Baseball

“I wrote 63 songs this year. They’re all about Jeter.” Just kidding. The game we love, the players we hate, and more.

Culture and Criticism

From Norman Mailer to Wendy Pepper — everything on film, TV, books, music, and snacks (shut up, raisins), plus the Girls’ Bike Club.

Donors Choose and Contests

Helping public schools, winning prizes, sending a crazy lady in a tomato costume out in public.

Stories, True and Otherwise

Monologues, travelogues, fiction, and fart humor. And hens. Don’t forget the hens.

The Vine

The Tomato Nation advice column addresses your questions on etiquette, grammar, romance, and pet misbehavior. Ask The Readers about books or fashion today!

Home » The Vine

The Vine: July 14, 2010

Submitted by on July 14, 2010 – 11:12 AM36 Comments

Dear Sars,

I’ve been searching the web for help on this problem and I couldn’t find anything on this topic: Pressure to defriend someone on a social networking website.

A year ago I dated “Albert,” who was horrible in so many ways. He’s a coke addict in his mid 30s who clearly will never change his ways and has complete disregard for other people’s feelings. We dated for only about 3 months, but it was intense and so much craziness transpired in that time. He was a charmer, very good at lying, and cheated on me several times with different women. There was so much drama (soap opera-like) in the short period of time that we were on speaking terms last year.

After or during the whole situation last year, I was open in revealing the whole story to my family and a few of my friends. No one who knows the story likes him now, and they all urge (and some even demand) that I stay as far away as possible from him. They found my whole involvement with Albert self-destructive.

I have no intention of ever contacting Albert again — he hurt me so much, I don’t trust him, and I don’t agree with his lifestyle (the drug habit). Though he did a lot of hurtful things, I’m not angry at him, nor do I hate him. During the chaos that happened last year, I did delete him once from my social networking friend list, but he became my “friend” on it again. I have no issues with him being on my “friend” list.

However, “Bob,” one of my good friends who knows the whole story, questioned me for being “friends” with Albert on the social networking site. He’s giving me till the end of the week to defriend Albert. Otherwise, Bob says he will defriend me on the website.

I really don’t want to defriend Albert and I don’t feel the need to do it. It feels childish to defriend him, and we have several friends in common so it would be noticeable. I’ve already deleted him before, so I feel another deletion would look especially ridiculous.

Another reason I have for keeping him as a “friend” is that Albert is “friends” on the site with a nemesis I have, “Carla.” She’s a former friend who repetitively flirted with him while I was dating him and bad-mouthed me to him. So if Carla is still his “friend” on the site while I’m not, it would feel like Carla wins in some way. Silly, but that’s how I feel.

I don’t like that Bob is pressuring me to do this and giving me this ultimatum. We’re in our 30s and I think we should let each other do what we want to do. I think being “friends” with Albert on the website is minor and that it shouldn’t matter to Bob. It’s none of Bob’s business, but I don’t want to mess up my friendship with Bob. I’m not even sure if he also intends to end our actual friendship in addition to ending our cyber friendship.

What can I do? What can I say to Bob so that he could reconsider his ultimatum? Should I defriend Albert just to keep Bob happy? Is this a battle worth fighting? Thanks for any advice from you and the peanut gallery.

Pulled Apart on the Web

Dear Pull,

You should block Albert, and let Carla “win.” Let her have him. Albert treated you badly, which it sounds like everyone already knows, so “noticeably” defriending him again wouldn’t make as many waves as you think — if any. Most people don’t spend that much time monitoring one another’s friend lists. Cut them both dead; life’s too short.

You didn’t ask me about that part, but I mention it because I think you know it’s the best thing to do; you just don’t want to do it because now Bob has ordered you to, and I’m sympathetic to that, because…most people don’t spend that much time monitoring one another’s friend lists, because see above re: life’s too short. Perhaps this is Bob’s version of an intervention; perhaps this is Bob’s way of expressing feelings for you; I really can’t say, and I get the distinct feeling there’s a lot I haven’t been told here.

Regardless, it would be one thing if Bob were worried about you maintaining an in-person friendship with Albert. But this? Let Bob do what he’s going to do. He wants to defriend you, let him, and if he ends his in-person friendship with you over it, then he’s a giant drama queen you’re well shut of, so let him do that too. Thank him for his concern, but advise him that you don’t respond to emotional blackmail, and change the subject…to him getting a hobby, and no, Facebook doesn’t count.

Hi Sars,

I’ve lived away from my home country for nearly 13 years. I didn’t intend to be away for this long, but I met somebody, we got married, and life and careers have kept us here. I get pretty homesick on occasion and we do intend to head back to my home country in a few years’ time, but for now we’re in the UK.

Being 12,000 miles away from my family has forced me to become very independent: you can’t really call your mother to complain about every little thing that goes wrong in your day when there’s a 12-hour time difference. I think this independence has been very good for me and I’ve seen that my sisters have not gained it: they both live in my hometown and see my parents, and each other, all the time.

My sisters have received a lot of financial and emotional support from my parents over the years. They’ve both got kids (I haven’t) and have had various dramas (failed marriages, etc.) which have required parental bail-outs at various times. My mother occasionally talks about the financial support in particular and makes noises about how it will all even out when the wills are read, but I’ve told her (and do believe) that it couldn’t matter less. I’m a grown-up, we have enough to support ourselves, and I think I’d have to be virtually homeless before I’d ask my 65-year-old parents for financial support.

However, I’ve really noticed that I don’t get any emotional support these days. There’s a bit of a back story here: when I was younger and still living in my home country I did get a lot of “mothering,” but as time has passed and I’ve been away, it’s tailed off. This is largely because I’ve pushed to be treated like a grown-up, so when we have had time at home (like the few months we spent there in 2003) and my mother tried to be as involved in our lives as she is in my sisters’ lives, I had a bit of a Clearing of the Air with her and said that I really didn’t need it, could we just get on like two adults and not like a parent and their wayward child, etc.

I fear I may have been too successful. My husband was diagnosed with a serious degenerative illness three years ago (and remains very fit and healthy, thank goodness), and my family were really “…whatever” about it. As time has passed, they’re still like that — they barely even ask about it. This avoidance is made easier because they barely contact me. My sisters and I catch up on a casual basis on Facebook, but months can pass without my mother contacting me.

I know, I could be contacting her too, and after a trip home earlier in the year I came back to the UK with good intentions to do that, but after a few weeks of me always being the one to call (both her and my sisters) and then gradually realising that it was all about me putting in the effort, I decided to see what would happen if I left it for them to contact me and maintain the relationship. I think it’s been about four months now…

The thing is, I’ve realised that I need the support. All my good friends are on the other side of the world and I really don’t feel like I have people to turn to here — they’ve been and gone. And my husband’s health situation causes me stress and worry on a daily basis, and it’s only going to get worse. And I’m having dramas at work and don’t know what to do (particularly as the awesomeness of my job has been the main trade-off for having to live somewhere other than where I really want to be). And we’re just starting to investigate fertility treatment after 18 fruitless months of trying to get knocked up. My family has no idea about the work and baby situations.

My question is this: how can I, as an independent 35-year-old woman, tell my family that I need some degree of emotional support from them without sounding like a whiny brat or making them feel bad about not having been in touch (because I really don’t want to do that). At the best of times I tend to internalise my problems and don’t find it easy to talk about how I’m feeling (and these are not the best of times, believe me). The idea of just calling them up and telling them how I feel seems to be a bit pathetic and undignified, but I realise that doing nothing is also not likely to improve the situation.

And a supplementary question: how can I get over feeling angry, hurt and neglected about what has been going on? Because I really do — just writing it all out here has left me with a big lump in my throat.

Exiled

Dear Ex,

Pour yourself a glass of pinot (or root beer), call them up, and tell them what you just told me. Don’t whine. Don’t list. Just tell them you miss them, and you wish you could talk to them in more depth about what’s going on in your life, because sometimes you feel really isolated.

And then listen, because their various understandings of the situation may differ markedly from yours. Your family doesn’t function as a single unit, obviously, but what they may perceive in varying degrees is that you moved 12 hours away, and stayed there for over a decade; that, when your mother tried to offer you support, you read it (possibly correctly) as interference or bossing, and told her to back off; that you don’t reach out to them much or show them much emotional support. I don’t know that this last bit is true, but your description of the “parental bail-outs” has A Tone to it, one that reads as resentment of the attention your sisters get from your parents as a matter of everyday course. They may get the sense, as I did, that you consider their “various dramas” beneath you, in part because they seek your parents’ help. You don’t, and the respect you expect for that choice hasn’t been forthcoming.

For years you’ve set yourself apart as The Independent One, I think, to the point of point-blank telling your mother not to treat you like a child; your sisters haven’t done the same, and on some level, you feel like they’re getting away with something — like your independence has had its price, one your siblings haven’t had to pay, and like nobody’s noticed what a great job you’ve done living your life without their help.

All that is completely normal and usual, and it doesn’t make you a bad person or a brat; it makes you a normal sibling trying to find her place in the constellation of the family. But again, they may see your role in the family — and all that that entails, whether it’s maternal succor, its buttinski flip side, or some combination of the two — as one you recused yourself from by leaving the country and not involving yourself in their lives. You know? Your attitude towards their “failed marriages, etc.” is dismissive, but you expect them to take an ongoing interest in the analogous “various dramas” on your side…that you haven’t even told them about, in some cases.

You’re not wrong to want more support from and involvement with your family, but you’ve got to give them a fair chance to do that, starting by owning your part in the situation as it stands currently, even if part of it is geographic and can’t be helped. And maybe think about how much of the geographic part really can’t be helped; ask yourself if, maybe, unconsciously, you really do want to be where you are, or somewhere just as far away, so that your life’s “degree of difficulty” is steeper than that of your sisters. Like I said, people do this without realizing it and sibling relationships are complicated; this isn’t about blaming yourself, but you will have to get to the bottom of the dynamic to change it for the better.

Look at your own role in things. Understand that what is “obvious” to you about your feelings may not read as clearly to them. Write a little script that clarifies those feelings to them and keeps everything in a positive from-now-on light, focusing on the relationship you’d like to have with them in the future and not on the mistakes everyone’s made to this point. And see how it goes. It’s hard to be the one who left, and it’s just as hard not to keep score on that, but I think that score-keeping is making you miserable. Time to change the game.

Hey Sars,

My fiancé and I finally tied the knot, went over spectacularly, a fantastic time was had by all, etc. etc. The only problem I have now is what to do with his grandmother’s gift: an absolutely enormous leather-bound, inscribed, fancy-ass Holy Bible, including a big wooden stand to put it on. Given to two atheists.

The backstory is that I’m pretty sure that his Catholic family is aware of our (lack of) religious beliefs. Although it seems to be something that just isn’t talked about — they’ve definitely not discussed it with me — I imagine that they got the picture considering we weren’t married in a church, there were zero references to religion, and the whole thing was presided over by a friend who got ordained on the internet. However, I have no idea if anyone mentioned the nature of this wedding to his grandmother before the fact, so I don’t know if this gift was given in misguided good faith or as a passive-aggressive dig.

She did include a very long, moving letter about how much her Bible meant to her when she got married and the beautiful home she was sure we’d create and that sort of thing, so it seems like a lovely sentimental gift that I hesitate to just re-gift or throw in a box, but what else do we do with it? I actually think parts of the Bible are interesting reading material, so I’d just put it on a shelf with our other 300 books, but that seems a little weird because this really isn’t a “pull off the shelf and leaf through it” edition. This is a massive, “build a shrine in your living room hey look I even included a pedestal for it” edition. (Also apparently the Super Catholic edition, she told us, which is the only thing that made me wonder if the gift was meant to be a little passive-aggressive, because I KNOW she knows my family is not Catholic.)

So basically, what’s the appropriate, respectful thing for two atheists to do with a gift like this? (And, out of curiosity, would it make any difference if I find out whether she really thought we were religious and could use it, or if she just wanted to force her beliefs on us?)

Maybe We Could Display It Ironically?

Dear Ironic,

It depends on how much room and/or storage you have in your home. If you have some attic space to play with, put the stand up there and shelve the Bible until Grandma comes to visit; then bust it out.

That may feel dishonest to you (or you may just not have the square footage to spare), in which case you can give the stand away to a church group or something, and shelve the Bible with your other books. You might consider giving it its own little spot on the shelf, so that it feels esteemed, but not too central.

I think what you really want to know is how to respond if she comments on whatever you choose to do with it. I’d go with a warm “we really appreciate the gift, and especially the thought; this is how we’ve chosen to incorporate it into our home, and we hope you’ll enjoy talking about the weather now.” Once a gift is given, how it’s used is pretty much out of the giver’s control, and it kind of doesn’t matter whether she assumed you shared her beliefs or she thought she could shame you into starting. You respect the wedding present, and the better intentions behind it, which is all she has the right to expect.

Share!
Pin Share


Tags:      

36 Comments »

  • Exiled says:

    Sars, you are impressively perceptive! I hadn’t even realised that I had A Tone about my parents’ support of my sisters, but you’re dead right: I have had – largely because (in my opinion) some of their problems have been compounded by the endless parental safety net. They haven’t had to live unsupported with the consequences of any of their actions, and so they’ve made some dumb choices over and over again. But I have done my level best to support them through them (as much as you can when living 12,000 miles away). I would move home in a heartbeat, though. Sadly, life isn’t that simple: my husband’s job doesn’t exist back home.

    Since I wrote my Vine letter three things have happened: 1. My job situation has miraculously sorted itself out; 2. My mother called me after reading a blog entry I wrote about the challenges of dealing with ‘unfixable’ problems; and 3. I’ve realised that I need to learn how to deal with my own stress and not expect other people to sort out my problems for me. So I’m seeing a counsellor from next week onwards.

    My conversation with my mother was fantastic. I didn’t play the blame game or anything like that, but I did tell her how hard I have found it to deal with my husband’s health and all the attendant worries and how I’ve felt like I’ve been doing it alone. And she explained that, because he isn’t yet disabled, she thought things were OK. And that makes sense in a lot of ways. I have never thought that my family were being deliberately neglectful: they just haven’t realised that this is a really shitty situation. And if I haven’t made that clear to people in the past, I can hardly blame them if they haven’t managed to figure it out unaided…

  • Wendy says:

    I’m shaking my head a little that everyone in the “Pulled Apart” situation is out of high school. Sheesh.

    I think it is a good illustration of the fact that you can’t both be totally open about all the drama of your relationship and then expect people to not have continued negative feelings toward the person who you told them was a cheating drug addict who treated you poorly. The letter writer gave all her friends and family many reasons why they should see any contact with Albert as risky. I think the letter writer just likes drama.

    It shouldn’t matter if Carla “wins”. Albert is no prize–there is no winning here.

  • MsC says:

    @Exiled: From experience I can say that sometimes distant family members just don’t get how serious a condition is until they’ve seen the effects. This may or may not be part of what’s going on with your family, but when my sister was younger she had a health problem. Our father lived across the continent and seemed to think my mother and I were just overblowing some minor thing, being ‘hysterical’, etc… Until my sister had an attack in his presence. Then he realized that it was, in fact, a big deal. I think sometimes even to people who think they understand ‘Bob has X’ is just theoretical until they see what X is doing to Bob.

    Speaking of Bob…. @Ex, I don’t mean to sound rude, but everyone involved in this situation is over 30, and you’re worried that Carla ‘wins’ if you don’t remain friends with a lying, cheating, drug addict? Bob may, reasonably, be worried that continuing to keep a toe in the swamp of Al and the fact that you consider this guy any kind of friend as warning signs that maybe you haven’t completely extricated yourself from Albert and his whole morass. While I wouldn’t be issuing that kind of ultimatum (unless Bob was your go-to guy for support shoulder through all this, then I might) I would be wondering what the hell was going through a friend’s mind if she stayed involved in any way, shape, or form with an ‘Albert’.

  • jive turkey says:

    Ironic: As a fellow atheist with a very Catholic (and on my husband’s side, Baptist) family, I totally feel you. I had a baby last year, and despite the obvious fact that we do not attend church and have never baptized our daughter, certain members of my family still give her religious gifts. It rankles, I admit, but I know they just see these gifts as meaningful, not as personal irritants to me and my views on religion. From the letter she included, it sounds like Grandma didn’t have any hidden religious agenda in giving you guys the Bible, she was just trying to pass on a tradition of sorts. With my family, it seems like religious relatives (especially older ones) give these kinds of gifts because they are genuinely unclear about my religious views, and figure that deep down I really am Baptist/Catholic/whatever and that “someday” I’ll appreciate it and use it. I agree with Sars — keep the Bible, bust it out when she visits or just have it there on the shelf. It is your husband’s grandmother’s wedding gift to you — no matter how Vegas-Jesus-y it might be.

    And because I just happened to watch “A Very Brady Sequel” over the weekend (don’t ask), I have to include this Mike Brady quote, because it’s been running through my head ever since:
    “A gift is only a good thing when the giver has given thought to that gift. But when the gift the giver gives gives grief, then that gift should give the givee regrets.” Hee.

  • Alison says:

    I’m sorry, but Bob sounds like a complete douche. Depending that another adult de-friend someone, giving her a deadline to do it, and threatening to take his toys and go home if she doesn’t? Totally separate from what you should do about Albert, you should also tell Bob to screw off.

  • Jen S 1.0 says:

    “Albert” is going to be my new shorthand for “Thing/Person fought over, but not worth winning.” “Did you watch Real Housewives last night? That moron was a total Albert.”

    You have a lot of drama here, @Ex, and I have a feeling you like having it there–you’re over watching the Albert Show, but you still follow the posts at TWoP, as it were. Yes, you no longer date him, but you can still get those little frission hits from thinking about Carla “winning” this worthless tremendouche, or Bob Issuing an Ultimatim about Your Involvement.

    There’s just enough “real” problem to coat the need for speed here–a freind is going to worry that you’re not as out of it as you should be when you have any contact with a prize like Al–but let’s face it, both you and Bob (and possibly Al and Carla) don’t really give a mouse-size shit over whether you defriend him or not; you’re just enjoying the manufactured zing of fighting over his electrons.

    Tell Bob that you’re sure he means well, but to tend his own little garden, and block Al and Carla. Never think of their worthless lives again. If they try to refreind you, ignore them. Everyone in this scenario needs a new, non-highschool hobby.

  • Annie in TX says:

    I really get Ironic’s situation. My family is VERY religious and conservative, my husband’s family is nominally Protestant, and we’re both atheists. My parents are aware of this, and fortunately they don’t press the issue. I have a few bibles that were given to me over the years, including one that has my name engraved in the cover. I’ve kept all of them, but they’re in a box in my closet.

    If I needed to pull one out and put it on the shelf to avoid a huge showdown with an elderly relative, I would. I probably wouldn’t go through the pretense of fabricating a whole shrine for it with the stand, because that seems more deliberately dishonest. “I own this” vs “I display this proudly.” It’s possible that the only solution Grandma truly would find acceptable is total religious conversion, but hey, Grandma is free to quietly pray for a miracle.

    On the flip side, we have a handful of books that I pull off the shelves and stow in my nightstand whenever my family is coming over because I don’t want drama. I actually hide fewer of them than I used to, as we’ve all gotten used to how we’re allowed to live our own lives. But my folks have huge issues with sex and nudity (how they had four kids is beyond me), so they don’t necessarily need to eat dinner next to a shelf with art books of naughty vintage pinups and pulp covers with semi-salacious titles.

  • AT says:

    @Ironic- In the event you’re planning to have kids- you could look at it as a kind of future heirloom (with letter included). Whether or not they want to explore religion on their own, they may think it’s neat and see it as a connection to the past and their father’s family history.

  • ferretrick says:

    @Ironic: I think I’d donate it to a poorer church and go with a little passive aggressive behavior of my own when she asks. Tell her that Jesus said to pray in secret, so what you did with it is a secret. That might not be the best solution for keeping cordial relations though.

  • Serene says:

    @ Pull-Oy Facebook! Everyone seems to have a different attitude or opinion about the “friends” concept. Personally I don’t friend someone unless I actually interact with them. I know a lot of people don’t care who sees their info or what they put up and also with all the privacy settings you can have whole sets of “friends” who can’t see your wall and what not but in your situation I think Sars is dead on with her advice.

    I’m also friends with people I’ve dated, but only the ones where the relationship (as it currently stands) is a healthy one. I don’t mind that they know what I’m up to and if they contacted me through fb to say let’s get coffee or just to ask how I’m doing it wouldn’t bother me. I am not however friends with all of my exs. My reasons for that are in some cases, like yours, the relationship itself was god awful and (for me) being friends with them feels as though I’m saying, ‘hey, you treated me like crap and that’s ok!’

    I also defriended an ex and like you worried for a moment that it would be seen as childish. I had to first ask myself why I was keeping them around. Was it because I wanted to be able to check up on them and any perceived rivals? Sure was. And that was not healthy for me emotionally. I think also, unlike in your situation, I worried that by defriending them I’d lose whatever chance (delusionally slim as it was) of rekindling the relationship. I mean honestly, I didn’t want to be friends, I wanted my relationship back, the friend thing made me feel like a starving puppy begging for scraps (all on me and also not emotionally healthy).

    So basically all of my reasons for being friends were retarded ones and at the time it was preventing me from moving forward and feeling good about myself. Looking back, it was one of the best decisions I could have made.

    It seems to me that the reasons you are keeping Albert around aren’t very good ones from an emotional standpoint. But I swear, if one of my so called friends had given me an ultimatum like Bob I would have had a come to jesus talk with them and then been tempted to stay friends with the ex just to spite them.

  • BillDozer74 says:

    @Ex:

    First, I think the fact that you’re treating these social networking sites as Serious Business is a pretty good sign that you need to step away from the computer for a while.

    Also:

    I did delete him once from my social networking friend list, but he became my “friend” on it again.

    The wording of this sentence stood out for me. It seems to be implying that the “friending” was completely out of your control. The “friending” couldn’t have occurred without your approval. So, why did you re-add Albert after deleting him once?

    Block (not just de-friend) Albert and Carla. This will keep them from sending you other friend requests, and at least on Facebook, will keep you from seeing their profiles as well.

    As for Bob, although the petty side of me would be tempted to de-friend him out of spite, I think the best response here is none at all. To paraphrase a line from Arrested Development, he should take some time to sit back and think about how ridiculous he sounds.

  • Leia says:

    @Ironic – I would also keep Grandma’s letter with the Bible. Does your fiance have cousins? If you the two of you don’t have family to pass the Bible onto (or you do, but then they don’t express any interest), it may be have family value to pass back to other family members. Its not that everyone has to keep everything Grandma gives them, but this sounds like it might have general family value. But the letter will give it the relevent value.

    If you don’t want to display it or plop it on the shelf, you could wrap it up in some acid free paper and store it in an archival box (or double check on websites about storing books, etc–don’t take my word on it). As Sars says, break it out for Grandma visits or “Its so nice, we don’t want it sitting out and getting dusty.”

    As for the stand…find out if its contemporary to the Bible? Or picked up recently? Maybe its a nice piece of antique furniture itself? Maybe you could keep “book of the week” on it.

  • BillDozer74 says:

    D’oh!! My last comment was for “Pulled Apart”, not “Ex”. Serves me right for not double-checking. My apologies.

  • J says:

    @Ex: Though there’s not a whole lot to go on here in the letter, Bob’s ultimatum seems like a variation on what my friends and I used to refer to as “Stanford Blatch-ing” the situation, as in from some episode of SATC where Stanford tells Carrie she has X long to stop talking about Big, because he’s heard it all before . It could be that Bob’s a busybody, but I think it’s also possible he’s had E. NOUGH. with this situation. I mean, he’s right to question, as BillDozer74 pointed out – you don’t passively become someone’s friend on Facebook, and though his ultimatum isn’t the best way to go about it, if he’s a good friend, it might just be coming from a good place.

  • J says:

    Damn reading comprehension fail: I, too, meant for Pull. Never copy the kid next to you at school ;)

  • iiii says:

    @Ironic – personally, I’d shelve the bible (with the letter tucked in at Exodus 20:12) and use the stand for my atlas.

  • Isis Uptown says:

    I don’t pay much attention to who my friends are friends with on Facebook. Except that I know my husband and I have lots of friends in common (more that half of my total friends list), and my (adult) son and I also have lots of friends in common (though only about half of the number that I have in common with my husband), I don’t always know who is friends with whom.

    Two days ago, my husband said “What do you think is up with Jim?” I didn’t know what he meant until he said “He un-friended us.” It would have taken me a long, long time to notice that!

    But, yeah, pulled, de-friend and block Albert, don’t worry if Bob de-friends you, and if you want drama, watch a movie.

  • autiger23 says:

    @Exiled- it sounds like you are good to go, but as another person far from home with siblings that are very close to home, I found that all three of mine viewed my leaving as if I was desparate to get away from them. It took many years before I heard about it, and it was never guilt trippy, just off-hand mentions, but they are somewhat hurt by my not being around. They took it personally, like I left because I didn’t like them or something. Far from it- it’s just not an environment I enjoy living in. I always visited often, but it seems to not make a difference in them feeling better about it.

    I just mention it because your own siblings may have similar feelings, and it could be having some kind of an effect on your relationship. It helps that you don’t have a choice about moving back, but I have that to an extent, too, and it doesn’t really seem to matter.

  • Casey says:

    @Ironic- Is it pretty; would you display it if it was Shakespeare or something? To me, if you are an atheist then the Bible is just a book. If you like it, display it- if you don’t then put it where bad gifts from treasured people go to die (usually the hall closet in my experience.)

    I guess what I’m saying is- it doesn’t matter what the gift is to her, what is it to you?

  • Meg says:

    @Ironic : It could just be that that particular gift is what she sees as the most valued present to give for a wedding. (I still give Mass cards for sympathy when someone’s relative dies — it’s just what’s done, I don’t know what else to give.) I would put something else on the stand — if it’s that massive, you should be able to put a bunch of cookbooks or dictionaries or something on it — and just swap them out for the Bible if you know she’s coming over. If she asks, you can tell her that you usually store the Bible elsewhere so it doesn’t get damaged, since you don’t use it daily. Even if it turns out it was a passive-aggressive present, you’d be showing that you appreciate her efforts to give you an appropriate wedding gift, and that’s what’s important.

  • amacampbell says:

    @Ironic As a fellow atheist, I get the whole “I’m a non-believer” thing. But maybe you’re putting too much on the fact that it’s a bible. If grandma gave you the family copy of “Leaves of Grass”, you probably wouldn’t be saying, “but we don’t read Victorian-era poetry!” You would appreciate the gift as a family heirloom. Try to view it this way. The letter was about making a home and you should accept it as such. This bible was probably a major purchase for a newly-married couple and she’s handing you an important piece of her history. She clearly values both of you as members of the family. Take the “bible” out of the whole picture, and it would be a gift that most couples would be thrilled to receive.

    I know there are times you may feel that other people are pushing their beliefs on you or that people think you’ll change your mind, but I don’t think the way to go is to push back too hard. Treat other religions with respect and (with luck) they will treat your lack of such with respect as well. I’ve mellowed over the years on my end. I realize that if I’m confindent in what I believe, I can sort of shrug off what other folks are dishing. A cross hanging on a wall, someone wearing a veil, anything like that, it’s not going to rub off any more than my lack of belief will rub off on them.

  • RC says:

    @ IRONIC
    If my grandmother had given me THE family Bible when we got married, I would have been overjoyed. Every birth, death, marriage, graduation, important events, even serious illnesses were recorded there. It is detailed,mostly forgotten family history. Even though I have no religious feelings about the book, I would have very warm feelings about that book. If she had given me a different Bible, with places to record things, I would still have seen it as a gift to continue family history. On the other hand, an aunt did give me a new Bible when I graduated from college with a curious note about hoping we could become closer through the Bible, and I had no interest; I felt manipulated. No idea how I would feel about a giant wooden stand, since I don’t have a chapel in our house. At the moment, I wonder if it could be handy for holding a cookbook. Try to remember what the Bible may have meant to your grandmother; based on her note, i think she was trying to be thoughtful. That doesn’t mean you should create a chapel for it.

  • DrSue says:

    When I got married 5 years ago, one of my aunts on my father’s side (who I don’t know very well, my dad had 9 siblings and I didn’t see them often growing up) gave me a decorative “redneck” or “hillbilly” 10 commandments plaque. It was actually cute, (no killin’, no cussin’ etc.), but I am an athiest and my husband is agnostic. His family is all mormon, and neither of us want any kind of religious “decorations” in our house. I gave the plaque to my Catholic mother since there are all sorts of crosses and whatnot in her house.

    It is doubtful that my aunt will ever visit me here, but if she did and she ever asked about it, I would absolutely be honest and explain that we don’t display that kind of thing, and that I gave it to someone who would appreciate it.

    It’s not exactly the same thing, and I think if someone had given me a gift like yours, it would be in a closet or under my bed, because even if it is not my idea of an ideal gift, it seems heartfelt. I am a soft touch for things like that, even if it is a little passive aggressive (which you are not sure it was anyway). I don’t know what I would do with the stand, though. Maybe a BIG dictionary or as someone else mentioned, a nice atlas.

  • Dawn says:

    Ironic, I’m with the others on letting go of the skepticism toward G’ma (maybe she’s being passive-aggressive, maybe not – but do you really want to live your life with such a constantly high level of suspicion about the motives of others?). The bible is a wonderful history text, if nothing else so keep it on the shelf with the letter tucked inside. As for the stand, do you have a big dictionary perhaps? Mine is on the shelf and I wish I had a stand for it (and a place to put said stand) because it’s too big and heavy to bring down to look things up when dictionary.com just won’t do.

  • Wendalette says:

    Ironic,

    If this is a new bible and not a family heirloom being passed down, and if it has all those pages in the middle for recording the births and deaths etc., then perhaps it’s worth keeping just for that purpose alone. After all, when people start looking up info about their family trees, one of the first places anyone is told to look is in “the family bible.” it seems appropriate for that kind of thing anyway since the bible is full of “begats” and genealogy itself.

    You don’t need to display it of course (unless it has kick-@ss artwork you appreciate and could leave it open to), and I doubt that g’ma would care if you used the stand for something else, just as long as she knows you “have” her gift to you, even if you never read it (which I’m sure she knows you won’t).

    Additionally, I’m thinking that you can look at it as her sharing something important of herself with you and a reminder of where hubby came from, that is, a physical sign of ancestry to be used as a heirloom to pass down. I hope that made sense.

    I say all this only applies as long as the book itself or the idea of it isn’t offensive to you and/or you are indifferent to its contents. Otherwise, I got nothing as then it’s up to you to figure out how discarding it might affect the family dynamic and whether you want to deal with its possible ramifications.

  • The Other Katherine says:

    @amacampbell, I don’t think the bible given in this case was a family heirloom – it was just a large, expensive Catholic edition with engraving. The aunt’s letter was about how much about how much *her* bible meant to her when she got married, not about how much this particular bible meant. (But I agree with your comments otherwise.)

  • Dani says:

    @ferretrick I’m not sure why @ironic would respond that passive-agressively, especially since it isn’t clear the gift was meant that way.

    I think it would be nice to check with local churchs/if you have any seminaries in your area. I’m not sure what makes a Bible specifically Catholic, I didn’t think they had their own translation like the Mormons, but for those who are in the religious field, it would be an awesome addition to an office or a study.

    Pulled, I’m willing to be your friends are fed up with Albert and all of the drama surrounding him. If Bob hasn’t issued ultimatums before, maybe you should consider if your behavior is healthy. You don’t need to let the ex or the former friend hold any part of your brain anymore. Block them, move one, and don’t let drama run your life anymore.

  • Wehaf says:

    @Dawn: “..but do you really want to live your life with such a constantly high level of suspicion about the motives of others?”

    As an “out” atheist, I can attest that this suspicion is well-warranted; I get a lot of crap, much of it passive-aggressive, from believers. It’s frustrating and tiring, and it is easy to get tired of being given Bibles. Like, yeah, the only reason I’m an atheist is that I never had access to a Bible before. *rolls eyes* I’m not saying the grandmother in question was being passive-aggressive, just that being openly atheistic changes the way many people act towards one, so naturally it changes the way one views other people.

    @Ironic: Fancy books can be kept on shelves and leafed through, just like regular books. I’d just throw it up there with the other chunky texts you have, and don’t worry about it. If you have a use for the stand you can keep it, but otherwise sell it or give it to a school or something.

  • robin says:

    @ Ironic,
    I agree with all the posts suggesting that you keep the Bible on a bookshelf or store it away, and re-use the stand. I have relatives who keep a big bookstand in their dining room with an unabridged dictionary on it, very handy. As a regular churchgoer, I can tell you that most Christians don’t put every Bible on a pedestal at home, they get kept on bookshelves or nightstands or desks where they’ll be used for study, not display. So. If I were the recipient of the stand, I would use it for whatever I’m reading right now, like maybe the TV guide or a knitting pattern book. Perhaps you’d care to display Darwin’s Origin of Species? Or something by Carl Sagan? How about your local phone directory, placed near the home telephone?
    Also, Grandma won’t live forever. Once she’s gone (may that be years and years away) you can get rid of the Bible if it still bugs you. I also like the idea of passing it over to some other member of the family if they’re interested.

  • @ Pulled – I’d block Albert, and hide my friends list from Bob…

  • Kathryn says:

    In reference to Sars’ line: “…and we hope you’ll enjoy talking about the weather now.”

    Hee hee hee! You’ve now provided the perfect response in so MANY situations.

  • Jennifer M. says:

    @Dani & Ironic,

    A Catholic bible has additional books (around 8) in the Old Testament that are not included in Protestant bibles (they consider them apocryphal). In addition, it contains 1 & 2 Maccabees which contain the story of Hannukah (lamp oil lasting 7 days, etc), these are two books that I believe are not actually a part of the Torah. I’m a very liberal UU, but I use my bibles (I was a religion major so I have various translations) all the time to look up literary references and so forth. Like you said, the bible is interesting reading, full of genocide and incest. So keep it on the book shelf as a useful reference book.

  • Thomasina says:

    Since there’s nothing in Ironic’s letter to indicate that the bible has family or heirloom significance, and since the size of it seems to render it useless as a reference book or leisure reading, I suggest donating it to a place that would appreciate it more. You could donate it to a church or Christian organization that (despite your atheism) does some form of charity work or activism you approve of (for instance, DignityUSA, a Catholic organization that “envisions and works for a time when Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Catholics are affirmed and experience dignity through the integration of their spirituality with their sexuality, and as beloved persons of God participate fully in all aspects of life within the Church and Society.”). Or you could go a different way and give it to a local theater group that is looking for props. Who knows; perhaps you will see the bible again in a production of “Agnes of God” or “Doubt”!

  • Grainger says:

    @Thomasina: I agree. If it’s a gift that wasn’t requested, and it’s a new-bought thing that hasn’t got any family history, then go ahead and pass it along.

    Heck, which would be better–putting it in a box in the bottom of the junk closet and feeling vaguely guilty about it once or twice a year? Or giving it to someone who would actually use it?

    And you don’t need to make a big deal to Grandma. Don’t bring it up unless she asks, and if she does just say what you did. “We’re happy for the sentiment but we aren’t really Bible readers, so we donated it to Saint Helen Of The Blessed Shroud Orphanage, because we figured that was better than keeping it in a closet forever.”

  • Jennifer says:

    @Pulled – do you think maybe the reason you can’t find web advice for your ‘problem’ is that it’s not really a problem? One of the glorious things about being an adult is that you can do what you want to do, without justifying it to anyone, just because you want to.

    So, if you want to be friends with Albert (which I don’t get, but whatever), then let him stay on your list and own that choice to Bob and anyone else who wants to criticize. Maybe Bob really has your best interest at heart and is trying to intervene on your behalf or maybe Bob is a controlling weirdo. We don’t know and there is no way we can know. YOU know, so use that knowledge to help inform your choice. If you think Bob has a point, then unfriend Albert and for god’s sake, get over the idea that this would be letting Carla win. Leave Carla out of it. If you truly think that being friends with Albert is harmless, then tell that to Bob, stand by your decision and accept that you can’t please everyone and should quit trying.

    And here’s some advice you didn’t ask for. In reading your letter, I am reminded of a former friend of mine (in meatspace, not virtual space). Former because I finally realized that her life’s narrative was nothing but a litany of drama and victimization, with a stunning absence of insight or interest in making concrete improvements. By the time I met her she had arrived at late middle age with very little to show for her time on earth but a history of failed relationships, jobs that ‘didn’t work out’ and a very bleak outlook for the next few decades. Try to look outside the petty drama and find some purpose. Or, if you have already found purpose, try to spend more time focusing on it, and less time on stupid crap like your friend list. Really.

  • Emmers says:

    Re: Bible – I would put the Bible on a bookshelf in the guest bedroom, and get a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary and put *that* on the wooden stand. I consider this to be an AWESOME solution.

Leave a comment!

Please familiarize yourself with the Tomato Nation commenting policy before posting.
It is in the FAQ. Thanks, friend.

You can use these tags:
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>