The Vine: August 27, 2008
Dear Sars,
How do you help motivate someone you love when they seem to have lost their way?
My husband has been studying for an horrendous exam for the last three years and has already sat it twice.He needs to pass the exam in three months in order to continue on his anaesthetics training program, but he has lost all his motivation to study.He is an intelligent man and a capable, caring doctor but he seems to be getting a mental block about this exam and I’m worried he doesn’t actually believe he can pass it.It was the first exam he ever failed.We were both just devastated when he didn’t pass on his second attempt, and a third attempt feels almost insurmountable.
He tells me he’s finding it difficult to sit down and do some productive study because he’s already been over all the material so many times, and it wasn’t even that interesting in the first place!I know he resents all the time he has to spend away from me and our two small children.Last weekend he took some time away from studying but then felt at a loss because he thinks we’ve forgotten how to be a normal family spending time together on the weekend.
I am trying to support him as best I can (I take care of all household/children duties, encourage him to go for walks, ask him revision questions most nights et cetera) and I know how hard it is for him to work a full week (with overtime) and then find time to study on top of that.How do I motivate him?
He does want to be an anaesthetist and he will be a very good one — he gets great feedback from his colleagues and supervisors — it’s just this fucking exam that is hanging over his head.Time is running out, and he has arranged to take all his holidays (and some leave without pay) for six weeks before the exam to do some intensive study, so I can’t even suggest he take a week off now and we go to the beach so he can clear his head and catch up on his sleep deficit!
I love him so very much — he’s a wonderful husband and father — and it’s breaking my heart to see him drifting a little and losing confidence in himself.Do you have any suggestions of how I can light a fire under him to get him through to the end?
Thanks for reading,
Anaesthetics primary exams put everyone to sleep!
Dear Having A Gas,
The first thing is to make sure he’s receptive to suggestions from you; some people really need to find their own ways on stuff like this, and any help, no matter how effective or well-meaning, will feel like nagging to those people.But it sounds to me like he’s happy to hear any suggestions you have to get through this as a family (and that he gets that the situation affects you and the kids, too), which is the most important thing, so sit down with pen and paper, and draw up a battle plan together.
First, identify the goals.”Duh — he wants to pass this exam so he can become an anesthetist and have his home life back.”Fine, great.Seems obvious; is obvious.Write it down.Next, write down what’s standing between him and these goals — again, obvious counts; you don’t have to get Freudian with the issues.The list is going to look something like “1) material is too familiar and boring, 2) have already taken exam twice and feel huge pressure to pass it already, 3) hard to focus on studying because of guilt/resentment at it cutting into family time; hard to focus on family time because of guilt/resentment at it cutting into studying.”
Then you make yet another list under each problem, brainstorming ways to solve or alleviate it.Let’s take the second one first — he feels pressure to pass this time, he feels embarrassed that he hasn’t passed it before.Turn that into a kind of Rocky underdog narrative, even if it feels stupid.Narrate it, like the “in a world where” guy in the movie trailers; pick a theme song.Get a big calendar and cross days off, or put stickers, something you can involve the wee ones in.I helped Skyrockets move earlier this summer, out of an apartment he’d lived in for ten years, and I am telling you, if it weren’t for the Flash Gordon theme song, I would have killed myself.
But more importantly, acknowledge the facts — he’s taken it twice, and he does kind of need to stick it this time so he can move on.Discuss what happens if he doesn’t pass, and whether he should move on from it for a while and focus on something else.Figure out, if you can, which portions he biffed so he can give those sections more attention.
Nos. 1 and 3 on the list relate to one another somewhat.He needs to repackage his study materials in a different way, accepting that this will probably not make them any more interesting, but may give him different mnemonics for remembering them.The act of reorganizing the materials may help him — structuring my class notes into “modules” before finals was half the battle for me, usually — and if you can keep an eye on #3 while doing that, so much the better.Divide everything into roughly equal-sized sections — it all fits on one big notecard, say, or it takes him an hour to review and test himself.Then write up a schedule for each day between now and the exam, like “Wednesday: review Chunks 3-5, 2 hours.Wife quiz on chunks, 0.5 hours.Review previous day’s chunks, 0.5 hours.1-hour break; bathe baby, dishes.Review Chunks 6-8” et cetera et cetera.
His brain may not work like mine does, but this really helps me get through a long to-do list of writing tasks efficiently — or housework, for that matter, anything that is daunting and unappealing and necessary.Give it an hour, set the egg timer, and do nothing but that for the hour, and when the hour is up, it’s on to something else.
Basically, he’s got to accept that he’s sick of studying, resents its intrusion, and then feels guilty for not wanting to apply himself, because…of course he feels that way, and then he’s got to identify the solution, draw up a schedule that includes rewards and downtime, and just grind the motherfucker.I could not have hated studying for math finals more, or thought it served less purpose, but I knew what I had to do, in what order and in what timeframe, and the whole household was on board with the project.I went in my room with a sleeve of wheat crackers and my lucky classical-music tape, came out once an hour to run around in the yard and grab a Diet Coke, and when I came down for dinner, it was like the corner of the ring between rounds.”Wait for the equation to drop its hands and then HIT IT IN THE IMAGINARY NUMBER.”It took a village to get me my B-plus, but it worked.
The exam is Drago and your husband is Balboa.That exam killed Apollo; the old methods of studying will not defeat it.Identify the problem, acknowledge that it’s big, change up your methods of trying to solve it, and schedule everything so he can cross it off and feel accomplishment as the exam gets closer.
And afterwards, no matter what happens, the two of you should take a weekend away by yourselves and recharge.
Good luck!Tell us what happens.We’re rooting for him.
Dear Sars,
I have known my best friend, Ann, for most of our lives. We met at the age of two, played dress-up and Barbies, fought over stupid stuff when we were tweens, and made it through high school without too many bumps. She’s always been the person I could call for anything, and vice versa, and we’ve always known everything that’s going on in each other’s lives.
We don’t mince words with each other, either. We love each other enough that one of us is bound to say, “I’m sure that guy is a great kisser, but…he treats you like shit, frankly,” or, “Dude, can I just say…no? Because no. Because you can do better than that,” or, “Hon, you’re being kind of a bitch, here. I will totally back up your bitchiness if that’s how you want to handle this situation, but surely there’s some other way to deal with this,” and, of course, “As a matter of fact, those pants do make you look fat. They’re cut weird. Try something with less of all that…whatever…that’s going on in the front.”
We both want what’s best for the other, so usually we just come out and say what’s on our mind, but now we’re in a situation where I don’t know WHAT to say.
After high school, I went to the community college for a year and Ann, who has never felt like college was the thing for her, ran around the country helping out her parents with their self-started business. Okay, that’s fine, whatever. I encouraged her to take classes and get a general degree at least, because you really can’t be competitive in any job market without one, but when she made it clear that it wasn’t going to happen, I let it go. Cue up to now, when I’m preparing to go to a four-year university, looking for apartments and jobs and stuff in that town, while Ann is making wedding plans.
WEDDING plans. She’s eighteen, and nine months younger than me, and getting married! She’s been dating this guy for two months, and they’re getting married in two more. Her parents are okey-dokey with it because they got married after a two-week courtship, and “don’t believe in long engagements,” but the last of their daughters to do that ended up with an abusive husband, three kids, and a messy divorce.
I really think this is a bad idea, and it’s not going to work out, but I’m trying to look on the bright side. Her fiancé is wonderful from what I’ve seen and heard of him. He seems to have a good head on his shoulders, he clearly loves her to death, he has a great-paying job, he’s funny and charming, and he gets the weird way Ann and I are with each other.
When I first found out about the wedding, the next time Ann and I saw each other it was with her fiancé. We talked about their plans quite amicably for a while, and when he went to the bathroom I said, “Babe, this is me being supportive. I don’t think this is a good idea, I don’t think you’ve known each other long enough, and I don’t know if it’ll work out, but I think you have enough people telling you that. I’m just going to be happy for you, okay? And if you want me to talk you out of it, let me know.” She said, “Thanks, I’ll keep it in mind,” and we went along our merry way.
I REALLY don’t think this is a good idea. And I realize that half the reason I don’t want her to get married so young is because I’m going to college, moving away from my family, and learning to be independent, and I want that for her, too. My boyfriend and I have made the unspoken agreement not to even discuss marriage until we’re finished with college. But I also realize that what I want out of life isn’t necessarily what she wants, and I should respect that as her best friend. I’m trying to be happy for her, because I don’t object to her fiancé as much as I object to the rapidity of the union.
So, here is my question. Since I succinctly voiced my misgivings, and she politely but firmly ignored them, is this the point where I let the issue lie? Because this isn’t like anything we’ve ever been through together before. It’s not like when we were eight and she was hogging the best Barbie clothes and we calmly discussed it and came to an agreement about who got the pink miniskirt when the other one had the blue dress. This is adult stuff, and we’re both barely adults, and I need some guidance.
Should I boycott the wedding? Refuse to be in the wedding party? Noisily and angrily protest until she comes to her senses? Or should I buy the bridesmaid’s dress, buy a gift, help plan the shower, and be happy for her, all the while quietly opening up my schedule to be her crying shoulder a year from now when things don’t work out?
Sincerely,
I Want To Be Nine Again, It Was Easier
Dear Nine,
I think you’ve done everything you can do, or should do.The issue here is that the problem of her age, and the rapidity of the courtship, is the problem.Her fiancé doesn’t treat her badly, he’s not cheating on her, he’s not shiftless or a horse’s ass.My personal feeling is that, a lot of times, you won’t see that stuff until a few months in, so three months is really the minimum time you want to elapse before you make any big decisions about moving in together or getting married.
But that’s me, and you know, this could work out.If they’re getting married because she’s pregnant, that’s a different conversation, but if it’s just going quickly, well, it’s not a guaranteed kiss of death.You’ve said your piece, and she’s heard you, so it’s time to get behind the shit and push.Support her and celebrate with her; keep your eyes open, sure, but unless you see evidence that he’s a shitheel, or she gets really defensive with you (which it doesn’t sound like she has), proceed as though the crying shoulder won’t be called into action.You could find ways to suggest that she slow down the planning phase a bit, and take her time with the prep if she’s that confident in the relationship, but don’t press the point; this is her life, and if it’s a bad call, she has to live and learn with it, not you.
Sars, I…okay.I know the answer to this one.I just need someone else to say it out loud for me.
I have been friends-with-benefits with my ex for over ten years now (counting the time we were “officially” together).This, right or wrong, has included the entire time that he’s been married (yeah, I know.Save the judging).However, when I found out his wife was pregnant, I drew the line and cut off all but platonic relations with him.
The thing is, he knows me pretty well, and didn’t tell me about her pregnancy until I was to have dinner with the two of them — at about six and a half months.He also failed to tell me she’d given birth until about two months post-delivery, despite the fact that his wife handed him a list of people to contact which included my name.
So far, so what, right?I’m the dirty mistress, I don’t have any right to be involved in the birth of their child!The thing is, I am a friend of the family — I was part of the bump in/out crew for their wedding, I housesit for them and babysit their animals when they’re away.I helped unwrap presents, write thank-you notes, and alphabetise the bookshelves when they moved house.I feel like I’ve been a pretty good friend to them as a couple, and to him in particular (aside from the obvious betrayal issues, which are…not really the issue here).
I feel like he knew where I would draw a line on what was going on between us, and actively put off the time he would have to hear “no, I won’t be a part of that.”That’s fine — I made my bed, and nobody sleeps with someone else’s husband thinking he’s an honest and true guy, and that everything will end well.I cut him off — no calls, no messages, no emails.It wasn’t that there could be nothing sexual between us any more so much as the fact that, as a friend, I thought I deserved better than to be left out of the loop.The reason it’s all come to a head right now is that it’s his child’s first birthday in a month, and he’s invited me to the party.
I’m sort of stunned.I wasn’t good enough to be told about the birth, but now there’s the possibility of presents, I’m back in the gang? So I guess my question is, can I say “Oh, you’re fucking kidding yourself, Brad, I won’t be there, tell Janet I said hi”?I backed off on our whole thing for a reason — I won’t sleep with someone else’s dad — and I don’t want to get dragged back into proximity because I’m too nice to refuse the invitation.Plus, it’s better for the family if I stay the hell out of it, isn’t it?
I’m just really not sure how to refuse this without it (a) looking like I’m sulking because I don’t sleep with him anymore or (b) looking like an uncivilised bitch.Either way, I can’t go.I’ve been in this situation for years, and finally found a line I wouldn’t cross, and managed to cut him off, which…not easy.I don’t want to go back.So, I need to say no.How?
Looking For A Graceful Way Out Of A Mess Of Her Own Making
Dear Mess,
“I’m sorry, I can’t make it.”No elaboration.
Who cares what it “looks like”?Because I can tell you what it “looked like” when you involved yourself in their home life to an overly familial degree, and inserted yourself into the wedding planning and wrap-up — it looked pitiful.And I’m not actually judging you when I say that, although I could do without the snotty preemptive instruction not to.
I’m pointing out to you that you still hold out hope, and that it’s years past time for you to stop doing that.You will deny doing that, I suspect; you will insist that it’s about being polite, about him letting you move on, and so on.”It’s better for the family.”Well, I don’t think you really give shit one about the family; it’s just something you say to justify how angry and ripped-off you feel, and I don’t blame you one bit for those emotions, because you slept with the guy for a decade, but he married, and stayed married to, someone else, and you aren’t getting that time back.
But: you slept with the guy for a decade, and he married, and stayed married to, someone else.The thank-you notes, the house-sitting…that wasn’t about staying friends.That was about staying available so that he could “come to his senses” and leave his wife for you.That was never going to happen, you wouldn’t have wanted that guy anyway in my view, and you probably know this intellectually, but the larger point is that, emotionally, on some level, you’re still hoping for that outcome.If you’d really moved on, you’d ignore the invitation, or just kibosh it concisely and get on with your day.
But you’re still worried that they’ll think you’re an “uncivilized bitch.”You aren’t, necessarily, but you’re over-involved.You’re obsessing about the etiquette of when he should have told you his wife was pregnant as though the important bit of information there isn’t that he…has a wife.You still think he owes you something, or that you can get some satisfaction from him; whether you know it or not, you believe that the long-term end to the situation will have the guy in your life still.
It won’t; it can’t.You just can’t see these people anymore on purpose, ever again.Act like you don’t care what anyone thinks until the day it’s actually true; if he thinks you’re sulking, well, you are, kind of, and it cannot be your problem what he thinks anymore.The issue is not how to refuse it; it’s refusing it, every time it’s offered, forever.
Tags: Barbie boys (and girls) etiquette friendships Ivan Drago Rocky Balboa the fam workplace
Sorry to double post, I just saw this:
Skye – Why is it girls who were enticed into bed via lies about relationships always want revenge by telling the girlfriend? If a dude lied about his job or how much money he makes to get you in bed, would you write to advice columns to ask if you can tell his boss? Just curious…
Either way, a dude lied to get in your pants and treated you like a piece instead of a person; I get that you feel cheapened and disrespected, but, you know. Call him a loser, step out of his reach, and move on. It’s a commentary on his character, not yours.
Girlfriend will find out in her own time. Let it go.
Skye: It’s very tempting, and it’s certainly nothing like Mess, what with the one time when you didn’t know he was with someone you didn’t know, versus ten years when you knew he was married to someone who thought you were her friend. You know, so that’s a little bit different.
Definitely not the picture. Definitely DEFINITELY not the picture via Facebook. Too theatrical; smacks of being about yourself. (I’m not criticizing; that’s how I’d feel, too.) The interesting question is whether you should contact her in some calm manner and share this information, simply because she presumably thinks he’s monogamous and you know he isn’t. I tend to think no, but on the other hand, there are health issues with people who are not monogamous when you think they are, and there’s whether someone deserves to know she’s being made a fool of…I tend to think no, but your question is a much closer one.
Sars,
can we have a Mary Ann Madden type contest to answer the question,
“What to you do when a loser ex sends you a picture of his penis?”
“There is no pony here” is AWESOME.
And “It’s amazing what a guy will remember if there’s a nipple next to it!” is my internal tagline for Tomato Nation, starting now.
To Nine:
I know you don’t really want to boycott your best friend’s wedding. This is maybe less about the wedding than the change in lifestyle (as others have previously mentioned). Your whole life you have been on the same path with her, and want to continue it into the next phase, and you’re sad that it’s not going to happen that way.
My best friend, funny enough, also an Ann (assuming you used a real name, and this is why your letter got my attention), married when she was 19, later divorced and remarried, while I waited until my 30s to get married. When my friend did file for divorce, she moved in with me for awhile.
Our circumstances changed many times over the 32 years (and counting) of our friendship, but we never lost our ability to pick up the phone and just talk about “what’s happening now” even if it’s only a few times a year these days. I hope that you will always have that bond with your friend, too. Just try to be there for her regardless of your life circumstances.
“And I’m not actually judging you when I say that, although I could do without the snotty preemptive instruction not to.”
Wow, that was EXACTLY what I thought when I read Mess’s snippy little “(yeah, I know. Save the judging)” line.
…And another thing: It’s totally not my blog, but I figure anyone who WRITES TO ASK FOR ADVICE on an obviously skeevy situation like that, automatically forfeits the non-judging. It’s sort of part of the unwritten TOS or something. I mean, if I write for advice on anything, I’m asking for whatever I get. Otherwise, you’re sort of flashing somebody and then getting all pissy when they say “EWW”.
You’re not the only one who wants to show Girlfriend the Penis Pic–he wants you to as well. If you do the Facebook move, Girlfriend will break up with him, and as a bonus, be mad at you! Everything he wants, with none of the adult conversation or behavior!
He’s the tool here, don’t let him use you as one.
Hey Skye –
That guy’s an ass, but I don’t think Facebooking the photo to the girlfriend will make you feel better or be good for her. If you’re really worried about her health, or think it’s fair that she knows what her bf is up to, then you’ll need to find a more personal way to tell her. On the phone is fine, and you don’t have to apologize, because as far as you knew, he was single when it happened.
I’m not saying you have to take her out to dinner and a movie, then hold her hand and tell her what happened, but can you imagine checking your Facebook and being like “Hmmm…Jenny updated her status, Bill sent me a hatching gift, and Skye sent me a picture of my boyfriend’s penis.”
“There is no pony here” is definitely going into my personal lexicon.
@Nine, I too have a little sister who married at nineteen. As horrified as I was at the time (I’m seven years older than her, and still felt like I was too young to get married), eight years and two adorable kidlets later, they’re still a great, happy couple. They both still had growing up to do when they tied the knot, but I think the fact that they grew together has a lot to do with the strength of their marriage. As for the rapidity of it all, my husband and I knew that we were going to get married by the fifth date. For purely financial reasons, we ended up waiting two (agonizingly long) years, but it didn’t take us long at all to figure out how right we were for each other.
@Gas – I sympathize. My husband went back to school last year and I took on a lot of extra responsibility to allow him to be able to focus on his studies and succeed, and as much as I want that for us both, it’s exhausting to do all of that AND be his cheerleader and pillar of support when he gets weary and self-doubty. In short: you rock. And congrats on your husband passing his written.
@Mess – I’m not saying this to be snarky, but I think you should consider getting some therapy. And that’s all I have to say about that.
To Nine: I have a parable here about a similar story. I’m using a pseudonym to keep a promise I made to myself.
I was similarly unsure about my best friend’s fiance once. We were a little older than you and your friend, and she had even expressed some doubts about him when they were dating. They moved in together awfully fast, and he seemed to kind of avoid me and it creeped me out a little, so I had my reservations when she announced they were getting married and asked me to be a bridesmaid, and came thisclose to asking her if she was sure that’s what she wanted to do. But I decided not to — because I realized I didn’t know what is between the two of them, and I decided to trust her to know better than I did what she needed. I instead decided to just be ready to have a futon handy for when she left him, because I was convinced it would happen.
They just celebrated their 13th anniversary. Their son is two.
As grateful as I am to be proven wrong, I am even MORE happy and grateful that I NEVER, EVER told my friend what I thought, so we would never have had that uncomfortable conversation between us. At the time I decided to just keep my mouth shut and be ready to be there, I also resolved that my friend would NEVER know that I had that kind of doubt until there actually was a need for it. And now that I have been proven wrong, I am so grateful that I didn’t also have to repair a friendship as well.
Go to the wedding. Support your friend. Trust her judgement, the way you always have. Life’s already decided what it’s going to throw at you all, and it’s not your job to anticipate what that’s going to be, but rather to help her cope with what does happen.
it really confuses me the way people here are acting as if the cheating husband/boyfriend shouldn’t be “ratted out”. as if, oh my, we must respect his feelings in this respect. um, no. if my SO was cheating on me and hadn’t seen fit to tell me for _years_, i’d want to be told about it. i don’t care from whom, but i would want to know ASAP so i could dump his ass and quit wasting my time with him. i’m aaaaaaall for the ratting out. i don’t even remotely see where it would be some form of revenge on the mistress’s part (re: Mess) to inform the wife of what a total evil little shit her husband was. the wife (and now mom) totally deserves to know so she can toss his ass to the curb.
my opinion on this, by the way, wouldn’t change if the cheating spouse/partner was female. cheating is pretty much the ultimate betrayal of trust in a relationship and is usually a deal-breaker. as such, it deserves to be exposed as soon as possible.
Nine,
One other thing to add in addition to everyone who mentioned that it seems like some of your fear about the marriage hurting your friend is fear about it changing your friendship. While no one can guarantee that this friendship will last forever, or that the changes won’t be difficult and scary at times, I can say that I’ve been amazed to realize that as much as I have, at times, felt left out of the new lives of my married (house-owning, baby-having) friends, they have at times been just as jealous of my life. If the connection is there, and both friends are willing to feed the friendship, there’s no reason you the friendship won’t last even if you are a free-wheeling college student in a new city and she’s a hometown married woman.
As for the marriage itself, eh. Statistics say she’s got a 50/50 shot of this one working out. In my experience (and, it appears, that of the other commenters), once your concerns have been raised, there’s nothing gained by pressing the issue, especially when the groom treats her well and she seems happy.
(@alayt) I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: she already knows. Penis Pic’s girlfriend might not, but Mess’s paramour’s wife certainly does. She has assessed the situation for herself and her child and has decided to stay. Perhaps that’s more than her husband deserves, but I’d be willing to bet that’s where she is. So Mess — for real … stay away from all of them and let the marriage evolve or unravel as it may, without your (continued) interference.
MrsHaley, I have to respectfully disagree that the wife definitely already knows. As one commenter expressed up above, her husband’s mistress was close enough to the family to have held her newborn child. I highly doubt a knowing wife would have allowed Mess to be invited to her child’s b-day celebration (not to mention the wedding, house-sitting, etc.) Deciding to stay is one thing, maintaining a casual friendship with the woman who screwed your husband for years is a whole other enchilada.
I agree with alayt somewhat. I would want someone to tell me. Anonymously would be best. I once worked with a guy who was cheating on his wife with another co-worker. I didn’t know the couple very well, but the wife came in often, and we always chatted and she was very sweet. The mistress would shamelessly attend their house parties, act friendly and so on. EVERYONE knew and kept their mouths shut because it wasn’t their business. That has to be one of the worst things about discovering a betrayal–thinking about all the people who knew and didn’t say a word to help you get out of such a humiliating situation. (side note: watch Scenes from a Marriage: Liv Ullman captures the emotions of this realization perfectly).
I always wanted to send the wife a gentle anonymous letter, human being to human being. I never did, of course, but if we had been better friends I might have, and then would have been there for her through the aftermath.
I’m not in any way suggesting that Mess should be the one to do this. I agree with all other posters–she needs to stay the hell away from this family and get counseling.
MrsHaley – I don’t know if I agree with that. Certainly, many wives have inklings of mistresses or even more firm knowledge that they suppress for whatever reason, and they choose not to dig deeper and stay in the relationship anyway. But I don’t think it’s true of all wives/girlfriends in all relationships. She may NOT know, especially if Mess has kept herself in their life as a supposed “friend”. If you really trust your spouse, you won’t think much of it when he and his “good pal” head out for a round of golf or whatever, and he obviously doesn’t want to get caught or he would have been by now. I have no comment on whether it would be better to tell or not tell – I personally probably wouldn’t – but I have to disagree that she definitely knows.
And I can’t remember who posted it up there, but if Mess actually believes that she is a friend to this couple or this woman, she does indeed need a boatload of therapy.
PS – I don’t really care that I’m not supposed to judge you, Mess; I’m doing it anyway. Kind of how you weren’t supposed to sleep with someone else’s husband, but did anyway.
Becky…
The only reason for Facebooking is that I would have no other way of getting in touch with her. I don’t know her e-mail address or phone number. And I wouldn’t be like “Here’s a penis! Recognize it??” or anything like that… but I guess I would certainly be inviting drama into my life. I’m 98% sure his girlfriends has NO idea that he’s been anything other than the best boyfriend ever. She’s very young (22 to his 31) and seems very naive, from what I can tell.
MrsHaley: Don’t be so sure.
I agree with alayt, fwiw, and wish that someone had told me, not least because I get so goddamned sick and tired of hearing people say, “Oh, surely you KNEW and just CHOSE to stay in that situation.” Way to blame the victim, yo. Why not, “Oh, surely you KNEW he was going to rape you at the end of your date, and you just CHOSE to go out with him anyway”? SOMETIMES WE DON’T KNOW. Okay? Quit blaming the cheatee.
My own MOTHER knew, in my situation, and I had no clue. SHOULD I have known? Probably. I was painfully naive – and more importantly, he was a VERY good liar and had friends backing up his stories and covering for him. His work schedule, mine, friends setting up alibis for him (ahead of time, even!) – it was so easy for him to hide it all, and I had no reason to doubt, until it was too late.
Would I know if it happened today? Possibly; I’m a hell of a lot more suspicious and cynical and skeptical than I was then. Did I know? NO I DID NOT. And I DO wish someone had told me. It would not only have saved me months of anguish and self-recrimination, but would have gotten me a much better divorce settlement.
Unless you KNOW the person in question, and that person has TOLD you, “I know my SO is cheating on me, but hey, this is the life I want,” throwing out that, “Oh, she knows” line is bullshit.
Sars, I may have vented this already – or I might have just typed it and deleted it, I don’t remember; feel free to reject it. It just makes my blood fucking BOIL when people blame the LAST person who should be blamed in this type of situation. We wouldn’t say that a rape or spousal abuse victim “knew what was coming and chose her path” so why do so many women – and it’s ALWAYS women, I’ve never heard a man say that – feel so comfortable blaming the person who is (probably) LEAST to blame? Might as well say “Well, it’s her fault if he’s cheating; she should give him more sex, then he wouldn’t stray.”
I thought the people who told me “when you know, you just know” were full of shit until it happened to me. I didn’t get married right away, but I met The Mister I was 19 and we both knew within the first week or two that This Is The Real Thing. Not saying Ann is in a situation like mine, but it does happen.
Anyway, here’s some advice to Nine that I don’t think anyone else has offered: IF their marriage/engagement/relationship does fall apart, DO NOT say anything that even vaguely resembles “I told you so” or “I tried to tell you”. IF she is indeed making a mistake, I guarantee you she is at least dimly aware of that now. Telling her you told her so won’t accomplish anything positive and may destroy the friendship between the two of you.
The one time I was cheated on, and I’m not sure it even counts because it was high school, but anyway, I had no idea. And he fuckin’ super-sized that order of cheating, too (three people, including a close friend of mine, and he totally got on her at the post-prom with, like, my entire class present), but if another friend hadn’t let it slip, I never would have suspected. And she only said something because, in her words, “I just assumed you knew.”
I think people sometimes assume, just generally, that everyone knows what they know and sees what they see, and more specifically to this situation, Second Friend assumed that one of the six bazillion other people who saw my boyfriend frenching Close Friend at the post-prom while I was asleep would have ratted him to me already. I probably would have assumed the same thing in her shoes; he really was that blatant. But I wasn’t looking out for it, so I didn’t see it.
Not that this makes cheatees feel better (it made me feel like shit…seriously, three dozen witnesses and nobody tells me?), but you have to look at it from the third parties’ perspective. And I think you don’t want to parallel it too closely with sexual assault, either. I get that they’re both violations and the victim shouldn’t be blamed, but that rhetoric is perhaps a bit stern.
Nine, I think your concerns about this fast engagement are legitimate. Ann has only known this guy for two months, so chances are they don’t really know each other at all. Of course he loves her to death right now. They’re still in the throes of new passion, and everything is fabulous.
I’ll echo what pretty much everyone else has said. You told her how you feel, you can’t change her mind, and the important thing is that you don’t abandon her. Don’t skip the wedding. It would crush her and the damage might be irreparable. She’s going to need you in the future, either for a shoulder to cry on, or to plan a 25th wedding anniversary party.
Mess: Honey, get a grip. I’m convinced you wrote to Sars hoping (irrationally, I would add) that she would sooth your hurt feelings. Have you ever read The Vine before?
Several people have told you to stay away from this guy because you deserve better. I think you need to stay away from him because his wife deserves better. In fact, he should stay the hell away from her too. She’d be better off without him.
I’m not sure how you got the idea that had any right to be part of this couple’s life, because you are as disconnected from their life as is possible. You were, in fact, a way for that rat bastard of a ex-boyfriend of yours to get away from his life with the woman he married. If it was his idea for you to start hanging out with both of them, you should have run so fast he couldn’t even see you moving. Because he’s twisted beyond understanding.
Thinking again about Nine’s issue with her friend, the ultra-short engagement isn’t necessarily the kiss of doom. I had known my husband for less than three months before we were engaged, and we’ll have been married for ten years next March. Just like J.P. Vonderhaar’s situation, it was a no-brainer (and I was only 22 at the time). And the young age thing isn’t necessarily a drama either – my little sister met her husband at 17 and they’re still very happy together, 13 years later.
It’s become normal for people to be together for a few years before getting married, and most people tend to be mid-20s or older when they do that these days. But deviating from the norm doesn’t automatically mean that things won’t work out.
Wow, e, I’m not blaming the wife at all. In fact, I’m giving her a good dose of respect and the benefit of the doubt about the choices she makes for herself and her family. Assuming she would kick him to the curb if she “found out” is kind of backing her into a corner. She has the right to conduct her life as she chooses and she may choose to keep on with him because she sees the possibility of fixing it becuase she loves him.
I knew I’d get flak for saying she knows, but I’m sticking by it. In the context of marriage, even if the cheat-ee doesn’t know the name / dates / facts about the affair, they know something is up, they sense something is wrong and they are dealing with it the way they choose — avoidance, denial, whatever. Maybe you’re the exception, e, and I’m sure there are many, but I think the vast majority of married people who have been cheated upon are just not that surprised when everything becomes clear.
@Keight – I think there’s a world of difference between “enticing a girl into bed by pretending you’re not in a relationship” and “enticing a girl into bed by pretending you make more money than you do.” First of all, women who get enticed into bed by visions of dollars are thinking of it as a financial transaction, not a romantic one. Second of all, a man who is already in a relationship is not free, in the opinions of most women, to form another relationship. Most women don’t want to be used, especially sexually. Most women don’t want to find themselves having inadvertantly trespassed on someone else’s relationship. A woman who is having sex with a guy will often be under the impression that she is, herself, either participating in a relationship, or at least maybe forming the beginning of a relationship. The cheater who sleeps with her not only impairs the way she sees herself (whether it’s as someone who wouldn’t do that sort of thing, or would be able to tell that the guy wasn’t free, or just because it makes her feel stupid as well as used), but, if it goes on for an extensive period before she finds out, keeps her from finding and forming a relationship with someone who is really free to be with her, because she herself is being faithful to Mr. Cheat. Why shouldn’t she screw up his relationship? Why should he be happy, when he’s made her unhappy? And why should he be free to continue to cheat on his significant other, who very likely does not know he’s cheating on her? These days it’s a real health risk to the partner of the cheater, and she also deserves the opportunity to decide if (a) yes, he’s a lying cheating bastard, but due to extenuating circumstances, I’ll stay with him; or (b) I think I’d like to find someone who truly loves me and won’t cheat on me. The woman who rats out the guy who lied his way into her bed may want revenge, but there’s also a certain element of identification, too, as in “I would want to know if I were being cheated on.”
Are you by any chance a guy, Keight? Your initial question makes me wonder, that’s all.
And Sars: Yes, high school does too count! You were just as hurt and miserable as any adult would be in that situation, and I’m sorry it happened. I hope he’s bald by now.
@Skye – if you think she’s being naively deceived, I think you should tell her. If you want revenge on the guy, don’t get involved. I’m trying to put myself in her shoes, here – getting an angry “LOOK! Be shamed that you could love such as this!” would…not be best. But a genuine “hey, Dude took me for a ride, THEN told me about you, THEN continued to date you. Do with it what you will, but here’s the proof, here’s the whole picture, and I wish you well” could be perhaps given. I was 22 a very short time ago, and that kind of news would’ve crushed me, but it also would’ve helped me move ON in my life.
Perhaps the Facebook message should be more like “This is who I am, here’s my number, we need to talk.” Not so much with the penis picture.
(Complete and utter side note: whilst flipping through pics on my sister’s phone, I came upon a picture of her fiance’s endowment. He is now my brother in law. Tee!)
Krissa: This is why I don’t let my parents get their hands on my phone, ever.
Re: telling the wife/girlfriend: I think it’s a good thing–not an obligation, but a good thing–to tell the person being cheated on, mainly because of the disease angle. This isn’t 1975, where being cheated on resulted in heartbreak and maybe a four-week course of antibiotics; the party being cheated on needs to know that they should really get tested for everything ever, and then, at the very least, insist that their partner wear a condom.
You might be disease-free…but if a guy’s trying to mess around with you after a night of drinks, he’s probably messing around with a couple other people as well.
And wow, I sound very High School Health Teacher there.
“it really confuses me the way people here are acting as if the cheating husband/boyfriend shouldn’t be “ratted out”. as if, oh my, we must respect his feelings in this respect. um, no.”
“Um,” that’s not why I’m not in favor of the affair-having “friend” telling the wife.
The relationship is over. Whatever the wife knows, she knows, and whatever she doesn’t know, she doesn’t know. She has a year-old child, and the father of that child is someone who cheated on her for ten years. That cannot be changed. Mess does not have this woman’s best interests at heart, to say the very least. No one who does not have this woman’s best interests at heart has any business making the decision about whether to throw a bomb into the middle of her family over a relationship that is now in the past. Maybe the wife would be better off. Maybe the wife would not be better off. My point is that it is not Mess’s place to make that decision for the wife. “I would want to know” doesn’t solve it. The question is whether this wife would want to know, and we simply don’t have any way of answering that question.
I think Mess needs to stay far away with her mouth shut.
Nine, my sister (M) got engaged 11 days after meeting the man who became her husband. He was still married (!), but was in the process of getting divorced from his wife. Oh, and he worked at the company my sister had just joined as a new employee – he had been there for more than 10 years, so if the relationship didn’t work out, there was no question who would be leaving the workplace. M was in her 30s, not 18, but there was an impulsive quality to the relationship.
After I picked up my jaw from the floor, I expressed my concerns to M that she was rushing into this, and that this could backfire on her not just personally but professionally if the relationship didn’t work out. I said this one time, and I never said it again. Unfortunately, our other sister (J) didn’t take that tactic, and J kept questioning whether M getting married to this guy was a good decision, that they were rushing into marriage, and that getting involved with a co-worker was a bad idea. J said this to M, to me, and to our parents. Repeatedly.
M just celebrated her 11th anniversary with her husband, they have two kids, and a great relationship. M’s still bitter about J’s attitude and comments toward her husband, and it’s definitely colored how they interact with each other.
You never know how a marriage will work out, so just be her friend, and keep an eye on how your friend is doing – that’s the best way to support her.
When I told my sister that my boyfriend and I were planning to get married her immediate reaction was to say “Oh shit”…out loud and try to suggest she was concerned by how quick etc. Although things did not turn out well, I still wish that she had never reacted that way. It made me feel like I was an idiot who couldn’t know what was best for myself and that she was in some way smarter than me and didn’t respect me.
Her doubts regarding whether my now ex was good for me or I was doing ok were repeated many times thereafter and the only result was that it was harder for me to talk to her when things really did fall apart. Friends who went with “you made the best decisions you could and there is nothing wrong with following your heart but how can we pick you up now” approach helped ease the ache without me also worrying about how stupid they thought I was in addition to being devastated about my life imploding.
The whole “don’t you know better, shouldn’t you know better, how is it possible you didn’t know” thought track is one best kept to yourself.
I feel you, eprairiegrrl. My mom actually said “I just can’t be happy about this right now, and you can’t expect me to.” It was one phrase that expressed several months of less direct communication that all said “I don’t respect your choices.” Hurt like hell then, and it’s still really painful now. To a lesser degree, it happened with a close friend, too. My marriage is great, suckas, but it hurts that I find myself censoring what I say to either of them so that they don’t ever find a toehold for their he’s-not-right-for-you campaign.
All of this is to say that eprairiegrll is right – Nine, you have to be very careful with this kind of thing, as it will continue to pollute *your* relationship with your friend regardless of the outcome of the marriage if you misstep. It’s a bell you can’t unring, that’s for goddamn sure.
Gas, my wonderful loving boyfriend and I would both like to go back to school and have started making plans to do so, and talking about how to support each other when we do it (financially, emotionally, etc.). We’ve been together for 10 months, and your story of loving and supporting someone in the long term is very inspiring! I hope that our relationship continues to grow into something like the one you have. Congratulations on getting thus far, and good luck to you all in the future!
Nine, I’m 31 now and am still best friends with my best friend since we were nine. You have a right to be concerned about her, and a right to voice that concern. You also have a responsibility, if you want to maintain the friendship, to be the best friend you can be to her, which means loving and supporting her in her decisions, no matter how much you may disagree with those decisions. Think about if the situation were reversed…if you were about to do something she thought was a mistake, you’d want her to be honest about it, but you’d also want her love and support before, during and after the mistake.
You are both relatively young, and your friendship, no matter what decisions you make, is about to change in a big way. My bestie and I went to college on different sides of the country. Our friendship ebbed and flowed, grew apart (which was difficult) and then came back together. I got married after graduation fairly impulsively and she didn’t agree with it but she came to the wedding and stuck by me, and was there right by my side through my divorce 5 years later. We are closer than ever and treasure each other’s friendship more than ever. Even though you fear the changes, and they will happen and can be painful, every relationship has cycles, and the best you can do is stick with each other as best you can and let the cycles happen.
Mess, it’s all been said, really. I just find myself quite shocked that you framed the letter as an etiquette question. Denying their birthday party invitation? “Clutch the pearls, how rude!” Sleeping with a married man? “That’s not an issue here, don’t judge me!” …Wow.
@Tarn – Wow, I thought I was the only person who says “Clutch the Pearls!” Cool.
Everyone has already said all they need to say to Mess. She needs to stay away from that whole situation, especially now that she finally realizes that she is being used (for a baby gift this time, for God-only-knows-what for the 10 years prior). Don’t go to the party, don’t tell the wife, just don’t.
Skye – not sure what it’s worth, but I would tell the girlfriend. The situation isn’t like Mess’s case, where the woman’s built a life with this dude and has a kid now and everything. This girl is still young and has plenty of time to find someone better. Don’t send the pic right away though; mention you have proof if she wants to see it, and do warn her what the proof is before she sees it if she does ask to see it.
Skye,
just curious – what makes you think the girlfriend would RECOGNIZE the penis if you sent the photo to her? Is it that distinctive? Sorry, not the point, but I’m thinking “would it stand up in court?” (no, I didn’t mean it THAT way)
Serendipity,
Well, you can see parts of his bedroom in the picture, as well as his legs and feet. (His feet are somewhat distinctive… his penis is nothing special.) Also, I took a screen capture of the email, so that the date and his e-mail address are shown. (I did this, in the event that I decided to send it, he wouldn’t be able to pretend that he sent me the picture two years ago when we dated.) It also shows on the bottom of the picture that it was sent by iphone (which he wouldn’t have owned two years ago.) The evidence is prepared!
Isabel,
What I am most concerned about, is dealing with him if I do this. I’m not in the mood for a confrontation with him, and being in the same town, I am likely to see him or other people we know in common eventually. I don’t want to come off looking like a woman scorned. Pros and cons.
Skye, for what it’s worth, I know you’re hurt and angry, but do this and you WILL look like a woman scorned. And I can’t imagine there not being a confrontation with him if you do it. Just my two cents.
@LaBellaDonna
No I am not a guy. My question began with “why do girls” because I don’t see many letters from scorned guys saying “can I tell her boyfriend?” but I see a whole lot of the opposite.
“First of all, women who get enticed into bed by visions of dollars are thinking of it as a financial transaction, not a romantic one.”
That isn’t what I meant. I mean women looking for someone with common goals for the future getting duped by men pretending to be someone they aren’t. My friends run up against the “long term relationship guy you are looking for just long enough to get you in bed” guy a lot. I don’t see how this is any “better” or less hurtful than lying about being single. I would feel any guy who lied about himself to sleep with me was using me.
I have been lied to by a guy who was cheating, and by a guy who– well, I never could figure out why he lied. I think he didn’t want me to know he did pot. It didn’t matter to me WHY they lied. So I don’t understand why people want revenge on one type of lying and not the other. It’s equally bad to me. That’s all. (I didn’t care that he did pot – I cared that he constantly lied about where he was and what he was doing and who he was with.)
Maybe I wasn’t being clear but my response to Skye was based on the fact that she admitted she kind of wants revenge. She presented it sort of as, “this happened to me, I want to do THIS in retaliation”. Well, if it’s about you, revenge will not fix or unhurt you or protect you from this in the future, so let it go. If it’s not about you and is actually about the girlfriend and worrying that she’s naïve or in danger, that’s different.
Different, but not what you asked.
Skye – I agree with Jaybird that even if you frame it as “I’m telling you for your own good” to the gf, you will look like the woman scorned.
If I were being cheated on, I would expect and want a friend or family member to tell me – but I wouldn’t necessarily expect the OTHER WOMAN to track me down and tell me. It seems most people “would want to know”, and maybe Dude’s gf would too, but I would say you don’t technically owe her that. Whether SOMEONE should tell her is a different question from whether YOU should, JMO.
I’ve decided to NOT send the photo. At least for now. I’m going to hold on to it though, in the event she finds out something and approaches me. Or, should he ever give me a hard time, I can go to Kinkos, have 500 copies made and plaster them all over town. (Kidding… mostly.)
The comments re: Mess have been enormously satisfying, but I’m surprised there’s no reply from Mess herself by now. Whatever mechanisms she’s put in place to be able to live with herself must have broken down pretty thoroughly if she’s reading this page. Mess, ten years is a horribly long time to devote yourself to someone/something and have nothing to show for it at the end. And, the reason you’ve given for cutting him off is twisted, but nevermind…it worked for you. Let it be.
I do have a similar situation, to be honest. Yesterday I ran into my ex (the one who got away/thank goodness/you know what I mean). We broke up 12 years ago and I haven’t seen him for a decade, but he hasn’t changed a bit. The weird part? Now we’re neighbors. He and his wife live not even a block from the house my husband and I settled into barely a month ago. The “mess” part? Back when the wife was the girlfriend, he and I had ex-sex. And, if I hadn’t moved out of state and met my husband shortly after, it wouldn’t have happened only once. In my mind, she was the interloper, not me – even though they’d been together a year at that point. So I can understand how it started for you, and even (dimly) how it went on so long, but really? Enough is more than enough.
Mess, you MUST let go now. I promise it’s not too late, although I imagine it feels that way. Yes, you wasted a huge chunk of your life and I’m sorry but that time is gone forever. It will never be a happy memory or a story for the grandkids, and there’s absolutely no way to mitigate, salvage, redeem or ignore the basically horrible things you’ve chosen to do. But if you stop now, it WILL get better in time. You CAN learn to respect yourself again.
*PS: it’s silly of me to poke another hole in your story, but: if you saw her at 6 1/2 months, why exactly would you be surprised to hear 5 months later that the baby had been born? Again, if finding fault with his friendship skills was the only way you could talk yourself out of him a year ago -so be it- but it’s time for you examine why you’re still lying to yourself. And, PPS: the birthday gift he’s hoping for isn’t a Fisher-Price toy. Wake up!
Hey, if anyone’s still reading this – he passed! Well, half of it, anyway. He still has to resit physiology (both written and oral exams) next March and April but now that he has passed pharmacology he knows he can do it and has regained both his confidence and enthusiasm for study. Thanks again for all your support and suggestions, I really appreciate it. cheers!
Yay! Thanks for sharing the happy news, Denise!