The Vine: April 30, 2008
Dear Sars,
Things are a little bit wonky with my family, and I’m trying to figure out how best to deal with the situation. My brother and I both live pretty far (6+ hours’ worth of car ride in opposite directions) away from my parents. Until recently, I lived in small apartments, and so by default I ended up going to either my parents’ house or to my brother’s house any time our family got together, in spite of the fact that I’ve invited them to come see me. I’m also single and childless, so any thoughts that I have ever had on the matter have always felt secondary to the wishes of the grandchild-producing members of the family.
This was a source of irritation, but since I didn’t have the space to put up my entire family including sister-in-law and nephew, I dealt with it.
My parents’ 40th anniversary is coming up in June, and so my mother leaned on me pretty hard to go to the town where my brother lives so that we could have a good old-fashioned family gathering. I agreed, and with a bit of a terse tone, suggested that we could perhaps celebrate Christmas in my town now that I live in a place that is big enough, so that I wouldn’t have to travel, as I have done for every family gathering since I moved out of my parents’ house. Yes, as a matter of fact, I did feel compelled to bargain with my family in order to get them to visit me, and I am bitter.
My mother, although clearly not thrilled about how I worded it, agreed that Christmas at my place would be okay.
Today, almost a week after my original suggestion, I received an email from my brother in reply to my previous message, in which he re-wrote my message, pointing out that I could have stated it more nicely. He’s right, I could have ignored the fact that the situation is annoying the heck out of me, but I didn’t. I’m tired of being completely taken for granted, but I don’t want to start what is looking to be a major family feud by pursuing it. I guess what I’m asking for is assistance on how to start the conversation with my brother in a way that doesn’t make the situation worse, but doesn’t make me feel like we’re just going back to how things have always been.
Jan Brady
Dear Jan,
For starters, take it offline — over email, it’s easy to read a “tone” into things that isn’t there, which doesn’t help the situation. So, send a quick, friendly response to your brother that says you see what he means, and you’d like to give him a quick call to clarify.
Then, on the call, tell him what you just told me: you agree with him that you could have stated the request more nicely…but you have in fact traveled for every family gathering for years now, and while you apologize for letting your frustration get the better of you and you don’t want to fight about it, you would like it if the rest of the family 1) acknowledged the trouble you’ve been put to in the past, and 2) gave some thought to coming to you sometimes in the future. Phrase everything positively — “I’d love for you guys to spend time here and see what I’ve done with the place,” versus “I’m sick of always having to come to you” — and see what happens.
The other thing to keep in mind, though, is that, by always coming to them and always putting their convenience ahead of your own, you’ve trained them to expect that from you. It isn’t your “fault,” but you do have a choice here; if the rest of the family insists on having the holidays at your brother’s or your parents’, you can in fact decline to attend on the basis that it’s too difficult for you to coordinate. Yeah, I know it’s the holidays, but if you don’t want them to take you for granted, you may have to let them miss you a couple of times to get that message across.
Dear Sars,
I’m thinking about leaving my husband, but I’m not sure whether I should. It’s kind of complicated.
I’m 23, he’s 29, we’ve been together four and a half years, married for one. I’ll call him “Joe.” When our relationship started he was way more into me than I was into him, but after a few months I was head over heels. That’s when he started pulling away. I wanted to spend time with him whenever I could, but he started giving me the cold shoulder when I was at his place, and he never called or emailed me. After a few months, he freaked out and told me I was too clingy and he needed more space. I gave him more space — way more space. I spent only a day or two a week with him, which was mostly spent sitting on his bed bored out of my mind while he photoshopped and posted to forums on the internet.
He also stopped having sex with me — he was always too tired, for a month and a half. Even at the beginning we didn’t have very much sexual chemistry, but the sex was fun, and he claimed to find me attractive. Things got better, and we moved in together with a roommate after a year, which helped immensely because then I could sit in my own room on the internet when he ignored me. I still felt really clingy, because I wanted more attention than he was willing to give me.
The cycle of sexual passive-aggression continued, with frequent several-month droughts, and I found myself doing all of the initiating when we did have sex. I felt hurt, but I tried to repress that as much as I could because I thought it was one more aspect of being clingy. I tried so hard to give him enough space.
Lest this sound all bad, when he did spend time with me he was sweet and affectionate, and he always was there when I was upset. I really craved that stability. I was mostly happy, but not really satisfied, so I started asking him to marry me. In retrospect, that was probably a bad move, but I wanted it desperately at the time. We finally got engaged shortly after moving into a place of our own, and things were great for a while. He was much more affectionate than before, and the anxiety I had been feeling went away. A few months before the wedding, though, my libido completely disappeared. We were only having sex once every 3-6 months, despite my best efforts at seduction, and I finally stopped trying. I was sick and tired of getting consistently rejected for years, and found that I was no longer attracted to him. I still loved him, so I went ahead with the wedding anyway. (Yeah, I know, brilliant. I wasn’t really admitting the truth to myself yet.)
Around the time we got married, I developed a wicked crush on a mutual friend. I tried to squelch it for months, but it kept growing, so finally I told Joe about it. We had talked in the past of having an open marriage — although he was unsure at first, we talked it over for a long time and he finally agreed. Recently, I started dating “Alan,” after flirting with him for about six months. Alan is fantastic. He is sweet, sexy, and genuinely loves my company. We listen to music together, and cook fabulous dinners together, the whole bit. I start to realize just how neglected I’d been feeling for years with Joe, and slowly this flood of resentment and hurt came out of hiding.
All of a sudden, instead of just not being attracted to him, I started feeling repulsed. When he tried to cuddle me, I would stiffen up; if he tried anything more than a quick peck on the lips, I almost literally bolted, and felt this tense knot of anxiety in my stomach. I realized that my feelings were changing drastically, and started trying to repair the damage — I have managed to make repairs to the friendship, but after several months I still freak out when Joe displays any romantic intent.
What can I do, Sars? The two-boy problem is really less weird than it sounds; in fact, we all hang out occasionally on weekends, and carpool together. I kind of live a double life, half time with Joe, half time with Alan. Alan is the best thing in my life right now, and I don’t plan on giving him up. I don’t know what to do about Joe, though. If I could have a sexless marriage with him, that might work out okay for a while, but even though his libido is really low he still has one, and that wouldn’t be fair to him. I don’t think I could in good conscience stay married to a man I refuse to sleep with. My current tactic is to avoid all situations that involve deep conversation and snuggling, but that can’t last forever. I wonder now why I put up with a relationship that wasn’t meeting my needs for as long as I did. I don’t know if I will ever be able to feel sexual toward Joe again, and I still feel really resentful.
I also feel really guilty for hurting Joe’s feelings — I didn’t intend to freak out when I started dating Alan, and I feel bad that I avoid him so much. I also feel ashamed that I’m thinking of getting divorced when we’ve only been married a year — it feels like we haven’t tried enough yet, but I’m not sure I can recover from all of this sexual non-interest and resentment. I’m not sure I want to recover. At least we don’t have any kids! This has really been stressing me out. What do you suggest, Sars?
Two Plus Two Equals Three
Dear Four, Counting Your Divorce Lawyer,
You shouldn’t have gotten married in the first place; you certainly shouldn’t stay married and compound the mistake. You and Joe do not love each other and probably never did. End of story. Stop acting like the Relationship Fairy is going to show up and take care of this for you — get an attorney and end this farce, now.
Get a therapist while you’re up. That you would tie yourself legally to “then I could sit in my own room on the internet when he ignored me” is really not healthy.
Dear Sars,
I am in an odd situation and I need an unbiased opinion — hope this is an unbiased explanation. It’s a long story; I’ll try to summarize. I’ve known a girl since college (~8 years), and we’ve always gotten along really well. We’re both professionals and she’s quite intelligent but lets her feelings bottle up until you ask — she remains shy and reserved most of the time. We have talked in some form (IM, email, phone, in person) virtually once a day since leaving college. Recently I’ve realized she is one of my best friends, but besides a short period back in college I haven’t really been attracted to her and didn’t think she had any interest in me. Friends it was. We live far enough apart now that our in-person meetings happen maybe once a year.
She’s had a boyfriend for the last six years. A few months ago she came to visit, and sparks happened quite unexpectedly; she initiated a cuddle. Feelings for her arose nearly overnight, I had never thought of her this way. The following weekend I went to visit her and things got a little more serious after our first kiss. Confused, I started asking questions. She claimed that she was unsure of the feelings for her BF, and didn’t know what to do — but above all didn’t want to hurt me. A few weeks after that, the BF proposed but she walked out on him. I was the first person she called. (They live near each other, not together.)
During that call, she confessed that one of the reasons she left was because she was thinking of me, and said that she was having some doubts that the relationship was working. So between her and the BF — nothing more was said. They didn’t break up, mind you, they just haven’t discussed it. After a week or two she says it was like the event never happened — she didn’t want have the talk because of the holidays, et cetera… (excuse?) and he didn’t ask for an explanation. In fact it hasn’t come up, to my knowledge, in over two months.
Since the proposal, she and I talked nightly for 1-2 or even three hours at a time, hashing through our life stories and desires for the future. I think I’ve really gotten her to open up to me on a number of things. I was very happy but sad that she wasn’t “mine”… Before the New Year, she came down to visit again. Things got fairly steamy but she didn’t let it go all the way. We exchanged feelings at one point and she said things like “I like you…a LOT” and “you’d be easy to fall in love with but I have to hold back because of the complicated situation”. She hasn’t ever lied to me before and I know her well enough that I can tell when she’s making things up. This seems legit.
Anyway — there’s a lot more. I’ve really gotten attached to her and this is the first time I’ve been this attracted to someone on a wholesome level (i.e. not on looks alone). I’m very curious as to what would happen with us and want to take it to further. Based on the conversations we’ve had it seems she does too, but she’s not taking action to end or even discuss her relationship with the BF. I would think he’d know something’s up at this point.
Upon advice from friends, I had a long talk with her and completely placed the ball in her court. I stated my feelings once again — that I loved her and I liked being her best friend as well as more than friends…but she needed to make a decision one way or the other. This is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do. I said that either way is fine — it is her decision — but it’d take quite some time (if ever) before I could go back to “just friends” if the vote is not in my favor. She understood and was quite saddened that I sprung this upon her. I reiterated that I wasn’t mad or upset; she should know that I’m waiting but won’t be around forever.
A month has gone by and recently we’ve exchanged occasional IMs (she made first contact) and an email — all conversations have avoided the decision subject (history repeats itself?)…I replied to about half of them with only very short notes, basically not being my complete self. As far as I’m concerned, she’s the one breaking “the rules” and she should know it’s on her to initiate the next move. With that background (sorry it was long)…
Since she’s shy, might she be waiting for me to bring things up and hash it out? Might she think she already made a move?
I really want her to take the initiative on this in order to verify her commitment to me. Am I right in taking this track?
Her B-day is coming up soon. Should I still send the present I’ve had for her in order to keep myself on her mind? It’s small…and “friendly,” not mushy. If so, what should I say in the card?
What’s my next move, or do I continue to let her have the ball? Do I quit trying? I’m not a quitter — and I really think this could be the start of something big. I haven’t stopped looking for other girls.
Do you think I’ll have trust issues in the future based on what she’s done to her BF?
Hoping I’m Not Completely Crazy
Dear Comp,
In order: I don’t think so; it doesn’t matter; probably; no; quit trying; probably.
You’ve made every possible excuse for her; you’ve bent over backwards to make it easy, or as easy as you can on your end, for her to split up with her boyfriend and choose you. For whatever reason, she hasn’t done it, and whether it’s that she’s shy, or afraid, or has trust issues of her own which is why she hedges her bets, the reason doesn’t matter. I’ve said this before, and it applies here: after a while, the “why” of ambiguous, hurtful behavior ceases to matter. It’s ambiguous and hurtful, and if it doesn’t stop, you need to stop exposing yourself to it.
I don’t think she’s a bad person, your friend, but…she’s not your friend anymore, for one thing. You have deeper feelings for her. For another thing, she’s not returning those feelings in any consistent way; nor is she respecting them when she reaches out to you without having made a choice or confronted her boyfriend. You know…this is a woman who, when her boyfriend asked her to marry him, walked away from him because she had thoughts of another man, and didn’t tell her boyfriend that — or anything else. Is that really the kind of emotional paralysis you want to commit to?
This isn’t about you, or anything that’s wrong with you or that you’ve handled badly. This is about her, and the news just isn’t going to get better on that front. You’ve done the best you could with a bad situation, but even that isn’t working, so it’s time to admit that it’s bad, and get out. Tell her you can’t do this anymore, and cut her off for three months, minimum. She’ll be sad; that’s too bad, but she could have avoided it. You’ll be sad; that can’t really be avoided, but it will end. Start moving on.
Tags: boys (and girls) the fam
These are all interesting letters in different ways, but I’m going to comment on the single person with the holiday travel.
I’ve been in this situation, too. I think it’s important to distinguish between “they don’t care about my plans” and “it is easier to plan and move around, all other things being equal, when there is one person than when there are two people and one or more children.” The same holds true of traveling. I face issues when I have to make plans and travel, but when my sister and her husband have to pack up their kids and go on a plane, I understand that that’s a bigger pain in the rear for them. It’s not that they should never do it — they do it, sometimes. But I am sympathetic to the fact that they’d rather not. This doesn’t mean they think my schedule isn’t important; it just means my logistical hassles are not as great as theirs.
So I think the first thing to do is to just talk in the least emotional way possible to your family and try to clear the air so that you don’t let yourself feel undervalued when that’s not what they intend. What happened in my case, frankly, was that my family started offering to subsidize my travel, since I always, always came to them instead of the other way around. It’s not a bribe or anything like that; it’s a recognition that travel involves expense, and it’s also, I think, a sort of…it’s a symbolic acknowledgment. “We are putting you out and we get that; here is how we say thank you for rolling with the punches.”
I’m not suggesting you hit them up for money; I just think there are ways to get people to recognize that they ARE asking for a favor — if it’s easier not to travel with the kid or there’s some other logistical reason they think it’s easier for you. And you can do that favor without being a doormat. But I agree 100 percent that if that’s not the reason and the assumption is simply that you get no vote because that’s the tradition, you have to put your foot down and stop showing up. It would be sad, but it’s better than letting the resentment build up.
The last letter (the chick who won’t commit/walks out on Mr. Bended Knee) reminds me of SO many situations in which I’ve made excuse after excuse after excuse for someone who stayed on the fence. It’s difficult–but freeing–to realize that if you have to BEG someone to make a decision, the decision has really already been made, and it isn’t in your favor.
The family/travel thing can be awful. My husband is the youngest child, the only boy, and the only one with no children. We’re expected to do virtually all of the traveling, but the frustrating part is that it seems to come with a sense of “You don’t have kids – what else do you have to do?” It’s very easy for people with children to romanticize the good old days and remember weekends as marathons of reading, napping and snacking. In reality, we work some at least most weekends, travel a lot for work, and have plenty to do at home when we’re actually here. Fortunately, with us it’s more a sibling thing than a parent thing, and my in-laws are fabulous about making the trip in our direction when we’ve not been able to get home for awhile. Meanwhile, the siblings won’t communicate directly and keep sniping at each other while I try to stay out of it, but that’s my own Vine letter….
I do realize that logistically it’s easier for my husband and I to hop in the car than it is for family members with kids. I get that. I totally do. But there is something to be said for the fact that people choose to have kids, you know? If I choose to move to Alaska, something that would make visiting my family more difficult, I don’t think I’d be fair to expect them to make up the difference. Kids make visiting more difficult, but I don’t believe that other people have a duty to compensate others for their choices. It’s nice, family often does that, but “we have kids” shouldn’t be played as a trump card in family travel plans.
All that said, laying it out in “I” language really made a difference with my brother. I had to call him on his behavior (he’s always “busy” but I reminded him that the last three times I’d called HIM, he’d been watching movies or playing games), and I had to point out that while I knew he was busy, he had to agree that a possible interpretation of the situation was that I wasn’t a priority. He’s still not always great about getting in touch, but he’s aware now and at least contrite when I’ve left a message and he’s not called me back for two days. Sometimes, an apology and/or some awareness goes a long way, even if the situation doesn’t change much!
These are interesting…and I’ll choose Not Completely Crazy for $200. As I read his letter, I was reminded of a guy who manages the car wash I go to. One day he was talking to a co-worker (and included me in the conversation) about whether he should break up with his girlfriend – she’s emotionally manipulative, expects him to let her be suggestive with other men, etc.
The next time I saw him at the car wash I asked how things were going. He didn’t leave her, but he didn’t sound happy about it. I saw him this past weekend and asked if he was hanging in there, and he said “Yeah, I’m at about 85%. I don’t like starting over and I don’t like being alone.” The man is smoking hot and could have any number of women. I was stunned. People stay for strange reasons…and simple ones. But you don’t want to get caught in their confusion. I hope Not Crazy stays clear of her. He’ll never know what she’s really thinking.
This may just be me, but as far as that first letter goes, I don’t get it.
Why is she resenting her family for not visiting her when she had no space to accommodate them, but both her brother and her mother had the space to accommodate large gatherings? It seems to me, now that the situation has changed, she could have asked them to come over and they probably would have. Instead, she’s manipulating/bargaining with them and being passive-aggressive, and now she’s annoyed the family don’t appreciate her as much as she would have liked? I don’t get how that adds up.
I mean, it’s fair enough to ask them to come over now that she’s got a place with more potential in that area, but it seems unfair to hold the fact that family gatherings were held in places that could put up that many people against her family members. There seems to be a lot of passive aggression about things the family couldn’t help at all, including the grandchild-baring qualities of sisters in law, which makes me wonder if this potential family feud that was mentioned is really about travelling.
I just had to jump in an second everything Sars said. I’m the youngest in a family of four kids, the only one without kids, *and* the only one that moved more than an hour from our parents’ farm. So, I’m pretty much screwed on not being the one to travel- there’s just no way for all of them to come to me.
However, that also means that I burn up all my vacation time going home twice a year to see them, plus the added expense of the travel. I have mentioned to them all how much it costs to travel and they all offered to help offset the cost of the airfare. I’ve never taken them up on it, but the offer was enough to make me feel better. Also, they know how tough it is for me to burn through vacation to come see them and have to pay to board my dog, etc and always acknowledge that. They tend to drop their schedules when I am around and adjust them to mine.
All that is to say that when I didn’t make it their fault that I had to travel- just mentioned how tough it can be to be the only one that has to do it all the time and they understood and found ways to say how they appreciated it.
This last Chrismas my brother chose not to be home the entire ten days I was there in favor of visiting in-laws. It actually ticked off the whole family (really, they had to be gone the entire time? At Christmas?). So, this year I decided to not go home in the summer and actually get to use my vacation for me. The others all understood and my sister is even coming to visit me.
And if I get some satisfaction in ditching his ass for greener pastures, well, that’s just a bonus. So, yeah, making them miss you isn’t always a bad idea. If you can do it some other time than Christmas, though, I would. Not for them, but for yourself. Even though we were ticked, we all missed him. But then we are a very tight-knit family and Christmas has always been the one time a year we’re all together no matter what, so we might be weird that way.
Two Plus–I skated pretty near something like your situation. I had been with this guy off and on, for a few years. We’d get together, than (in what would be an epic Vine if I was still seeing him) he left me for his best friend’s wife, who then left him, got back together with her husband, then left him again for her husband’s brother. I felt bad for him after hearing this saga, we got back together but the relationship didn’t go anywhere…. you fill in the rest.
The point is, at one point we were considering moving in together. We got along great, never fought, etc. but we were thinking of it as a way to try to force the relationship to go somewhere. I realized he was thinking of proposing for this same reason, and was absolutely queasy with dread at the thought. I took this as a sign to break up with him.
We did. He’s happily in California pursuing an acting career, and I met my husband and got happily married. If you don’t love each other, no matter how much you like each other, the marriage will not survive. No matter how much time and angst you feel like you’ll be wasting by admitting the truth, believe me, it is so, so worth it to get your life and thoughts back.
@Jan: you didn’t mention in your letter whether your prior invitations to your family were formal/planned (“I’m having a housewarming in June and I’d like you all to book the weekend off!”) or casual (“Feel from to come up and see me whenever you feel like getting away for a weekend!”)
I might be off in my interpretation of the situation, here, but I thought it would be worth noting the headache-preventing effectiveness of . . . just straight-up telling the people you care about exactly what you want/need/expect from them, long *before* it gets to the point where you’re feeling snappy at them for not reading between the lines on their own.
I agree wholeheartedly with your advice to the young lady who needs a divorce lawyer, like, yesterday. But I have to add something to it — that she should not count on her relationship with “Alan” to get her through this difficult time. The last thing she should do is leap from one relationship to another. She should cool it with Alan and spend some time figuring out why she married that other guy. Something tells me Alan will seem a lot less interesting once he is no longer “forbidden.”
I have to pitch in about the family thing- even me being the only one in the family with small kids didn’t make my family be any more willing to come visit me! (Yes, I AM resentful that I’m expected to pack up my toddler and drive three hours to visit my retired father, why do you ask?) I don’t have any advice for the letter writer except to be forthright with your family, as Sars suggested. It was only after years of stewing about it that I finally had a big blowup with my dad (over email no less) that actually got him willing to make the tiniest bit of effort. NOT the healthiest solution. I also totally agree with Sars that you just might have to make them miss you some, for them to get the point. I think a combination of the two (not simply passively making other plans and not telling the family why, like I did) has to be the best bet.
And Ebeth, I’m sorry your family isn’t more understanding. I do agree that I chose to have my daughter, and I really don’t mind traveling with her at all. And I certainly do NOT expect that my family members without small kids don’t have anything better to do! I just don’t think it’s right that I’m ALWAYS the one doing the driving, as has been the case in my family since I left my parents’ house. It bothered me even when I was single, but it bothers me more now, because my dad would rather inconvenience me AND my kid than himself.
We have the family traveling issue as well. As the middle of three sisters and the only one with kids, my husband and I found that we were still expected to do the same amount of traveling we did prior to the kids. This wasn’t a big deal when we were all within a short distance, although it was still irritating to have to pack clothing, feeding and diapering supplies for two small children instead of just having people come to us.
Recently we moved 1800 miles away, and the first thing the family asks is, “When are you coming back to visit?” After the apoplexy-inducing flight to our new home with our 3 year old (she’s not a good traveler) I’m really not keen to take her anywhere that requires sitting for long periods of time. I’ve told my family this, and also explained that I am more than willing to purchase their tickets – it’s cheaper for me and they get a free flight. I think subsidizing other people’s travel is the way to go if you can arrange it that way.
Ah, the travel issue. I really do think the writer needs to talk with her family, first and foremost. These issues seem obvious to her, but are probably not as readily apparent to her family. Like Linda says, I always try to fund as much of my sister’s travel as I can, because she comes to us every year.
I see both sides. My hubby and I did all the traveling for years, until we had a baby. Now, I put my foot down, and it causes a lot of passive aggressive angst with his parents, but I try not to be pushed either way. It’s not about me, it’s about what’s best for my child – and no, we’re not strapping her in a car for 11 hours, or dealing with airports, during the busiest time of year. Plus, it’s not just the travel, it’s the adjusting to sleeping arrangements, etc. Isn’t that horrible!? People without kids reading this must hate me. I am totally the nightmare mom! Oh well.
There’s a tradeoff of course, where I have to you know, HOST the holiday festivities, as a working mom. Sometimes the 11 hours in the car seems worth it, especially when scouring toilets at midnight and trying to plan a fancy meal that will please everyone…
I’m going to take a moment to talk with/to/about Two Plus – I do think she needs a divorce lawyer, yesterday. I will, however, disagree with Julie here; while I don’t think “Alan” is necessarily going to get her through this time, I also don’t think it’s necessary for Two Plus to stop seeing Alan. I don’t think it’s the “forbidden” aspect of her relationship with Alan that makes him appealing; I think it’s the fact, oh, that Alan doesn’t ignore her that’s appealing. I think she needs to stop stewing and simmering with resentment over the treatment (or lack thereof) that Joe dealt her and just get out of that relationship. I’m not implying she doesn’t have the right to stew, simmer, or cook until done – she does, and it’s going to take a long, long time to get over the kind of hurt that that kind of treatment fosters. You always wonder what was wrong with you … even when there wasn’t anything wrong with you. There’s no fixing that kind of hurt in a relationship. There’s no amount of counseling that will cause Party A to say to Party B, “You’re right! Suddenly, I want you more!” There’s really no reason for her to stay in that relationship. She may or may not wind up in a long-term relationship with Alan (either of which would be fine); but there’s no way she should stay married to Joe.
On the travel front:
If you are the youngest you will always be the baby. If you have no kids you will always be the kid. Seriously, I am 33 and the last time I was at a family gathering my aunt wouldn’t let me have a beer. And yes, I still have to sit at the kiddie table. You cannot make your family see you as an adult–lord knows I have tried.
If you are single your family will always assume that nothing is inconvenient for you. I live in a wonder, big city. There are buses and airports and taxi’s and any number of wonderful modes of transportation. To get home, I have to catch the first bus at 2:30 AM. Then I have to walk 10 blocks (luggage in hand) to go to the IHOP and have the only food I will get a chance to have until the end of the trip. Then walk the 12 blocks back and catch the other city bus to the airport at 5:00. Then I have to get on the plane and fly to Denver. Then get on another plane and fly to Boise or Portland, getting in about noon. Then I catch a city bus across town to the Greyhound station. Then I catch the bus (1:30 out of Boise and 2:00 out of Portland) home, getting into the town my parents live in at around 5:00 PM. This is, supposedly, easier than them driving to the airport, catching the plane and then taking the airport Dillo to my front door. (Almost literally).
@pp Jen — you’re not a nightmare mom. You’re a contientious mom. I do the exact same thing.
Jan needs to drop the passive-aggressiveness and speak up, without being snippy. That said, if I were her brother, I still would not pack up my little kids to spend a holiday in a hotel or a home where they had never been and was probably not babyproofed. Probably bro needs to stay home and parents should go visit Jan themselves.
I totally read Comp as a woman. It doesn’t make much difference, but maybe I missed something.
@autiger23 – I can totally understand your feelings about your brother missing your visit, but as someone from the other side of the situation I can tell you that it’s hell sometimes.
My husband comes from a close knit rural family where his entire family tree on both sides, aside from him, my father-in-law (whom we don’t see), and one aunt and uncle, all live within a ten mile radius. My husband also admits that people in the immediate family have always “married into” the family, in the sense that they either don’t have parents anymore or they live several states away, or something else that means that they always go to his family for holidays. So the expectation is that we will too.
My family is scattered across multiple states, and not one of them is closer than four hours away from my in-laws. We’re about 5.5 hours away from my in-laws, 3 hours away from my mom, and 4 hours away from my surviving grandmother (on my father’s side). My mom is terrorfied of travel (she has a variety of mental illnesses), and she and my husband don’t get along anyhow.
The discussion of what family to see when on Thanksgiving and Christmas is one that begins as late as we can put it off, but no later than October. That’s not even counting the negotiations we have around Easter, family vacations, and *shudder* this week’s Mother’s Day conversation. It’s a delicate dance of “we went to your grandparent’s for Thanksgiving last year”, “you know that we’ll have more fun at grandpa and grandma’s for Christmas”, “my mom does expect us for the occasional holiday, you know”, “my brother and Roshawnda are going to Nan’s for Thanksgiving”, “Nan and Vince are going to Aunt Betty’s for Christmas Eve dinner – let’s go to your mom’s instead, you know I can’t stand her”, etc. etc. etc. In the end, we usually arrive at a compromise that satifies no one, not even ourselves, and then use up most of our jobs’ vacation time doing some variation of three days here before such-and-such-holiday because of the travel time involved, one day here, and a morning in one place and an afternoon in another because they’re less than an hour apart. And no one ever comes to us – it’s just too complicated.
I dream of the day that teleportation becomes possible.
“That said, if I were her brother, I still would not pack up my little kids to spend a holiday in a hotel or a home where they had never been and was probably not babyproofed. Probably bro needs to stay home and parents should go visit Jan themselves.”
Respectfully, kids go places all day that aren’t “babyproofed.” We lived for many centuries without any such thing as “babyproofing.” I do think that if parents refuse to take their children anywhere that doesn’t meet their standards of babyproofing (let alone not taking them to someplace they’ve never been), then the parents are choosing to see less of the relatives, because you simply can’t expect people to come to you every time. It’s fine if you want to do that, but then your kids won’t see their relatives much. I would never compromise and do all the traveling if the only explanation was “your house isn’t babyproofed.” You can always take some cabinet locks with you and stick them on the doors with the cleaning products, but…I don’t think controlled environments at all times are a realistic expectation. My grandparents’ house was never babyproofed, and we spent every nearly every Christmas there when we were growing up.
@MrsHaley: I totally though Comp was a woman too. It wasn’t until I got to the “other man” part that it being a guy crossed my mind. I had to go back and re-read nearly the entire thing.
Wow I have way too many thoughts on the family and travel issue. I am either in now or see myself in the future in any number of those situations, except with in-laws. And I feel like autiger might be my sister in law… heh. I get that you’re upset you didn’t get to see your brother, but maybe you could try to look at it as less that your brother didn’t want to be with you and more as that his wife for once got a nice long Christmas with her family AND her husband. I spent a long Christmas with my in-laws this year, and while they’re lovely people and I love them, for someone who gets to see their family twice a year if they’re lucky (me) not getting to see them from Thanksgiving to… July, I will next see anyone, is very lonely and sad for me. I hate when my husband talks about how “tight knit” his family is, as if it doesn’t hurt me to not see my family for eight to ten months at a time. “But my family is so close, we’re always together!” And my family is… chopped liver? WTF? It’s just a suck byproduct of geography that a couple often ends up spending all their time with the closer family because in theory it’s faster and cheaper to get to them.
With as often as we drive to my in-laws, and the price of gas and tolls, if we went just 3/4 as often as we go now, we could fly to see my family an additional 1-2 times a year. Somehow we can never “afford” plane tickets to Ohio, but we can always “afford” $40 of gas and $20 of tolls to Long Island every weekend all summer – $240 a month that we do not have – because “it’s family” and “don’t you want to go to the beach???” Bitter? Me? Hee. Financially he knows this summer we can not and will not be doing that.
It’s such a complicated situation, when families, holidays, and travel are involved. To the original letter, I’m with Michelene. Extending a formal invitation to everyone to visit you is probably the best way to go. That makes it clear that not only are they welcome to visit you, they are specifically invited, you WANT them to come at a particular time, and you have specifically made plans to accommodate them. The reaction to that invitation will tell you whether they really are taking you for granted and/or assuming that you will always come to them.
To Two Plus, I want to comment on feeling ashamed and like you haven’t “tried enough” in your marriage… I can understand that. It partly comes from your background – your family and what ideas about marriage you were raised with, etc. Trust me, you should not feel like a quitter or a failure if you get divorced, you will feel BETTER once you are out of an unhappy situation. If you do feel badly, you can and should deal with that in therapy. The situation was bad from the start, there is no reason to prolong the agony. I just wanted to say, my brother went through this seven years ago – he separated from his first wife after only seven months. The divorce was final only a couple of months after their first anniversary. He went through the same guilt, like he was a quitter or a failure. Even though he had his doubts before the wedding – he felt like it was too late to call it off. They were not a good match. It happens. Yes relationships take work, but you’ve done all you can. It isn’t working. Your husband isn’t meeting you halfway. You’ve tried enough. You’ve suffered enough. It’s time to end it. Don’t let the guilt hold you there, it’s not worth it.
Regarding Jan’s email – holidays are always a tricky balancing job that’s sometimes hard to avoid if you don’t want to suffer a) weeks/months/years of passive-aggressive reproachfulness/guilt trips, or b) being disowned outright, so sometimes you just eat the annoying company, long trips, or the presenceof second-cousin Joe’s incredibly undisciplined kids because they’re family, and if you need them, they’ll [usually] be there for you. One trick my parents had was to invite those who were difficult to nail down for a major holiday & invite them to the cottage for a weekend in the summer so they didn’t guilt or get guilted by unavoidable absences, were able to feel it was more a holiday & kids were able to run wild.
@ Linda – Looking at my friends’ houses, I’ve always wondered how the species has survived so long without babyproofing. My mum had plugs & gates & cables all over the place when I was small (they were gone by the time my siblings came along). I clearly recall sitting on a floor at my parents, picking the safety plugs out of the electrical outlets, and another time sitting on the floor at my grandmother’s, completely ignoring her wide-open outlets. Never electrocuted myself, however, and the worst baby injury I apparently suffered was being dropped by my dad. How do you babyproof butterfinger parents?
We had the family travel thing too, who with family doesn’t? I couldn’t get my husband’s family to come to us for love or money, despite how much they truly love us and want to see us. We “solved” it somewhat after we moved into a bigger house. We now host Thanksgiving, and “everyone is more than welcome to come” or not. Chaos for 36 hours, but it’s my house so it’s easier. My suggestion is to pick an easier holiday, and claim it as your own.
One of the benefits of growing up in a military/DOD family is that with the usually frequent moves to sometimes far flung places is that the idea that family MUST be visited on certain holidays is pretty much driven out of you. Visits are planned for when Dad (or Mom) has leave and when the kids don’t have school and travel can be afforded. Thanksgiving, and Christmas are often out because the time to visit is too short to be worthwhile.
I’ve often thought that if I ever marry, one of the pre-marital criteria will be an agreement that major holidays will be spent mostly at home. At most I would want three year rotation of his family, my family, just us.
I think I love this commenting and discussion of Vine questions. Hope this is the start of a new trend here. : )
Also, can I third or fifteenth or whatever the notion that Two Plus needs a divorce lawyer yesterday? Oy. Don’t feel bad about ending it, honey; you can’t go back and do it over better, so just go forward (and OUT!) as best you can. And, in this case, pronto.
Here is a different perspective on Comp. I think it’s possible for some people – and possibly Comp’s friend is like this – to get to be as old as “8 years since collegeâ€, if that’s 28, or even 30 years old – and still not grasp the importance of some emotional events in their lives. If so, then Comp won’t get the reaction he wants out of her without being put to the trouble and emotional cost of repeating it until she really really hears it. And that’s not the same as her being in the permanent condition of being emotionally unavailable; it’s more that she could need someone to say “Wake up, you ditz, this is a serious new event in your life hereâ€.
Humans aren’t that telepathic. The effort Person A is prepared to make before their pride gets hurt doesn’t necessarily happen to match the effort required to successfully get information into Person B’s unprepared skull. But the point about that is, A’s natural instinct as to when to flounce off, or as to what is needed to keep his self respect intact, isn’t the infallible guide as to the right thing to do.
I have in mind two friends of mine, in whose relationship the woman spent four years saying to the man “I want you to treat this relationship seriously or I will (insert sanction, in one case working in another State for a year and staying out of contact)â€. He liked her, he cared about her, but he certainly didn’t feel like it was a foregone conclusion that he was going to marry her, at the point in time when she was sure she wanted to marry him. He continued dating and he continued not committing to a relationship and not auditioning for marriage. She issued another threat; they moved in together and he continued to window-shop around. She issued another threat and they got engaged, and then married. To me, that looked from the outside like getting someone to marry you by hitting them repeatedly with a stick. I would have found it intolerable. However, they are married, they have a fantastic child, they’re living a very real non-fairy-tale negotiated fair-bargain life with each other. That seems to me a better outcome than saying “I live alone, I’m not sure if I could have had a relationship with that woman with whom I had an eight year friendship but the important thing is that I preserved my pride by doing exactly only what I was comfortable with.â€
I don’t mean completely ignore your instinct and your pride. But maybe it’s like a Pilates exercise extension; after you’ve made the first stretch, make a conscious decision to go a little bit further. Inhale, exhale, protect your muscles, protect the small of your back, and carefully and consciously go further than you were at first prepared to. Good luck to Comp with whatever he does about it.
I also feel the need to comment on the family travel situation. It sucks, big time, end of story. My boyfriend and I live together in Cincinnati, which creates a number of family visitation issues. The first is that he’s the only one of four brothers without children, which forces us to do the bulk of the travel back to his parents’ in central Ohio. We’re also forced to coordinate our plans when his brothers come into town; they live much further out West and have children, and only make it back home once or twice a year. Secondly, since we live relatively close to his parents (in comparison to the other brothers) so we visit his family for almost every holiday known to man. This brings up the third problem. I’m an only child and my entire family lives back East. I get to see them every other Christmas, and that’s it, unless they come out here. My mother and step-father have come to visit on a number of occassions, no problem. My father, however, has not been out here ONCE since I moved two years ago. The sad thing is, we’re always had a very close relationship, and the last thing I want is a measly 10-hour-drive to ruin that. DEEP BREATH [/end rant]
Ultimately, “Jan”, you did the right thing. You’re family should be more willing to examine your thoughts and feelings concerning visits, holidays, etc. Good for you, and here’s hoping for the best!
@Polly: Your point about not letting pride dictate the best course of action is taken…but you do need to have *some* self-respect in situations like this. More to the point, the hitting the girl with the stick in this case isn’t having the desired effect, short- or long-term. The girl is still with her boyfriend, let’s not forget. And is cheating on him, which like it or not is a pattern that tends to repeat.
Maybe if Comp is like, “You don’t get it, so we’re done here,” she will realize she’s losing something valuable, and adjust her behavior — but he needs not to do it for that reason, and he needs not to expect her to respond that way. She clearly has commitment problems; it’s not about his pride. It’s that, even if he swallows said pride again, it’s very unlikely to have much effect.
@Risha
Sorry, I totally didn’t tell the whole story and I don’t want to seem like some ridiculously unreasonable in-law. :) It was not even my sister-in-law that was the issue- it was all on my brother. I would be *absolutely* fine with them a) wanting to spend some time each Christmas or every other or what-have-you with her family. Nothing wrong with that at all. *She* wanted to just go down there for a few days before Christmas and then Christmas day and then come back up in time to have some kind of Christmas with our family. *He* didn’t want to travel ‘that far’ just to spend five days with her family. They had to be there over two weeks to make it ‘worth it’ to him.
I really wanted to say to him- ‘well, I traveled ‘that far’ for just a *weekend* when your son hasd his First Communion and you wanted me to come.’
I think holidays should be shared equally- I have friends who go to hubby’s parents for T-Day one year and Christmas the next and then the wife’s family the opposite. I think that’s the best solution because it means no one’s family gets the short stick on the ‘better’ holiday and and yet they get to see each side every year. Means a lot of travel though.
Oh, and the other reason it irked my family is because her family *never* comes up to visit them- her mom and dad are both retired and her brother only has two kids to their three, yet *she* has ot go down to see them, and she does at least twice a year- three times this year since they went at Christmas, too. It just seems like a crock that they ‘get’ Christmas when they are all a bunch of asshats to her (never help her with the kids when she goes down there,- she was ticked about that) and my family is always going over to help them with stuff- my Mom goes over at least three times a year to help them paint, plant flowers and garden, etc – she stayed with my sister-in-law for a week to help cook and take care of the kids when my brother was gone for a week; my parents always look after their dog when they go to her parents’ (including this Chrismas); my brother, Dad and I helped them build their house- it’s just a myriad of things that we do for them as opposed to her family not even being able to be bothered to come see her, let alone do anything else. Years of resentment. LOL!
So, yeah, it wasn’t just a ‘we’re tight knit and you’re not’- that’s assy. Her family *chooses* not to be tight knit to her and we tend to kind of not like them for that. In our mind, they don’t take care of their own well enough. Which is judgmental and jerky of us probably, but that’s just us. Heh!
@autiger23 – Now, see, that’s necessary information. Feel free to resent him and them all you want. :)