from friends (I had to get up and walk around ten times while reading your letter), but you’ll get through it. It’s funny to me that medications for heart, kidney, liver, etc are often acceptable, but let’s not fix that faulty brain.
My new favorite comeback is, “Thanks Tom, I’ll keep the meds.â€
Chem Sack, Elizabeth, and Happy Pills: Believe it or not, people really do say those things. All the time. I’ve been on medication for Generalized Anxiety Disorder (read: I have nothing to be anxious about, and yet I am anyway) for a few years now, and there really is a stigma to medications for the brain that isn’t there with the body. You get a lot of “Just stop worrying”, etc, and people that haven’t been there just don’t understand.
What people also don’t understand is the physical part of disorders like these. The constant worry isn’t what renders me nearly non-functional, but the fatigue, changes in appitite, tension, and constant strange light-headedness that comes from having an over active fight-or-flight reflex.
Generally, unless it comes up for a reason in conversation or I need to inform people (teachers, employers) because I’m struggling with it, I just don’t tell people about it. Fortunately, I have a degree in psychology, so it is a bit easier for me to talk to people about it, but I still run into people like you all do. What I do is compare it to taking medication for other ongoing conditions like high blood pressure or diabetes. Same situation. My brain doesn’t produce a chemical properly, so I take medication to keep it in check. Would you tell someone with high blood pressure to stop taking their medication and get over it? No. A chemical imbalance doesn’t fix itself overnight, either, so there you go.
And that was more than any of you needed to know, but just know that it happens, and for those of you struggling, there are people with you. Never give up hope.
To Chem: Hey I hear ya. I have to second the votes on just not keeping certain people in the loop on your specific meds. A cheeful “Thanks for your interest. I’m doing the things to help me feel better and I’m glad you are so supportive.” hint hint, does wonders. Kill ’em with kindness I always say.
I am Bipolar I and I’ve been through it all girl so I know how hard it can be to try to be healthy when your OWN BRAIN is actively fucking with you. Add insensitive/ill informed comments from people who are supposed to be supporting you and it’s no wonder you are stressed.
You are doing the best thing in the world for yourself and the less specific you can be with some people is probably the best.
Hugs to you! And feel free to email me (tuliptoe(at)gmail) if you ever need a sympathetic ear.
Chem Sack: I have the same reaction as some others, that there’s something about this that seems surprising, that you’re having an issue with multiple people doing something this weird and inappropriate. I can imagine a particular person being clueless in this way, but multiple friends and multiple relatives are really trying to counsel you about your meds? It’s not that I don’t believe it or that I think it’s your fault, but it tempts me to look for something that’s precipitating this problem.
I tend to agree that maybe providing fewer specifics about your meds to friends and family is one place to start. Sometimes, if you’re giving a lot of detail about your medical treatment, that may be tempting people to think of it as their business. It’s hard to hear “I will now give you the details of my treatment regimen, which I want you to understand is none of your business.” It’s not that that’s necessarily unfair, but not everyone can split that hair.
Either that, or you need better friends, because I do kind of think this behavior from them is not in range for how people behave. The occasional intrusive question, sure, but if you’re really surrounded on all sides by nosy quasi-experts, you might want to start with Sars’s suggestions and then see how you might address the underlying dynamic that seems to be subjecting you to an unusual amount of this.
@Maid of Hono(u)r- I double and triple what Diane and Sars said. I think you need to step in here and hash it out with your folks as an objective party. Keep in mind to stay objective while talking to them because they are clearly acting like they are about 5 years old and will likely get defensive and/or stupid about it.
Personally, I usually go with the road that leads to the least amount of drama myself, but if I was your sister, this would stick in my craw way too much to let go, drama be damned. Why is it that some parents seem to think that a child’s wedding day is about them?? It’s the *CHILD’S* wedding day- a whole day just about them and nobody else. I need to call my parents tonight and tell them how awesome they are for never putting my brothers and sisters through this crap. My folks (who helped pay for the weddings) had to be asked by my brothers and sisters who they wanted to invite and then they made it clear that the people were just suggestions and that my siblings could invite whomever they wanted. And if someone that they knew didn’t get invited, they just said, ‘sorry, we aren’t in charge of the invitations because it’s not our wedding.’ I mean, come on! Grow up and get over yourselves, parents!
And all of you who are parents need to keep this in mind when your own kids get married. Hee!
Maid, I agree with Sars summation that the parents are being childish, but thought I’d chime in with two philosphical points that helped me get over the fact I had to invite a few people I didn’t like to my weddding. The first is that yes, it’s the bride and grooms day, but it’s also a huge day for the parents and they might really want to share their joy with this particular couple and from that perspective it’s kind of mean to say no.
The second (considerably less charitable) point is that the more friends your parents have there, the more time they will spend making sure they’re having a good time and the less they’ll spend doing whatever it is that drives you crazy about them eg criticising your outfit, saying dumb things to your friends, which could make for less drama all round.
If money is the issue, perhaps there’s a non petty way of getting the parents to cover the cost of the bores.
Thirding or fourthing or whatever-ing what others have said about, yeah, people really do give you shit about being on psychiatric medication. I had a dude break up with me because I went on antidepressants. Said it meant I was “weak”. In hindsight I tend to think that was a blessing in disguise, why the fuck would I want to be with someone who discriminates against the mentally ill that way?
My choir director, who I thought was cool, is now strongly cautioning me against “allowing” myself to be “forced” into taking medication for my ADD. I’m actually hoping there’s a pill they can give me that will help, because I sure as hell wouldn’t be able to remember to do whatever behavioral therapy they’d want to put me on.
Anyway. I think Sars is right on on this one, just thank them for their concern and remind them that it’s none of their business. People who don’t eventually get that can be weeded out slowly or will sometimes flounce out themselves in a drama explosion, but at least you won’t have to deal with it anymore.
I feel bad for Chem Sack. Not because I’ve ever said what her friends tell her to anyone, but because there’s at least one bi-polar/schizophrenic person in my family who has had struggled on several medications for the better part of 2 decades (the two illnesses? Not a good combo when it comes to figuring out what cocktail of meds works at the level of distress this relative was at when finally diagnosed), and yet it took my own mom years to get around to the fact that some people need meds if they’re having psychological difficulties, and will need them for the foreseable future.
I had many conversations with my mom where I was just appalled by her refusal to understand the simple fact that talk therapy does not fix it all. There was no explaining it to her in terms that wouldn’t bring back a “Yes, but…” and I could never actually get to the bottom of why medication was supposed to be such a horrible thing (other than my parents are weird about all kinds of medications, period). At some point it just go so heated that I had to stop talking to her about it, other than “How is so and so? Ah. I see. I’m glad she’s doing better” and then changing the subject. Like Sars suggested, sometimes you just have to say “It’s none of your business, so please change the subject”.
FloridaErin – you have my sympathies. I struggled with OCD/GAD for two years, with very strong physical symptoms at times (yeah, anxiety-induced heart palpitations and vomiting, whee). Went through three different meds and a pile of “natural” remedies and self-medicating before I found a naturapath who suggested I cut wheat out of my diet. Voila, 90% better. Wish someone could have told me that years ago. In the meantime, I dealt with trying to function while almost every day, I was really, seriously NOT ok, just faking it. Sucks, and sucks worse to have people give all kinds of lovely advice… I’m diabetic, also, so I’m really used to the “are you *sure* you can eat that?”… um, yes. I’ve only been doing this for 18 years, thanks.
Big hugs and sympathy to everyone who is dealing with the crappy comments. While I *do* agree that our country over-medicates for many physical ailments that could be better dealt with by better food and habits, I also absolutely agree that the stigma that goes along with getting help and treatment for mental illnesses sucks ass.
Honor-
Here’s the thing… Have the invites gone out yet? And if they have, are the RSVPs filtering in yet? Because at any wedding, there’s going to be at least 15 to 20% of the guest list that won’t be able to attend because of personal reasons, health, finances, etc (my wedding was sort of a destination thing on a Friday… 35% of the people we invited couldn’t make it.) Odds are, if the couple in question is invited it won’t make a hill of beans difference anyway since your sister should be budgeting as though everybody will come (even if they don’t) or at least leaving a little wiggle room in the number of people who will show.
Now, there’s two things to consider: 1. This may all be moot anyway, because if invitations have already gone out, it’s sort of considered poor form to send out a second round (especially after the declines have come in.) 2. Your parents may have already TOLD this couple that they are invited, in which case, you know, it’s two people.
It’s not about who wins, it’s what is polite. Extend the godparents an invitation and call it a day. Odds are they’ve already sensed there’s a rift and won’t show anyway.
“The first is that yes, it’s the bride and grooms day, but it’s also a huge day for the parents and they might really want to share their joy with this particular couple and from that perspective it’s kind of mean to say no.”
I must say that I find the It’s Your Day philosophy somewhat…I don’t know what word I want here. Yes, the wedding day is about you as individuals becoming a family; it is about you. But weddings that take place in a church, or in front of a group, do so because the congregation or group is witnessing the marriage. This is a standard element in many ceremonies — that the assembled, as witnesses, undertake not only to celebrate the wedding but to support the marriage going forward.
My larger point is that nobody is required to share the consecration of the marriage with the/a community — but if you do, it is, like it or not, no longer solely Your Day. And if you invite guests to a celebration afterwards, *that* isn’t exactly All About You anymore either.
Don’t get me wrong; people should have the weddings they want. But when the wedding you want is a gathering of people, unfortunately you will have to make certain concessions to that fact, whether it’s offering a vegetarian entree at dinner, or doing a first dance even though you think the tradition’s outmoded because it would make your dad happy, or inviting a couple of buttholes because it’s political, as in this case.
Because that’s the other thing: Your Day or not, it’s not the last day of your life. There isn’t a credits sequence/fade to black; you still have to deal with your parents when everything’s said and done. It’s like the marriage itself — the wedding is the beginning of the story, in a way, not the end.
Again, of course you want it to be special, but policing Your Day as though it has the force of law 1) annoys everyone involved, and 2) just makes more work for the bride and groom.
Kind of tangential to the original letter, but anyway.
Honor: About a month after my wedding I found out my father in law had gotten “in trouble” with the mother of his lifelong friend because she wasn’t invited to *my* wedding. This was after my father in law sprang that same friend and his wife on my husband and I three weeks before the wedding with “I forgot to tell you I invited Friend & Wife can you send them a quick invitation?” …It was all I could do not to slap him silly. I was furious–how rude! How presumptuous! But, in the end, it was one day and two extra place settings vs. YEARS of petty reminders from my father in law about how rude “we” were for not sending an invitation that *he* promised to a couple we never intended to invite. Anyway, I think your sister should invite them to avoid petty recriminations from your parents down the road, but be very clear when she informs your parents of her decision that she feels manipulated and is doing so under duress. She should make her point, invite them, move on.
Chem: I hear you. I get “ADHD and generalized anxiety aren’t real diseases, it’s all in your head.” Well…um…yeah. Indeed, it is. It’s very much in my head, that’s the problem–it’s fucking around inside my head and won’t leave me in peace. And I get “You can’t have ADHD, you’re an adult woman and that’s just for little boys.” Beg to differ, there. My response is always a completely icy-cold “Oh? How kind of you to be concerned” and eye-lock them until they look away. RInse, repeat.
Honour, my brother had a similar situation, except that my dad was insisting that he invite our step-mother’s grown children and spouses, which amounted to 5 additional people, all of whom are nearly complete strangers (my siblings and I were grown when my parents slit up). My sister and I both tried to intervene with our dad, mostly because we thought the kids were using my brother’s wedding as an excuse for a California vacation. My dad didn’t budge, and since we all have the same stubborn streak, neither did my brother.
It all worked out fine, I have to say. This is only my experience, of course, but everyone upthread who is saying, “Do you want to have years of recriminations?” etc. etc. seems to be going a little overboard. Maybe it’s just my family, I dunno. But my dad Got Over It. As I expect your parents will too.
Of course I think Sars’s advice is right on, also, because why risk it? Especially if you really do think your sis will be quaking in fear about parents’ response on the day of. I’m just saying that (in my sample size of one) the parents manage somehow.
Maid of Honour: one of the best pieces of advice I ever received in my long, long life was from my friend James who, in a similarly stubborn situation said to me, “Sometimes it’s better to do the right thing than to be right.” Following this tack–which led me to apologize to an upper-level manager for something that was in NO WAY my fault–led to my eventual status as something of a Fair-Haired Girl in my organization. It sucked at the time, oh lordy. But the payoff was really sweet, and directly linked to my actions.
Your sister not only wants to have her parents happy at her wedding, but she wants to have a continuing happy relationship with them (I’m assuming…?). If she doesn’t do the right thing and appease them on this score, it could truly have long-term consequences. It doesn’t matter that she’s right. That’s not going to be much comfort when her wedding day is ruined and possibly her future relationship with Mom & Dad.
It’s going to suck, there’s no question. But so much in life does. And, after all, as the bride, she’s not going to need to do much talking to Mr & Mrs Booring anyway.
Sack O’: Is it possible that your friends–the ones giving you aggro, anyway–are not really comfortable with you getting better? I’m not trying to be mean, but some people tend to get used to dealing with you in certain ways, on certain terms, and it bugs them to have to recalibrate how they deal with you. Codependency is one name for it, but I think it goes beyond that. If you remained in an unmedicated hash of mental hell, they could feel superior, and concerned, and sort of surrogate-parental toward you. But with you doing better, they have to step off and acknowledge to some degree at least that the playing field is somewhat more level than it once was. And to people accustomed to having their very own walking “project”, that’s very uncomfortable.
Re: parents/in-laws and the wedding guest list.
First – I absolutely agree with the assessment of parents-acting-like-children. And know that understanding that doesn’t make a lick of difference when it comes to wedding planning stuff. hee. (Someday I will tell the story of my rehersal dinner. When the memory has faded a little more; it’s only been five years.) It does unfortunately come down to “is this worth fighting”….
The Husband and I were prepared to pay for our wedding entirely on our own, but my parents wanted to help out some (and we accepted on the condition that it didn’t give them a shareholder vote, lol). Anyway… My mother-in-law sounds similar to Maid’s parents; gems from m-i-l’s desired guest list included HER mother’s next door neighbor. Here’s how we handled it (and this may not work, depending on how soon the wedding in question is):
We set our max number of guests – based on both how many people we were willing to feed and how many the reception location would hold – and did a quick preliminary guest list to make sure the number was reasonable. Let’s call it 150.
The list got divided into three; “my” family, “his” family, and “our” friends. We gave “my” family list to my mom and said she could finish filling it up to 50. “His” family list went to his mom with the same direction. That meant if m-i-l wanted to use up her remaining spaces inviting dog groomers and strangers from the grocery store, that was her issue.
Did we end up with people I’d never met before and will never see again? Yup. Was it worth it to make m-i-l feel like she was involved and that I valued her (looney) opinions? Oh hell yeah.
Also, I side with Sars re: squickiness of the “MY DAY” phenomenon. It’s really NOT just your day, unless you’re gonna JP it in the park with a witness and then go have dinner. Once there’s a guest list involved and you’re paying to show people a good time, it’s really more THEIR day. And that’s okay, I mean, 9/10ths of the reason my husband and I got married after 8 years instead of living in sin forever was BECAUSE we wanted an excuse to get everybody together to feed them, get them drunk, and make them humiliate themselves at karaoke. I guess I don’t see how two people is going to make that much difference, unless you’re going to go all “slippery slope, domino effect, all of South East Asia will become communist!” about it and are afraid there will then be 2 more people your parents want to add, etc.
Obvious Deal Breaker: If the person your parents want to invite is going to make a scene or has abused you. Those people don’t get to come.
Honour’s letter got me reminiscing…my future m.i.l. pulled me aside during the invitation process and said under no circumstances could I invite my fiance’s favorite cousin to our wedding (which we paid for ourselves) because said cousin had had the effrontery to marry someone of a different race.
The stated reason was that my alcoholic f.i.l., the world’s leading racist asshat, would make a scene. My fiance caved, and against every instinct in my body, we withheld an invitation.
Long story short, her parents, who had been invited, stayed away in a snit, an open rift caused by our wedding resulted in my f.i.l. never speaking to his own sister again, and there you go. We seriously considered bagging the whole affair and eloping.
Many parties in the dispute are long dead, but I still, after nearly 30 years of marriage, feel bad about it. By the way, we get along fine with the cousin and her husband. My in-laws…not so much.
On the wedding issue, keep in mind that the bride doesn’t seem to be concerned about just paying for extra place settings; she may very well have a limit on the number of people the venue can hold, and it could come down to not inviting a good friend in exchange for people she hardly knows. In that case, she may want to take an attitude of putting it on her parents, by saying “ok, you can invite them, but you cannot remove anyone else from the guestlist, and you have to figure out how to work out the logistics of going over our designated number.”
On the anti-depressant issue:
It’s hard to tell if you’re not there, but I would assume that the people questioning Chem Sack’s meds are not just being nosy, but are genuinely concerned. There has been a lot of recent press about how over-medicated people are, and if taken when not needed AD’s can be extremely dangerous. Agreed, saying that you know better than a doctor because you looked it up online is ridiculous, but when used properly, such websites are very good for informing patients of what questions to ask their doctors. I can tell you from experience that if you don’t question them or give them the right information, doctors can easily get things wrong. So, they may not be saying that they know better than Chem Sack’s doctor, but simply making sure that a person they care about has not been misinformed.
So, while these people might be overly nosy, one way to go about responding would be to acknowledge their concerns. When a good friend of mine went on anti-depressants, I was concerned that I would not see the signs if the meds were causing problems, and that due to the nature of her depression, she would not do anything about those symptoms. Chem Sack could consider telling concerned friends if there are any warning signs of which they should be aware that mean that Chem Sack is reacting negatively to the meds.
In the end, this approach would only be reasonable for people who are also reasonable; that is, if they would spend every waking hour prodding you for side effects, it wouldn’t be worth it. But if you’re going to let them know what meds you’re taking, and you’re taking one that is not commonly prescribed for your diagnosis, I would worry if no one were concerned.
@ Maid of Honor,
Similar thing happened to a good friend of mine and she decided to take the more petty route and de-invited her father (it was just him pitching the fit; her parents are divorced so mom could still attend). When I read her this Vine over the phone, she laughed and said she’s happier that she de-invited her father as she would have been bitter the entire day having to de-invite a friend to make room for people she didn’t really know/like.
I’m not saying your sis wants to go this route, but maybe you should put it as an option to your dad – he doesn’t have to attend the wedding of his daughter.
Some of us come from families where every petty little slight is remembered and rehashed in great fucking detail for the next five, ten, twenty years.
(In mine alone, someone makes a remark about “Vultures come and eat!” or “Those shoes look like elf shoes,” or “So how’s your punk rock band?” and you will hear about nothing else for the next decade.)
If your family holds grudges, I’d cave in to keep the peace. One day vs. twenty years of bitching is SO not worth it.
Re: Maid of Honour,
It could also be that the parents want to use the wedding as an opportunity to show off for said nasty couple or that Mom and Dad were invited to the wedding of one of the couple’s children and feel they must include them to save face. Either way, that’s Mom and Dad’s problem, not the bride’s! Good luck, MOH; you have my sympathies!
Maid of Honor: Every bride and groom have to pick their battles. How important it is, really, to your sister that this couple NOT be at the wedding? If it’s a logistical/financial issue, that’s one thing and she should stand her ground. But if it’s just become a sticking point, in the long run, it might better to just invite them. I guarantee you that she will barely notice they’re there.
I refused to invite the girlfriend (the most odious woman alive) of a very good friend of mine to my wedding. As a result, my friend didn’t come either, which disappointed me very much, and I’ve always regretted it. I realized after the wedding that I could have said hello to her once and ignored her for the rest of the day. It would have been worth it to me to suck it up. (I also insisted that no one under 16 be invited to the wedding, and I’ve never regretted that. As I said, battle-picking is very important.)
@Patricia – it’s not those of us giving the advice above going overboard, it’s the people about whom we’re giving said advice. My mother happens to be the woman who raised me to put others’ concerns before my own. Unfortunately, since the death of my father (traditional mediator between her and her son/my bro, who is EXACTLY like her in temperament but sports diametrically opposed actual opinions and ideals), her perspective has changed radically.
The woman who taught me good manners and sensitivity has succumbed to an indulgence common among many: the idea that age confers the right to selfishness. “I have the right to regress, I spent decades being good.” Some express this outright, some don’t realize what they are doing. Some suffer this before the age of thirty, too. Add this to the fact that she can have herself a slight streak of self-righteousness anyway, and yes, she does run the danger of going “overboard” … This leaves those around her with the option to deal with it passively, or actively. To do so actively doesn’t make the deal-er unnecessarily dramatic; only, hopefully, more comfortable.
@Sars – I can’t hang with the whole My Day thing either. It’s not a performance, it’s a communal rite – and either way, there’s going to be an audience or a congregation. For those who prefer an audience, it’s unrealistic. For those who want those sharing to actually convene and share something, politics are simply unavoidable.
People. Can’t live with ’em. Can’t punch ’em in the neck and make ’em shut up, either. So it goes.
@ Chem Sack,
The way I always dealt with people who told me that they knew better than I did about whether or not to trust my doctors was to simply look them in the face and ask them if they were licensed to treat me in the hospital the next time I decided that I didn’t need medication based on my friends’ recommendations. That usually shut them up pretty quick. It took a while to get there though, and it’s not the smile and “thanks for your concern” method, but it gets the job done.
@ Maid of Honour
I think it does come down to deciding if you want it to be a public or private affair. My wedding preparations were getting WAY out of hand, my mom was constantly on the phone with her recommendations and what she would like, and my in-laws were wanting what they wanted, and one night we looked at each other and asked “so how does a justice of the peace work for you?” and that’s what we did. We made a few phone calls and informed immediate family that’s what we were doing, we appreciated that they would like to be there, but this was best for us. It sucked for a few weeks at the time, but everyone got over it. But if we had not taken that route, I do believe that we should have compromised with our families, to a point, because it would have been a family affair.
To clear all that up abit….I think either you should compromise with family, and that means making the occasional exception to what you want, or do it completely on your own.
On a completely different note, having your entire wedding bill go down to $115 completely rocked.
Re: “filtering” discussions of meds and mental illness:
I would argue that the way to battle the profound ignorance about mental illness and PROPER medication is to bring it up – a lot – especially when you’re doing well after being very obviously unwell.
This does several things: it reinforces the message for well-meaning but ignorant people, and it’s a lifeline for others who are afraid to admit to their own mental health issues. I may have bored some people (and I do try hard NOT to be a bore,) but the people who love me and have to work with me are well-informed now, and several others have come to me later and opened up about being afraid to get treatment, being afraid of meds, being afraid to tell their families, having fears about mentally-ill relatives, etc. My openness and informed-ness helped them.
People with mental health issues don’t have a lot of advocates. Those of us who are in good shape have to speak for ourselves and for each other.
@Diane: I totally take your point, and my comment was not well-written. I’m also surprised at the numbers of folks chiming in whose families just absolutely will not get over this stuff. I guess I shouldn’t be; my family has our fair share of stupid and petty grudges. But I guess this issue wasn’t it for us.
I still think compromise is best if possible, but I sure do feel for Honour and her sister!
Weddings! Crimony.
My brother and SIL had about three months between deciding to get married and their wedding. Because they hadn’t had time to save, they elected to ask her parents, my mom, and my dad if they would be willing to contribute.
Dear ol’ Dad made a huuuuuuge stink about how the parents of the BRIDE should pay for the wedding (how convenient: between he and his wife, 3 of their 4 kids are male). Then he e-mailed a list of EIGHTEEN PEOPLE he wanted on the guest list for a wedding they were trying to cap at one hundred. Then he refused to sit with his own sister.
Because my brother is a saint, he invited people on Dad’s guest list, but only those he had met more than once. Dad got to hold court at his own table full of his cronies, and his sister and father got to sit with strangers.
Oh, and on the wedding issue?
My husband and I also financed the entirety of our wedding. We had a destination wedding and only invited immediate family. It wasn’t just the financial aspect of it, it was also that I absolutely hate big and wasteful events (I avoid being a wedding guest if at all possible for that very reason). My husband felt the same way. As a result, we got married on a beach, with only six witnesses, and we had a regular dinner at 4 star restaurant afterward. My dad said it was “the best and most laid back wedding he’d ever been invited to”.
We wanted something very intimate, so when my husband’s aunt (on his mom’s side) offered to fly out on her dime to attend, my (very excellent) mother in law told her that it wouldn’t be a good idea, as she felt a couple’s wishes for a wedding should be respected, and besides she did not want to put her out financially (although from what I understand, that would not have been a problem at all). MiL is one of those people who would put herself out before making anyone uncomfortable in any way shape or form, so she had only mentioned her sister’s wish to come in passing, so we did not think much of it.
I’m not going to say that her relationship with her sister became extremely strained, but there was a lot more fallout than we were first told (in fact, we didn’t really find out about it until a year later, when my husband’s cousin got married and there was much open talk of “it was important for our family to invite everyone to our daughter’s wedding, regardless of what’s happened in the past”, which we sort of had to ignore, since the time for apologies apparently had long passed). If I could go back and do it again, I wish I had realized how important it was for my MiL’s sister to come, in which case I would have said “what the hell, we’ll make an exception this time, and hope that all my relatives who didn’t get to go won’t get pissed off about it”.
It’s possible that Maid of Honor’s mom and dad are holding back on why it’s extremely important for these friends to be invited. It’s possible that the friends are openly wondering why they weren’t invited, and are putting a lot of pressure on her folks to get to the bottom of it. As Sars suggested, Maid of Honor should really have a frank talk with her parents on behalf of Sis and try to get to the bottom of it, i.e., ask directly what the harm would be in not inviting boorish couple to the wedding. Is it going to mean their friends will never speak to them again, and if so, is that going to be extremely upsetting to mom and dad?
Besides, even if the boorish couple came, I promise you that (regular) weddings are stressful enough for the wedding party that Maid of Honor and her sister would not even notice any boorish behavior from them.
The more I think about the “My Day” thing, the more I think it’s probably the #2 cause of bridezillas. The #1 cause: Being a complete poonhandle to begin with.
About weddings: I think the concept that it’s “the bride’s day” is uniquely American, propelled by the wedding industry. Of course, the bride is the focus in many cultures. But in my experience, in no other culture is a bride expected to do so much work planning every detail, down to the little ribbons and calligraphy. It’s kind of insane.
Anyway, I think it’s because of this unique wedding culture that makes people go a bit crazy, and act like the event is some kind of royal gathering where only the most privileged can be included. And somewhere along the way, brides are losing sight of the fact that they are hosts. They should be grateful that there are more people who want to wish them well.
It’s not as if these people are strangers – they are godparents of the bride’s sister, and obviously very important to the bride’s parents. The bride should graciously invite them and endure them for the day.
Poor MOH and Bride- it does sound like she has included not just family, but friends of the parents.
If the parents are normally reasonable people (if they aren’t and this is just the latest temper tantrum, now may be the time to say no) the MOH should definetly try to find out what is going on with them. I have noticed that the whole MY DAY thing is very different from my friend’s parents ideas of weddings- they expect to get to show off to their friends and that they will be included in the day in a major way.
I would see if the parents were invited to the weddings of these peoples kids, and are embarassed they aren’t reciprocating. When my best friend got married her MIL (complete monster always) handed her a list of sixteen people who she expected to be invited. Even though she is a truly awful person generally, she also seemed really genuinely suprised that all these people wouldn’t be invited, because after all she had been to their children’s weddings and her son getting married was a day she felt she should have a say in.
Luckily the venue was so tiny as to make it not even an option for my bf to invite 16 strangers (on top of people that she did know and were invited for the MIL).
Re: Chem
It’s important to remember that you *asked* these friends to become your support system, and from their perspective they are just continuing to perform the duties that you requested of them. Because really, five months is an extremely short time to forget how bad things were at their worst. I would make it clear to them — nicely — that you have really appreciated their vigilance on your mental health but that their tours of duty are now over. Emphasize that now that you are capable, you want to enjoy being alive and having friends, and that unless you bring it up again, your health and treatment is the last thing you want to discuss.
It isn’t just mental illnesses that inspire the well-intentioned to kibbutz. People with other illnesses, particularly the more obscure health problems, get it too.
Cinderkeys, that poster is awesome. I have epilepsy, and you would not BELIEVE the number of dickbuckets who try to push their own version of bluegreen algae on me, all because the condition originates in my brain. The “See you on the slopes” is friggin genius.
Dear Chem Sack and others,
You sound like you’ve done everything you can to manage things as well as possible. We have a situation somewhat like yours and Gabrielle’s. One of our children started showing symptoms of bipolar disorder when she was only 2 years old. By the time she was in grade school I had read everything I could and talked to doctors and did everything BUT start her on medication and just struggled along day after day. When she had a 5-day manic episode in the sixth grade and spent a couple hours in the evenings working her way up to telling me she was having suicidal thoughts, we got a referral from a relative who happens to be an internationally known expert in the infant and child psychiatry. He sent us to a psychiatrist who specializes in complex, multiple diagnoses in children and adolescents. She told us all the risks, side effects and possible problems involved with the medications she suggested, but after years of wanting anything other than to put a child on psychiatric drugs, we did so and the stability that followed was a godsend. We’re a long way from being out of the woods, but we’re on the right track. Ever since, well-meaning friends and even my loving brother have questioned this decision. They see this bright, articulate and talented child in public but have never experienced the range of her moods and behaviors. They would be shocked if they did. Quite often I am given examples of how someone else’s kid does “exactly the same thing” when they really have no idea what we are dealing with. I don’t hold it against them because it’s been a long, slow process for us to understand what’s going on with her. It’s taken me years to figure out and truly understand the related ailments in my husband’s family. So when someone talks to you like you’re an organic farmer who’s just decided to go with Chemlawn, just tell them they’re blessed to not have had the experience of mental illness (or whatever) in their lives. The people who DO get it have walked a similar path and we can help each other. Best wishes to all. Stay well.
Chrystk, I’m so happy for you that your little girl is doing well. It took a long time for my sister to be correctly diagnosed. I love her dearly, and am so proud of her. It took her longer than it might take some other people, but she has a degree in biology, which I just find inspiring, and I hope you might find it a hopeful thing for your daughter.