The Vine: Novembama 5, 2008
Dear Sars,
Here’s an etiquette question I can’t seem to find addressed anywhere online.
My in-laws are inappropriately invested in my thank-you-note writing.
I create custom stationery for all occasions for my husband and myself, and now for our new son (wedding paraphernalia, thank-you notes for our bridal shower, wedding, baby shower, gifts received for the baby after he arrived, etc.). My M-I-L seems to love these cards; she would never compliment me directly on something I created, but has mentioned such sentiments to my husband in the past.
The issue is that both she and my father-in-law have directly asked my husband “where” other people’s thank-you notes are, if they have not been received immediately after a gift was given. In fact, some friends of theirs gave my in-laws a gift for our son right after he was born, and my father-in-law got up in my face when they gave it to us about whether these friends would “get” the most recent note I had created, and when they could expect it.
I am typically very prompt in thanking people for gifts given, but will admit that I haven’t yet created, written, and sent out the notes for our son’s baptism last month. He’s an infant, we both work full-time, and we’re lucky to sleep 3 hours in a row right now. The notes are obviously on my list, but they just haven’t gotten done yet. Caring for my son and making sure he’s healthy and fed is more important right now, and I’m sure most normal people would understand that.
But yesterday when my husband was talking to his mother on the phone, I overheard him fielding a question, again, about thank-you notes! My blood was boiling and I’m still steamed.
Is it ever appropriate to hound someone about their thank-you-note writing? Isn’t it really the business only of the gift-giver and the recipient?If it was my mom hassling us, sure, I understand that my manners are a reflection on her. But my husband’s parents know that he never wrote a thank-you note in his life, and this is my gig. Asking him about it is nothing but a dig at me, and I just want someone to tell me I’m right in thinking she should take a long walk.
Can you help?
I’ve no idea how he turned out so sweet
Dear Sweet,
You’re right — she’s out of line.Pointing out the bad manners of others is of course the height of bad manners itself.
But they won’t stop; this is what some parents do.That you’re on the right side of the question won’t help you, and the only thing you can change in the situation is your own behavior and reactions…and, to a certain extent, your husband’s.
First of all, decide to stop caring.It isn’t their business, really, and you shouldn’t devote any time to trying to manage the way they behave when it comes to the thank-you notes.You can, however, ask your husband not to report to you that they’ve asked about the thank-you notes of anyone besides themselves.They can do it; you do not want to hear about it.You understand that it annoys him too, you acknowledge that he has to hear them out, but you don’t want him to tell you about it, because it only stresses you out and makes you resent his parents.
And when you overhear him parrying their nosiness about the notes, as you did this time, remind yourself that this is just what they do, and you will get to the notes when you have time, which most of the actual recipients understand because they live in the world and they get that a new baby does not always permit 100-percent social correctness at all times.
If his parents ask you about the notes, rehearse this snippet so you can deliver it as flatly as possible before changing the subject: “Oh, it’s so sweet of you to concern yourself with other people’s thank-you notes.We’ll get to it soon!Now, how about this other topic?”Repeat.Repeat.Just decline to deal with it.Pair it with a cheery/patronizing smile, and resist the urge to defend yourself, or point out any more explicitly that it’s none of their beeswax.Tell your husband that this is the plan, and that you expect him to back the play with the same sort of rehearsed sentence: “It’s really nice that you’re so worried about your friends — we’re on it.NOW WE WILL TALK ABOUT FOOTBALL.”
Dear Sars,
My boyfriend of a year and a half is a recovered alcoholic who has been sober for almost three years. I didn’t know him when he was drinking, but I’ve heard about what is was like for him, which was: bad. He almost killed himself on several occasions, eventually ending up in the hospital with the possibility of never walking again without the assistance of a cane. (He fell off of a roof while partying.)
He recovered from that, and can walk fine now, but he is obviously carrying around some baggage from the past.
I’m not a huge drinker, but I enjoy a glass of wine or a beer socially. I never claimed to be a non-drinker when we got together; he knew I drank on occasion.
My problem is that when I do choose to drink, he always, without fail, will make me feel horrible about it. “You smell like booze,” “I didn’t know you would be drinking tonight,” and just an overall cold-shoulder treatment.
I never get drunk around him, and drinking isn’t a big deal for me, but if we go out with friends, I can’t touch anything without getting reprimanded. I feel like I’m an adult (I’m 20, he’s 24), and should be able to make my own decisions.Also, we live together, and I don’t bring alcohol home out of respect for him, so I’m not drinking when we are at home alone.
I’ve talked to him about this in the past, but I haven’t been able to make any progress. Although he says he actually doesn’t care if I drink, and I can do what I want, every time I do, he always becomes hostile.
Is there a better way to talk to him about this, without getting defensive and saying, “I should be able to do this”? Or should I just stop drinking around him altogether to avoid these situations?
Thanks for your help,
Staying sober
Dear Stay,
The next time it happens, remind him that he chose to date you although he knew you drink, and that it is unfair for him to punish you for choices that he’s really the one making.You do not drink to excess, you do not pressure him to drink, and you do not think it’s fair for him to expect a change in your behavior now.So, either he can live with you having an occasional margarita, or he can’t, and if he can’t, that will make you really sad — but it isn’t wrong.He just has to decide one way or the other: he can date a moderate drinker, or he can’t.
But if he can’t, he needs to end things with you.If he doesn’t want to do that, he can find a way to cope that doesn’t involve treating you like a recalcitrant teenager.
Look, some people in recovery just can’t spend any time around booze.It varies from person to person.But this is not about you, in the end; this is about him, and whether he feels comfortable sharing his life with someone who doesn’t share his by-necessity all-or-nothing approach to alcohol.And it’s fine if he doesn’t, but he doesn’t get to change those terms on you now and expect you to go along.
Yes, it’s important to be sensitive to his issues, and you should tell him that you care about him and you don’t want to make him uncomfortable or unhappy — you respect that he needs to set boundaries.But if these are the boundaries he wanted, he should have set them up front, and he shouldn’t be passive-aggressive about trying to reset them now.
There’s a difference between respecting his sobriety, and letting his bullshit slide because of it.It may not go your way, but if you don’t lay it out for him like this, you’ll keep having this issue and these arguments.He needs to work this out.Insist that he do so.
Hi Sars,
My cousin is pregnant with their second child, another little girl. They have asked me to be the godmother which, yay! But my aunt brought up the fact that I should throw a baby shower for her…am I wrong in assuming that baby showers are only for the first child? What are the rules about this?
My mother is pretty firm that there should not be another one, but my aunt is thinking it would really help them out as she (my cousin) is recently unemployed and her husband is a seasonal worker.
None of our other friends have two kids so I have no precedent to follow. Plus, the first child is only two years old and therefore my cousin still has the clothes, etc.
I’m not against the idea of it but I’m just wondering what the rules are. Plus, asking all her friends and family for more stuff…I just don’t know what to do. Part of me wants to simply ask her what she would like.
Any advice about second-baby baby showers?
Thanks,
Baby showers should not be this hard
Dear Shower,
I don’t know “the rules” either, but I think the rationale behind showers generally is to help with feathering the nest, for people just starting out — whether it’s a wedding or a baby, it’s about celebrating, and about getting the new couple or baby the basics.
So, once you’ve done it once…yeah, times are tough, but times are tough for everyone, so I would say that a party is fine, but to call it a shower is not, because some guests will feel that they should not have to spring for another onesie or Diaper Genie, which I think is legitimate.
Call it a party or a brunch, something that isn’t a shower; don’t mention gifts on the invitation or include any Babies ‘R’ Us registry-type information.If people ask, which some will, have a list or an online registry you can point them to, but if the idea behind the shower is your aunt’s belief that they’ll have trouble affording new baby things?Your aunt can buy them some new baby things.
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette kids the fam
“Booze is fun, sure, but it’s not as important as a relationship.”
I don’t like seeing it couched this way. I’m sure the author would agree that, in a vacuum, no, alcohol is not as important as a relationship, but SHE really shouldn’t have to make that choice, not when they’re already in the relationship and he already knew that she drinks on occasion when they got together.
I mean, what’s more important to HIM — abstinence from alcohol, or the relationship? He is the one who has a conflict here; I’m not trying to be all “he’s the one who decided to stop drinking, so it’s his tough,” because I’m not unsympathetic to the guy, but if he has an issue with his romantic partners drinking, it IS his responsibility to be clear about that up front, or failing that, to fish or cut bait now that it’s obviously a problem. You can’t change people, only how you deal with them; the change he apparently needs to make here is to break up with her.
He’s asking her to give something up, and on top of that, he’s…not asking. He’s being a passive-aggressive baby to get his way. His way is not per se wrong, but he can ask for it like a grownup.
As for her age: whatever. The 20-year-olds who want to drink are going to drink. Some of them shouldn’t; most of them are fine. I don’t think it’s relevant here, *unless* this guy consciously or otherwise dated her because she’s underage and therefore would theoretically have less access to alcohol — which goes to my point. Dude needs to deal with his own shit. Again, I’m not trying to minimize that struggle, but if you think pouting your girlfriend into not drinking ever again is 1) healthy relationship behavior or 2) going to mean you aren’t tempted anymore? Come on.
I dislike the diabetic analogy for the same reason. It is not reasonable to expect your partner to avoid donuts AT WORK in solidarity with you. It’s not fair that you have diabetes; punishing people who didn’t cause it by viewing every M&M as a personal betrayal isn’t fair either.
Wow! My little question got a lot of answers! Thanks to everyone and Sars for the suggestions. I’m seeing her my cousin this week and I may bring it up and see what she wants.
I’m thinking the stock the freezer idea is great and I might do something like offer to babysit her oldest when the new one arrives. Or offer to come over and help with laundry, that kind of thing. I also love the idea of a theme party where gifts are not required. I’m going to bring this up with the older contigent in this and see.
Thanks again for the suggestions and anecdotes!
Shower
re: Thank You Notes
I will get e-mails from my MIL 1-2 days after an event, birthday or whatever, wondering where my thank you notes are. So now I’ve told her no more “gifts”. And just forward such e-mails to husband, delete.
And yes, your husband is responsible for managing his own crazy parents.
Linda, yes! I’m a little socially awkward, and my parents aren’t from the US. This leads me to never, ever know what “the rules” are. I’m 29, and I just found out yesterday from a wedding magazine at work that in a wedding, the “ring bearer” carries fake rings down the aisle. What the hell is that? Madness.
Linda — really well written comment. I agree wholeheartedly. Let’s save the horror for something truly horrible, and not minor breaches of etiquette.
Those worried about minor breaches of etiquette need not be. True etiquette junkies are always far more worried about following “the code” themselves than they are about others doing the same. And should you ever encounter someone who comments on others’ etiquette breaches in real life, you can rest assured that he/she is in violation of said code.
Oh come on, Linda, LH, DT – what are all these pearls for, if not for clutching? :D
I am from the US and I live in the Bible Belt, and I had no idea relatives aren’t supposed to throw showers. Huh.
If Mr. Recovering Alcoholic started dating casual drinker, knowing, she drank casually, then he really has no leg to stand on getting shirty about her drinking.
It sounds like an issue of passive aggressive control, really. If he can’t deal with her drinking casually and occasionally, he needs to end it. And it’s pretty immature to say you’re okay with something but then be all, “Eww, you smell like booze.”
I’m not saying vegetarianism and alcoholism are the same thing, but I am making a comparison re: personal limitations.
I used to be a vegetarian dating a meat eater. I knew going in that he ate meat, and that if I was going to kiss him there might be meat smell issues, or dining out issues. I was okay with that.
I would have been an ass if I’d acted (or gone in thinking I was) okay with it, and then been all, “You’re gross you smell like meat. Ewww!”
You can’t silently change the rules on someone and expect them to merrily go along with it.
It would have been okay if I’d said, “Sorry, your breath smells too much like tuna for me to kiss you now, can you brush your teeth?”
It doesn’t even sound as if his issue is the effects (smell, behaviour) she has when drinking. He sounds bothered by her drinking at all. And instead of manning up and talking about his issues, he’s trying to alter her behviour by acting like a shitheel. Unacceptable.
I’m not going to say, “If you love him, never drink again.” Clearly, booze is less important than a person.
But if that person is immature and can’t even communicate his wants and needs properly, and treat a person with the respect they deserve, well then why would yuo put up with that?
Shower – I realize this has been answered a million times, but let me just add a ditto to the diaper shower. My SIL had two girls two years apart and agreed that she didn’t need any more clothes or other things, but a diaper shower was really great. She got tons in all different sizes, just piled them up in a corner of the garage, and it really saved them a ton of money and hassle.
If a lot of the mom’s friends also have young kids, you could also throw a party and do a kids’ clothes swap. Everyone walks away with something new, but nobody has to spend any money.
@L.H. — is the ring bearer carrying fake rings an etiquette rule? Every couple I’ve known who had a ring bearer did use fake rings, but I always thought it was a practical, “let’s not entrust expensive jewelry to the five-year-old” thing rather than a “Great-Aunt Edna will be so appalled if we give Tommy real rings on the pillow!” thing.
I sympathize with your wedding etiquette overload! My fiance and I are also planning our wedding and even though I consider myself reasonably etiquette-savvy (prompt thank-you notes, hand-written addresses on the invitations, etc.) things still pop up to surprise me. I just had a lengthy discussion with my mother about whether her name belongs on the same line with my father’s. They’re divorced, and apparently that means they are supposed to be on separate lines, but none of my friends with divorced parents did it that way so I had no clue.
Sars and Eli are absolutely right on about Sober’s boyfriend. You know what’s a bigger threat to one’s sobriety than being around alcohol and drinkers? Being an asshole. Seriously. Dude needs to actually work a program and get honest with himself and her, or he’s got bigger problems than tasting beer when he kisses her.
Wow, this is the very first time I’ve ever heard that relatives aren’t supposed to do showers! Anyone know *why* that’s the rule? Seems odd to me.
Linda – amen! If people want to throw a little party for a baby who is just as important as the first, that is HARDLY a horrifying situation. Darfur? Horrifying. Cake and some new binkies? Totally fine. Some perspective, ya’ll.
Also, I am from a big, Italian family in the Pittsburgh area, and family almost always throws wedding/baby showers, or is at least involved/invited along with the group of friends.
Sweet, I know it’s pushy of your parents-in-law to inquire about the thank-you notes, but it sounds like they may just want an excuse to show off your beautiful handiwork. Also, you said you’d understand if your mom were bugging you, because it would be a reflection on her. Well, if your in-laws deliver a gift from someone, and that person then inquires to the in-laws, ‘Hey, did Sweet like the baptism gift?’ – they probably just remind you about the thank-you note because they’re in the messenger position. And as their daughter-in-law and part of their family, they may think that your actions are a reflection on them as much as their son’s. It’s probably more innocent than you think.
Finally, bear in mind that you’re running on very little sleep, your hormones are raging, and in this state, your husband’s lack of thank-you notage is probably enough to make you want to throw things at his head. If thank-you note follow-up is the biggest problem you have with your in-laws, count your blessings.
Shower – I can’t really answer as to the ettiquette of showers as we don’t really have them in the UK. But as a new mother to an 11 week old I can attest to the usefulness of stocking the freezer or – even better in my case – offers of help with cleaning/laundry. I had NO time for the first few weeks and the mess started to get to me. Offers to help out with running a hoover round or doing a laundry load were invaluable.
Thank you notes – people get in my face about this too because I personally send thank you notes to people I haven’t seen and thanked in person. I’d rather not kill more trees than I have to and if I have *spoken to you and said thank you so much for the gift* then (in my mind) the thanking has happened. It happened, it’s over, no need for a separate note.
Unfortunately some of my relations think this is crazy talk and there must and shall always be thank you notes.
In the end, I think you just have to be happy with the way you do it. I think the thank you notes persons in laws may be ‘subtly’ suggesting they’d rather have a less hand-crafted but prompter note. But whatever their deal is, if it’s not the way you do things and you have good reasons for doing it your way I think all you can say is “that’s not how I do it” and try for the subject change as Sars suggests.
Regarding the thank you notes: am I missing something here? Why on earth is it just the author’s job to write the thank you letters? If my in-laws were pulling that kind of crap I would be swiftly suggesting to my husband that HE takes responsibility for writing thank you notes to anybody from ‘his’ side of the family (his parents’ friends included). They can then complain to him if letters aren’t written promptly enough.
JenV, it’s because the family’s throwing a shower for one of their own carries the appearance of present-greed. A third party, who cannot “benefit” from a grandchild’s or niece’s gifts, appears only generous to a friend.
@Sars on your follow-up to Sober, and also Eli – word, word and word.
secretrebel, Miss Manners actually addressed the “green” issue of thank-you letters recently (you’ll note – she approves of sending LETTERS, not pre-printed CARDS), and said that this is not really a valid reason to hurt the feelings of Great Aunty Edna, who believes in thank you notes, and who will be touched by a concrete expression of gratitude. Recycled stationery ABOUNDS, and truly – there are much bigger ways to preserve our environment – and there are multiple ways to address that “issue” while still expressing the truly meaningful and worthwhile gratitude we feel for those who took time, money (and perhaps even some recycled paper) to recognize their affection and celebration of our special events.
A gift-giver thinks of and puts effort into choosing something to please you. If you know perfectly well that a thank-you note will please them, why would you withhold that from someone whose generosity you have just received?
@L.H.: I’m guessing the rings carried by the ring-bearer are fake because the ring-bearer is often very young. The “Aww” factor trumps the responsibility factor, and we want to HAVE rings at the altar even if darling little Ricky in his tiny tux dropped his basket and everything in it at the back of the church.
@Staying: I bet whatever you end up doing about this will make you feel sad and/or angry and regretful, so really, try NOT to take on guilt because people pop out of the woodwork (and probably not just here!) to say “Oh no, if you really LOVED him you’d give up doing what he doesn’t like!! What’s more important, huh? Huh?” You know this is important, to him because he’s obviously unhappy about it and to you because it makes you feel like he doesn’t want you to be able to make your own darn decisions about what you and your friends can do when he is not even there. So jeez, IGNORE that poke at your guilt buttons.
“‘NOW WE WILL TALK ABOUT FOOTBALL’ should definitely go in the TN Glossary Of Terms.”
Hee. I concur. (And I know nothing about football.) I think most people are doing their level best when it comes to matters of etiquette, and should be given breaks accordingly. I’m a FIRM believer in the idea that pointing out the failure of others’ manners is itself a no-no. Discretion is the better part of valour, and also of good behaviour.
And why does Sweet have to carry the whole thank-you card show? Clearly the creation of the notes is something of a labour of love, and Sweet takes pride in them, but I’m with Jacq here: maybe Mr. Sweet can pitch in?
On the shower thing–you could also host a “chore” party. When the new baby comes, momma will be one tired lady with a newborn and a toddler. How about having a calendar at the party and have people volunteer to stop by and help with chores and/or the older child on certain days after the new baby comes? I’m pregnant with my second, and my oldest will be just shy of 18 months when her little sister arrives. Since they’re both girls, we don’t need any stuff (cloth diapers + breastfeeding = cheap baby), but I know that helping hands and meals would be fab for us.
@Sweet – I would be very tempted to tell the MIL that yes, it’s really appalling her son can’t get off his ass and write the damn notes already. Seriously, did he lose both his hands in a tragic threshing accident and that’s why he can’t write them? Why is this your job entirely? (But, per ADS, if what’s holding you up is making sure the stationary is just perfect, I think you’re focusing on form over function a little too much here. The important thing is to say thank you, not to show off your Photoshop skills.)
@shower I have two daughters three years apart and had no showers for either of them. (Jews think its bad luck — my mother was apoplectic that we had the furniture delivered before my oldest was born.) But I will say that if you do a party, please put someone in charge of taking the toddler elsewhere, or otherwise amusing her, to give the mom a break. Frankly I bet she would appreciate the ability to go take a nap far more than some new clothes.
That said, kids do tend to wear through stuff pretty fast and while new cribs, diaper genies etc. probably aren’t necessary, the bibs, burp cloths, onesies and pajamas from the first kid are probably pretty gross by now.
RE: regionalism and second showers. It’s not regional, it’s pervasive bad taste. Not everyone in the west does this. Gah is right. Just b/c you want it doesn’t mean you get to have it.
Re: Thank you notes…
It’s wonderful that the writer creates her own notes, but another option would be to just buy some ready made notes, dash them off during the baby’s nap over a couple of afternoons, and hell with everyone.
Thank you notes, while polite, can be a chore. And it could be that the longer she puts it off, the more resentful she’ll get about having to do them at all.
There’s no harm in taking a shortcut, especially with a new baby to take care of.
@ Sars and Eli and J.T. : WORD
“It sounds like an issue of passive aggressive control, really.” Why yes, yes it is. The word “controlling” is the first thing that popped into my mind when I read Staying’s question. His behavior is passive aggressive, and designed to make Staying feel like crap. The truth is that he is refusing to acknowledge who she presented herself to be, and never drinking again will not stop that kind of controlling, defining behavior.
To Sweet, re thankyou notes. Now we will talk about football, is a great technique, but with some very persistant in laws it doesn’t work.
Another option to considor is to over respond. That is to sit them down very seriously and ask them why they are so worried about this, over and over and over again. Every single time they bring it up to you you bring everything to a screetching halt, sit down and make them talk about it. Find out exactly what the heck is behind all their bluster. Did you forget a note once? Are they still traumatised that their son never sent notes? ( not your fault obviously) Or this this just some stupid reflexive thing that they do with out thinking?
I loved my MIL ( RIP) but she wold often scold/advise without even listening to herself. for example , We would be concluding a phone call, and she would say ” try to call more often!” So I would say,” twice a week isn’t enough?” “Oh yeah…” She would often hassel me about stuff & not listen to my refusals till I sat her down and made an even bigger deal out of the whole thing than she did. “Why do you keep bringing this up over and over again? What do I need to say so you will stop? Are you sure you aren’t having short term memory loss. etc…” You want to make a big deal, I will make a bigger deal. Trust me, I can do it.
Most of the time they realised that they just weren’t paying attention. My husband is one of four, they often couldn’t keep track of who did what.
Maybe you MIL needs to come over and watch the baby, so you can whip out a couple quickie notes. I do think the keepsake stationary is overdoing it at this point. If you’re planning on more kids, just give it up now. Good luck.
First, on the showers…I didn’t have a bridal shower or a shower for my first child, I did have one for the second. I didn’t plan it, and actually I didn’t know about it, I thought I was showing up to go to a movie. It didn’t seem so much as a time for people to give me stuff for the baby as just a time to get together and have fun and be happy there was going to be this new life. So maybe I’m wrong on the showers, but I’ve never seen them as a time for just being about gifts but being about a new life. So it would seem to me that it doesn’t matter if its the first child or the fifth, if people want to get together to celebrate it, then fine. But I don’t think it should be expected or required and I don’t remember anything about family not hosting one.
As for Sober…..I have a few friends in recovery and some of them can handle a SO that drinks and some can’t. The boyfriend needs to decide one way or another whether he can handle it. And maybe he thought he could, or wanted to think he could, but found he couldn’t deal with any alcohol in his life. Put everything out into the open and see if he can deal with any alcohol in his life. It’ll suck if he can’t, but it’ll save alot of resentment in the end.
I don’t think the shower issue is “pervasive bad taste” (though the mother hinting for one probably is). In fact, given the evolution of baby-having over the past several decades, I’m not surprised people are confused. When my mother had us, the church she worked for threw showers for expectant mothers no matter what number child – but very often it was thrown *after* the baby had arrived. Like a “0th birthday party,” as someone upthread said. And you couldn’t get fancy expensive crap like Diaper Genies, and swings, and Boppies, and $400 carseats or strollers because they didn’t exist (and neither did Babies R Us) or at least weren’t considered “necessary.” So it was a lot of clothes and diapers and baby books, and a cute little cake with a stork on it, yay for baby, here’s your new onsie, the end.
It’s perfectly believable to me that a tradition of throwing a shower for every baby exists and has survived in some regions or among certain generations. And I think it’s equally a product of the past couple of decades, in which technology allows mothers to find out the baby’s sex, registries both online and in-store have become so prevalent, and we’ve become much more a culture of “stuff” that a second shower now seems tacky to a lot of us because it looks like its all about the parents getting more of that stuff. But to treat one way as right and the other as tacky when not 25 years ago showers were a lot less involved than they are today seems like oversimplifying to me.
That said, I think Sars’s suggestion for a simple party, or the subsequent Stock the Freezer or diaper shower ideas, are probably the best bet in this case, given that the expectant mom’s kids are the same sex and so close together.
“I would be very tempted to tell the MIL that yes, it’s really appalling her son can’t get off his ass and write the damn notes already.”
Me too. “My parents drilled the importance of thank-you notes into my head since I was little, and it’s a pity that some parents don’t take the time to instill that same politeness.”
I have literally been writing thank-you notes since I could write, but no one has ever gotten all up in my shit wondering where their note was. By the same token, my friend didn’t send me a thank-you note for the wedding gift I gave her two years ago and I didn’t call her all “where my note at?” because it’s rude. When I hear about her (we live halfway across the country from each other) I think, “She really should have sent me a thank-you note” and go on with my life. MIL stories like these make me really
worried about one day getting married; I guess I’ll have to make it clear to my hypothetical husband that if his family is nuts, God bless ’em, but that’s all him. My family has its ups and downs, but no one is MEAN. The crazy folks are the harmless kind of crazy. :)
I’m in the camp that think baby showers for any baby after the first comes across as gift-grubbing and thus tacky (I would react to a second shower invitation with an annoyed sigh and an “I just GAVE them a baby gift”) but I love to cook so I would be totally happy to whip up a lasagna and bring it by. I think that’s a great idea.
I was in my friend’s wedding a month ago and her two-year-old nephew was the ring bearer and DID carry the real rings, but his dad walked him down the aisle (like, his hands were on the kid the whole time) so I guess they figured that his dad could step in if the kid got the notion to throw the pillow or something.
@Sweet – I would be very tempted to tell the MIL that yes, it’s really appalling her son can’t get off his ass and write the damn notes already.
—
Hee. I totally envision a phone conversation where MIL passive aggressives, “Gee dear, I didn’t hear about Friend getting her Thank You card yet.” and Sweet answering, “Really? I told your son that it was his turn to write Thank You cards since I wrote them last time. I wonder why he didn’t finish them. Hold on…Honey? Your mom wants to ask you why you didn’t write the Thank you notes.” Hands phone to husband. Heads off to takes hot bath with lots of bubbles.
Re the thankyou notes: I’m with whomever suggested MIL is actually very proud of the beautiful notes you send out, and I suspect the fastest way to fix it will be to have generic, not so wonderful notes on hand: for those people she hounds you about – send them a boring note, instead of a pretty one, and make sure hubby passes on the message that as speed was clearly of the essence with that note, a store-bought one would have to suffice.
It could well fix the problem.
Just had kid number two (a boy), who is two years younger than his big sister. We did not have any showers for him. All the major infrastructure is already in place and we can afford to buy diapers and little blue onesies. Also, I ended up having three showers with my daughter (not my idea) and didn’t want to have to write 900 thank you notes again.
Anyway, the point is that unless the family is in extreme economic distress, a second baby shower is tacky. I live on the West Coast, but I’m from the Midwest/East Coast and I’m a little embarrassed that my WC neighbors think showers for a second kid are appropriate. I really love the idea of bringing food for the family and would also suggest that people offer to take the older child out to the park or to lunch, so the new parents don’t have to focus on two kids at once or that offers are made to watch the baby so the parents can spend time with the older kid. I had no idea how exhausting two kids were until I did it and all of our friends have been great about offering to help with one kid or the other (no one is brave enough to take on two at once).
As for the recovering alcoholic boyfriend, if he’s truly in recovery, he should not have an issue with his girlfriend’s light drinking. Part of the recovery process is acknowledging that other people can drink and not have a problem. My former m-i-l was an AA member and she was always very careful to point out that I could have a drink with dinner or whatever. This guy sounds like he’s still too fragile and a bit manipulative and controlling.
@Diane
I don’t see why I should have to follow Miss Manners’ opinion on this. My whole point was that there will always be people who think that there’s a “correct” way to do things but it’s really none of their business. If there was a Ms Manners, it would be nice to think that she would advise that *saying thank you* was more important than the precise form you followed. Why isn’t it sufficient to thank someone in person?
Also, I think you’re making an unfair assumption about my environmental activism. Yes there are bigger ways to help the environment and I don’t limit my greeness to not wasting paper. And why put “issue” into quotation marks, for that matter.
Most of what’s considered “correct etiquette” ™ is a straight-jacket of hidebound antiquated patriarchical nonsense. Perhaps it will be good for my great aunt Edna to receive an honest and heartfelt thank you in PERSON rather than an empty gesture because Miss Whoever thinks it’s the polite thing to do.
I’m agreeing that the shower thing might be regional. I’m from the midwest, and it never would have occurred to me that there’s a “one shower per life time” limit for moms. I think most mothers I’ve known have had a shower for each child. I don’t think buying a onesie, set of pacifiers, etc., every couple of years is that big a deal.
Then again, most showers I’ve known haven’t been that over the top — if the first shower included major gifts of furniture, car seats, etc., then it might explain why a second isn’t necessary (but a scaled-down version would be nice… who doesn’t want pastel cupcakes and a look at cute bibs).
Word that it might be best to ask the actual mother what she needs / wants to do first — you never know, a batch of gifts may be more than she’s up to dealing with, along with the first child.
It makes me sad that Staying Sober’s letter is about a 20 and 24 year old. I’d say the guy (who must have started pretty young to have that much baggage already) needs a girl who doesn’t drink at all — and if he can’t say so, SS should hit the road herself (and find some early 20s, moderate drinking female roommates), because she won’t want to be sharing the house with him if he loses his way and tries to blame it on the alcohol he smelled on her breath.
@secretrebel
I think Diane’s point was that even if you think the in person thank you is sufficient, the reactions from the people you aren’t sending thank you notes to indicate it isn’t. Your attitude seems to be that you’ll do what you want anyway and they can learn to appreciate it- which doesn’t really smack of the gratitude displayed towards gift givers. They want to be thanked in a certain way and Miss Manners agrees. And it sounds like your real problem isn’t the environmental aspect (which is ridiculous, they have all sorts of recycled, bamboo cards) but that you don’t want to be told what to do. Which is fine, so far as it goes, but then don’t be suprised if the people who didn’t get their proper thank you’s are’t put out. I’ve stopped giving gifts to people in the past, who couldn’t be bothered to write my name in a card- which is my choice as much as it was their choice not to bother to thank me.
On Sober: I’m with those who don’t see the problem as drinking or not drinking but on the way he goes about expressing his issues with it. I think it is actually okay for him to find out that he feels different about her drinking than he expected, but the way to deal with that is for him to open his goddamn mouth and tell her honestly that he still has real trouble with alcohol around him. Then they might have a chance at talking it out or working out a solution that isn’t a “booze or me” ultimatum. But he’s been a jackass about it and is making out like it’s her being a bad person. If she really thinks it’s worth trying to resolve this again, I’d suggest she has to be the one with the bald honesty here, and tell him that she’s open to talking about ways to work this out as adults, but the bullying her instead of talking to her honestly stops now.
@secretrebel–Etiquette is one of the few forces to stand between us and our natural tendencies toward greed and laziness. Since people don’t respond well to what’s perceived as greed and laziness, it can be useful to know the conventions, so that we can limit the appearance of being greedy or lazy to times when it’s worth it :-).
re: showers
i’m conflicted; i agree that second showers are gross, but i found my first set tedious as well. here’s my conflict: i’m seperated from my husband and seeing someone who has never been married. if we do get married, i won’t expect a shower from my side…but will his side expect one?
To staying sober – its worth noting that manipulative and controlling behaviour – and I think this fits the bill – is often part of the disease that is addiction. You may want to gently suggest that he take some time to talk about his attitudes, expectations and behaviour re your moderate drinking as part of his recovery process.
secretrebel, you posited a theory in a public forum. I do not understand the need for hostility for someone who responds to your way of thinking.
As LDA reiterates, the point is that the gestures of gift-giving/receiving are supposed to be calibrated for the *recipients* of said gestures, not those making them. Theoretical Edna does something she intends to please you- not only giving a gift, but putting thought into it. If Theoretical Recipient KNOWS that TE’s expectation is to receive a thank-you note, and if TR knows that that would please her … how is resistance to giving her that satisfaction a reasonable response? What did she do to displease TR enough to receive a snubbing, and what reason does TR have for punishing someone who just gave them a present?
The bottom-line equation of etiquette is not a conspiracy of the patriarchy, and certainly not empty gestures. It is a simple method of behaving towards other people in the manner THEY expect/would find kindest/will be most comfortable with. That’s why personal rules of conduct gave way to etiquette itself, consideration of others over ourselves.
It doesn’t have to make sense to you; if you know Edna likes a thank you note – if, for that matter, you know that a large percentage of society as a whole does (and from the comments right here, you should be able to see that it does) – it is ungenerous to put your standards before others’ and ignore their feelings.
By the way, though I agree with the sentiments I posted above, I’d meant it to be clear they were paraphrased from a recent Miss Manners column (yes, she does exist). I was in no way making assumptions about you, nor even personally discussing you. My apologies if it came across that way. Putting “issue” in quotation marks was, however, intended to point out that the MAIN issue in this question is not environmental, but interpersonal. And it’s something which can easily be dealt with – so invoking the environment as justification is considered by many to be a weak excuse for treating other people poorly.
***
Miss Manners is, by the way, a brilliant writer, a feminist, a supporter of ALL people’s rights to live in society with comfort, and nobody’s fool. There’s nothing old-fashioned about treating people with respect for their feelings and expectations. If you think etiquette is antiquated or empty, you have not studied it much, nor put any priority on the feelings of people who do not agree with your system of conduct. We don’t all hold the same expectations, obviously; hence the conventions Jane mentions above.
Even beyond the educational value, I highly recommend Miss Manners (Judith Martin) for her intelligence, usefulness and sheer entertainment value. She’s admired by millions for a reason.
(Not for nothing: secretrebel, I never attacked you, but you resorted to name-calling a woman you know nothing about. How that is a reasonable response to the answer for a question you asked, I am failing to see clearly.)
“There’s nothing old-fashioned about treating people with respect for their feelings and expectations.” Wonderful, @Diane. Just wonderful. And Miss Manners is really wonderful – I read her column every week and enjoy it immensely. She espouses a few simple, lovely principles in many nuanced ways, and it all pretty much comes down to being polite and thoughtful towards others.
I used to drag my feet over thank you notes, much to my mom’s dismay. One day, in college, I received the most wonderful, beautifully-written, effusive thank you note. It was from a client at the B&B where I worked – her daughter’s wedding had taken place the previous weekend, and I had put some extra energy into salvaging her floral arrangements when the florist screwed them royally. The note meant SO much to me, and I still have it (somewhere…). When I realized how much I appreciated a thoughtful, timely, well-written note, I decided then and there to make excellent thank yous a priority.
The difference, to me, between the written note and the in-person thank you is the extent to which you can put the gift *and the giver* into the bigger context of your appreciation. E.g. “Thank you so much for the beautiful bowl. It has found a lovely home in our living room, and we are enjoying it so much. We think of you whenever we see it, and are so glad to have had you as part of our special day. Thank you for sharing in our joy!”
Or something.
I was raised up that you didn’t go to bed on your birthday or Christmas until your thank-you notes were written, addressed, and stamped. I’m still freakish about it. They don’t have to be Ian McEwan, but they do have to be prompt and personal. Prompt is the key word in that sentence; get over the heirloom nature of your cards and start cranking out thank-you notes on embossed ivory correspondence cards — a mere two sentences will fill one and you are done. Or train up your husband to do the job and remove yourself from the situation. Pick your battles with your in-laws; this would not be one I’d choose.
@Sweet: So your in-laws are grilling your husband about when you will be sending out thank-you notes? I’m just … speechless. Oh, wait, no, I’m not. Since you were the one who did all the work having the baby, I think your husband wins sending out the notes on this one.
Regardless of the why, the fact that they’re grilling HIM about why YOU haven’t done X is appalling. They get to grill HIM about why HE hasn’t done X, and it stops there. If the issue is immediacy, I would suggest laying in a stock of nice notepaper and going for promptness, at least for the nonce (“the nonce” and “what with a new baby” are interchangeable here). And for those who suggested it, I don’t CARE if it’s not the thank-you, per se, it’s that his parents are oh, so eager for your special one-of-a-kind notes to go to whomever. That reasoning is even more annoying – no one is entitled to solicit your time and/or creativity on someone else’s behalf as a matter of course. Just because you can do something doesn’t automatically entitle someone else to it. That is, however, a separate issue from the thank-you cards. Again, a nice stock of stationery, with stamps handy, will get any kind of note out faster than trying to produce a work of art while dealing with the demands of a newborn. And a brief, sincere note, rather than a work of art, means that the labor of note-writing can be more easily divided with your husband.
To Stay (and to all those calling her BF a passive-aggressive jackass):
It’s HARD. Unless you are a recovering addict, you have NO IDEA how hard. And this made me wince because I do it – I tell my husband I am fine with him having a beer, because I logically believe I am – he’s not the alcoholic in the relationship, after all – and then he smells like beer and I recoil. I can’t help it. I want to throw up if I get a beery kiss. It is a big deal. I am willing to give Stay’s BF the benefit of the doubt and believe he’s trying to be fine with her drinking. He seems like an inconsistent whiner, but your partner drinking in the abstract and your partner actually smelling like booze are two very different things. One is a logical concept with which you can be completely fine; the other is a gut reaction you can’t control.
Yes, he can control the reaction he expresses. And that is what Stay and he need to talk about: how he’s phrasing his feelings and how she is experiencing the inconsistency. But this is not deliberate manipulation, and I doubt he honestly wants her to stop drinking entirely, because if it’s as moderate as she says, he can see that when he’s being logical. But logic goes out the window when you are in recovery and actually around people who are drinking. His skin is probably crawling at every one of these social events, and his GF is the only person to whom he can actually say anything.
They need to talk. He needs to decide if he shouldn’t go to these social events with her, or if he can agree to talk himself down from the edge of thinking one drink is going to put her under the table (I had to learn to do that). She needs to accept that when they come home from these events, she’ll have to brush her teeth before kissing him, and not to take that personally. But this is not manipulation, this is not wanton jackassery, this is someone living with an addiction, and that is incredibly hard, and enormous props to him for three years of sobriety.
It’s not easy dating a recovering addict, either, and not everyone should sign on for it. Stay, if you knew he was a recovering alcoholic when you started dating him but you thought all that meant was that he wouldn’t drink, well, this may be the awakening you needed. There is emotional baggage like whoa here, and if you can’t deal with it, then you DO need to leave. The talk the two of you need to have about this will probably tip the scales one way or another, because he doesn’t just have to respect your feelings toward alcohol, you need to respect his.
Don’t get defensive. Set aside the time for this talk; don’t have it after a night out. Point out his inconsistency and tell him how it makes you feel, and ask him if he thinks he can be okay with it and then he has an enormous emotional reaction that he didn’t want or expect to have, because that’s what I think is going on. He does need to work on controlling those gut reactions, and on trusting you, but you have to be open to a lot of emotional stuff, NONE OF WHICH IS ABOUT YOU, if he is going to feel he can trust you. That is the crux of this long missive: his issues are with alcohol. They are not with you. And as long as you think this is about him punishing you, or about you personally in any way, it’s only going to get worse.
Mary, all my sympathy, believe me. For me it turned out to be easy; I wound up, most of the time, with people who just … didn’t drink. Some of them were real stunods anyway, but they didn’t drink. Turns out, as the daughter of an alcoholic, I have some aversion to drinking and being with folks who do, who knew?
A question for you: my brother, God love him, is a recovering alcoholic. I don’t keep booze in my my house, so that’s not a problem, but … I cook. And I stopped dead at a couple of recipes that called for wine in the sauce (sauce in the sauce?). I didn’t know if “all the alcohol [will] burn off” was true; I didn’t know if just the flavor would be enough to set him off. It wasn’t worth the possibility, to me, so I just skipped that part of the recipe, but I would be grateful if you wanted to pitch in your two or three cents about that (specifically, cooking or flavorings with alcohol). My brother wins out over any food, but I’d like your take on it.
Thank you, and good luck to you, too, on your journey.
LaBellaDonna,
Thank you for the sympathy. At this point in my sobriety, it’s really just the way I live now, and I stay away from the boozy parties my friends still sometimes have. My husband and I are also a decade older than Stay and her BF, so we don’t go out much anyway. But I felt compelled to stick up for someone who is still struggling with the “how much can I ask of the people around me?” part of recovery. You’re torn between wanting to create as safe an environment as you require and feeling incredibly guilty over asking even more of people who put up with your self-destructive behaviors before you quit. (Not in Stay’s case, as she wasn’t around while he was drinking, but the guilt is not always rational.)
Anyhoo! Cooking with booze I think varies from person to person. I’ll eat sauces made with wine, but I always appreciate it when someone cooking for me asks. I won’t eat, say, tiramisu, or desserts made with booze in general, as usually in those cases the alcohol isn’t cooked. I don’t know how much does really burn off in sauces, but my rationale is that if somebody could buy the jarred equivalent in a grocery store without an ID, then it’s okay. The taste doesn’t bother me, but wine was never my drink anyway.
I would just ask your brother, the next time you invite him over for dinner, how he feels about it. Good resources for adapting recipes which call for wine or alcohol-based extracts are Liz Scott’s The Sober Kitchen and Sober Celebrations.
Mary – thanks for taking the time to offer some insight into this issue. I don’t have a lot of context for the types of issues folks in recovery deal with, and I appreciate getting a little glimpse of what some of it means. This seems like one of those things that is really hard to intuitively figure out without having been there (or be closely connected to someone who has been there) and I think it’s great that you’re so willing to share so that those of us without first-hand knowledge can understand.
Thanks, bossyboots!
I mean, obviously I don’t know the guy and he might be a grade-A tool. But my hackles get all kinds of up over the constant refrain of “he knew she drank when they started dating, so tough crap” going on here, and no one is addressing the extremely obvious (to me) fact that SHE started dating a recovering alcoholic but thought all that meant was that he doesn’t drink now; and then, lo and behold, the person with the addictive personality and the self-destructive past turns out to have some emotional issues! Gee, who knew? And she, and many commenters, are acting like her ignorance of what being with an addict means is equivalent to blatantly false advertising on his part. Like she got ripped off. No relationship comes with a guarantee, least of all a relationship with someone damaged.
This guy feels guilty and shamed and tempted every day of his life. Yeah, he needs to communicate better. But if this is his girlfriend’s attitude on the topic, why would he feel that he COULD communicate with her? Why should he feel that he can trust her with his emotions around alcohol? You feel unbelievably vulnerable talking about it, no matter how long you’ve been sober: it’s admitting to an overwhelming weakness. She says she knows he has emotional baggage; she just obviously didn’t expect any of that baggage to inconvenience her. If this is the most problematic thing your alcoholic boyfriend does, honey, you are golden.
Like I said, dating those in recovery is not for everyone. No shame if she can’t handle it. But I think there’s big shame in turning it around like this. He doesn’t like the person sharing his bed to smell like the substance which nearly killed him, and which represents a time in his life when he either didn’t care if it killed him or actively hoped it would. He needs to articulate this, and negotiate the terms of it within his relationship, but he’s not a jerk for wanting it.
OKAY I’LL STOP TALKING NOW.
I don’t think we need to act like her ignorance of what being with an addict means is her fault, either. One of the challenges that addiction presents, for him, is having to articulate it to people who don’t understand it firsthand; that’s annoying for him, no doubt, but if she were as blithely self-absorbed as you’ve portrayed her, I doubt she’d have written to me at all. She’d just have dumped him and found someone who’s less trouble…which nobody really is, everyone just has different problems.
*She* wrote to me, though, is the thing. I can sympathize with him or not; what SHE asked me is how to deal with this, and she’s within her rights to ask him to speak about it frankly instead of making it a constant passive-aggressive issue. No, he’s not a jerk for wanting her not to smell like booze, but if he’s behaving *like* a jerk in the service of getting what he wants, and she wants to know how to put a stop to that, well, that doesn’t make *her* a jerk. It makes the situation complicated.
Fair enough; obviously I’m reacting according to my own huge bias here. If it’s his first relationship since he stopped drinking, then he didn’t know what dating sober meant going into it, and they’re both on confusing ground. I may be giving him more benefit of the doubt than he deserves by assuming he’s not intending to be manipulative, and I agree completely that he’s not articulating his needs in any helpful way whatsoever. I hope both of them can be flexible, because they’ll need it.
re: the 2nd shower
A good friend of mine threw a “time capsule party” for her second baby. Friends and family gave all sorts of stuff like popular CDs, a cell phone, current issues of magazines, Kerry/Edwards T-shirt (this was a few years ago, obviously) Desperate Housewives board game, etc. Then the parents-to-be sealed it all up in a steamer trunk to be opened when the kid is 18. Of course, everyone ended up bringing baby gifts in addition to the time capsule relics. It was a fun party to celebrate the new baby without turning into a tacky gift grab.
To be fair, while I did not have a second…or third shower I did make a baby registry and gave it to everyone I knew who I thought might be interested in getting us something or specifically expressed interest (Family and close friends).
Not everyone has the space to pack up a small storage locker full of clothing and gear for three years (the spacing between each of my children). I don’t think it’s fair to expect people will have kept everything necessarily. I sold off, donated, and freecycled everything my children grew out of to make room for the stuff they needed at the next stage of their life.
If you think someone could USE a baby shower for a second child or third child or whatever, for whatever reason (they moved cross country and got rid of non-essentials, it’s been quite awhile between their children) and you are not put out by the idea and think people would come and have fun or what have you. I see no problem in throwing one. You are, however, certainly not obligated.