The Vine: May 9, 2012
I am a longtime reader and have honestly found myself in an anxiety-creating moral pickle (so to speak…though being in a literal moral pickle might be rather nice!).
Here is the short version: I was in a relationship with someone for two years. In that time, I helped him get settled in NYC, let him stay with me rent-free until he found an apartment, lent him my furniture and paid for every date. This isn’t relevant, but we are both young gay men. I did these things because I have a well-paying job and my boyfriend did not.
However, when I lost my job, my boyfriend picked up some of the slack and paid for my rent for a few months and bills, etc. A few months later, we broke up. It was both of our faults, but he technically broke up with me. I let him have our shared apartment and most of the furniture.
Over a year has passed, and now he wants me to pay him back for the rent he insisted on paying for me so I wouldn’t be stressed about losing my job. It was an incredibly sweet gesture, and I would love to pay him back, but I am still on unemployment and owe a dear friend almost two thousand dollars after a sleazy landlord milked me out of my security and last month’s rent. I feel like that debt should be tended to first, and when I land a job I can pay back the money my ex feels I owe him. But all of my friends say that I don’t owe him a thing because what happens in a relationship stays in the relationship. Are relationships like Vegas?
Perplexed and in a pickle
Dear Pickle,
I’d say this one is more like the Yukon, because your ex’s shit is cold. Heh.
…Okay, seriously: I agree with your friends, mostly, for a few reasons. First, you had already basically done the same for him and not expected any formal repayment. Granted, the circumstances were somewhat different; the relationship was in a happier place, “staying with” is more amorphous in terms of assigning it a dollar value than “paying the rent for,” blah blah blah. But that would seem to have evened things up between you, as far as one partner taking care of the other financially — not put you in a hole.
Second, he ended the relationship. This is a technicality; the fact that he’s occupying the apartment you shared and using the furniture you jointly purchased (I assume) is not.
And lastly, yeah, I’d have to say that, within a relationship, fiscal arrangements or trades of this type work the same way as they do among family members: you don’t spend or lend any money you expect to get back. And if you do expect to get it back, you formalize its status as a loan, with a letter and a repayment schedule that you both sign. I have done it with boyfriends several times, going in either direction, and it might sound unromantic or distrustful, but nothing kills trust (or a boner) like one partner seething over an interpretation or an unspoken timeline involving money. It’s so much better just to take that off the table permanently — and obviously you don’t have to notarize every single side table or take-out order. But if it’s thousands of dollars and you can anticipate it causing an issue, put it in writing.
You didn’t do that, which is fine, most people don’t, live and learn. But by the same token, you…didn’t do that. So, I don’t know if Ex has legal standing here; he can ask you to pay him back, or passive-aggressively let you know that he thinks you should; I don’t know whether he can compel it without going to small claims, at which time presumably you could point out that he lived with you rent-free, has all your chairs, and so on.
That said, when I say “mostly” up at the top there, it’s because I don’t know the dollar figures involved. If “bills, etc.” is ten grand in trips to Rio or something, it’s probably appropriate for you to ask him to name a reasonable figure; to sign off, in writing, on that figure; and to let him know that you’ll repay that agreed-on figure after you get a job and address the other debt to your friend.
Again, I don’t know the legalities here, but if all you’re asking me is, “Should he just let the shit go and move on?” then yes, I think he should. You don’t have the money in the second place, and even if you did, unless it’s thousands of dollars that he couldn’t spare (and evidently he could, at the time), writing it off as the cost of relationships and moving on is his best move.
Tags: boys (and girls) budget 'n' finance
He got the apartment and furniture. He isn’t owed the dough. Period.
I suspect that you’re a fair-minded person, pickle, and I also suspect that your ex is exploiting that because he suspects it’ll work. But: Apartment/Furniture. Paid in full. Pound sand, ex!
I agree that what’s done is done and you shouldn’t owe him anything.
However, It matters to know what are the percentages involved. If you spent XXX supporting him and he spent XXXXXX supporting you, well, maybe he has a point. But if you both spent XXX on the other plus he got all the furniture, he doesn’t deserve anything.
You say he insisted on paying your rent when you lost your job. To me that implies that you offered to pay (or pay him back), because otherwise why would he have had to “insist”? Sounds like he had an earlier opportunity to lay claim to the money, and didn’t, so you’re in the clear.
I have to say, I read this and thought “Ouch, he’s [the ex, not the letter-writer] kind of a jerk.” The apartment and furniture should make you even, in my opinion, particularly since he lived with you rent-free for a time. Of course I don’t know what the dollar amounts are, but the whole exchange strikes me as cold.
That said, I just started seeing someone who ended a VERY long-term relationship and he apparently loaned/gave her an undisclosed sum of money, and it’s something he mentioned when talking about why the relationship ended. He doesn’t expect the money back and did not ask for it, but I think it sort of bugged him to write it off.
One thing that strikes me as strange about this story is that the party that technically did the breaking up is now asking for something to square-up the relationship. Doesn’t a breaker-upper usually just want to wash their hands of the relationship? I see no reason why you should owe him anything, and I’m surprised that you would “love to pay him back”. I suspect that there is something about the circumstances of this break-up not related to the rent money that has left your ex feeling owed somehow, and you feeling you owe him something.
Paying him this money would be doing the wrong thing.
Unless you WANT to stay friends with him, WANT him to go on “liking” you now that you’re not together, or think that this would negatively impact you in any way socially (I know the gay community can be pretty tight/cliquey), then please, do yourself a favor and DO NOT PAY HIM.
He would not have asked you to “repay” this money, had you gone on living together. He only wants this money because you are no longer together. The (presumably loving) reasons he had for paying your rent have been replaced with the thoughts of what else he could have spent this money on.
Legally, you have no obligation to him *unless* you’ve stated in writing that you consider it to be a debt. In small claims court, a text message or email saying “I will pay you” can be seen as acknowledgement of debt. However, since you were unemployed at the time, even if your arrangement was “I’ll pay you back when I can” (which we know it wasn’t)… you still can’t! Contracts like this can’t be legally recognized unless the lender had some anticipation of being repaid. You can’t exactly anticipate an unemployed person to come up with money. How are they going to do that?
If you were in a good financial place, you could have a long philosophical conversation about what to do. You’re not in that position, so the decision should be easy: do what’s fair for you.
My friend “Gigi” was going through some hard times a couple months ago so I loaned her a couple bucks. She swore she would pay me back in a week – I told her if she needed to take longer, that was okay. It was a loan, I could afford it, she promised to pay me back, and she did (promptly). “Betsy” offered Gigi some money during this time too and Gigi accepted it, saying she would pay Betsy back immediately. Betsy said no, it was a gift, not a loan. Not to mention, Gigi had helped Betsy out previously when Betsy was in a bind so it was kind of “even” between them now. Gigi kept insisting on it being a loan, Betsy kept saying no. Fast forward to when the two have a falling out and suddenly Betsy starts trash talking Gigi, saying Gigi owes her money. She even went so far as to ask ME to get the money from Gigi. I told her I was staying out of it. Gigi and I had no problem with our exchange – we said it was a loan and she paid it back. Betsy told Gigi her support was a gift but as soon as things turned sour, she changed her tune. The point is, Gigi is a good person who repays loans, while Betsy started crying foul once the friendship was severed. It’s possible that Pickle’s ex intended the financial support to be a gift while the relationship was in tact, but now that it’s not, he’s crying foul because he’s a big baby.
Another example: I used to date “Doofus” and he’d let me drive his Jeep all the time. One day, on my way to work, someone ran a red light and hit me. My first thought, upon opening my eyes after the initial crash was, “Holy crap, is the car okay?” It wasn’t, of course, and needed some big repairs. While discussing it with Doofus he assured me, many times, “It’s okay, that’s what insurance is for.” He never asked me for money, he told me insurance was taking care of it. All good, right? We happened to break up and a couple months later we run into each other at court regarding the traffic citation for the accident – suddenly Doofus is asking me for money. I reminded him of all the times he said, “Don’t worry, that’s what insurance is for!” That shut him up. Again, the point is people will do wonderfully nice things when they’re in a relationship but they expect those favors to suddenly become due at the end of the relationship. And that’s just b.s.
I don’t think he has a leg to stand on. If it was me I would probably take the time to write an account of the dollar values that went back and forth in the two years, and chances are it will show that you paid more when you had the good job, because you could. But now you cannot…so it’s extra caddish of him to ask that you be indebted to him now that he’s dumped you. Personally I would tell him no and wait to see if he tried to take you to small claims court. I’m terribly sorry about your loss of cash from the landlord, and I hope you find a great new job soon.
While I think it’s important to spell out financial stuff in a new relationship, I also know it’s hard. The fact that your ex didn’t try to do so at the time makes me feel that he’s not entitled now. Agree with Sars, live and learn.
Agree in particular with Georgia WRT the fact that he’s had earlier opportunities to let you know that repayment was expected, and now IMO it’s too late. If he did not say at the time that it was a loan, then I think it’s too bad, so sad for him.
I’m not a lawyer, but as far as I know, legally, an engagement ring is about the only gift you get to request back upon breakup, because that is a *conditional* gift (and an engagement ring specifically, and not any other expensive baubles, even round ones with rocks in them. Unless it was accompanied by a proposal that was accepted, it’s just a ring).
Everything else is just a plain old gift, and once it’s given, it’s the property of the recipient to do with as they please. That includes money, and that especially includes money that you didn’t specify was a loan. If he wanted it back, he needed to say at a bare minimum something like, “I’m happy to help you out with rent until you get back on your feet. We can work out repayment later.” If he ever said anything along those lines, he’s got a point … but if not, welp, suckage for him.
It also takes a special kind of prick to ask for the money back a year after the breakup AND after you sauntered away from an unemployed boyfriend WITH the house and the furniture. THAT’LL be on his karma. Be glad you’re not dating him any more.
Without more details, I don’t think you owe him anything (especially since he got the apartment & furniture). If there were conversations about paying anyone back, or if the amount he paid was thousands of dollars more than you did, then I can see it being a grey area. But this is what happens in serious relationships sometimes. You paid for him for awhile, he paid for you for awhile, and then you broke up. I think it’s pretty brazen for him to ask at all.
Since you don’t specify “Ex offered to LOAN me the money,” I assume he never called it a loan. So ignoring the legalities in favor of real-life-itude, that was a gift. If you give someone something without saying, “And I expect you to pay me back,” it’s a gift. It’s ridiculous for him to come around later and say “Well, now that we’re broken up, I want my generous gift back.” If it had been a piece of jewelry or a vacation, you wouldn’t think twice that you ought to give it back. And it’s really no different that it is what it is.
Over a year has passed? Sounds like either he’s bitter about the relationship and is just doing this to be a prick or he needs money and this is his way of getting it. Ignore him.
Wow, between this and your sleazy ex-landlord I feel for you. I hope everything works out and you get a great job, Pickle!
Everybody has already commented on the practical points. Here’s the meta personality stuff I see: you are strong. He is not. You can take someone in and help them out and support them, and then be unemployed and STILL walk away, because you know yourself and have the strength. He sounds kind of controlling, doesn’t like that he can’t control you, and kind of wants to be you. So, he shows up a year later with a horseshit claim.
Fneh. So not worth the aggro. Like everybody said, get the amounts on paper (with dates; e.g. “February 2010 rent”) and just have it for your records in case he presses. Then spend more time with these other friends of yours who sound like they treat you the way you should be treated.
I agree with everyone who says your ex is being a jerk. You helped each other out equally. You’re even, you owe him nothing.
Also, I know how hard it is to be unemployed and owe people money. I am employed again, but I owe my parents several thousand dollars (which I am paying back over time; but to be clear, in our case it was always understood that I would pay back every cent when I could, unlike in your situation, where you helped each other out without strings attached… or at least, that’s what you had the right to believe!!!).
BTW, if you’re having a rough time finding a new job, try looking for volunteer work while you job search. It helps your resume stay current!
Hope all works out well for you!
Yeah, Pickle, your ex does not deserve to be paid. It’s not “paid back”, because it sounds like you two kept it pretty Even Steven during the relationship, but also like that relationship was a balance sheet, with both of you recording hits and rebounds and making sure nothing tipped too far.
Coming back a year later out of the blue and asking for “payback” under these circumstances? It seems a) cold, b) desperate, or c) manipulative. And asking it of an unemployed ex just seems especially douchy.
Unless there’s something huge you’re leaving out of your letter, I’d say walk away, this balance sheet has no end.
Pickle, has it occurred to you that ex may be using the money issue to keep you tied to him in some way? Maybe he’s not over you…
Tread lightly, I say.
I agree with the bulk of the posters who think that Ex is being a jerk and that Pickle shouldn’t pay him, for multiple reasons.
The thing that is super weird about this to me is the time lag. Even if you accept the idea of calling in relationship debt once the relationship ends, most people wouldn’t wait a year to do it, especially since the letter reads as though Pickle and Ex aren’t particularly friends. Something fishy is going on with Ex. Drug or gambling problem, maybe? My hunch is that a normal person wouldn’t pull this kind of stunt unless desperation had really thrown off his/her moral compass.
OK, I’ll stop it with the irresponsible speculation.
I think it’s ridiculous that he’s asking you to pay him back when you’re still unemployed. You literally don’t have the money to do it in the first place, for crying out loud. It seems like an extra kick in the balls to ask for it now.
While I don’t disagree with the prevailing “You don’t owe him” theory, I was wondering if there’s a chance that he has himself fallen on financial hard times. That might make me feel more kindly about the situation, and I might even be willing to send him some money–not as a payment toward the loan, which I’d explicitly state I don’t recognize as a loan–but as a gift to help out as he had given me.
And if he’s too insulted to keep the money on those terms, then he wasn’t that hard up anyway.
Dear everyone,
This is Perplexed and in a pickle! Thank you so much for all of your words of wisdom! What I have come to realize is that a year of buying almost everything from groceries/household necessities to movie tickets, the furnishing our entire apartment with the exception of his paying for half of the couch, every cab ride and even paying the movers to move him from his old apartment to our new one is easily equal to if not more than what he says I owe him. Which was just a few months of rent and bills (and our rent was only 1250). What the weirdest part is that after receiving the e-mail stating he wanted me to pay him back (our plan was the normal, nebulous when you [I] get a job you can for things, we are a couple and couples are there for each other), I never heard back from him. So, last I heard he was tabulating and we were going to meet for coffee to discuss. But, it seems like maybe with the ending of the relationship (which I wanted to save) and his keeping the apartment and ALL of the furnishings we are even steven. Is that what everyone is saying?
Thanks so much!