The Vine: August 26, 2009
Hey Sars,
I have an ex-boyfriend question for you. I’ll try to sum up as well as possible.
I dated my ex-boyfriend off and on since we were teenagers, then seriously for 5 1/2 years. We broke up 6 years ago. To say he was an asshole would be the understatement of the year. He treated me like shit, he cheated on me, and I stuck around and took it because I “loved him” or whatever-the-hell. When we finally broke up for really-reals-no-I-mean-it-this-time-seriously, it was ugly. We haven’t spoken to each other since, and have only seen each other at social events once or twice.
Apparently, the girlfriend he had after me had a bit of a calming influence on him, and got him to seek help in the form of therapy. From there, he was diagnosed bipolar and has since been on medication. My initial reaction upon hearing this was, “Oh, they have a pill to fix ‘asshole’?” Seriously, this guy was such a tool, I have no idea why I stuck around so long.
What’s prompting this is that recently I got an email from a mutual friend, stating that he wants to talk to me to apologize for, well, whatever he feels the need to apologize for. I’m torn as to what I should do about this. My initial reaction was, “Fuck you, I don’t owe you shit.”
But now my curiosity is getting the better of me. I still harbor a lot of resentment and anger towards him. There is the potential that I could achieve some sort of release or closure or pick-your-cliché. There is also the potential that it’s a load of crap and he’s just trying to get back in my pants.
My friends so far are split pretty evenly between talk to him/don’t talk to him. And I’m having a hard time making up my mind one way or the other. One idea I had is to set up a temporary email address, and if he wants to say something, he can say it in email. I mean, it’s not like he couldn’t find me if he wanted to. I just don’t want to open myself up to his manipulations any more than I have to in order to satisfy my curiosity on the subject. I was never able to think very clearly when it came to him, so a face-to-face meeting is completely out of the question.
What’s your take, Oh Clear-Headed One? Should I give this prick the time of day? Or just drop it like a hot rock and move on?
(Oh, and feel free to edit out my profanity as you see fit. I’m a vulgar bitch.)
Sincerely,
Once bitten, twice shy, three times a lady
Dear Lady,
It’s one of those situations where you have to assess what you want out of it, and then how likely it is that you will get what you want, and proceed from there.It sounds like what you want is a sincere apology, an acknowledgment that he acted a fool and it wasn’t your fault, which is what everyone wants from their exes but which has to be foregone the vast majority of the time.
Do you really think he’s going to say he’s sorry and admit that he treated you like crap?If so, will this allow you to let some things go — or should you just learn to let those things go on your own, and not rely on him to sign off on your lack of culpability?
And if not, will it dredge up a bunch of resentment and self-blame better left six years behind you?Or can you just roll your eyes and go back to not thinking about him?
Part of me wants to tell you just to blow it off, because it’s not like the two of you will patch things up and form a friendship, but it probably causes less net drama to set up the one-time email address and let the guy say what he wants to say.But you’ll want to prepare yourself for how you’ll be in the interaction — i.e. I wouldn’t encourage any “so what’s new with you” small-talk-type throat-clearing; if he wants to apologize, he can do that, but you’re not really interested in shooting the shit — and you’ll also want to plan for the possibility that it’ll turn into more of the same, so that you don’t feel too disappointed or angry.
As long as I can remember, I’ve read about self-deprecation and self-deprecating people.Suddenly, starting about two months ago, I started seeing fan-fiction that used the term “self-depreciating” instead.
Surely that’s wrong, I thought.Google searches turn up a lot of forums that agree with me, as does my copyeditor friend.Wikipedia returns repoints “self-depreciation” to “self-deprecation.”The dictionary sites, though, vary depending on the word form and referenced source dictionary…and Garner seems to think that “self-deprecating” is the incorrect version.He grants it Standard American English status only grudgingly and, as far as I can tell, would himself still prefer “self-depreciating.”
I tried searching for old Vine entries on the topic, and while I don’t find any, I see that you seem to use “self-deprecating.”What’s your position on “self-depreciating”?Would you figure this is one of those rare cases in which Garner has lost the plot or clung to a moldering corpse, or would you accept it without comment, or…?
“Self-depreciating” makes me think of anthropomorphized AIG stock
Dear Stock,
My instinct is to agree with you.”Self-depreciating” sounds incorrect.Garner does note that, while “deprecate” means “to disapprove regretfully,” “depreciate” in its transitive form means “to belittle, disparage,” and as you mentioned, he’s quite irritated that “self-deprecating” has become the default, crabbing that “[t]he phrase self-deprecating is, literally speaking, a virtual impossibility, except perhaps for those suffering from extreme neuroses.”I don’t see how that’s true, actually.To disapprove regretfully of oneself is, to my mind, exactly what “self-deprecating” means tonally.
Furthermore, a quick check of m-w.com reveals that some dictionaries may no longer agree with Garner.The first definition of “depreciate” in the transitive is “to lower in estimation or esteem,” followed by “to lower the price or estimated value of” and “to deduct from taxable income a portion of the original cost of (a business asset) over several years as the value of the asset decreases.”The first is a figurative version of the second, and isn’t nearly as strongly put in terms of the disparagement aspect as Garner indicates.
The intransitive is, of course, “to fall in value,” which is how the vast majority of us probably uses “depreciate.”So where does that leave us?
I don’t tend to take the descriptivist side of these debates — just because people use “irregardless” all the time doesn’t mean we should surrender to that ignorance — but “depreciate” is now associated so strongly with matters of price and valuation that I don’t think we could rehabilitate the word in the way Garner suggests.
Another point: “deprecate” originally meant “to pray against,” via its Latin root.”Depreciate” also derives from Latin, but from a different word meaning “price.”Ordering these two words according to the figurative meanings or sensibilities suggested by their origins makes the most sense.
It pains me, but I think Garner is unnecessarily rigid on this point. Continue to use “self-deprecating” as you have.
Hi Sars.Longtime, and I mean LONGTIME listener; I read The Smoking Section on gopher, for godsakes.
I’m actually writing on behalf of my dear husband, The Dave.You know how many guys named Dave there are?[“Do I.” — ed.] Well, he’s THE Dave I married.Therefore, The Dave.
For years, The Dave worked for the corporate side of a company everyone has heard of, which is a direct home sales company dealing in cosmetics, and is associated with the color pink.Then three years ago, he went to work for a former colleague on a very small e-business venture, which went gangbusters until the economy went bust.
This small company is not yet bust, but the colleague (who is also his boss) strongly recommended he find other more stable employment.The Big Pink Entity was always hoping to welcome The Dave back to, um, her bosom, so he’s going back.
The Big Pink Entity has never heard of “casual.”It’s been less than a decade since they allowed their female employees to wear pants to work.
Finally, my question.What kind of pants/slacks/trousers would be a good choice for him to wear to work?He’ll be in a shirt and tie every day, and he’s got a wonderful silly array of ties, and shirts are a no-brainer.But The Dave has been in jeans for three years, working from home 75% of the time.I love him in all his slovenliness, but he’s got to leave that all behind because he now needs Pants That Mean Business.
He used to wear pants with pleats and cuffs and while that might have worked for a little while, in their time, years ago, my guess is that won’t cut it now.He’s heavier than he used to be (see above slovenliness) and carries all his weight in his stomach.He has the classic computer programmer build.He’s tall with a skinny butt and a 38″ waist.
What the hell will look good on him?I’m open to suggestions, and I don’t want to rely on some guy at Men’s Wearhouse to be his fashion guru.Could you or your readers help?
But you know, I’m secretly looking forward to seeing him wear that Tabasco tie I bought for him again.
Thanks,
BeerPup
Dear Pup,
It’s not clear whether he has to wear suit-like pants, or just any pants that aren’t jeans.If it’s the former, have him go online and search the archives of sites like Esquire and Details for suiting guides.Those mags’ insistence on dudes buying $350 pairs of jeans is dumb, but they do run articles along the lines of “Your Guide To The Perfect Suit” once or twice a year.
The Dave can make some notes on what he likes, or print out a few pages, and then go to Men’s Wearhouse or Burlington Coat Factory or Joseph Bank and pick something similar.He should have a couple of suits anyway, just to have them around for weddings, big meetings, and the like — one pinstripe (nothing too Capone) and one solid.
If he can wear khakis, same thing.J. Crew makes some nice pants, and so does Banana Republic’s men’s department; most sites have a “shop by fit” feature he can use.He can get several pairs — a black, a brown, two khakis — and rotate them, or get cords and a glen plaid, whatever he likes.Or he can try one pair from J. Crew, then try to find that exact pair cheaper on eBay (I can’t speak for all men, but some guys have A Thing about spending more than $25 on a clothing item, even if it’s something they wear all the time; it’s like a mental block).
But suit or khaki, he should abide by two rules.1) NO pleats in front.It’s a dated look that hides nothing.2) Get a long enough inseam.The legs don’t have to puddle around his shoes, but if sock is visible at all when he’s standing up, he needs to go longer.
Wait, one more rule: 3) make sure he has two belts, one brown and one black.A brown belt with black chalk-stripe suit pants looks weird.
Tags: boys (and girls) grammar workplace
@Lady – I’m firmly in the ‘hot rock’ camp. Drop it. He sent a mutual friend to suss you out? Is he 12? Regardless of his reformation, you owe him nothing. Not closure, not forgiveness, not absolution. Nothing. Leave it where it lies. He’s doing better? Great. Good to know. You keep moving on and let him find his resolution ON HIS OWN.
Lady – If he is willing to apologize for his past bad behavior, it could give you some closure. I dated a HORRENDOUS alcoholic over 10 years ago, and if he called me up one day to say, “you know, I am so sorry I was such an ass to you… I was in the throes of alcoholism and have since gotten help for my drinking. I am ashamed and embarassed about the way I treated you”, I would feel a lot better. Of course, that would never happen b/c I am pretty sure he is still an alcoholic assfuck. if you think for one minute that your ex wants anything other than to simply apologize, then don’t agree to talk; however, if he truly wants to make amends for his behavior, it could help you overcome some anger.
Oh Lord, is Bitts ever right.
@Lady – Hot rock! Curiosity = dead cat, remember?
Plus, Isn’t it more delightful to think that by ignoring him he gets to stew in his own unrequited forgiveness wondering and wondering about you, while you are safe to forget him forever and go on with your life?
@Lady: On balance, I like the one-time email address. Hear what he has to say, and if you don’t like it, don’t even answer him. You leave yourself the opportunity to get the last word, which can be a chilly silence if you so choose. If you wind up feeling like you want to spite him, then ignoring the note will do the trick. I realize it sounds petty, and it is petty, but I’m only suggesting that as a backup in the event he turns out to still be a dick. Don’t expect an apology that will comfort you very much, but what’s important here is to do what you want. If refusing will make you wonder what he would have said, then the easiest way to retain control of the situation is to act like it’s not that big of a deal by saying, “If he has something to say, I will listen, but I’m not interested in reestablishing contact.”
You can take control of this situation in several ways, and I think what’s most important is that you think of it that way and resolve to be satisfied with whatever you decide to do.
“It pains me, but I think Garner is unnecessarily rigid on this point.”
Wordy McWord, and if that construction doesn’t have Garner wincing somewhere in wherever-he-is, I don’t know what will.
I adore the man, but every once in a while I read one of his entries and just… bzuh??? REALLY???
Self-deprecating away in LA…
So, speaking of “irregardless” – I work in a library, and the DIRECTOR OF THE LIBRARY used that word yesterday, and I almost died right there. I couldn’t believe it. Of all people!
@Lady – I have an ex like yours, from the asshole behaviour to the bipolar diagnosis after I left him to the ‘I need to talk to you to apologise’ stuff after the fact. This started out not long after the breakup, and he also told me (which I’m sure is true) that his psychiatrist thought it was important for him to apologise to me, so I said okay. Turned out that what he wanted from those conversations was for me to say I forgave him, and for us to be friends again, and when I wouldn’t give him either of those things he was a total fucking nightmare about it. Screaming tantrums and guilt trips kind of nightmare.
My advice: if you want the apology, tell the guy he can write you a letter and pass it on through the mutual friend. If he really does just want to apologise, that’ll work fine; if he insists on a face-to-face conversation, then he probably doesn’t just want to say sorry, and that’s not going to be hassle you need.
@Lady: I vote for hot rock, too. Have the mutual friend tell your ex that you appreciate the gesture, but that you think the best thing to do is move on. You want closure and you don’t want contact, and this is the most foolproof way to accomplish that.
And I think in a way, the apology transaction has already been made. You know he’s offering the olive branch, and you can acknowledge that he’s done so through the mutual friend. Do you need anything else?
This is really a case of “fake it until you make it,” where you have to make your own peace.
@Lady – I think Catseye is right. I would bet that the apology is more about making *himself* feel better, than about what you need or want to hear. I understand the curiousity – but if you let him write you, just be prepared to be disappointed. Which, you already sound like you get that, so…trust your instincts.
@Lady – If he wanted to be an adult and apologize, he would have done so directly. It would have been “I can understand if you don’t want to hear from me/speak to me anymore, but I wanted to let you know that I am sorry for the way I acted and the way I treated you. Although I’m now seeking treatment for bipolar disorder, what I did was inexcusable, and I’m sorry.” It would not be sending a third party e-mail.
I vote for replying to the mutual friend saying you appreciate his efforts to make amends, but the entire situation was too painful and you don’t care to revisit it.
Depreciation (and therefore self-depreciation) has always made me think of financial values or values in general. It might have something to do with having parents that are bankers.
Which means it is self-deprecating all the way for this girly.
And I loved finding out there are latin roots to this mental distinction I have between the two. Yay Sars! Yay the Vine!
@Stock I feel like I use both differently. Self-deprecating for wry comments/jokes about oneself — self-depreciating for beating oneself up. I’m pretty sure I used them both in a sentence to a friend last week, actually.
Lady, I have an ex like that. I listened to him the first few times he needed to apologize (also on the advice of a shrink). But he never stopped wanting more of my time, more of my forgiveness, more of my attention. I stopped paying any attention to him. AA and shrinks might think it’s good for people to apologize, but that’s not a right, and nothing he ever did to me makes me owe him the attention.
13 years later, he’s married with kids and seemingly healthy. I judge his healthiness by the fact that he doesn’t try to contact me. We have mutual friends and Facebook friends, see and hear of each other, but he finally listened when I told him that the only way he could make it up to me is by never contacting me again.
Which is to say, if you think it will help you, you can listen once. But don’t let yourself get sucked into him needing your forgiveness.
@Lady — I can’t say it any better than Bitts.
That being said, I too had A Very Bad Break Up, and 20+ years he “friended” me on FB. I let his friend request sit for a couple of weeks before I accepted it (mainly because he did NOT get fat and bald, as per my requests to the Almighty, damnitalltohell) but when I *did* friend him I got a very nice apology for his behavior (chalked up to “youth” but was really “asshole-ness to the nth degree”) which I accepted. So there’s that.
I think Catseye has a point: I would worry that, even if his apology is totally sincere, he might be expecting absolution, and he might get all, “Ok, I’ve done my part, now what’s WRONG with YOU” manipulative guilt trip if you’re still cold to him post-apology.
Still, I’m neurotic, and trying to make that decision would drive me nuts. I kind of like re-using the go-between friend, to keep a safe distance and establish from the get-go that a safe distance is exactly what you intend to keep.
And aw, my BF is total IT-guy build, and I’ve been working on slowly switching his pants collection from pleated to flat-front. He’s definitely got the aversion to spending money on clothes, and is thus VERY proud of his double-sided, reversible belt–black on one side, brown on the other.
Pup,
I was in The Dave’s position about 3 years ago when I was forced out of the warm, safe womb of graduate school into the frigid reality of actual employment. My experiences have led to a potentially controversial opinion; I think slovenly people (such as me) are best served by wearing suits to work. Suits significantly reduce the number of clothing decisions that have to be made along with the potential for mistakes. All you have to do in the morning is grab a suit and a shirt/tie combo that is not hideous and you are good to go. In addition, suits are slimming if you tend to carry weight in the stomach, and they look good on tall people. I’d avoid all patterns except a very light pinstripe or windowpane. I’d also recommend at least one solid navy two-button suit. Navy looks good on everyone, and a solid navy suit is the single most versatile item of men’s clothing.
I would worry that, even if his apology is totally sincere, he might be expecting absolution
He may be; that’s often how it goes with these things. He feels like if you hear the apology, he’s forgiven, he can consider you friends, and he can let himself off the hook for all the bullshit.
So what if he does? I’ve gone through this with exes, and it’s maddening, if you let it be, but if he’s not really in your life, who cares how he thinks it went down. He can think he’s absolved all he wants; it doesn’t make it so, and it doesn’t have anything to do with your daily life. Accept the apology, which costs you nothing to do, and leave it there.
He can also freak out that you don’t want to be friends; also not your problem. Sometimes, whatever it is other people think about you is their bag of rocks to carry. Don’t pick it up just because they wrote your name on it.
Hmmm… can I get some pronounciation help? I pronounce “self-deprecating” as self – deh-preh-kay-ting. Is Garner suggesting we instead say self- deh-pree-shee-ay-ting?
Apparently, I’m too lazy to look it up in the dictionaries.
@Lady – I’d let him have his say. People can surprise you sometimes. I had an on/off boyfriend in high school and he was crazy. I mean, completely off the rails nuts. He told outrageous lies in order to suck me back in, things like “My parents are getting divorced,” “I can’t read, will you teach me,” “I’ll kill myself if you don’t take me back,” and, most famously, “I’m pregnant.” Yes, my BOYFRIEND told me he was pregnant. He drunk dialed me countless times in the middle of the night. He also called me at work one day to tell me that he had a sexually transmitted disease (another lie) and once tried to hit me with his car while I was walking across the street.
Fast forward about 20 years. I’m on Facebook, and I get a friend request from him. My first instinct was “Not just no, but HELL no!” but then I reconsidered. I accepted the request and he sent me a lovely message saying how sorry he was for being such an asshole in high school. Did I really need closure after 20 years? No, I’d made my peace with it long ago. But it was nice to hear that he realized he’d been a jerk.
I say give him a chance to make amends. Set up the temporary email address and hear him out.
I’d leave the ex thing alone. He may very well want to apologize, but who knows how he’s going to word it.
I had an ex do this, the “I super want to apologize to her!” nonsense, and when I “let” him send me a postcard, it said “I’m really sorry for breaking your heart.” Which…uh, dude, you didn’t break my heart, you treated me like shit. There’s a difference. One implies some sort of romantic tragedy and the other is you being an asshole.
Three years after the “apology”, I am still cranky when I think of it…
Hey Laaaaadyyyyy (Sorry, Jerry Lewis took over for a sec)
I’d say let him suffer with his too-little-too-late little feelings. It’ll teach him to think twice about shitting all over someone else, maybe. Anna nailed it – let him stew. You don’t need the aggro, and you sound pretty well-closured to me. It was SIX YEARS ago! What good could come of digging up that particular turd in the litterbox?
Depreciate is a whole different word that sounds similar to deprecate but has a different meaning – the words are not interchangable!!!! (JMHO)
Congrats to The Dave on his employment with BPE!!! I hear that’s a GREAT employer! (I have nothing else to add – flat front, no socks peeking out, belt in same color family…yep!) Best of luck!
@BeerPup — As a guy of not entirely dissimilar build to The Dave, I can attest to the rightness of Sars’ advice. (Seriously, flat fronted pants are a necessity; pleats make everyone look worse.) I would add that the higher grades of Dockers, especially in the darker colors, can pass for dress pants in a lot of circumstances. I have a nice pair of gray dress pants that are a bit too tight for me now (I got them a decade ago in grad school, when I was much poorer and thinner), and I’ve replaced them with a pair of dressy-looking gray Dockers that can’t easily be distinguished from the “real” dress pants; even my wife approves of them.
Lady – Been there, done that, what a mistake! Dated a guy just like yours for four years, broke up (quite messily), moved on with my life, had been dating new guy for a couple years (great guy, we’re getting married in a month), and out of the blue ex calls and wants to talk (because he was deploying to Afghanistan two days later and wanted to make sure there were not loose ends just in case “something happened”). Agreed to meet him a coffee shop after work, had very awkward conversation in which he sort of apologized for being an asshole but then tried to get me to say that it would have worked if we’d stuck it out because he’s so much better now (no way). The whole thing was very uncomfortable and brought back a lot of the resentment I had towards him that I thought I had put to rest. It also made things awkward with the new guy for a couple days.
If you think that you’re in a solid emotional state, then OK, do the temporary email address thing, but you did say that you’ve “never able to think very clearly when it came to him.” I say drop it. You don’t need to explain yourself, and your friends shouldn’t pressure you to talk to him. It’s all well and good for him to want fuzzy feelings of forgiveness, but you have to think of yourself first.
@Hannah – I have that same belt. (It was $50 but hey, two belts in one, so they were $25 each!)
@Peach: They’re two different words with two different pronunciations. You’re pronouncing each correctly.
Whew! Glad I’m not insane! Thanks for the help!
@bitten: I’m in the he needs to prevail on a mutual friend to apologize, is he 12 camp? You say he could find you if he wanted to; you haven’t got out of your way to hide from him. So, if this was sincerely about personal growth, he’d man up and approach you himself. Until he does, forget it.
And, for all of you who have received the facebook friend apology (warning-NSFW):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55I83jEAIhk
@Stock: I’m an accountant, and depreciate is way too connected to my work to use in regard to a human being. I can see how an asset-an inanimate object-could be self-depreciating. (i.e. a car wears out as you drive it, so self-depreciating. A computer is rendered obsolete by new technology, so not). But not a person. Just no.
@BeerPup: Why NOT use the salespeople at Men’s Warehouse? They are highly trained and know what they are doing. They can be aggressive with the sales pitches, which is annoying, but a firm no takes care of it, and they will find him what works best for his body type and his company. The prices are high, but you can buy one thing there (and if you pick the salesman’s brain he should earn some commission), then just take his advice and complete the wardrobe at a lower price store.
Sars is definitely right about having a black and a brown belt, and what’s more you need one pair of black dress shoes and one pair of brown. Shoes, pants, and belt must all match-black shoes and belts with black, white, grey, or dark colored pants. Brown shoes and belt with any shade of brown or khaki.
And ditch the tobasco and other silly ties. Seriously. They scream dorky, unfashionable, AND worst, unprofessional. There’s zero sense in spending money on Pants That Mean Business and wearing a novelty tie-the tie is all anyone is going to notice.
@Lady–whatever path you choose, you’ve gotten a lot of good advice already! Having never dated a complete dirtbag like that, but having received an out of the blue, sincere “I’m sorry” from an ex for relatively minor-league douchebag behavior, I would be very curious to find out whether the rumors of health and sanity were true.
I am admitedly a person who opens emotional cans of worms in the name of curiousity, and acknowledge it can be a risky endeavor. If there’s any chance you might run into this guy at some point in the future, then you might be OK with letting it lie for now. How will you feel the second that e-mail from him pops up, or the third party delivers a message? That should guide your decision.
Lady: let us know what you decide. I’m very interested, both for your sake and my own. Don’t feel bad about still harboring anger and resentment six years out; it’s been ten years for me, and I’m still stuck on it. Anger, resentment, oh, and what’s that other one? Oh, yes – Rage. Yeah, and I can go from simmer to boil on it in 10 seconds or less. My Issues, They Are Unresolved. And not likely to be, at this point; all this anger, and I have no idea what to do with it; it certainly isn’t going to give back the years I lost, or replace the life I thought I had.
BeerPup: Congratulations to The Dave, and good luck! Since he is a tall guy, I would steer him to over-the-calf socks only. One of my bosses is a dapper dresser. He’s a dapper dresser who crosses his legs constantly, and every time he does, we get to see a nice expanse of bare leg and abbrieviated sock. It doesn’t improve the look of a suit, I promise you. And his socks should match his shoes! No pants with pleats, ever. That seems to be the one thing that all guys I’ve met agree upon/with, no matter the age, job, or sexual orientation. No pleats! To the guys out in Tomato Land, especially the ones built like The Dave: pleats only seem to offer roomy comfort. What they actually do is triple your waist size and give you the build of a penguin. Until the rest of the penguin is forthcoming, give those pleats a pass!
Margaret in CO: Sadly, that is absolutely the opposite of what I’ve heard. For the sake of The Dave, I hope you are correct, but I fear that you are not. I refer you to http://www.pinktruth.com/; your experience may differ from theirs (I certainly hope it does!)
@Once Bitten — I would really like an apology from the ex who married me and bolted seven months later. (Thanks for the advice at the time Sars!) He destroyed my finances AND my heart and went on as though nothing happened. I stopped hating him, but an apology would help a lot with leaving it in the past.
I one time dated a guy who was dismissive and a jerk to me. We were friends before that, but after we broke up, didn’t speak. He called me out of nowhere a year after we stopped dating and he apologized for how he treated me. I wasn’t expecting it, and it was really healing, and appreciated.
But still, go with your gut either way.
This–
“Sometimes, whatever it is other people think about you is their bag of rocks to carry. Don’t pick it up just because they wrote your name on it.”
Is pithy and brilliant. Thanks for it.
Ferretrick, that link is FANTASTIC. Thanks.
Also, I second the silly tie hate. Why would you spend time/money/effort on suits and looking professional just to ruin it? You wouldn’t wear Disney princess earrings to work, would you?
And how interesting that another song of hers is an apology to a classmate she was mean to? This one made me cry (SFW)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ojoqHbPmzg&feature=channel
If it is true, it’s a much better way to apologize than via Fb.
“Once bitten, twice shy, three times a lady”
I just have to say, BEST sig I’ve seen possibly ever.
Also, I recently had an ex crop up IRL – it wasn’t an abusive relationship, but it was an adulterous one, and it’s something I spent thirteen years growing past and repenting. My ex husband has forgiven me, and is one of my dearest friends. As to the ex thang-on-the-side, I spent five minutes cringing, walked right up to him, agreed when he asked whether we could “be in touch in some reasonable way”, answered about half a dozen emails in which it became clear he sort of idealizes Our Past, and finally explained that, you know, I don’t feel the same way. Haven’t heard from him since.
The fact is, you’re fine right now, Three Times. Resentments aside, if he hadn’t sent out a feeler, my sense is that you’d be essentially fine in the this-particular-ex department – and certainly more generally. If your life ain’t broke, don’t worry about letting someone from the past try to fix it. I wouldn’t say “hot rock” it, but sheer aloof dismissal has a certain healthy ring to it.
And also, socks and pants should match. Nothing’s worse than black pants, black shoes, white socks.
The Dave’s wife might want to hit up her local Macy’s or similar. Calvin Klein makes a nice series of dress pants that aren’t too stuck-up or too ‘I’m forced to dress this way’ looking. My husband swears by them. Also, if available, most Macys and similar have a personal shopper service, where you can go throw yourself (or The Daveself) on their stylish mercy and they will help you pick out stuff that is stylish, tasteful, flattering, and in your budget, if that’s a concern.
I also join the chorus to 86 the novelty ties. He’s not Weird Al.
Sometimes, whatever it is other people think about you is their bag of rocks to carry. Don’t pick it up just because they wrote your name on it.
This is the lesson I am still trying to learn.
And some Tabasco ties are very nice.
“It’ll teach him to think twice about shitting all over someone else, maybe.”
My problem with this approach is that in a sense, making your decision to PUNISH him is giving him all the power, just as much as making your decision to help him is. And honestly, if he really was mentally ill, it’s not necessarily a situation where he needs to be taught a lesson about not acting mentally ill.
My best friend says this frequently, and has applied it in his own life: “To forgive is to seize power.” And I really believe that. Facebook has been my best and most useful tool in this regard. I am friends with several people who have done hurtful things to me, who were completely out of my life and therefore functioned as Looming Figures before they became Facebook acquaintances who float by now and then. I care about them much less than I did when I resented them.
Forgiving people and deciding that you can handle contact with them without letting them suck you into anything you don’t want to be sucked into can be a great way to make people seem smaller. They become human. Normal. The people who are still looming figures in my life, who are disproportionately important relative to how important they should be? Are the people I’m still angry at. There’s only one person ON EARTH I refuse to be Facebook friends with because I can’t handle it based on the nature of the personal relationship, and I freely admit that’s the one who still has power he shouldn’t have. That’s the one I’m allowing to run me more than he should — the one I won’t speak to.
I find that I instinctively flinch at the responses that imply that you owe it to yourself to hang on to your anger. The whole point is that you can decide. You can decide to hear him out, and you can decide not to. My sense from the letter is that she kind of wants to hear him out, but she’s afraid it makes her look weak to let him speak to her. And I just want to say…I don’t think it does. It’s not weak either way. What’s strong is making the decision for yourself and having confidence that you can handle whatever he decides to say to you. If you choose not to listen, you can handle not knowing. If you choose to listen, you can handle what he says. Good luck.
@BeerPup: For a conservative company like the Big Pink Entity, IMO, he needs to err on the side of conservative–which doesn’t usually include flat front pants for men’s attire. My husband works for a Big Four accounting firm (read extremely conservative), and flat-fronts are a no-go. He shops mostly at Brooks Brothers.
Beerpup — Please follow the advice not to get pleated pants. Not only do they not hide anything, they tend to poof up around the front, making a guy look diapery. If you’re really skinny, a bit of shape around your mid-section may not be so bad. But if you’ve got one curvy part of your body, you don’t want a second one just below it.
So, flat front. The more stylish look at the time is also no cuffs. And the bottom of the pant leg should break on the top of his shoe when he’s standing up straight.
Unfortunately, flat front and no cuff means you will more likely have to order online. Even places like the Gap and BR still tend to stock more of the pleated and cuffed pants in the store, while making a full range of flat-front, no-cuff pants available online. But you can go into a store and figure out the sizes, then order online.
If he really needs suit pants, and not just a more business casual look, I would recommend checking out Joseph A. Bank as well as Men’s Wearhouse. Jos. A. Bank has a ton of stuff on their web site and lots of stores where you can try things on. More importantly, from time to time they have crazy sales. I mean, two suits for $299? Hard to beat. (In fact, a visit to their site reveals a nice sale going on through August 30, including twill pants for $30 a pair.)
Finally, it’s acceptable to wear a black belt and black shoes with a brown suit. And you can wear brown belt and brown shoes with almost any color suit (including a dark navy). But please, no brown shoes and brown belt with a black or charcoal suit.
@ Beerpup,
I agree with the upthread commenter who suggested Dockers. Haggar is also good at making pants that can bridge the gap from casual to professional business attire.
@Lady: I’m coming at this from a different perspective in that I don’t have an asshole ex, but I do have a bipolar mom, and although I still see her fairly often (now that I have moved out and she is on meds, hallelujah) and we have a fairly amicable relationship (you, know, when I’m not seething with resentment about how she ruined my childhood), I’m still waiting on that apology. For me, I would absolutely want the apology, or even just the acknowledgment that there was something wrong with her and it wasn’t my fault.
My dad’s inclination is to blame it all on the mental illness, like that was some sort of sentient being that took over her and made her do bad things, but having dealt with depression myself (and also having witnessed my mother control her crazy in public, but then bust it out on us at home), I know that while there were things I couldn’t control (like crying all the damn time), that was still me in there. The things I said and did were still motivated by my concerns and my self and I’m totally making this all about me which I didn’t mean to do, but I guess my point is:
I’d want to hear/read the apology even if it was half-assed (because at least it’s something), so you might as well give it a whirl.
@BlueChaos
I’m in a similar situation with my mom (different diagnosis, same batshit crazy) and she has apologized. It rings false though, since in her case there’s been no actual change in her behavior. If your mom has actually changed, that’s wonderful, but if even on meds she is still emotionally manipulative or stuck in the same neurotic patterns, the apology might not mean as much as you would like. Either way, I hope you find some peace.
@ Lady: I’m in the drop it camp.
I say this because I had a similar situation, but with a friend rather than an ex. It was the sort of friend who has meltdowns on a regular basis but with no warning, and leaves you wondering what the hell just happened. I let him apologize for being an asshole and totally making it uncomfortable for me to deal with him, and he promised he would be a better friend in the future. The thing is, he sounded truly sincere, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
A year later we had another blowout, only much worse this time. I ended up dropping him like a hot potato and dropping other friends along with him just so I would never have to deal with him again, all the while blaming myself for letting myself be roped back into crazytown. For a while I was very bitter about not having gotten a true apology.
For me true closure came along much later, when I realized that the apology and wanting to be a better friend was just something he did to make himself feel better, and that in fact he always was and would always be a lousy friend. After that I didn’t want a “true” apology anymore, the fact that it wasn’t coming saved me the trouble to say: “You know what? I still don’t want to have anything to do with you.”
So consider this before you bother with resuming contact: would you ever want to be entangled with this person again? Would you want him as a friend? As an acquaintance? Or would you just as soon cross the street to avoid running into him? If the latter, just tell the mutual friend that you have done your best to move on, and that you wish your ex would do the same without imposing on you. It’s for the best.
Lady: I like the “tell him to write a letter” approach; another is for you to consider that you have, in fact, received an apology, and to send back a “thanks, and though I don’t want to be in touch at this time, I appreciate it.” I don’t see that talking things out is requisite, and it sounds like you’re not really confident in that being a good experience, so feel free to accept what’s happened as the event itself.
I’m sure The Dave knows this, having had a business-wear past, but under no circumstances should he wear white socks with any shoe that is not a sneaker. I have lived in places where white socks were standard dress, and while the locals never gave it a second thought, any visiting corporate muckety-muck not only noticed, but snarked about it endlessly. Kind of horrifying, especially in an industry that valued appearance, as I’m sure BPE does, that being their business and all.
It’s easy to avoid that mistake. No white socks. (No offense to AL Chicago fans. Different thing altogether!)
If it were me, though, I’d lean towards suitage. As mentioned upthread, it’s simple, it’s never incorrect, and it’s easy to put together. He can always doff the jacket at work.
Ditto bluechaos, anotherkate. My mother apologises after most of her screaming I-hate-my-life-and-I-hate-you temper fits, and all I do anymore is accept that on face value, because what I really want is for her to say that she won’t resort to emotional terrorism next time – and mean it – and I know I’ll never get that.
I can also relate to the way your dad explained it; she’s said before that it isn’t her, it’s Her Temper who acts like this, like I should be comforted that my mother can be switched at the drop of a hat with this other person who wants to kill herself and/or leave the family and never come back.
@Lady: I would not make contact of any sort, I don’t think. There’s just no upside for you. And it’s not costless. If a genuine apology does take place, then you might find yourself feeling this pressure to respond in some way. What I wouldn’t want is for him–and all of the ensuing drama, manipulation, whatever particular form the toxicity used to take–to re-insinuate himself into your thoughts and life.
@ Lady – 10 years after one of my best friendships dissolved over the friend’s addictions and bad behavior, I received an unbelievably cool letter from her. In it she made it clear that she didn’t expect anything from me, but she wanted to let me know that she had figured some things out in the years since we had parted ways and that she was genuinely sorry. I did several close readings of it looking for signs that she was either giving herself an out or trying to manipulate me into making her feel better, but nope, the letter was legit. That’s the way to apologize – without hope of any acknowledgement or forgiveness. Had she tried to worm back to me through friends, or demanded a face-to-face meeting in order to apologize, I would have run screaming. If nightmare guy is really sorry, why can’t he just write you a letter?