The Vine: September 23, 2009
Dear Miss Bunting,
Thank you for making me laugh until my sides hurt. It’s funny because it’s true.
I would greatly appreciate it if you would clarify another word faux pas. My head spins off of my shoulders when I hear the expression “reverse discrimination” or “reverse racism.” I am by no means an English scholar but common sense tells me that is it either discrimination or it is not. It is either racism or it is not.
Thank you again. I have saved your site to my favorites. I’m sure I will be referring to it often.
TJ
Dear TJ,
Thanks for the compliments!
My sense of that term is that, on the strict usage point, you’re right: “discrimination” and “racism” mean what they mean, and the addition of “reverse” is redundant.”
That said, and keeping in mind that the point of correct usage is clarity, “reverse” does indicate additional information, namely that the party suffering the bigotry in question is the group usually considered the majority — Caucasians, males, et al.
Garner doesn’t have a note on the usage, but Kenneth G. Wilson in The Columbia Guide to Standard American English notes that the term “is a somewhat illogical but idiomatic Standard English locution, meaning ‘discrimination against members of a majority, which is claimed to give unfair advantage to members of a minority'” (372).
…What he said, in other words.I don’t have a problem with the term, because I think it implies something that simply “discrimination” doesn’t — although clauses like “reverse discrimination against white people” are redundant and should be avoided.
Sars,
After living in Atlanta for several years, last October I decided to move to a much smaller town in a neighboring state.I now work in a small, family-owned company of about 20 and ever since I came to work here, everyone has been nothing but welcoming and friendly to me.
They are all Sunday-churchgoing, Wednesday-Bible-School-going Christians who seem to be trying to live good lives and raise their children to be compassionate, caring and intelligent people.I genuinely like my co-workers, but sometimes I cringe at the things some of them say.
It started last winter with the anniversary of Roe v. Wade.A co-worker took her son with their church group to D.C. to protest.When she came back, many of my co-workers commended her for doing “the Lord’s work.”I’m a Democrat, feminist, agnostic, and pro-choice, but said nothing because I don’t discuss anything remotely political at work.She showed me pictures of their march and I made innocuous comments like, “Oh, is that Washington Monument in the background?” but otherwise kept my mouth shut.
A few months later a different co-worker was changing her voicemail message.I happened to be passing by her desk as she was finishing listening to the playback.She told me that she hates hearing the sound of her voice and asked me if she sounded “like a fag.”I was so startled that I did one of those nervous laughs.Then I told her no and kept walking.
Fast forward a few more months, and we’re back to Co-Worker #1.She lives out in the country and was telling me that their backyard is filled with things her family doesn’t use anymore.Then she whispered, “It looks like a n*****’s back yard.”This is a woman I admire in so many ways, and to hear her say something like this was deeply unsettling.I said nothing and we finished the conversation.
And now we come to this past Monday.A client, who was Hispanic, had just left, and a co-worker said he didn’t know how a Mexican came to have such nice cars.His theory was that the man was obviously a drug dealer.I had to refrain from bashing my head against my keyboard.Once again, I kept silent.
Like I wrote above, they can be very compassionate and wonderful people (and I judge this not only by their words but also by their actions), but some of the things that come out of their mouths are just so offensive to me.
Do I tell them that I find what they say is offensive?I’m a very non-confrontational person, but maybe I should say something.Do I say nothing and just roll my eyes in private?Sars, I don’t know what to do.
Wondering when someone will forget that I’m half-Asian and make a remark about gooks
Dear Wonder,
Say something.It doesn’t sound like you work in the kind of company that has policies about that sort of speech, and while it is in fact creating a hostile work environment — on top of being, you know, ignorant and wrong — I doubt you’d get far phrasing it as such.
But it just is not acceptable, and you should make that clear.And I empathize with you; put in the same position myself in the past, I’ve felt shocked and disappointed, and also resentful, on a petty level — like, on top of the fact that they think this toxic nonsense, they’re also dumb enough to say it out loud?”Hateful and ignorant” isn’t enough — you’ve got to add “rude” to the list?
Not to reduce racism to a social discomfort, obviously, but in the end, playing it as one is probably your best bet in terms of stopping the comments.”Remarks like that make me very uncomfortable.””That term makes me very uncomfortable.”And then just let it sit there, or excuse yourself and go elsewhere before you can apologize for making them uncomfortable, or get into a debate about your sense of humor.
You have to work with these people; they have other good qualities; nothing occurs in a vacuum, and I think we all feel you on how hard it is to call people on inappropriate remarks like that.I don’t know which of these co-workers is higher ranked than you in the company, or what other recourse you have; I do know that it’s not going to turn into some Very Special Workisode where everyone learns a very important lesson about whatever.”From fools they were made and to fools they shall return,” as my mother occasionally says.But it isn’t right, it does make you uncomfortable, you have been at pains to keep it zipped about your political beliefs, and I sense that you are more uneasy about letting it go, ethically, than you are about confronting the issue.
It sucks that you have to do it at all, I know, but: you do.You can’t make them Get It, but you may be able to make them shut it, which is something.Good luck to you.
Dear Sars,
I have a sticky etiquette question, and time is coming for me to make a decision about it, and I’m stuck. Surely you and The Vine readers can give me some insight, right?
Backstory: I have a large, close group of friends. The group is composed of people with whom I went to Crazy Artsy Public University in Texas, plus the wives/husbands/partners of those people. We’ve known each other for between 10 and 15 years, and we’ve been through a lot.
These are the people who’ve always had my back and who really function as my family. As such, we put up with things from each other that we might not from others, and we try to give each other slack when we mess up. It’s worth preserving the friendships to be pretty forgiving of all but the most major fuck-ups.
One of my oldest friends in the group is T. About 8 years ago, T married B. I have since gotten to be friends with B in her own right, and for the most part I enjoy her. She has a tendency not to really listen to what you say, which is irritating, but once you know it, you kind of work around it and learn to live with repeating yourself. I don’t always like how she will talk over the top of T and try to either demand attention or change the subject when T is talking to one his friends, but that’s another Vine letter and not really germane to the dilemma in which I find myself.
ANYWAY. T is a public-school teacher, and B has worked at a various clerical jobs over the time I’ve known her. They own a rather large house in a nice subdivision, and drive cars that are less than two years old. I bring this up because B is constantly on about how broke they are, about how “tired [she is] of only having $300 a month left after bills.” Now, I recently went through the breakup of a marriage which left me broke and with wrecked credit, about which the group knows the basic facts. So I would be dancing for joy if I had $300 left at the end of the month, but I try not to play “My financial problems are worse than yours” with anyone because it’s petty.
The thing is, B’s obsession with how “broke” they are has started to cause some serious breaches of etiquette — she will offer to host a party, and then ask everyone to bring everything — not talking basic potluck here, but as in B and T provide nothing but the space. Last time I was going to their house, she called and needed paper plates, napkins, cups, beer, in addition to the batch of potato salad I was already bringing.
I’m not too shy to say something’s not in my budget when it’s not, but that does not seem to deter her. In conversations about money, I’ve offered her my strategies, but she is unwilling to give up the extensive cable package, dinners and lunches out 5-6 times a week, or other things that would probably help them financially.
The issue I need advice on is this. (See, I told you I had a point.) T and B host an annual Halloween party, which is always fun. It’s typically appetizer potluck style, which works well — I bring some beer and something to share, as does everyone else. This year, B has decided it would be fun to host a murder mystery dinner, Clue-style. She’s worked out an awesome story, and cast the parts well. It looks to be fun.
I got the Evite the other day and I see that not only are we each required to bring a beverage and a potluck dish, but there is a $15 per person cover charge for the party. There are approximately 15 people coming to this party. If she were providing the entire meal, I would balk less, but since we are also contributing the food and drinks, I think this is unreasonable.
Then there is part of me who wonders if T and B are having financial issues that are more serious than I realize, that they won’t talk about — T gets angry when B talks about money with the group — and this is her way, however hamfisted, of trying to fix it. I want to help them as much as I can if I they are hurting, but $15 plus whatever else I bring is not chump change to me at this point as I’m rebuilding my financial life. However, I am also hesitant to back out, since I agreed to be in the cast. Had I known about the cover charge up front, I would have declined, but she waited until the Evite, when everyone was already committed to the cast, to spring the cover charge on us.
What do I do? I feel like the partygoers count on me as part of the cast. If my friends are hurting for money so bad they are shaking us down like this, I want to find a way to help. But the fact is, I can’t afford this, and I’m pissed as hell at the way she did this. I don’t want to lose my friends, but I’m at the cracking point.
Even the clubs go no-cover on Halloween, for fuck’s sake
Dear Clubs,
Try to leave all the other ancillary issues aside — the previous cheapskatery, the whining about money coupled with unchecked discretionary spending — and focus on the Halloween party and only the Halloween party.The problem as I understand it is that, in addition to asking you to provide a beverage and a potluck dish, and asking you to perform at the party, B is also charging you, a cast member, $15 to even attend — and did this on the Evite so that everyone would feel too chastened to call her on it.
Yeah, the thing is?No.B should have waived something for the cast in the first place, given that it’s a time commitment and a favor you guys are doing her — if you take part in the show, you can skip making a dish or bringing booze, something that acknowledges your extra effort.She certainly shouldn’t charge cast members admission, and she really shouldn’t charge anyone else, either, because it’s not covering any stated cost: the talent is free, the guests pack in their own food and drink, and maybe it’s for costumes or clean-up or whatever, but when you host a party, you assume these costs.Don’t want to buy soda, or pay a maid service?Don’t have a party.Simple as that.
Even if this is a misguided attempt to ensure that no uninvited guests are tempted to crash, Evite offers about a dozen zero-cost ways for a host to do that — and again, this is B’s problem, not yours or any other guest’s.
Decline the invitation, and tell her why.”I’m sorry — between the food prep, the cast time commitment, and the booze, I’ve already given what I can afford.The extra $15, about which I was not told in advance, is simply too much.Have a great time.”You can do this on the Evite so that everyone else can see it, which might encourage other guests who are similarly nonplussed by the social tone-deafness to follow your lead, or you can do the classy thing and send her an email.
She’s doing this at least in part because she thinks nobody’s going to call her on it; based on the backstory, she’s…probably right.You and the rest of the circle want the skinflinting to stop, you’ll have to start declining invitations, showing up sans booze to parties, and otherwise enforcing the notion that “host” does not mean “one-night landlord.”
Tags: etiquette grammar workplace
Wonder: I think saying something immediately but non-confrontational will go well, given how you describe their manner–the one woman who whispered before dropping the n word. Clearly they know that it won’t be acceptable to everyone, seems like they might be feeling you out to see where you stand. And say something soon, before they get too comfortable and stop worrying.
@Club/Susan: Whoa. She sounds special. And…let me get this straight. She’s letting you borrow a suit jacket from T to help this be inexpensive. So, was she expecting you to BUY a jacket for the purposes of this party? Will Stephen Sondheim be in attendance? And if you want to cook Asian food, and Asian food is expensive…then that’s how it is. No one is forcing B to cook food that’s expensive.
I have a friend like this–always wanting to split the tab even if she had 12 drinks and the rest of us had 2, and then not understanding why we might think that’s unfair. I’ve been putting my foot down and my friend gets pouty, but that’s it. B won’t change, but she also probably won’t drop you as a friend, and you’ll get to keep your money.
@Sars: I see a race debate about to descend on your blog…
Clubs, checking in yet again…
After three panicked text messages sent my way at 7 this morning…
Now, B’s onto “We’ll just do the regular potluck, and no one has to ‘contribute’ the $15.” And she has assigned dishes to everyone — herself and T included, SHOCKER.
I’ve got a really bad taste in my mouth about all this now, and am still not sure I will go. But that’s where it all stands. I guess calling someone on their crap occassional induces changes, though I have a feeling we’ll have this whole issues come up again next time she decides she wants to “host.” I really wish my place was big enough for me to take over some of that duty.
Thanks again for all the feedback.
@Jennifer: It stays on topic, or it ain’t landing.
@Wonder: I agree partly with Jacq–not the part where she says you shouldn’t speak up, but the part where she warns you that it probably won’t change their minds. In my experience, no matter how politely you contradict these sorts of viewpoints (especially homophobia), the person being corrected just takes that as an opportunity to feel self-righteous and persecuted, and to rail against so-called “political correctness” taking away their free speech rights. It has been my anecdotal observation that the term “political correctness” is now used almost exclusively by bigots as a way to try to get away with saying rude things.
Regarding racism in the workplace etc.
i’ve worked in the service industry for 13 years or so (lord help me!) in various types of jobs–bartending, waitressing, cooking, retail–and have run across a lot this kind of nonsense from both coworkers and customers. my favorite thing to do is play dumb.
“i’m sorry, i don’t understand what you mean by that word”
“i don’t get it. explain the joke.”
“i don’t know what you’re talking about.”
all said with the absolute sweetness and charm underlaid with the steeliness that comes from waiting on asshats for years. it works. if they try to explain, continue to stonewall until they become exasperated, bored, or awkward.
it can be really fun!
@Clubs: I hope that at this point, you will let it go. She gave you what you wanted. She’s trying to accommodate you. You brought up your concern; it was addressed. If that isn’t good enough for you and you’ve simply decided she’s a jerk (and maybe she is), then don’t accept her hospitality.
I think it’s obviously rude to expect guests to bring the food AND pay a cover, but I also think it’s in questionable taste to accept an invitation you’re going to do nothing but complain about. The mere fact that you acknowledge that you don’t have the space demonstrates that she IS providing something of value just by hosting your friends, so I hope you will either go with a positive attitude or stay home.
@Susan/Clubs: Even though, she’s dropped the $15, I would stick to your guns and continue to politely decline. Stick with the “can’t make it-sorry! Have fun” line. First, it sounds like at this point, you won’t even enjoy it that much anymore. Second, if you don’t follow through with the consequence, you are right, she will be back to her old tricks by the next party.
@Maren: Condoleeza Rice. Beyonce. Jennifer Hudson. Michelle Obama.
@Linda- I think that Clubs/Susan might just still be smarting from the previous e-mail where B didn’t get what she was doing was rude and thinking that a)she may well have to go through all this uncomfortableness again and b)still annoyed by the not getting it. I don’t think that venting to a bunch of folks that agree with her on the rudeness will translate to her going to the party without a positive attitude.
@Clubs/Susan- I get what a pain it can be to not be able to host- I’ve been in this position a lot of times. Options for ‘hosting’ without hosting- you could have a game night at a coffee shop that has enough/the kind of seating for folks to play games, or you could just set up get together for dinner out at a comfortable place where you can sit and chat. This is what I do with my friends one Friday a month at a cheap Mexican place. Mainly we do it because the one friend that can’t host because her toddler goes to bed early is allergic to cats which the rest of us all have. But it’s also nice because no one has to bring anything, we can all order what we can afford (I always break up the check so that no one has to pay for other people’s food and drinks), and you can leave when you want without worrying about offending folks with leaving too early. Maybe some other folks will have ideas for hosting without it being at your house.
@Clubs/Susan:
I’m still boggling. Has she EVER said what the $15 was originally FOR?
Like Linda, perhaps, I’m not categorically against giving a token amount of money to someone who was hosting a party, even in addition to guests bringing food or drink. But the thing is, in my circle of friends anyway, it would never happen without the intermediate steps of [a] clearing it with the attendees beforehand, and [b] explaining what it’s for.
It would be fine and normal if the group said, “You know what this party needs? A karaoke machine! How much does that cost? How much would we all have to put in to rent one?” But the important thing there is — you find out how much, and then the group gets to decide if it’s worth it. People get to say “no, the party doesn’t need that extra frill”. There’s transparency, in other words.
I just can’t fathom what B thought needed to be covered by such a charge, and why it wasn’t transparent to all of you. But then, Clubs, I also can’t fathom why you’re the only person who raised this issue. Again, in my group of friends? Every single person would have asked immediately, “What’s THAT for?”
Amanda Jeanne – I too have found this tactic really helpful. There are times when I legitimately don’t get things, too. And people are almost immediately embarassed at having to explain themselves. At work someone referred to white people from the south as something more obscure than redneck and implied something about the group being dumb. It’s the old, southerners-are-dumb-because-of-the-way-they-speak-and- their-racism reference. I figured out the meaning but acted like I didn’t. Once he had to explain it out loud, he felt bad. Not everyone would, but other people hear the interaction and think about it, too.
And Clubs here again…
Apparently the $15 was for some Asian food that was going to be her contribution to dinner. To be fair, the girl makes a mean eggroll, and eggrolls for 15 are not a small undertaking. I did mention that I thought that $200 for some eggrolls seemed a bit steep and offered to turn her onto the Asian discount market in my neighborhood. I get that “exotic” ingredients can be expensive, but we live in an area that is heavily populated with immigrants from all over Asia, and you can get stuff seriously cheap. (She’s the child of immigrants herself, she must know this.)
I really do think that it was her way of trying to drum up some cash for other expenses and thinking no one else would notice.
The thing is, I’d have been happy to bring some of the ingredients for the eggrolls, etc., instead of a random potluck dish, if she had told me that was what she needed.
At any rate, as @Linda says above, the issue was addressed, I made my point, and I’m gonna let it go. If it comes up again at a future gathering, then we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.
@Holly, I’m a little surprised too. There was some whispering among a couple of the others when the cover charge was announced. But there are a couple others in the group with similiarly grabby behavior who either think it’s normal to shake your friends down for cash, or who think that others doing it justifies their own birthday party invites with FOUR gift registries attached.
It may sound weird to say that I care about these people, but the thing is — when they are not being materialistic, they are really wonderful and supportive, and that is most of the time. And in any group of 20 or more friends, you are going to have one or two who Don’t Get It on a given issue. (I am sure there are plenty of things I Don’t Get, as the lone queer/divorced/childfree in the core group.)
@wonder – As someone from South Carolina I have up-close and personal experience with racisim/bigotry. I will say that I am a Christian but have never said one cross word to the many gay friends I have had over the years. I have always told them that I was taught that lifestyle was wrong, but that it was their decision. They never had a problem with me. Going back to racism, I think in the South things have moved must more slowly since desegregation than in other parts of the country. I have the dishonor of being the great-granddaughter of a klan member. My mom grew up being taken to cross burnings (and being terrified the entire time). My parents wised up to not using the n word aroung my bother and I when, in second grade and not knowing any better, I told one of my friends that she couldn’t come to my birthday part because she was the n word. After that my parents watched what they said around me. I still roll my eyes when they say racist things, but they really have a hard time going against they way they were raised. They have each had very good friends that were black, but their whole childhood was steeped in racism.
My advice would to politely say that whatver comment was offensive to you and they should feel properly enough not to have to ask why. As mentioned many other times, don’t start the abortion debate at work because it will probably get heated and that is not where that discussion belongs.
@Wonder,
I’ve run into that at my workplace as well. Within the last six months, my state has legalized gay marriage, and around the time it became official, one of my coworkers went on a rant about how “We might as well let people marry goats, if we’re going to let fucking gays marry! Why can’t we let people marry goats now, I ask you?”
I was typing at my desk during this tirade, and I very calmly stated “Because goats can’t say ‘I do.’ Now, can we please not talk about this? Not everyone agrees with you.”
The response did two things; it shut my co-worker up, and made it very clear to him that I wasn’t going to sit there and let him rant in the office. He doesn’t know my husband is bi, and that the topic he was ranting about is very close to me, but he _does_ know that I will not tolerate people badmouthing homosexuals around me, and now acts accordingly.
One of my other coworkers actually thanked me for shutting him up later, so who knows? You may not be the only one who’s offended. But they won’t know you are if you don’t speak up.
@Clubs,
At this point, the whole rigmarole it took to get B to knock it off with the collection plate is what’s making you pissed off. I’m sort of experiencing the same thing with a possible job (Six weeks of being a interviewee yo-yo. Not fun, and makes me not want the job period if this is how they treat their potential employees), and I really don’t blame you for not wanting to go.
If you’ve really lost the desire to go thanks to B’s petty nature, then don’t go. If you feel like going would allow B to pull this again in the future, don’t go. If you’re fine with the arrangement now and really want to see your friends, then go right ahead and have a great time.
None of the possibilities are wrong, and if someone asks you why you bailed, simply tell them that you’re not in the best place financially, and the money commitments for the party were too much for you to deal with. It might make your friends consider slightly cheaper alternatives in the future, but either way, you save face by not calling B a money-grubbing golddigger, and your friends can realize that extravagant parties may exclude some of their buddies thanks to the economy.
@Rene’ Chavis–“I will say that I am a Christian but have never said one cross word to the many gay friends I have had over the years. I have always told them that I was taught that lifestyle was wrong, but that it was their decision.”
I’m sorry–I don’t understand this. Could you explain it to me?
A word to the wise, too, on using biblical reference to “defuse” racism and bigotry: for many, many people of such convictions, there is a certain pride in “educating” themselves to argue against any such references, and this will actually only open a really wide floodgate of invective and supposedly-scholarly citation.
“Please don’t” is the phrase. Elaborate on that in no way whatsoever.
Wonder, all the very best to you. I’m one of many many pro-choice Christians I know, and you and people like you are in my prayers all the time.
Making the world unsafe for intolerance quietly, one day at a time. *Sigh*
I have always told them that I was taught that lifestyle was wrong, but that it was their decision.
I understand that people learn some messed-up crap from their parents, but once you are old enough to vote, and to have “many gay friends” (who, I suspect, are not real big fans of being patronized to on the subject of their wrong lifestyle), then you are old enough to think for yourself, own your beliefs, and not lay it at the feet of “I was taught that.” Or of Christianity. Jesus is weeping tears of bloody fire right now, knowing people put that shit on Him.
I’m sure you mean well, but…come on.
@Rene’ “my bother and I” – I have two older bothers. (most awesome typo I’ve seen in ages, thanks for the giggle!)
I have always told them that I was taught that lifestyle was wrong, but that it was their decision.
I understand that people learn some messed-up crap from their parents, but once you are old enough to vote, and to have “many gay friends” (who, I suspect, are not real big fans of being patronized to on the subject of their wrong lifestyle), then you are old enough to think for yourself, own your beliefs, and not lay it at the feet of “I was taught that.” Or of Christianity. Jesus is weeping tears of bloody fire right now, knowing people put that shit on Him.
I’m sure you mean well, but…come on.
This.
Speaking of people overcoming “messed-up crap from their parents,” my 72-year-old dad is a product of three institutions that do not condone the “homosexual lifestyle”: the military, the Catholic Church, and the Boy Scouts.
In the 1980s, when the fact of HIV/AIDS and its extent first became known, he actually told me that the reason that HIV/AIDS was so prevalent among gay men was that gay men’s sexual practices were unnatural. I told him I didn’t agree and made sure to reiterate this point whenever the topic came up again. However, Dad was never anything but friendly and welcoming to my gay and lesbian friends, so he and my mom got to know them over the years and enjoy their company.
I don’t know when I first realized that Dad’s attitudes were changing. But I can tell you this:
He has a gay running buddy (who performed my sister’s wedding ceremony).
He rebuts anti-gay jokes when he hears his friends tell them.
He was thrilled to hear that one of my oldest friends, who lives in Massachusetts, had legally married his partner — and that my friend’s mom, who had terminal ovarian cancer, lived long enough to attend the ceremony.
He opposes the effort to repeal a law passed this spring that legalizes gay marriage in Maine (my home state).
Live and learn.
“Jesus is weeping tears of bloody fire right now, knowing people put that shit on Him.”
SING IT, SISTER!! AMEN and AMEN!!!!!
I am a believer, 100%, but DAMN it’s hard to battle the anti-gay, anti-choice, anti-difference image we Christians are saddled with from comments like @Rene’ Chavis’.
If only it were true that they would know we are Christians by our LOVE.
@ferretrick:
I’m with Maren. No one said that prejudice can’t exist among marginalized people, just that it fails to rise to the level of societal oppression and is therefore just a way to derail a conversation about racism or sexism because there are lots of white men who can’t stand to have their own point of view out of focus for even one conversation.
And Lisa: I’m pretty sure there are PLENTY of male firefighters and lawyers. I’ll go out on a limb and say most.
Yeah, on the subject of “… I was always taught it was wrong” — throwing my 78 year old Catholic mother into the mix. She sure was always taught that homosexuality was wrong. (And she had some homophobic reactions when I was in college.) But at some point in the last 10 years (I’m really not sure when), she started vigorously questioning some of what the church taught her. Now she calls me up to rant to me about “why can’t gay people marry? what’s the problem?” (She calls me to rant because she’s surrounded by a lot of people she feels she can’t talk to, where she lives.)
At some point, “what I was taught” has to become either “…and I agree with it”, or “… and I’ve rejected it”. There are tons of people who overcome what they were taught, and make decisions for themselves about what they feel is right or wrong.
@Wonder: In my experience, you don’t have to say “Excuse me, please don’t” or “That makes me uncomfortable” or anything like that. All you have to do is what comes naturally, which is to let your head snap up and say “What?!” Then just gape until they stutter and back off. If they get all defensive, you can pull out the “. . . wow, okay!” and then get back to your work.
That kind of bigoted asshaberdashery is the social equivalent of pooping in the corner of the room. I don’t think there’s any reason to respond to it with anything other than startled bewilderment. If nothing else, it will _very_ clearly communicate that you think such behavior is unacceptable, and it’ll stop around you.
Wonder — I lived in Houston for six years, and worked with some people who sound very similar to your co-workers. If they are as kind and compassionate as you say, I think that they will be absolutely mortified at the though that they have offended you. I have no expectation that they’ll change their beliefs or their choice of words when you’re not there, but I suspect they will apologize profusely and work very hard to avoid causing you offense in the future.
At some point, “what I was taught” has to become either “…and I agree with it”, or “… and I’ve rejected it”.
Finely put, @Holly.
[Insert joke here about how I was taught to make my bed every morning, but this teaching was rejected…by felines. GODLESS FELINES, AND THEIR “LIFESTYLE”!]
Tsk. I think those godless felines of yours could well become dogs if they just tried a little harder.
“Bigoted asshaberdashery,” hee.
@Kathryn T: “asshaberdashery” = awesome.
@Bitts, that’s the best earworm I’ve been stuck with for months. Thanks.
@Susan/Clubs — I think getting B to drop her silly cover charge is actually a good victory! At the very least, she now knows that people *will* notice if she tries to pass off a “pay my hairdresser/lunch bills/whatever” fundraiser as a potluck.
As a side note … 4 registries in a birthday party invitation? Wow. That’s a new one on me!
@Sars:
I have always told them that I was taught that lifestyle was wrong, but that it was their decision.
I understand that people learn some messed-up crap from their parents, but once you are old enough to vote, and to have “many gay friends” (who, I suspect, are not real big fans of being patronized to on the subject of their wrong lifestyle), then you are old enough to think for yourself, own your beliefs, and not lay it at the feet of “I was taught that.” Or of Christianity. Jesus is weeping tears of bloody fire right now, knowing people put that shit on Him.
I’m sure you mean well, but…come on.
Oh God yes. Although I might add that I do see a context in which saying “I was taught X is wrong” isn’t a deal-breaker; it’s as good a starting place as any for a serious discussion of “why do we feel the way we do about X.” However, the workplace just isn’t the appropriate venue for such a discussion.
And in my entirely unscientific anecdotal experience as a gay man, it seems that the only time I hear “my religion tells me that your lifestyle is wrong, but do what you want” is as an end to a conversation, not as the beginning of one…. not to mention that, funnily enough, I never bother to ask what other people think about it in the first place.
Oh, and @Rene, from way back:
I will say that I am a Christian but have never said one cross word to the many gay friends I have had over the years. I have always told them that I was taught that lifestyle was wrong, but that it was their decision. They never had a problem with me.
They may not have told you this? But I would wager that some of them did, in fact, have a problem with your saying this, but were too polite to bring it up. It sort of puts me in mind of my favorite zinger from Angels in America:
Harper: Oh. In my church we don’t believe in homosexuals.
Prior: In my church we don’t believe in Mormons.
Kathryn T–
thank you for asshaberdashery.
and thank you for “…social equivalent of pooping in the corner of the room.”
i love a good turn of phrase.
Let’s not all jump down @Rene’ Chavis’s throat here. All s/he’s trying to say is that not all Southern Christians walk around making assholes of themselves, no matter their stance (such as it is) on homosexuality.
(Also, Sars, to me it didn’t seem like Rene’ Chavis was invoking Jesus or laying anything on Him – just that s/he’d been taught, not that the church had taught that or that Jesus said that. People are flawed, and people do the teaching. You might have read a bit more into that post than was meant. In any event, saying that Jesus is crying fiery tears is actually a bit offensive to me as a Christian, because who are we to predict Jesus’s reactions?)
Why reverse racism is a load of crap:
“I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was “meant” to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools, and blank checks.”
From White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh.
My two (male) cats are lying on the bed giving each other kisses AT THIS VERY MOMENT, Sars! Won’t sombody think of the CHILDREN??!
Seriously, I was taught a lot of stuff growing up-much of it good, some of it bad. Nobody is raised in a Skinner box, and if you don’t do thinking and growing on your own as an adult, you’ve got no one to blame but yourself. Went to college or no, move to New York or stayed in Tinytown, Alabama, home schooled or runaway, easy street or hard knocks life. Your mind is your own, and choosing the thoughts you want to keep yourself company is one of the hardest and most rewarding jobs there is.
@LTG Heh, I wouldn’t think they’d go as far as apologizing profusely… I mean… they won’t flat out admit their racism (as most racist people won’t). People… usually just stop talking. And make a mental note that you are not one of the people that agrees with them, so they won’t say it to you again. That is, nice people will do that. Jerks will act like jerks as always… but it’s like I said before, they know that what they’re saying is seen as wrong by a lot of people, so it won’t be like a huge schock to them that someone takes offense. Let’s just hope that’s good enough to stop them from doing it…
@Holly… lovely quote. I’m totally gonna borrow it eventually.
I’m sorry to have offended anyone with the imagined fiery tears of our Lord and Savior.
…Wait: no, I’m not. If I can’t believe Jesus gets frustrated by how badly we treat each other sometimes, I can’t believe in Him at all. And tears of fire are rad, come on.
@Wonder
I think there are two ways of approaching this – one way covers many of the suggestions you have had so far, which basically convey the message “You are doing something wrong”. Now OF COURSE these people are doing something wrong, but pointing it out may make your life miserable. If you are willing to do that for The Cause that’s great, but I get the feeling you don’t necessarily want to.
On the other hand, you can convey the message “I don’t want to hear this”. If you do this right, you may get a win-win situation – they shut up, but not get offended. Of course, they are still bigots, but you can hardly change that, whatever you say.
So I suggest next time you jokingly putting your hands over your ears and saying in mock horror “Argh my poor liberal big-city sensibilities! Have mercy!” or something self-deprecating like that.
I knew that fiery tears comment was going to piss someone off, but You Go, Sars, for saying it. Nice elaboration, too, at 11:38. And yeah, they are rad.
I wouldn’t post the “about which I wasn’t told in advance” thing on the Evite rsvp, personally. I’d be concerned about coming across to the hosts or to others as snarky or passive-aggressive. The hosts are asses, with or without hats, but I think the private email is the way I’d go in that situation. Then I’d tell everyone else in the group that I sent it, and encourage them to all back me up and boycott. Just kidding! Ha!
My two cats lay together all the time even though they were not united in holy marriage. Well, they can’t have any kids or anything, but come on! Sleeping on the same bed without being married! Outrage!
Anyway, I’ve met people like Rene over the years. Had some as friends, even. I find the “well, this is what I was taught” even more annoying than outright bigotry. Like the friends who told my husband and I (back then just boyfriend and girlfriend) they were relieved that we lived in a two bedroom apartment, because the way they were taught, one shouldn’t have sex before marriage. I was too flabbergasted to say anything (like “why do you care?” or “it’s not like it’s any of your business anyway”, or a faux-clueless “wait, what do you mean?”), and I wondered what they were saying behind our backs beforehand.
At least with outright bigoted people I know where I stand when I come and go, whereas with the other kind, I never know. So from that standpoint, I’ll take someone who owns up to their bigotry outright rather than someone who hides behind “the way I was taught”.
BTW, I was not raised that much differently than Rene. But not only do I not endorse anything I was taught at Sunday school, I won’t condone anyone saying homophobic or plain prejudiced from anyone in my presence, even in a “hate the sin, not the sinner” (even mom doesn’t get a pass, despite being fond of that one tactic). To me the only appropriate responses are “As long as they’re not doing anything illegal and not hurting anyone, it doesn’t make a difference to me.”, or shutting it. It isn’t so hard to do either.
Susan/Clubs: “Now, B’s onto “We’ll just do the regular potluck, and no one has to ‘contribute’ the $15.” And she has assigned dishes to everyone — herself and T included, SHOCKER.”
WAIT. WAIT RIGHT THERE. Do you mean to tell me that this woman has been running this, this SCAM on her friends, and although everyone else has been dragging their potluck dishes to her soirees, only NOW are she and her husband contributing a dish of their own?? That isn’t right.
And as for “Asian food is expensive!” – well, I accept the assurance of others here that it can be. However – and especially for those out there in Entertainmentland, hoping to save a dollar or two – I’d like to introduce you to an old Asian food friend of mine: I like to call it “rice”.
It isn’t HER contribution to dinner if everyone else pays for all of the ingredients. And those must be some ruby-studded eggrolls, at $15 per person; better watch your teeth when you eat them.
For future events, I like autiger23’s suggestion of a place where you can all meet and eat whatever your own personal budget will afford. I think in this instance, one reason it’s hard to let go of B and her demands is because the subtext is that it ISN’T the people attending who make the event special; people can play Murder Mystery and eat pizza from a local place, if it’s the company that’s important and money’s tight. People who are trying to “save money” put together dishes that lean heavily on rice and affordable ingredients – they don’t tell their guests to bring food AND money,* and Oh by the way, costumes not currently in your wardrobe will be expected. Everything B is doing is directly contradicting what she’s saying, and it’s becoming a real sore spot. Plus, there’s the knowledge that an old friend has apparently married a woman who’s something of a jerk, at best. I’m wondering (because I’m nosy) if it seems to you that T has changed and has an outlook similar to B’s, or if there’s occasional tension now between T and B. If the lavish spending in the past has been more her idea than his, and if hitting up everyone for money in order to stretch her budget is also more her idea than his, this marriage may be in for a rough stretch.
*I wonder if it be helpful at this point if there’s an informal agreement that EVERYONE brings dishes to at-home entertainments, regardless of who’s hosting … and perhaps less of the hosting should fall on T and B for a while, if they are usually the default hosts.
@Anna-Cara–due respect, but as I understand it, the entire foundation of Christianity is trying to predict Jesus’ reactions to our actions. Albeit perhaps not as specifcally as the Tears of Fire, which is now the name of my new 80s metal band.
“I’m wondering (because I’m nosy) if it seems to you that T has changed and has an outlook similar to B’s, or if there’s occasional tension now between T and B. If the lavish spending in the past has been more her idea than his, and if hitting up everyone for money in order to stretch her budget is also more her idea than his, this marriage may be in for a rough stretch.”
She has already said that in other ways, these people are lovely. She has already said that she has gotten what she asked for and is moving past it. She specifically said she didn’t consider her feelings about their relationship germane to her problem. I read that as “I am not here to talk about their relationship.” Which, since I think it’s a smart instinct, I would vote in favor of respecting.
I have so enjoyed reading this entire thread, even though it has lead to the rather embarassing realization that I have been that workplace asshat. It is in bad form to initiate a conversation on the wrongheadedness (in my opinion) of the conscience clause in the lunch room when you know there are people sitting with you who are not in agreement with your position and who would likely be made uncomfortable.
Jesus probably wept for me that day. I can only hope they weren’t Tears of Fire.
@clobbered, I have to respectfully but very strongly disagree: ridicule has always been the favourite weapon of bigots and extremists, because it appeals to their childlike egoic hunger for one-upmanship, status and peer-approval (aka mob rule), so I’d advise anyone challenging prejudice to steer well clear of any self-deprecating remarks because my lifelong experience is, it WILL be turned back and used against you.
The way I see it, if you’re confronting ingrained prejudices among people who are otherwise pretty sound you should speak out from a position of dignified strength, hoping that they will likewise recognise that not everyone who supports gay marriage/racial equality/basic human dignity is a stereotype.
But if you start voluntarily wearing fool’s bells yourself, you’re just playing to their convictions that they’re basically right, and only stereotyped “big-city liberals” disagree: in fact, to use that kind of self-deprecation makes it sound like you’re not even that sure of your convictions, just not “strong” enough to face the “truth” about these issues.
@Thomasina: I find that when people use the “political correctness” thing as something that’s destroying their first amendment rights, pointing out that courtesy and correctness are not always the same. If your mom’s new dress looks like a tablecloth, you don’t keep that to yourself because it’s politically correct, you do so because it’s not polite to say things that bother other people, especially once you know it bothers them.
My best experience with this is I had an in-law who constantly talked about “the queers” and “the n-words” and how liberals were ruining our nation, etc. After repeatedly letting him know that I didn’t appreciate that kind of talk and him responding by calling me a “tree-hugging hippie,” I started talking about those “dimwit bible-thumpers” and other various phrases that malign republicans, christians, etc. He eventually got the hint and shut it with the bigotry around me. The high road? No. But effective? Yes.