The Vine: August 26, 2009
Hey Sars,
I have an ex-boyfriend question for you. I’ll try to sum up as well as possible.
I dated my ex-boyfriend off and on since we were teenagers, then seriously for 5 1/2 years. We broke up 6 years ago. To say he was an asshole would be the understatement of the year. He treated me like shit, he cheated on me, and I stuck around and took it because I “loved him” or whatever-the-hell. When we finally broke up for really-reals-no-I-mean-it-this-time-seriously, it was ugly. We haven’t spoken to each other since, and have only seen each other at social events once or twice.
Apparently, the girlfriend he had after me had a bit of a calming influence on him, and got him to seek help in the form of therapy. From there, he was diagnosed bipolar and has since been on medication. My initial reaction upon hearing this was, “Oh, they have a pill to fix ‘asshole’?” Seriously, this guy was such a tool, I have no idea why I stuck around so long.
What’s prompting this is that recently I got an email from a mutual friend, stating that he wants to talk to me to apologize for, well, whatever he feels the need to apologize for. I’m torn as to what I should do about this. My initial reaction was, “Fuck you, I don’t owe you shit.”
But now my curiosity is getting the better of me. I still harbor a lot of resentment and anger towards him. There is the potential that I could achieve some sort of release or closure or pick-your-cliché. There is also the potential that it’s a load of crap and he’s just trying to get back in my pants.
My friends so far are split pretty evenly between talk to him/don’t talk to him. And I’m having a hard time making up my mind one way or the other. One idea I had is to set up a temporary email address, and if he wants to say something, he can say it in email. I mean, it’s not like he couldn’t find me if he wanted to. I just don’t want to open myself up to his manipulations any more than I have to in order to satisfy my curiosity on the subject. I was never able to think very clearly when it came to him, so a face-to-face meeting is completely out of the question.
What’s your take, Oh Clear-Headed One? Should I give this prick the time of day? Or just drop it like a hot rock and move on?
(Oh, and feel free to edit out my profanity as you see fit. I’m a vulgar bitch.)
Sincerely,
Once bitten, twice shy, three times a lady
Dear Lady,
It’s one of those situations where you have to assess what you want out of it, and then how likely it is that you will get what you want, and proceed from there.It sounds like what you want is a sincere apology, an acknowledgment that he acted a fool and it wasn’t your fault, which is what everyone wants from their exes but which has to be foregone the vast majority of the time.
Do you really think he’s going to say he’s sorry and admit that he treated you like crap?If so, will this allow you to let some things go — or should you just learn to let those things go on your own, and not rely on him to sign off on your lack of culpability?
And if not, will it dredge up a bunch of resentment and self-blame better left six years behind you?Or can you just roll your eyes and go back to not thinking about him?
Part of me wants to tell you just to blow it off, because it’s not like the two of you will patch things up and form a friendship, but it probably causes less net drama to set up the one-time email address and let the guy say what he wants to say.But you’ll want to prepare yourself for how you’ll be in the interaction — i.e. I wouldn’t encourage any “so what’s new with you” small-talk-type throat-clearing; if he wants to apologize, he can do that, but you’re not really interested in shooting the shit — and you’ll also want to plan for the possibility that it’ll turn into more of the same, so that you don’t feel too disappointed or angry.
As long as I can remember, I’ve read about self-deprecation and self-deprecating people.Suddenly, starting about two months ago, I started seeing fan-fiction that used the term “self-depreciating” instead.
Surely that’s wrong, I thought.Google searches turn up a lot of forums that agree with me, as does my copyeditor friend.Wikipedia returns repoints “self-depreciation” to “self-deprecation.”The dictionary sites, though, vary depending on the word form and referenced source dictionary…and Garner seems to think that “self-deprecating” is the incorrect version.He grants it Standard American English status only grudgingly and, as far as I can tell, would himself still prefer “self-depreciating.”
I tried searching for old Vine entries on the topic, and while I don’t find any, I see that you seem to use “self-deprecating.”What’s your position on “self-depreciating”?Would you figure this is one of those rare cases in which Garner has lost the plot or clung to a moldering corpse, or would you accept it without comment, or…?
“Self-depreciating” makes me think of anthropomorphized AIG stock
Dear Stock,
My instinct is to agree with you.”Self-depreciating” sounds incorrect.Garner does note that, while “deprecate” means “to disapprove regretfully,” “depreciate” in its transitive form means “to belittle, disparage,” and as you mentioned, he’s quite irritated that “self-deprecating” has become the default, crabbing that “[t]he phrase self-deprecating is, literally speaking, a virtual impossibility, except perhaps for those suffering from extreme neuroses.”I don’t see how that’s true, actually.To disapprove regretfully of oneself is, to my mind, exactly what “self-deprecating” means tonally.
Furthermore, a quick check of m-w.com reveals that some dictionaries may no longer agree with Garner.The first definition of “depreciate” in the transitive is “to lower in estimation or esteem,” followed by “to lower the price or estimated value of” and “to deduct from taxable income a portion of the original cost of (a business asset) over several years as the value of the asset decreases.”The first is a figurative version of the second, and isn’t nearly as strongly put in terms of the disparagement aspect as Garner indicates.
The intransitive is, of course, “to fall in value,” which is how the vast majority of us probably uses “depreciate.”So where does that leave us?
I don’t tend to take the descriptivist side of these debates — just because people use “irregardless” all the time doesn’t mean we should surrender to that ignorance — but “depreciate” is now associated so strongly with matters of price and valuation that I don’t think we could rehabilitate the word in the way Garner suggests.
Another point: “deprecate” originally meant “to pray against,” via its Latin root.”Depreciate” also derives from Latin, but from a different word meaning “price.”Ordering these two words according to the figurative meanings or sensibilities suggested by their origins makes the most sense.
It pains me, but I think Garner is unnecessarily rigid on this point. Continue to use “self-deprecating” as you have.
Hi Sars.Longtime, and I mean LONGTIME listener; I read The Smoking Section on gopher, for godsakes.
I’m actually writing on behalf of my dear husband, The Dave.You know how many guys named Dave there are?[“Do I.” — ed.] Well, he’s THE Dave I married.Therefore, The Dave.
For years, The Dave worked for the corporate side of a company everyone has heard of, which is a direct home sales company dealing in cosmetics, and is associated with the color pink.Then three years ago, he went to work for a former colleague on a very small e-business venture, which went gangbusters until the economy went bust.
This small company is not yet bust, but the colleague (who is also his boss) strongly recommended he find other more stable employment.The Big Pink Entity was always hoping to welcome The Dave back to, um, her bosom, so he’s going back.
The Big Pink Entity has never heard of “casual.”It’s been less than a decade since they allowed their female employees to wear pants to work.
Finally, my question.What kind of pants/slacks/trousers would be a good choice for him to wear to work?He’ll be in a shirt and tie every day, and he’s got a wonderful silly array of ties, and shirts are a no-brainer.But The Dave has been in jeans for three years, working from home 75% of the time.I love him in all his slovenliness, but he’s got to leave that all behind because he now needs Pants That Mean Business.
He used to wear pants with pleats and cuffs and while that might have worked for a little while, in their time, years ago, my guess is that won’t cut it now.He’s heavier than he used to be (see above slovenliness) and carries all his weight in his stomach.He has the classic computer programmer build.He’s tall with a skinny butt and a 38″ waist.
What the hell will look good on him?I’m open to suggestions, and I don’t want to rely on some guy at Men’s Wearhouse to be his fashion guru.Could you or your readers help?
But you know, I’m secretly looking forward to seeing him wear that Tabasco tie I bought for him again.
Thanks,
BeerPup
Dear Pup,
It’s not clear whether he has to wear suit-like pants, or just any pants that aren’t jeans.If it’s the former, have him go online and search the archives of sites like Esquire and Details for suiting guides.Those mags’ insistence on dudes buying $350 pairs of jeans is dumb, but they do run articles along the lines of “Your Guide To The Perfect Suit” once or twice a year.
The Dave can make some notes on what he likes, or print out a few pages, and then go to Men’s Wearhouse or Burlington Coat Factory or Joseph Bank and pick something similar.He should have a couple of suits anyway, just to have them around for weddings, big meetings, and the like — one pinstripe (nothing too Capone) and one solid.
If he can wear khakis, same thing.J. Crew makes some nice pants, and so does Banana Republic’s men’s department; most sites have a “shop by fit” feature he can use.He can get several pairs — a black, a brown, two khakis — and rotate them, or get cords and a glen plaid, whatever he likes.Or he can try one pair from J. Crew, then try to find that exact pair cheaper on eBay (I can’t speak for all men, but some guys have A Thing about spending more than $25 on a clothing item, even if it’s something they wear all the time; it’s like a mental block).
But suit or khaki, he should abide by two rules.1) NO pleats in front.It’s a dated look that hides nothing.2) Get a long enough inseam.The legs don’t have to puddle around his shoes, but if sock is visible at all when he’s standing up, he needs to go longer.
Wait, one more rule: 3) make sure he has two belts, one brown and one black.A brown belt with black chalk-stripe suit pants looks weird.
Tags: boys (and girls) grammar workplace
@ Lady: I say leave it alone. Forgiveness and closure is all well and good in theory (assuming he even intends to make a sincere apology), but there are also good reasons to hold on to that anger.
I, too, had a traumatizing relationship long ago with a guy suffering from undiagnosed mental illness. He cheated, he denigrated, he hit me, and he threatened to kill me. Fortunately, after three years, he had broken me down so badly that he lost interest and moved out. I heard that he eventually had a meltdown, attempted suicide, was finally properly diagnosed, and got sober. Good for him.
Meanwhile, I spent years in therapy coming to terms with the fact that I had been one of those battered women that you just want to shake and say “um, if he punches you, why don’t you LEAVE?” My greatest fear is that I’ll end up letting another man treat me like that. In fact, it’s been almost ten years since he moved out, and I still have recurring nightmares about getting back together with him (despite all the wonderful healthy relationships I’ve had since). Do I think I deserve an apology from him? Shit yes. But I don’t want one, because then I might forgive him, and lose that little nugget of anger that keeps me vigilant about never allowing anyone to treat me like that ever again. Plus, were I to give him the opportunity to apologize, and then hear anything short of “It was all my fault and I am the worst person in the world,” I would feel like I was letting him hurt me all over again.
Of course, that’s ME, and you have to decide for YOU, but my opinion is that forgiveness and closure are overrated, and if I were in your shoes I would tell the mutual friend “thanks, but I’m not interested in hearing from him.”
Oh, heh, speaking of Tabasco ties, I totally just bought this for my BF (who does not, I should note, have to wear ties to work): http://www.uncommongoods.com/item/item.jsp?itemId=14221
He does, however, have to wear ties to various events for .my. job, and I’m all about this tie for such occasions.
Beerpup — I suppose it’s possible that the Big Pink Co. is so conservative that men can only wear pleated pants. But I’m not aware of any place that measures the suitability of business attire based on the presence or absence of pleats (outside of a very few old-school law firms that require all male attorneys to shop at the same store).* Generally, the distinction between business and business casual is the distinction between wool trousers (which can be summer weight, no need to fear the heat or the itch) and cotton Dockers or khakis. If full on business attire is required, he should be able to wear wool trousers with a flat front.
* I don’t actually know whether such old-school law firms still exist today.
@BeerPup, LTG: a great place to order flat front, cuffless (or cuffed) trousers online is Lands End*. The cost isn’t that high, considering that the trousers are excellent quality, a statement I do not make lightly. Plus there’s the option of getting a separate jacket in the same fabric, making a suit. Because I’m smart and thrifty, I’d buy one jacket and two of the same kind of trousers, and alternate them with the jacket, so that the trousers wear evenly. If The Dave is truly tall, or just long through the crotch depth (the length from his waist to where his legs meet his torso), he can even order trousers which are long through that area, which is virtually unheard of and was a Godsend to me when I was married. A guy doesn’t have to be extra-tall to be extra-long through the crotch depth; sometimes it Just Happens, sometimes it’s exacerbated by having a tummy, or a substantial backside (or both); but I discovered it’s almost impossible to find trousers for guys which are longer through the crotch depth than the standard offerings, and Lands End offered them in wool, cotton twill, and denim!
@Juli: Really? Pleatless trousers are verboten at your husband’s place of work? No, I don’t think you’re fibbing about it, it just seems really odd to me; I’ve worked in a lot of conservative places, and they’ve gone on at great and tedious length about What One Can And Cannot Wear, and none of those places, not law firms, not insurance companies, ever did a Thou Shalt Not Wear Flat-Front Trousers If Thou Art Male. And these were places that expected the women to wear pantyhose. I hope your husband runs rampant on the weekends, flagrantly wearing flat-fronted everything.
*How I hate the fact that there is no apostrophe in the name, a matter for which the company has actually publicly apologised. In writing. Apparently they got stuck with it back in Teh Dawn of Time, and it still makes them uncomfortable, too.
@Lady My gut (which is not yours, so feel free to toss this advise) is that if the ex wanted to apologize in a way that didn’t expect something from you…he should have done so already. When he contacted said friend, he could have apologized then. He could have given the friend a letter, an email to forward, words to pass on (okay, that could end up like a game of telephone, but you would at least know his general intentions). Then it would be up to you post apology to do what you wanted. Not to see him to get an apology.
This sort of reminds me of all those those of people on the other side–who’ve done bad things and ask if its okay to contact the people they’ve hurt to apologize. Often the Dear So-and-So says…Is the other person happy? Maybe you should just leave them alone and not drudge up unhappy memories just to make yourself feel better. They ask the letter writer what they want out of it or what they expect in return (to be magically forgiven?).
@Linda – I didn’t suggest ignoring the request as a punishment, just as a consequence of being a dick. Yeah, yeah, bipolar, it’s an awful illness, I get that. Not a free ticket to be a dick, though. She owes him nothing.
@Boone – Thanks for sharing your story. Glad the therapy helped so much, and that your current relationships are happier. It’s inspiring! I admire your core of steel and I hope the nightmares stop. (This helped me with a recurring nightmare from childhood: I remembered as much of the dream as possible, and before it got to the freak-me-out-scary part, I made the faceless monster guy turn into a puff of glitter. It took a bunch of that sort of visualization for the monster guy to actually turn into glitter IN THE NIGHTMARE, but it did eventually happen & it was completely awesome & he hasn’t been back since! Good luck!)
I just want to make clear that I wasn’t advocating in favor of hearing the guy out because of the effects of forgiveness “in theory.” I was simply pointing out that just as it CAN be empowering to reserve the right not to talk to someone, it also CAN be empowering to listen to what he has to say and learn that you can manage it and nothing happens. Either one is okay. There’s not a right answer and a wrong answer.
“I had an abusive ex, and I would never want to talk to him again” doesn’t really answer her question. If she said, “I don’t want to talk to him, but my friends think it would be healthy for me,” then there’d be no question that she shouldn’t do it and we wouldn’t be here. She’s absolutely right that she owes him nothing. But she DOES want to hear him out, if only out of curiosity; she’s just afraid that it will create further problems. She wants to know what he has to say, and if it’s a sincere apology, she wants to hear it. She just doesn’t want to get sucked back into a great big thing, and all I’m saying is that you can decide to hear him out but not to get sucked into a great big thing. You’re allowed to make that choice.
I just can’t bring myself to flatly advise her to say she’s not interested in hearing from him when she clearly IS interested in hearing from him, if her only reason is fear that she can’t manage the contact. I think it might be good for her to teach herself that she CAN manage the contact.
@Pup, LTG: I work at a Top 20 law firm and know loads of people who work at other white-shoe firms, and I’ve never heard of any requirement that anyone wear pleated pants or shop at the same store. On the contrary, any man in pleated pants is roundly mocked (at least in my circle) for being poofy and out-of-date. Of course, some older partners (the ones who still wear suits every day) may disagree, but their views don’t shape dress requirements. Like every other workplace, the firm is too busy policing the “no flip flops” and “no hot pants” rules to worry about whether someone’s trousers are pleated or not.
I will jump on the “no novelty ties bandwagon.” The toilet one linked to is fine to me because it looks like a regular tie, with a slyness that makes it clever. The other usual novelty ones are distracting and unprofessional. There’s a guy at work who wears beautiful, expensive custom-made suits with silly ties, and the impression he gives is of dressing cheaply and poorly, which is solely a result of the ties.
Re: Amalthea’s comment: Yikes. The whole “sorry I broke your heart” thing is the main reason why I will NEVER respond to any messages from…well not quite an ex, but someone who returned an infatuation with complete dismissal and some really crappy comments and behavior. And yet I think that means I’m still giving him some power, because the idea that he might think I’ve been pining for him all these years makes my skin crawl. It almost makes me WANT him to contact me, so I can either coolly brush him off or turn on the atomic rage.
Fortunately he’s only tried to friend my sister and a mutual friend on FB, but not me. He also apparently has some mental illness issues, because he started his messages with “I’ve been diagnosed with Aspergers.” Which, yeah…no. The fact that he might realize his behavoir was atrocious is one thing, but it doesn’t make us any more willing to have him back in our lives. When you get right down to it, mental illness is an explanation, but not an excuse.
This answer probably won’t see the light of day with all the other responses here (and frankly I haven’t read them all so this may have been mentioned) but the brand I highly recommend for those who want to look snazzy but still be comfortable is Tommy Bahama! Yeah – it’s not just loud Hawaiian prints anymore. They have a line of business casual pants and it is made for the dudes who may need a little more room in the waistband. They actually have little elastic tabs in the waistband that can expand as you move or as you grow (less than a full size). They are kinda pricey – about $110 at Macy’s in NYC two years ago – but they are comfy, soft and washable!!! The shorts are great too for casual wear. My boyfriend won’t wear anything else. And he just happens to be a software developer too. :)
@ Linda: I just want to make it clear that I acknowledged that my personal experience may not be of help to Lady, but thanks for boiling down my genuine attempt to share a very private and difficult story to “I had an abusive ex, and I would never want to talk to him again.” Next time, I’ll just post that.
Lady seemed to be asking whether she should hear him out in order to ease her anger and resentment. She said: “I still harbor a lot of resentment and anger towards him. There is the potential that I could achieve some sort of release or closure or pick-your-cliché…” I don’t believe forgiveness, release, closure, whatever you want to call it, is necessarily an achievement, that’s all. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone on TN claim to know the right or the wrong answer to anyone’s problems.
I think we all understand that everyone is just trying to help. Let’s focus on the letter, as written, and deal with what it actually says; let’s also throttle back the tone a gear or two.
For myself, “wanting an apology” often looks like “wanting a healing balm for the thing that someone else broke that never can never really be healed, at least not by any means under my direct control”.
I’ve had a few apologies that actually accomplished that; most of the time, though, deciding whether to open a can of worms on basis of their “apology” is a matter of evaluating whether: 1) I’ll actually receive the above balm, 2) it will help someone who is genuinely recovering, even if it does nothing for me, or 3) I’m just volunteering to carry their rocks by just hearing the matter. In order of popularity, the answers run 3, 2, 1.
Seriously, if trying to heal/fix something was really the most important thing on his mind, he’d have just done that. He could have passed a written letter through the friend, or just addressed a damn envelope already. Or asked the friend to tell you a message. People that really want something done, get it done. Everythig else is generally bullshit and excuses.
I’d vote for “hot rock” obviously but really only you can decide.
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“Sometimes, whatever it is other people think about you is their bag of rocks to carry. Don’t pick it up just because they wrote your name on it”
If I can’t get that on a t-shirt, I’m just going to have to carve it on my wall instead. Brilliant!
@La BellaDonna–Just getting back to this, but by no means is there a written rule that flat fronts are verboten at my husband’s workplace, but it isn’t done beyond those in mid-level positions. Most men wear suits every day, and yes, their pants have pleats, and this is in NYC. When he first started at said firm, I asked him why he wasn’t wearing a number of his pairs of (flat front) pants. He said they were too casual, and that no one at his level (or above) does it. There are many unwritten rules about attire at said firm, and employees have been taken aside many a time for not falling in line…
@Lady:
Not having my abusive ex anywhere in my life these past 20 years is worth over ten thousand apologies.
“carries all his weight in his stomach. He has the classic computer programmer build. He’s tall with a skinny butt and a 38″ waist.”
Wow, that is spot. on. I am engaged to one that perpertuates the type…