The Vine: September 23, 2009
Dear Miss Bunting,
Thank you for making me laugh until my sides hurt. It’s funny because it’s true.
I would greatly appreciate it if you would clarify another word faux pas. My head spins off of my shoulders when I hear the expression “reverse discrimination” or “reverse racism.” I am by no means an English scholar but common sense tells me that is it either discrimination or it is not. It is either racism or it is not.
Thank you again. I have saved your site to my favorites. I’m sure I will be referring to it often.
TJ
Dear TJ,
Thanks for the compliments!
My sense of that term is that, on the strict usage point, you’re right: “discrimination” and “racism” mean what they mean, and the addition of “reverse” is redundant.”
That said, and keeping in mind that the point of correct usage is clarity, “reverse” does indicate additional information, namely that the party suffering the bigotry in question is the group usually considered the majority — Caucasians, males, et al.
Garner doesn’t have a note on the usage, but Kenneth G. Wilson in The Columbia Guide to Standard American English notes that the term “is a somewhat illogical but idiomatic Standard English locution, meaning ‘discrimination against members of a majority, which is claimed to give unfair advantage to members of a minority'” (372).
…What he said, in other words.I don’t have a problem with the term, because I think it implies something that simply “discrimination” doesn’t — although clauses like “reverse discrimination against white people” are redundant and should be avoided.
Sars,
After living in Atlanta for several years, last October I decided to move to a much smaller town in a neighboring state.I now work in a small, family-owned company of about 20 and ever since I came to work here, everyone has been nothing but welcoming and friendly to me.
They are all Sunday-churchgoing, Wednesday-Bible-School-going Christians who seem to be trying to live good lives and raise their children to be compassionate, caring and intelligent people.I genuinely like my co-workers, but sometimes I cringe at the things some of them say.
It started last winter with the anniversary of Roe v. Wade.A co-worker took her son with their church group to D.C. to protest.When she came back, many of my co-workers commended her for doing “the Lord’s work.”I’m a Democrat, feminist, agnostic, and pro-choice, but said nothing because I don’t discuss anything remotely political at work.She showed me pictures of their march and I made innocuous comments like, “Oh, is that Washington Monument in the background?” but otherwise kept my mouth shut.
A few months later a different co-worker was changing her voicemail message.I happened to be passing by her desk as she was finishing listening to the playback.She told me that she hates hearing the sound of her voice and asked me if she sounded “like a fag.”I was so startled that I did one of those nervous laughs.Then I told her no and kept walking.
Fast forward a few more months, and we’re back to Co-Worker #1.She lives out in the country and was telling me that their backyard is filled with things her family doesn’t use anymore.Then she whispered, “It looks like a n*****’s back yard.”This is a woman I admire in so many ways, and to hear her say something like this was deeply unsettling.I said nothing and we finished the conversation.
And now we come to this past Monday.A client, who was Hispanic, had just left, and a co-worker said he didn’t know how a Mexican came to have such nice cars.His theory was that the man was obviously a drug dealer.I had to refrain from bashing my head against my keyboard.Once again, I kept silent.
Like I wrote above, they can be very compassionate and wonderful people (and I judge this not only by their words but also by their actions), but some of the things that come out of their mouths are just so offensive to me.
Do I tell them that I find what they say is offensive?I’m a very non-confrontational person, but maybe I should say something.Do I say nothing and just roll my eyes in private?Sars, I don’t know what to do.
Wondering when someone will forget that I’m half-Asian and make a remark about gooks
Dear Wonder,
Say something.It doesn’t sound like you work in the kind of company that has policies about that sort of speech, and while it is in fact creating a hostile work environment — on top of being, you know, ignorant and wrong — I doubt you’d get far phrasing it as such.
But it just is not acceptable, and you should make that clear.And I empathize with you; put in the same position myself in the past, I’ve felt shocked and disappointed, and also resentful, on a petty level — like, on top of the fact that they think this toxic nonsense, they’re also dumb enough to say it out loud?”Hateful and ignorant” isn’t enough — you’ve got to add “rude” to the list?
Not to reduce racism to a social discomfort, obviously, but in the end, playing it as one is probably your best bet in terms of stopping the comments.”Remarks like that make me very uncomfortable.””That term makes me very uncomfortable.”And then just let it sit there, or excuse yourself and go elsewhere before you can apologize for making them uncomfortable, or get into a debate about your sense of humor.
You have to work with these people; they have other good qualities; nothing occurs in a vacuum, and I think we all feel you on how hard it is to call people on inappropriate remarks like that.I don’t know which of these co-workers is higher ranked than you in the company, or what other recourse you have; I do know that it’s not going to turn into some Very Special Workisode where everyone learns a very important lesson about whatever.”From fools they were made and to fools they shall return,” as my mother occasionally says.But it isn’t right, it does make you uncomfortable, you have been at pains to keep it zipped about your political beliefs, and I sense that you are more uneasy about letting it go, ethically, than you are about confronting the issue.
It sucks that you have to do it at all, I know, but: you do.You can’t make them Get It, but you may be able to make them shut it, which is something.Good luck to you.
Dear Sars,
I have a sticky etiquette question, and time is coming for me to make a decision about it, and I’m stuck. Surely you and The Vine readers can give me some insight, right?
Backstory: I have a large, close group of friends. The group is composed of people with whom I went to Crazy Artsy Public University in Texas, plus the wives/husbands/partners of those people. We’ve known each other for between 10 and 15 years, and we’ve been through a lot.
These are the people who’ve always had my back and who really function as my family. As such, we put up with things from each other that we might not from others, and we try to give each other slack when we mess up. It’s worth preserving the friendships to be pretty forgiving of all but the most major fuck-ups.
One of my oldest friends in the group is T. About 8 years ago, T married B. I have since gotten to be friends with B in her own right, and for the most part I enjoy her. She has a tendency not to really listen to what you say, which is irritating, but once you know it, you kind of work around it and learn to live with repeating yourself. I don’t always like how she will talk over the top of T and try to either demand attention or change the subject when T is talking to one his friends, but that’s another Vine letter and not really germane to the dilemma in which I find myself.
ANYWAY. T is a public-school teacher, and B has worked at a various clerical jobs over the time I’ve known her. They own a rather large house in a nice subdivision, and drive cars that are less than two years old. I bring this up because B is constantly on about how broke they are, about how “tired [she is] of only having $300 a month left after bills.” Now, I recently went through the breakup of a marriage which left me broke and with wrecked credit, about which the group knows the basic facts. So I would be dancing for joy if I had $300 left at the end of the month, but I try not to play “My financial problems are worse than yours” with anyone because it’s petty.
The thing is, B’s obsession with how “broke” they are has started to cause some serious breaches of etiquette — she will offer to host a party, and then ask everyone to bring everything — not talking basic potluck here, but as in B and T provide nothing but the space. Last time I was going to their house, she called and needed paper plates, napkins, cups, beer, in addition to the batch of potato salad I was already bringing.
I’m not too shy to say something’s not in my budget when it’s not, but that does not seem to deter her. In conversations about money, I’ve offered her my strategies, but she is unwilling to give up the extensive cable package, dinners and lunches out 5-6 times a week, or other things that would probably help them financially.
The issue I need advice on is this. (See, I told you I had a point.) T and B host an annual Halloween party, which is always fun. It’s typically appetizer potluck style, which works well — I bring some beer and something to share, as does everyone else. This year, B has decided it would be fun to host a murder mystery dinner, Clue-style. She’s worked out an awesome story, and cast the parts well. It looks to be fun.
I got the Evite the other day and I see that not only are we each required to bring a beverage and a potluck dish, but there is a $15 per person cover charge for the party. There are approximately 15 people coming to this party. If she were providing the entire meal, I would balk less, but since we are also contributing the food and drinks, I think this is unreasonable.
Then there is part of me who wonders if T and B are having financial issues that are more serious than I realize, that they won’t talk about — T gets angry when B talks about money with the group — and this is her way, however hamfisted, of trying to fix it. I want to help them as much as I can if I they are hurting, but $15 plus whatever else I bring is not chump change to me at this point as I’m rebuilding my financial life. However, I am also hesitant to back out, since I agreed to be in the cast. Had I known about the cover charge up front, I would have declined, but she waited until the Evite, when everyone was already committed to the cast, to spring the cover charge on us.
What do I do? I feel like the partygoers count on me as part of the cast. If my friends are hurting for money so bad they are shaking us down like this, I want to find a way to help. But the fact is, I can’t afford this, and I’m pissed as hell at the way she did this. I don’t want to lose my friends, but I’m at the cracking point.
Even the clubs go no-cover on Halloween, for fuck’s sake
Dear Clubs,
Try to leave all the other ancillary issues aside — the previous cheapskatery, the whining about money coupled with unchecked discretionary spending — and focus on the Halloween party and only the Halloween party.The problem as I understand it is that, in addition to asking you to provide a beverage and a potluck dish, and asking you to perform at the party, B is also charging you, a cast member, $15 to even attend — and did this on the Evite so that everyone would feel too chastened to call her on it.
Yeah, the thing is?No.B should have waived something for the cast in the first place, given that it’s a time commitment and a favor you guys are doing her — if you take part in the show, you can skip making a dish or bringing booze, something that acknowledges your extra effort.She certainly shouldn’t charge cast members admission, and she really shouldn’t charge anyone else, either, because it’s not covering any stated cost: the talent is free, the guests pack in their own food and drink, and maybe it’s for costumes or clean-up or whatever, but when you host a party, you assume these costs.Don’t want to buy soda, or pay a maid service?Don’t have a party.Simple as that.
Even if this is a misguided attempt to ensure that no uninvited guests are tempted to crash, Evite offers about a dozen zero-cost ways for a host to do that — and again, this is B’s problem, not yours or any other guest’s.
Decline the invitation, and tell her why.”I’m sorry — between the food prep, the cast time commitment, and the booze, I’ve already given what I can afford.The extra $15, about which I was not told in advance, is simply too much.Have a great time.”You can do this on the Evite so that everyone else can see it, which might encourage other guests who are similarly nonplussed by the social tone-deafness to follow your lead, or you can do the classy thing and send her an email.
She’s doing this at least in part because she thinks nobody’s going to call her on it; based on the backstory, she’s…probably right.You and the rest of the circle want the skinflinting to stop, you’ll have to start declining invitations, showing up sans booze to parties, and otherwise enforcing the notion that “host” does not mean “one-night landlord.”
Tags: etiquette grammar workplace
Re: Clubs’s friend: I especially love the detail of the amount of the cover. Not $10, not $20, but $15. Something you have to make change for. That’s just a stick in the eye.
I have a friend who loved to throw parties, only as long as I was on hand to do all the prep and cleanup with her. She passive-aggressively would contact me about the party start time and add “but if you could come 3 hours early, that’d be great.” So one instance of my coming to the party on time instead ended that bad habit right there.
Hosting parties is hard work and expensive. There’s no shame in paring back when needs must. There is, in my view, shame in offloading the work and the expense onto your guests, especially if they don’t volunteer with that in mind.
If I were Clubs, I’d totally do the public refusal on the Evite, for exactly the reason you mentioned, Sars. I’m willing to bet Clubs isn’t the only one wondering what to do in this case. Hell, $15 isn’t a big deal to me, thank goodness, and even *I’d* be pissed if I got an Evite like that. If not for me, then definitely for my friends that I know can’t handle all the costs involved in such an invitation.
I cannot imagine charging people to attend a party I’m throwing. It’s so beyond all rules of etiquette that I believe in, the thought of it hurts my head, for pete’s sake.
$15 to attend a house party? I live in Miami, and we pay that much for cover at a South Beach club (ok, sometimes more, but whatever). I really feel for Clubs … I have friends who bitch and moan about not having money, but they’re driving brand new cars and going out to dinner twice a week, while I am driving an 8 year-old car, and make dinner every night.
I like the idea of responding to the Evite so that other invitees can feel open to respond in kind.
To Wonder: I live in South Florida, and am from Boston, which is arguably one of the most liberal cities in the country. I was here for a month when a woman who I worked with said, “Oh you work with the gays? I just don’t believe in that lifestyle.” I was dumbfounded, and speechless, and really horrified, but said nothing. I really regret it now … I no longer work with her, but I feel like I let my friends and myself down by keeping my mouth shut. Since then, I have heard all sorts of racist comments, and have simply told each offender that I do not want to hear these comments, that I find them wrong, and quickly drop the subject. I’m not Norma Rae, and am not rabblerousing, but at the same time, I make sure that I am not silently including myself in these discussions. I feel like not correcting bad behavior makes me a cohort in this bad behavior.
I was in a very similar position as is now Wonder several years ago. I was the new girl in a very small office and everyone was very sweet – then one day I overheard two co-workers having a conversation in which they both agreed that if someone was gay, they shouldn’t be permitted to teach children because they would probably end up molesting them. I was stunned and wondered what I should do, if anything at all. Then I thought of all the wonderful, lovely friends I have who are gay, and thought how hurt they would be if I said nothing in the face of such hurtful and outrageous statements. So, I got up, walked over to where they were having this conversation and said, “I’m sorry, I couldn’t help over-hearing your conversation, and I just have to say – being gay DOES NOT mean someone is a pedophile – actually, most pedophiles self-identify as heterosexual. I have many gay friends and I wouldn’t hesitate to leave my son with any of them – and I can’t always make that statement about some of my straight friends!” They were a little surprised, and I’m sure there were comments made out of my earshot, but that was okay – they also never made those kinds of comments around me again.
Sigh…”as Wonder is now” is what I MEANT to say…
Wonder: I had a similar situation with my dad, he uses various racial epithets and other assorted slurs freely. When I started college I told him several times that those words bother me and to please not use them around me. It took a while, but eventually he got the hint. He thinks I’m a bit of a ninny for taking offense at those words but at least he doesn’t use them around me anymore. You can’t really change their attitudes but you can at least try to change the way they talk around you. They’ll probably think you’re overly sensitive and might talk about you behind your back but that’s a hit you’ll have to take.
One quick point of clarification on Clubs’s letter — Sars, at murder-mystery dinners, usually everyone is part of the cast (you’re all pretending to be suspects and trying to get information out of each other). I’m not 100% sure if that’s the case here, but I think it’s likely that all 15 guests are cast members with a role to play, based on the ones I’ve attended.
If Clubs doesn’t want to post the reason for her decline on the Evite, I would suggest talking to fellow cast members, asking if they knew about the cover charge, and seeing if Clubs could help embolden a few more people to tell B that asking for $15 on top of requiring people to bring food AND beverages is unreasonable. If B hears it from one person she might think Clubs is just being selfish or cheap; if she hears this from multiple people, and multiple people back out, she’s more likely to get the message that she’s the one behaving badly.
Clubs: Don’t go to that “party.” B has a month to re-cast and re-rehearse before the performance, and you can find better things to do with your time and money. (If you wanted to be really wicked you could recruit some of the other invitees / friends / bank-rollers to an alternative activity and completely ruin B’s party, but that might be too much.)
I’m not sure this will help Wonder, but one of the things I do since I work in an office where everyone is of very different political and other beliefs (though, not nearly so outright bigoted) is bring a little levity into it when they start off on a spiel. When they start talking politics near me, I’ll walk away with my hands over my ears singing or ‘lalala-I can’t hear you’ etc. it requires the other people to have a sense of humor and the common sense to understand that the work place isn’t the proper place for such discussions, but as a non-confrontational person myself, it was the best way I could find to deal with it. They now realize that I don’t necessary agree with their viewpoints and most of the time are careful not to talk about them when I’m around. Politics tends to be much easier to deal with than some of that other crap, though.
“Wondering when someone will forget that I’m half-Asian and make a remark about gooks”
Darlin’, I’m sure they already do, preceded by a quick look around to make sure you’re not there. You’ve GOT to say something, for your own sake. As Bill Engvall says, you can’t fix stupid. But maybe you can make it think twice before spewing hate all over your workplace.
I’m sure thier client would be very interested in the comments made about him. Maybe he reads the Vine!
Totally on board with your advice to Wonder, but I did want to make a distinction with Wonder’s list of grievenaces. I don’t consider it offensive to show pictures of a rally someone attended in DC. Maybe it’s not appropriate for work, but I don’t consider it eggregious (regardless of what your feelings are on the issue). I’m wondering if Wonder would have found it just as offensive if the rally was pro choice.
Now, all those other things that happened at work – offensive. And yes, say something.
Wonder, I feel your pain. I moved to middle GA three years ago and have been left in shock several times since by people’s casual racism and homophobia. I don’t have a 100% track record on Speaking Up, to my shame. But I’m getting better. I am a teacher so I try to look at it in terms of a “teachable moment.” A while back I was in the middle of wheeling & dealing with a plumber for some well parts when someone called him about an estimate. He got irritated with her as he was giving her the price for a service call, and when he hung up, he said, “Did you hear that accent?” (I hadn’t.) The caller was south Asian or Middle Eastern (I believe the term “towel-heads” was invoked) and, according to Mr. Plumber, “those people” are always complaining about high prices. I said, “Well, I think wanting a good deal when you have to pay for something is a universal value, don’t you?” There was definitely some apologetic spluttering after that.
I would love to be more direct in my approach and hopefully one day I will be, but my experiences suggest that ANY speaking up against discriminatory speech gets the message across that it’s not cool. I guess another way to think about it is that if they’re okay with showing their prejudices, we should be okay with calling them out on it.
@Shissher: A friend of mine once had the best response to something along the lines of: “Oh you work with the gays? I just don’t believe in that lifestyle.” Without a pause he came back with, “Well, we aren’t talking about Santa Claus here, gay people exist whether you believe in them or not.” Obviously that isn’t quite what she meant but the look on her face was priceless and when she responded with, “Well it’s just immoral,” he came back with, “So is intolerance. Did you see that article on the Tut exhibit?” that did get the point across that he wasn’t interested in hearing her opinions on the matter.
Granted, that’s a bit more confrontational than a lot of people would be comfortable with, but he’s one of those people who is able to say things like that and still sound like he’s making pleasant conversation so it works for him.
@Wonder, I don’t envy your situation, but it is important to speak up if for no other reason to stop it from building up inside you until you explode on someone at a very inopportune time.
@Club, what Sars said, just decline and say you didn’t realize there would be a cover and you can’t afford it. Even if you are the only one to say anything others are thinking it so if she bitches she won’t have a very captive audience. It is a perfectly legit reason for declining.
My understanding of the term “reverse racism” is that it’s pretty misleading; “racism” means prejudice plus power. “Bigotry” or “prejudice” is a better word for the stereotypes and negative ideas and actions that whatever oppressed group (in this case, I would assume people of color in America) have/take against the privileged group (in this case, white people). Prejudice by, say, black people against white people isn’t backed up by historical and institutional racism. It’s bigoted, but it’s not racist.
This article by Tim Wise is probably as focused on this specific question as others are, but it’s pretty good and the first one I found on short notice: http://tinyurl.com/cvojkt
I’m thinking Clubs should just send an e-mail and call her out about the $15. Directly ask what the heck it’s for. And maybe someone else from the group should call dibs on hosting the Christmas party this year — otherwise you all might be subsidizing her Christmas gifts too.
@Sharon — good for you for standing up to your co-workers. That’s a really hard thing to do. I’m 15 years out of college and I still regret a couple of instances where someone made an offensive remark and I didn’t say anything.
With that said, I would probably tread pretty lightly on the abortion issue. By that I mean maybe saying that you’d rather not discuss those types of things at work rather than getting into a discussion of pro-life v. pro-choice. If they’re applauding the killing of an abortion doctor or something, I’d let them know that I was offended, but talking about going to a pro-life march…I’d leave it at “I prefer not to discuss this at work.”
A suggestion for “Wonder”…
You may want to check out this website by the Southern Poverty Law Centre – http://www.tolerance.org/handbook/speak/speak – it has a specific section discussing how to address offensive comments in varying situations like school, family, work, etc. Some of it seems a touch unrealistic, but I think the basic premises are very sound.
The “At Work” section may not be as helpful for you because it focuses a bit on non-harassment policies, which I imagine many smaller businesses do not have. But the “Friends and Neighbours” and the “At School” comments are as applicable to you situation.
A few items that stood out for me in your situation:
1) Be prepared. Think back on the individual offensive comments and be ready with a specific response in the future.
2) Focus on the behaviour. (When you said X, I felt uncomfortable etc.)
3) Appeal to Principles. (You always struck me as a welcoming person, so why would you say something like X?)
4) Find allies. Try to see if your supervisor feels that there has been an unprofessional tone operating in the office. Especially if people are commenting on paying customers – that can have a significant bottom line impact.
Any way, good luck. It takes courage to say something, but it is worth it.
Wonder:
I’ve found that saying “please don’t say things like that to me” a civil, even tone works really well.
Simple is better. And, yes, maybe some of the idiots at your job might think you a “prude” or something, but not tolerating racism, sexism and anti-gay remarks is not a social faux pas.
Good luck!
In terms of Club backing out on the Halloween party – it’s still September. I’m guessing there are still several weeks until this shindig, even if it’s not happening on 10/31. It would be a different story to back out the week of the party, what with the assigned roles and all, but a month out? Totally fine. Personally, I’d let her know in an email rather than on the Evite, and I don’t think I’d get the herd to chime in. Even when people are being complete dinks, it really does feel better to just be straight with them in a polite but firm way, rather than looking for something to Teach Them A Lesson.
In terms of fixing the longterm problem, can anyone else host gatherings? If group shindigs are regularly happening at T and B’s house and folks don’t care for the way T&B handle their hosting duties, it might be time for others to take the reins and let T&B settle into their roles as guests who can’t dictate who has to bring what.
That is, of course, assuming someone is able to host. I agree with Sars – when you assume the role of host, you assume certain costs of the event. If no one in the group has the means to appropriately host large get-togethers, it’s also okay to scale down the guest list and do smaller things with fewer people.
@Very: I don’t have an issue with it either, in and of itself, but the larger issue in this case is that Wonder’s co-workers assume their beliefs to be the majority opinion, and behave accordingly, both in this case and in the more egregious bigoted comments. This is why many companies have specific policies about this sort of thing; this is why a successor of mine several jobs ago got bounced for leaving “literature” around the office. Especially with something as loaded as the choice discussion, you just have to keep that out of the workplace for everyone’s comfort.
But her co-workers assume that everyone is like them, or thinks like them, or is too cowed by them and their rightness to speak up, and that’s where I feel the pictures are problematic.
@Wonder: just cheers from the peanut gallery. Let us know how you make out. And if any of them are dim enough to ask, “Why not?” when you say, “Please don’t say things like that,” this sounds like a group that might actually pay attention if you respond,”Because God told me that it’s wrong.” Meanwhile, although you may have to tread carefully, at least you aren’t treading water. Good luck to our friends in the city now know as Atlantis.
@TJ: Nobody has a monopoly on stupid, more’s the pity.
@Clubs: B’s behaviour is wrong on So. Many. Counts. I suggest that you decline the unexpected, unanticipated cover on the Evite, and being frank about it: You were bringing beverage and food, you can’t afford a $15.00 cover, too. I have an Outrage Headache that a woman who is driving a nearly new car, dines out for lunch and dinner on a regular basis, and kicks back to watch her cable shows when she’s not out dining, thinks it’s OK for her friends to pay good cash money for the privilege of bringing their food to her house. T may be pissed that B is talking about money issues outside the family; many people are just plain Private about financial matters. Or it may be that T would like to do all the sensible things that you’ve suggested to B, and she isn’t ready to give anything up, regardless of any fiscal straits; she wouldn’t be the first person I’ve met who’s like that.
What B is doing with regard to the Hallowe’en party is unconscionable and inexcusable, and if you call her on it, you may give courage to other people who are also fed up with B’s style of “entertaining”, so that they, too, can say “No!”
Maybe you can talk to T privately, some time soon; at least where I live, a public school teacher and a clerical worker aren’t usually rolling in money; it’s very possible that B’s spending habits (either alone or in conjunction with T’s spending) may have brought the couple close to bankruptcy or divorce or both; it wouldn’t be the first time, and T may well need someone who understands feeling the economic pinch.
(You’re not the only one, either; $300 at the end of the month sounds awfully good to me, too.)
“Well, we aren’t talking about Santa Claus here, gay people exist whether you believe in them or not.”
I like this. Quite a lot. Do we have another t-shirt idea?
@Clubs: What I think takes real cojones is that you say your friend worked out the story herself. I know those murder mystery parties can cost money. But if she wrote it herself, what in the WORLD would you be paying for?
Yeah, I think the party where you have to bring everything AND pay $15 is right out. That particular person sounds like a jerk.
On the other hand, I don’t take a particularly hard line about the practice of asking people to kick in a little something if the host is covering the costs, with the understanding that people who don’t want to won’t come, and that’s okay.
Speaking for myself, I’m no more offended by being asked to contribute $5 toward whatever the party costs than I am by being asked to bring food to a potluck. I’m not really talking about having five people over to dinner, but with larger events where the costs are significant, I just personally…don’t care. I’m not there for the free food; I’m there to see the people. The hosting, to me, is more about the organizing and the putting together of the event. I’m not saying it doesn’t put a lot of people off, because clearly it does and that’s a good argument against doing it, and I understand that There Are Rules, but if it’s me, I just … I don’t care. I don’t mind. I’ve had it happen. It never occurred to me to be offended, to be honest. I don’t want to have a great party not happen because the people who would have hosted it needed everybody to chip in five dollars and were afraid to say so.
I understand the “if you don’t have the money to pay for everything, don’t entertain at all” mindset, but I don’t personally subscribe to it.
@Clubs
With my friends… it’s either food or a fee (which has to be decided pre-party and agreed on by EVERYONE). Or sometimes… we bring food and share the costs of beer. I don’t think the owner of the house ought to pay for much more than others – especially if the party was everyone’s idea, I don’t know if that’s the case here, although it doesn’t seem like it. But they don’t get to choose the fee arbirtraly either, and you are totally in your right to refuse to go. You can also ask what the money is for, I guess… it just depends on how big a deal you wanna make of it. If it was me, in case of a close friend, I’d ask what was up with the fee since you guys are bringing everything and really, napkins and plastic cups don’t cost that much.
@Wonder
I’ve used on acquaintances and friends of friends the “don’t make those kinds of comments around me” poletely but with a straight face, whenever something of the genre came up. They sometimes would try again, like with a different take (it usually comes as some form of joke) but I wouldn’t fold, so they’d drop it after a second try. People are aware that their behavior is unacceptable. That’s why they whisper/tell jokes/talk only to people who they think agree with them. Let them know you are not one of those people. Actually, if more people did, they’d be more ashamed of such behavior and less prone to keep talking about it with everyone. I’d leave the abortion issue out of it, that’s a whole other deal (as in it shouldn’t be thrown in the mix with using the n-word or saying the other horrible things they say).
Hee. I also love the Santa Claus quote. Although I don’t see having much use for it as the shit I usually hear doesn’t usually start with “I don’t believe in that lifestyle” or something of the sort… kinda wishing it did now heh.
I really hope Clubs comes back to let us know what happened!
Yeah, it’s not the $15 itself. It’s that guests are already supplying EVERYTHING else except the venue. I always bring wine to a party, which is an outlay right there even if it’s not cash; the outlay itself, whatever. It’s a party. But this is like having a cash bar at a house party and then instituting a two-drink minimum — it’s just not how you treat people you’re supposed to be close with, running a gathering like a business this way.
@Clubs: Another idea: don’t respond to the evite. Show up with whatever you’re bringing for food. Act in the murder mystery. Don’t pony up the $15, or even mention it at all. If B has the gall to bring it up in front of everyone (or at all), just innocently look at her and say “Oh honey, that’s so tacky, I assumed you were joking!” and drop the topic. You might not get invited back, but hell, it sounds like you’d be coming out ahead.
Clubs here….
I called her on it. I’ve been offered the opportunity to not bring a drink, and I can borrow one of T’s suit jackets so I don’t have to pay for a costume…but no mention of waiving the cover *rolls eyes*
Direct quote from B’s email: “We’ll help you get through it inexpensively. Believe me, I know about having to save money…”
Imma log off before I write a really nasty email that I’ll regret….
Thanks for the advice and the reinforcement….
@ Linda and L – Yeah, I guess you don’t have to be offended by the admission price if you don’t want to be, but Clubs’ scenario sounds more like B is trying to make a profit off of the party than just cover her costs. I mean, likes Sars just said, if she’s running a club in her house and needs to charge a cover fee, then don’t call it a party. It would be like having a wedding and then after your family accepts the invitation telling them that the per-head charge will be X dollars. (and to be clear, that’s my example of something that it is NOT ok to do!) If B can’t afford to entertain in this manner, or to this extent, or with this guest list because she is tight on cash, then she just should limit the scope or guest list, not try to cash in. It’s tacky.
And yes my friends and I do throw collaborative gatherings: you do the main course, I’ll bring the sides, he’ll bring the wine, she’ll bring the dessert, everybody’s happy. But no cover charge – eww.
I’m also not against the idea of kicking in a small amount for a friend’s party. Club’s letter immediately reminded me of a friend of mine who, when we graduated high school, decided to have a major blowout at her house. She rented a karaoke machine (big deal in those days) and a moonwalk (one of those bouncy things?) and then very tentatively asked everyone for a cover charge of ONE DOLLAR. I came to the party that night a bit late, and it was in full swing. I fished a dollar out of my pocket and gave it to her, and she hugged me. “You’re the first person who’s actually paid me,” she said.
Re: Wonder. I’m just going to reaffirm what everybody else said. Like many people my age, I have the classic racist grandmother. When I reached an age where I felt OK talking back to an elder relative, I started saying to her, “I wish you wouldn’t use that word, Grandma,” and then, “You know how I feel about that word, Grandma.” Over time, she understood that it offended me to hear, and she out of respect, she chose to (mostly) quit making comments of that nature when I was around, although I don’t doubt she continues to make them when I am not there.
I never made out like I was judging her, and certainly it sounds like your co-workers have many good points that you can force yourself to remember when you get the news from Bigot Town. They won’t learn any grand lessons about tolerance, but I like to think that as they come to understand that there are boundaries, that not all people think exactly as they do, that they need to be AWARE of the opinions they voice in certain situations, their worlds are broadened just a little bit.
Clubs here again….
I don’t object, at all, to contributing towards the cost of a party. I’ve been on both sides, and I’ll gladly pony up for a beer run, pizza, groceries to help cook dinner. My friends and I do this all the time. But it’s always in leiu of actually bringing the items — if I’m bringing a dish or an ingredient, I don’t think I should also get charged just for walking in.
B’s now saying she will cook dinner but “Asian ingredients are soooooo expensive, and I want an Asian theme dinner.” Funnily, I find that cooking Asian food is among the cheapest things I do — but I’m failing at finding a way to call her on that one.
Clubs, wowsers, B is a piece of work! She knows how it feels to try to save money? Too bad she’s making it difficult for her friends!
Her “choices” are even more insulting than the original Evite. She clearly wants to make money off her so called pals. Deep breath, happy place, write a polite email saying you regretfully have to back out, as it’s just not in your budget.
Then let it lie. When she shoots you another, indignant email about how much work it will be to replace you, let it lie. When she complains to others about how you left her in the lurch, let it lie. When she calls you two days before the party and grudgingly offers to charge you $7.50, let it lie. Just repeat to anyone who asks you directly that you couldn’t afford a cover charge and gave her as much notice as possible.
She wants the money. You don’t need to hand it over, no matter how artful she’s been in finagling it.
It doesn’t happen often, but I think I disagree with Sars’s advice to Wonder.
If the vast majority of people in the workplace behave and act in a certain way, you are not going to fare well by being the lone voice of sense and reason. At the very best, you’re going to make them all feel incredibly uncomfortable and that will affect their behaviour towards each other and you. At the worst, it will blow up into a huge issue.
They are all in the wrong as far as I’m concerned, both for having those views and for thinking that it’s socially acceptable to express them. But you can be right or you can be happy, and I don’t think you can be both, at least not in that workplace.
In all seriousness, my advice would be to look for another job.
Sorry Sars – I thought of a PS (which you should feel free to include in my original message, of course!):
The thing to remember is that those colleagues will not be ignorant to the fact that the opinions they’re expressing are socially unacceptable (unless they live in a world with no TV or newspapers). It’s what they believe, and they don’t care about the impact this has on others – hence them happily saying the things they say. They’re adults. You’re not going to change them.
Just to be clear: I, too, understand about kicking into the pot so that the person who’s doing the hosting doesn’t have to eat all the expenses – especially if one person in particular winds up doing most of the hosting. But it seems in this instance as if B. just doesn’t get that the people who are lugging in the supplies shouldn’t have to pay a cover, too.
@Clubs/Susan: thanks so much for getting back to us! I regret to say that it really seems as if your friend just Does Not Get It. You get to “not bring a drink” – as long as you lug along that covered dish and that $15! Because B. is doing you SUCH a big favor: “We’ll help you get through it inexpensively. Believe me, I know about having to save money…”. That is really sticking in my craw right now.
And just because I’m having That Kind Of Day, there’s a certain irony in my having written:
“Good luck to our friends in the city now know as Atlantis.
@TJ: Nobody has a monopoly on stupid, more’s the pity.”
Yes, it should have been “known”. Just one among many, many things this morning which are going not quite right …
That said, and keeping in mind that the point of correct usage is clarity, “reverse” does indicate additional information, namely that the party suffering the bigotry in question is the group usually considered the majority — Caucasians, males, et al.
I feel like the term “reverse racism” adds even more additional information– that the speaker is a jerk.
I find that the people who bang on about “reverse discrimination” are total Brandon Walshes who tend to think the ONLY racism or sexism that exists is directed against white males.
As long as white males have all the money and power, what effect does our “reverse discrimination” have on their lives? We don’t invite them to our dinner parties?
@Clubs
Speaking of people not getting it…yeah, B is obviously clueless, and is not going to Get It. Continue to politely decline the invitation, and don’t debate the money aspect further; you’re wasting your breath. Every objection will be met with another excuse, so don’t offer reasons. Just say, “I won’t be able to attend, but have a wonderful party,” ad nauseum. Don’t engage in debate, just decline politely.
(I will say, though, that Asian food can get expensive depending on whether you get The Good Stuff and how many ingredients you throw in).
This comment: “…thinks it’s OK for her friends to pay good cash money for the privilege of bringing their food to her house” sums it all up beautifully. The guests are providing the food, and the drinks, and the entertainment; it sounds like everything’s covered already. Do you suppose she has an explanation for what the money is FOR?
@Wonder: You stress several times in your letter the fact that these co-workers are good, decent, compassionate people who really are trying to live their beliefs. Not to be contrary, here, but that tells me that maybe they COULD change. It’s one thing to hear and see a message in pop culture, and quite another to look someone in the eye and try to defend that kind of behavior. I agree with whomever above said that you might want to invoke their Christianity as a reason to behave better. Various verses in the NT state that “in Christ, there is neither slave nor free, Jew nor Gentile”, etc., etc., and I’m probably getting that wording all wrong. Maybe it’s possible to challenge these people to step back and see the contrast between what they say, and what they claim to believe. I’m a profoundly flawed Christian myself, so this isn’t meant to be preachy. I was raised somewhat racist, but was seriously challenged on it by Christian friends as an adult, and that changed my thinking.
Or, you could take the low road. My FIL regularly uses the N-word in front of my kids, and while having it out with him about the wrongness of all that hasn’t worked, appealing to his concern for their safety seems to have helped. (They don’t hear that word at home, so if I ever hear them use it, I’ll know where they picked it up.) It wasn’t until we pointed out that other people will take serious umbrage to hearing that crap come out of our kids’ mouths, that he stepped off a bit. At this point, whatever works is good.
Clubs, it sounds like you don’t like this lady very much, and this might be adding to your anger at her (admittedly crazy tacky) action. But you also want to go to this event and have fun. You don’t say how anyone else has responded to the evite, but I would say that if you have said “I can’t because of the money, but thanks,” you now have to stand by that, even if it means missing some fun. If someone remarks to her on your absence, she may point out loudly that you objected to having to contribute, or she may make some kind of backhanded remark like the one above, but you can know in your heart that your other friends agree with you. Maybe they will even tell her, at that point, that they agree with you, and she’ll search her soul as she’s cleaning up afterwards (or making them clean up). Think loving thoughts towards her–maybe you’ll be friends when she comes around.
@Jacq…they *should* be uncomfortable. What they’re saying is wrong, intolerant, and hateful. They may be the sweetest people in the world in other aspects…they’re still wrong in this one.
It’s Jesus that told us, “…the greatest commandment is this, Love your God with all your heart. And the second greatest is this–love your neighbor as yourself”. Never does he say, except gays, or blacks, or women, or (insert your own label).
My dad was racist. He would also call English “limeys”, handicapped people “cripples”, and other derogatory terms for other minorities. I didn’t know him very well growing up, but after college I started to challenge him (I flat out told him not to call my cousin’s husband a “limey”), and he really backed off. Mostly it was through an exasperated “DAD”, but eventually I stopped hearing it. And maybe, it even sank in a little.
It’s hard to live by your convictions, believe me. But it’s worse to stand by and say nothing, and feel uncomfortable and ashamed.
@Jacq: I disagree with you on this one. In my experience, people tend to say things like that when they think they’re in a safe space of sorts–when they assume everyone around them agrees with them. It’s rarely a true assumption, but people make it.
Hopefully, if they are adults and professionals, Wonder’s comments will make them realize that they’re wrong, and that work is not a place to say things like that. If they’re neither adult nor professional, they won’t stop, and then it really does become an unhealthy environment, where leaving the company becomes more of an option. But assuming that nothing will change, without trying to change it, isn’t necessarily the best choice.
@ Kathryn: “The guests are providing the food, and the drinks, and the entertainment; it sounds like everything’s covered already. Do you suppose she has an explanation for what the money is FOR?”
This is the part that mystifies me. What the heck is left? Is B pro-rating her mortgage, or what?
I would straight out ask B what the 15 dollars if for- Look at the evite list, add up the amount of people, total what she would make and lay it out for her.
” Hey B, I noticed that the cover charge will equal $200 dollars ( or whatever). Since we are all bringing the food and drink, can I ask what that money is for? Is there something you are renting for the evening? Perhaps somebody already has that $200 thing you are renting with our money, and we can just borrow it for free? etc.”
I think she owes you an explanation for what cost that charge is meant to defray. Because it does look like she is trying to make a profit, and giving you all sorts of used car salesman lingo ( I’m going to help you get this car….) so that she can keep that profit coming in.
Speaking of calling people on their statements, @Natalie: Do you hear yourself? “As long as white males have all the money and power?” Just off the top of my head, Oprah is a very rich, very powerful black woman. Reverse discrimination, prejudice, and stereotyping most definitely exists, as your comment just demonstrated.
Thank you all for the advice about my co-workers. I’ve decided that if one of them makes a remark again, I’ll quietly take them aside and tell them that I found their remark offensive and just leave it at that. I’m not out to change the world, but I don’t want them using that kind of language around me.
The only people who seniority over me are the four owners, but I really don’t think if I was to call one of them out on a offensive statement, they would retaliate in any way (like I wrote, this is a small family owned business). They’d probably be shocked that I actually spoke to them.
@ Very pro-choice: My issue wasn’t that my co-worker went to an ant-choice march, it was the assumption, made by her and all my co-workers, that I was also anti-choice (or as they would say, anti-abortion).
“but I’m failing at finding a way to call her on that one”
Tell her to cater from a buck-a-scoop place. Criminey! 15 people x $15 each = $225…is she adding gold & diamonds to that Asian food? I agree with everyone who said to ask her flat-out “What is this $15 buying?”
@ Wonder/Jacq: I admire Wonder wanting to stand up for her convictions, and I wish her the best of luck. However, she should be prepared for things not to change. My co-workers make a ton of racist/homophobic jokes and my comments regarding this didn’t change anything. I tried to keep things kind of light and funny at first and said things like, “Wow, everyone *is* a little bit racist!” and “Hey, that’s kind of offensive!” only to be told, essentially, “Oh, we’re not really racist/homophobic, we’re just having a little fun, lighten up!” It’s incredibly frustrating. Needless to say, I am looking for another job at the moment.
As long as white males have all the money and power, what effect does our “reverse discrimination” have on their lives? We don’t invite them to our dinner parties?
Maybe they’re firefighters and they won’t be promoted? Or allowed into the law school of their choice?
Yeah, they should just suck it up.
@ ferretrick: Name one more black woman with Oprah’s money and power. We’ll wait.