The Vine: December 2, 2009
Dear Sars,
I’m looking for a great self-help book that can teach me how to deal with difficult people. Specifically, my sister-in-law Carrie.
If I spend too much time trying to describe her, it will only make me upset.I’ll write a short list of incidents to help you get a (sour, bitter, foul) taste, and perhaps you guys can identify her specific flavor of “difficult.”
1. She once told my family that we were terrible people who obviously don’t love her, because we never call her. I call her at least once a month. She has called me three times in 15 years.
2. She once screamed at me in the middle of Colonial Williamsburg that I was ruining her marriage, after I said, “Please be nice to my mom.”
3. She told my mother that she was a cold, evil woman and that’s why she has no friends. (My mother has been caring for my blind father for 20 years — it’s a little hard to take him to parties, right?)
4. Groom at wedding: “I’m so glad you could make it!”Carrie: “Well, you’re not making me FEEL very welcome.”
5. My dad made a remark about me living with a platonic male friend. She agreed, “Living with a boy is so wrong. I would never do that.” She secretly lived with my brother in college!
6. When my mom saw her first grand-baby for the very first time, she reached out to touch her and Carrie screamed, “WASH YOUR HANDS.”
7. Brother: “Remember when we used to beg mom for pretzels at Target?”Me: “Yeah, they were so good.” Carrie: “That is so rude. I never did that.” Brother: “You never begged your mom to buy you anything? Really?” Carrie (IN FRONT OF MY MOTHER): “I guess I was just raised right.”
8. Virtually everything that people say or do around her is punctuated with a negative comment “under her breath.”
9. She bought me Employee of the Month starring Dane Cook and Jessica Simpson for my birthday with zero irony, and returned The Office season two DVDs that I bought for her.
Oh, and the kicker:
10. I’m currently putting together a benefit concert to raise money as a surprise for my parents — my father had both of his legs amputated this year, and they will be spending thousands of dollars on lifts, prosthetics, and home care. When I told her about the concert, she said, “That’s pretty… tacky.”
When I have tried to stand up for myself or my parents (I am fiercely protective of them), or hint that I am hurt or offended, she will scream at me, yell at my brother, cry, throw things, etc.
I’m at the point where I don’t care if this affects my relationship with my brother. In fact, I am angry with him — he can fight the Taliban in Afghanistan, but can’t defend his own mother? (To be fair, Carrie is more frightening.) If it were up to me, I would write tell her exactly how I feel and write them out of my lives. However, she is the mother of the first and only grandchild in my family. And you can bet your ass that she is the type of woman who would use a baby as leverage.
So basically, I can’t do anything to change her. I can’t do anything to defend myself. All I can do is change the way that I react to her, and possibly learn how to forgive her for the things she has said in the past.
If it helps, she is an only child. I briefly studied psychology in college and self-diagnosed her behavior as Narcissistic Depravation.
Carrie is the largest — and sometimes only — factor of anger, stress and anxiety in my life. You’d think it’d be my father’s leg amputations, but he is so positive and hilarious that I can’t be sad around him at all. I’m not a self-help junkie, but the three S.H. books I’ve read (The Easy Way To Quit Smoking, The Feeling Good Handbook, and How To Win Friends and Influence People) have changed my life.
I would really love suggestions for a book with some tools/strategies/mantras about finding internal peace when dealing with her.
Sincerely,
She Makes Me So Mad, I Didn’t Even Change Her Name
Dear Mad,
That signature is an all-time Vine top five, so you’ve got that going for you, at least.Heh.
I don’t have any books to suggest, but my own diagnosis of Carrie is actually Attention Deprivation.It seems like anything that brings attention, positive or otherwise, to other people, or that serves as proof that other people are cared about and valued, threatens her on some primal level.I know how exhausting it is to deal with this personality up close, but looked at from a distance, it’s mostly pitiable — and mostly manageable.
You don’t specify how you react to her bitchy comments, but I suspect that she continues making them because they get a reaction, and because she perceives you as a threat to the attention she’s paid by the rest of the family, so the trick is to recalibrate your responses.Cultivate a pleasant, unruffled tone; practice it, and use it all the time, even if you really want to hit her.Rehearse neutral phrases like “I’m sorry you feel that way,” “Really — tell me more about that,” and “Well, different strokes, I guess.”
Because, you know, she wants a fight.She wants sides picked.She wants an excuse to feel beleaguered, and proof that everyone loves her the best and will defend her.Take a minute and imagine what it’s like to live in that head; try to find an angle from which you can feel that little bit of compassion that lets you leave the bait where it is, if that makes sense.And maybe try to find some common ground with her, an activity or a movie, something that you can leverage for yourself the next time she’s acting a fool.The idea is that, privately, in your head, you can continue to think she’s a horse’s ass, but I think the only way to deal with a person like Carrie is to give her to understand that you’re an ally.
Readers, if you have specific reading to suggest, please feel free, but the short version is that she’s marking her territory, and the way to get her to stop needing to do that is to stop standing on the border with your arms folded.Nobody likes having to be the bigger person when the smaller person’s obvious buttholery begs for karmic justice, but, you know, you have to live in the world.
Dear Sars:
Love the Vine, love the site, you’ve heard it a million times ’cause it’s awesomely true, so.I apologize in advance if this gets long and…ranty.
I have a brother, Pickle.Along with my mother, he constitutes the entirety of what I consider my family (…long story.Suffice to say, our father was more of a sperm donor, so in purely biological terms my “family” constitutes several half-siblings, a half-dozen stepmothers, and a paternal grandmother who can’t stand me).Pickle is a fairly awesome dude — he’s smart, laid-back, charming, and though he doesn’t bathe as often as Mum and I would like, he’s still fairly popular with the ladies.
Which is the root of my problem.He and this girl, Keeks, dated for a while.Then they discovered that when Trojan says “99% effective” it means it’s not infallible.So I became Auntie Ishi, and to my surprise (I’d never before been a huge fan of children), I adored the little bugger.He’s funny and cute and he made my biological clock go, “Hey, if HE turned out THIS awesome, imagine how awesome YOUR kids would be!”
Unfortunately, Keeks is…a freaking bitch.I hate her.In a “fantasize death scenarios” kind of way.She’s selfish and cruel and immature.Pickle worked his tail off to support his family, as he has a horror of abandoning his son the way his own father abandoned him.Keeks has never held a job for more than three months, because her co-workers or employers “didn’t respect her,” by asking her to do things like her stated job duties, or coming to work on time.She berated my brother on a constant basis, and had mood swings even I, the daughter of a manic-depressive, found mind-boggling.
And now that their son is 2 1/2, it’s become increasingly clear that she wanted a BABY, not a son.She routinely ignores him, is incensed when strangers fail to comment on his adorability, and uses popsicles and candy to distract him when she doesn’t want to deal with his requests for attention — which is all the time.She allowed their apartment to fall into such a state of disrepair that I couldn’t even bring myself to go inside, since she was too busy with the NOT WORKING and the weed-smoking to bother with things like doing the laundry or dishes, or cleaning up after an active toddler.
For the fourteenth time, Pickle and Keeks have broken up.They do this about three times a year, and usually they’re back together within a week, acting all gross and generally engaging in the most messed-up relationship I know.This time, Keeks was apparently serious — she’s moved halfway across the country, to live with her mother (who is pretty much Keeks Sr., if you catch my drift).She took the kid with her, of course.
But — and this is getting to the point — Pickle didn’t even really fight her.I told him to consult a lawyer, to get a custody agreement hammered out before she flitted across time zones, to at least get himself legally declared the boy’s father (he’s not on the birth certificate ’cause they aren’t married).He always made noises about how he was going to, how he wanted to, but instead he retreated into a cloud of weed smoke, and though he now nominally lives in my mother’s house he’s really just keeping his stuff there.
Mum’s fed up with his current behavior, and in agonies over losing contact with her grandson.I can’t even mention the boy around her or she’ll spend hours crying.And still, Pickle just ignores it all and gets high.
I know I can’t possibly understand the pain he’s going through, losing his son like this, but COME ON. I even did the legal research for him, found him a lawyer, and he didn’t do anything.Before she left, I considered siccing the Baby Police on Keeks, but a) she may be neglectful, but not in a way a court would likely find significant, and b) Pickle’s not going to come across as a better option, what with the maryjane-flavored blood and all.
Now, I don’t know what to do at all.Is it time to just admit that Pickle doesn’t have the sense to pull his head out of his ass and fight?Or do I continue the supportive-sister routine and just listen when he needs an ear? Is there any more I can do?Is it even my responsibility to do any more?
Thanks —
Auntie Ishi (and her increasingly demanding biological clock)
Dear Auntie,
First, separate the two issues here.One issue is that you love your nephew and you want to stay in contact with him, and Keeks has made it difficult, if not impossible, to do that.The other issue is Pickle’s ineffectual dealings with the relationship.
The two seem like the same thing, because Pickle has served as your connection to your nephew, obviously, but you do need to distinguish between them, if only because Pickle’s life is not yours to run.You can disapprove of his reactions, they can cause you agita because they affect your relationship with the boy, but you can’t boss him; he’s an adult, and while doing legal legwork for him lets you feel like you have some control over the situation, and can help, it isn’t really…”supportive,” exactly.It’s getting out in front of the situation for him, and a lot of people confuse them, but “support” means “support” — not “do.”
Keeping tabs on your beloved nephew is another matter; you should do that on your own.Keeks doesn’t sound like much of a prize, but if you want to keep knowing the kid, suck it up and do what it takes to deal with Keeks; if it’s important to you, do what you need to do.Tell Pickle, sure, and keep him in the loop, but again, separate it from what you think Pickle should do.
And as far as getting Pickle to assert his parental rights, well, see above.I think he’s depressed, smoking pot all day isn’t going to help with that, and you could suggest to him that he talk to a counselor because you hate to see him stagnant and unhappy — but don’t make a list of therapists, don’t nag him about the pot, don’t do for him.He has to do for himself, and if this is a pattern with the two of you where you try to fix shit for him all the time and he just kind of drifts, it’s up to you to break the cycle.”I hate that this is happening, I think you could really benefit from some legal and emotional help, and I’m here for you if you need anything.”
I agree that, if Pickle doesn’t pull it together and get proactive about the situation relatively soon, it’s going to get out of his reach in a hurry, and he probably knows that and feels overwhelmed — but his son is his responsibility, to take up or put down.The responsibility you feel as the aunt is a different matter, and you can approach that however you see fit, but Pickle simply is not dealing, and you can’t force him to.People gotta learn things for themselves.
Hi Sarah —
I’m recently reliving my “RBI” vs. “RBIs” debate in my head and I was curious where you stood on the matter.
I had to write a press release last week involving “County Animal Rescue Teams” — with the already-accepted abbreviation “CART” — which in my mind is already plural.
Except that each County has one Team, and while most of the time, I was writing about all of the teams, there was one sentence in which I was talking about only one of them — and I got confused.
This probably doesn’t make any sense, and I decided that it didn’t really matter because no one other than trained sports journalists and us grammar nerds even pay attention to the “RBI” vs. “RBIs” debate, so I just made it plural (CARTs) when needed for clarity’s sake.
Couldn’t help but wonder what my grammar go-to lady thought…
Dear Lady,
I’m fine with either.Yes, RBI is already a plural, since it stands for “runs batted in”…except when it stands for a single run batted in…and the rules of grammar exist to promote clarity in the first place.You could also argue that, in its acronym form, RBI then becomes a singular (see: when it’s written out phonetically as “ribbie” or “ribbies”), though I doubt purists would accept that argument.
Some people can’t abide “RBIs,” but as long as it’s consistent throughout the document and/or with the house style, I don’t have a problem with it.”CART,” same issue (compounded by the fact that the acronym spells another noun that is then a singular).Whatever gets the intended meaning across is what you should use.
Tags: grammar kids the fam
Mad, I actually find self-help books helpful too, even more than therapy. I’d recommend that you read “Feeling Good” — not the workbook, as you’ve done, but the actual book — because it seems like you could use some help in glossing over some of the smaller irritating things she does. Like #9 — who gives a shit? If someone who wasn’t a hysterical ass did that to you, you wouldn’t get worked up about it at all. Try to get back to that place with the ignore-able she does.
Also, with this smaller stuff, I’d try to find the humor in it if I were you. After she pulled #4, I’d say to the groom, “Congrats on not marrying a jackass (look at SIL)…wish I could say the same for everyone (look at bro)…” Delivered right, you should get a laugh from the groom. Or when she makes an under the breath comment, loudly say, “What? Who has the ass of a buffalo?! Where?!” Have fun with it.
And in general, only deal with her when absolutely necessary. I can’t imagine why you would call this harpy at least once a month.
It seems like the big problem is that she treats your parents like shit. What is their reaction? Or your brother’s?
To “she makes me so mad” – Cut this woman out of your life, and your brother too if that’s what it takes (and it probably will). Tell your brother why you are doing it and that part of the reason is his inability to stand up to her. The fallout can’t be any worse than what she’s already doing. You are all enabling her.
Concentrate instead on your relationship with your parents.
Not too long ago, I heard YES announcer David Cone refer to the ‘Earned Run’ stat that some pitcher had accrued as “[so-and-so] got himself a couple of earnies.” Which immediately supplanted “ribbie” as my new favorite sports-related coinage. Flove.
So, yeah, CARTs.
I’m going to have to go with (name twin) Jen here. You’ve known this woman for 15 years. She’s obviously not going to change, but she’s also obviously not going to tear your family apart. A person who was truly going to keep a baby from his grandparents and aunt, would keep a brother from his sister and parents. She hasn’t done that. Yeah, might she make a big fuss about how put out she is if you want to see your nephew? Sure. Will she actually rpevent you from seeing him? It doesn’t seem like it.
From what you’ve written here, it looks like all of her obnoxiousness has resulted in annoyance, not World War III. Deflect what you can, ignore what you can’t, and love the members of your family who aren’t stunted in adolescence.
I know it’s not squarely on point, but I’ve found that “How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk” by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish has been indispensible to me in learning how to deal with difficult people. It’s surprising how often the techniques that are designed to work on 4-year olds will work on 40-year olds. The precise examples in the book will not necessarily be applicable, but the techniques taught are very helpful.
My sense is that part of what So Mad and Ishi are both dealing with is the realization that how important something is to you doesn’t always correlate well with how much control you have over it.
It’s really sad, but if your brother is going to be married to an awful person and stay married to her, there’s no way not to be affected. I have to say I don’t agree that coming back with bitchy remarks of your own is a good idea. I don’t think it would make you feel better in the long run. It would feel good for five seconds, but then that’s over and you’re both a couple of rude people making everybody else uncomfortable and drawing attention to your battles. I agree with Sarah about the neutral shutdowns.
Similarly, in the case of the Pickle, you can do what you can to maintain a relationship with your nephew, but if his mother takes him far away and doesn’t give you contact, and particularly if your brother is going to decide to become a vanished parent, you will be deeply wounded and deeply affected but probably unable, in reality, to do anything. You can’t force your brother to parent if he chooses not to.
These are terrible situations, where you can get badly hurt because you can’t control what other adults decide to do. In most cases that affect your own family, you have at least some rights, but in some cases, you don’t.
Mad, two really good books I’ve read are “Toxic People” and “Joing Custody with a Jerk.” The latter is can apply to any difficult person you are entangled with–bosses, family, not just spouses.
I agree with Sars and Linda regarding the situation with Carrie. Making sarcastic comments will only make things worse. The best thing to do is ignore her. I am in a similar situation with my own SIL, but reading Gary Zukav’s books helped me to deal with difficult people and get over my own reactions to their actions. My responses to others sometimes seemed like a very clever and funny thing, but usually it just turned into hositility. Reading Zukav’s ideas behind one’s intentions really changed my thinking for the better.
It also helps to remember that people who mumble under their breath at others are usually very miserable themselves.
Focus on the benefit for your dad, you all seem like a really tight unit and that’s awesome.
I just wanted to add that I absolutely agree with Linda, particularly in regard to the “coming back with bitchy remarks of your own is not a good idea”. Sars had it right. As far as recommends go, I flipped through a book once called, I believe, “How to Deal with Difficult People” when my husband had a terror of a boss a few years back, and it had some really good pointers, from what I read. Good luck!
Mad, I read your letter and NPD did come to mind. You might find it helpful to read some books on dealing with that, even if it’s not the specific correct diagnosis. You could try applying some of the ideas and see if they help.
That aside, what other people have already said applies, too. Why keep her in your life? Why put the effort in if she’s just going to criticize and annoy and nag and be ridiculous?
Is it Shitty SIL Day in here, or something?
@Auntie Ishi, you have the most awesome taste in name-changes, but anyway. You say Pickle’s horrified at the thought of abandoning his son the way y’all’s father abandoned him, but that horror doesn’t seem to be moving him forward in trying to maintain contact with the boy. He sounds depressed, and that’s obviously a factor in his current behavior, but the effect is that he is in fact letting go of his child, by omission rather than commission, but the results for his son will ultimately be the same if he doesn’t find his way out of that weed cloud pretty soon.
This book came to mind, even though it’s about parents-in-law rather than other in-laws: What Do You Want From Me?, by Terri Apter.
http://tinyurl.com/ybv3lpx
My sense is that part of what So Mad and Ishi are both dealing with is the realization that how important something is to you doesn’t always correlate well with how much control you have over it.
I need to tape this to my mirror.
With Carrie I do think the letter writer is having an emotional allergic reaction to Carrie because some of the things she’s pissed off about are not really that big a deal, like the DVD or asking someone to wash their hands before handling your newborn. (And as a sidenote: I have no idea what other issues Dad has, but blindness itself does not preclude going to parties.)
But I think you need to place Carrie in the category of people who suck but who won’t shut up like Glenn Beck. You are going to have to hear about what crazy shit Glenn Beck says. It’s infuriating, but you don’t have to care, because he sucks and is wrong. You are going to have to hear what Carrie has to say. She’s infuriating, but you don’t have to care. Unfortunately I don’t think there’s anything you can really do.
Oh lordy, So Mad, she sounds infuriating. But some of these things (#2, #4, #6, #7) aren’t really your battles to fight. If your mom is insulted, she can deal with it on her own. Or not, because it sounds like she has bigger things to worry about.
Next time she pulls some shit with you, just shrug your shoulders and say “Huh. Whatever.” And walk away. Ignore it, because ultimately, that will be more infuriating to her. And you get to look like the bigger person!
I realize that’s all easier said than done. But try to see that she’s really a sad, small, miserable person. If she spends so much energy making other people crazy, imagine what it’s like to be inside her head. Like the wise Sars said, it’s pitiable.
Book recommendation for Mad: “Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most.”
I’m reading it now; it’s helping me to reexamine a difficult situation with a family member. I don’t have much confidence that this person will ever be able to engage in a civil, rational discussion – however, the book reminds me that, even though I’m not The Crazy One, I bring my own emotions, identity, and interests to the table.
Dear Mad,
Reading your letter was shockingly familiar. I have a very similar SIL, but while she doesn’t scream or throw things, she just wears everyone down with her rudeness and negativity. I used to get into it with her (where the simplest comment like, “Well, I don’t agree with that.” would make her cry), but the way I’ve survived is to do largely what Sars has suggested.
And it was effing HARD at first. Because the shit she has said about my family is both upsetting and untrue and I want to chew her out. But after awhile I realized that she really is to be pitied. She doesn’t have any friends outside of my brother’s friends.
And the only thing I’d change is that I wouldn’t ask her to tell me more (because I don’t want to hear more or encourage the topic). And I wouldn’t pretend to be an ally for the same reasons and because it’s just not true. BUT, when she says something unpleasant, I ignore it and keep my face neutral or maintain my smile if I can. If possible, I change the topic or leave the room. I agree that not giving her the reaction you’ve (understandably) been giving is the key.
And now after years of putting up my dukes, we largely stick to the handful of topics that don’t cause strife. I may still find her horrifying, because she IS, but my visits to their home don’t end with me chain-smoking and shaking in a corner in my flat anymore, either.
Good luck to you!
Auntie Ishi–another piece of advice. Until your brother gets it together, Keeks is the only way to access your adorable, sweet nephew. Repeat that as necessary as you imagine horrible death scenarios featuring this woman. Your best bet is to be available to Keeks, call regularly, send cards, birthday presents, offer to visit and babysit,–whatever it takes to keep her from disappearing with her son. Even if your brother never mans up, the nephew deserves to know that his father’s family loves him. In the interest of staying in touch with the boy, dial down your impatience with your brother, and your hostility towards the baby mama drama, and be the best friggin’ auntie in the world to the little kid caught up in bull he didn’t sign up for.
And for “Mad”? Disengage, disengage! Avoid her when you can, don’t kiss her rear by calling when she doesn’t appreciate it, spend time with your brother and nephew alone if you can, and learn to relax about returned movies. Sars is spot on–she makes nasty remarks because she wants to push buttons and turn attention back to her. She might feel that in comparison to your selfless mother, disabled father, and war vet husband that she hasn’t got much going on, and wants to make darn sure everyone knows she is a martyr, a victim, an aggrieved party who has never done *anything* wrong and stands ready to judge.
What a depressing theme of totally dysfunctional couples wreaking havoc on those around them (and bringing babies into the mix too).
And I wouldn’t pretend to be an ally for the same reasons and because it’s just not true.
I should clarify that I’m not recommending she pretend they’re BFF or she’s always on her SIL’s side when/if she’s not, but rather that she recognize that these bitchy things Carrie does are designed, consciously or not, to create an adversarial situation, and she should try not to follow that script. So, not so much starting up the Carrie’s Awesome Club…more the Carrie’s Troubled And Has To Test Everyone, And I Decline To Participate Club.
Ah, the “this person is so WRONG and IMPOSSIBLE… yet, there they stand” problem.
The trouble with impossible people is that they refuse to pretend life is a movie, and either repent their evil ways or get their comeuppance at the big dance after two hours. They just keep going, living their lives, and driving you batshit insane.
I like Anne Lamott’s take on forgiveness. Forgiveness means you put down your side of the rope. You’re done. It doesn’t mean you want to have lunch with the person. It’s entirely possible to forgive someone and still avoid whole cities where they might be so you don’t run into them.
Naturally, the word forgive is pretty loaded, especially when these people are in so much of your life and entwined with the people you love, and they haven’t done one big thing so much as a constant mosquito swarm of small things, but there it sits. Forgiveness doesn’t mean I Love You. It doesn’t mean Let’s Braid Each Other’s Hair And Eat Junk Food. It doesn’t even have to mean I Understand. It just means I’m Done With This Way Of Relating To You. Really, it’s something you do for yourself, not as a gift to the other person. Thinking of it that way may help a bit, and as a bonus, you’ll have a new and calmer way of being around the people you actually like.
I’m going to make an alternate, and possibly unhelpful, suggestion to So Mad: keep writing.
Because my first reaction to #2 was to think that anyone can report an SIL being awful, but it takes a good ear and a sense of humor to report an SIL being awful in the middle of colonial Williamsburg. Concise scene-setting = much more enjoyable for the reader.
If the guy who writes shitmydadsays can get a TV deal out of it, there has to be a potential Twitter following for evilsisterinlawcarrie.
More helpfully (maybe): I don’t blame you for getting mad at her about mistreating your mom, but life is too short to nurse a grudge about a bad movie gift. Even a Dane Cook movie gift. Now that you know she doesn’t like The Office, you have an excuse to start finding her the worst dreck possible. (My Best Friend’s Girl under her tree this year? Perhaps?)
For Ishi, I’d also add that she needs to think what she values most: her brother getting his parental rights, or a 2 1/2 year old getting proper care. The description of Keek’s behavior above, as it’s stated, is downright neglectful and quite possibly physically dangerous to Nephew. Ignoring a kid and pacifying it with candy are unfortunately all too common and nothing can be done about them, but keeping a squalid apartment and not tending to a child’s physical needs while abusing drugs should not be allowed. (I realize some people can smoke weed without it affecting their decisions and ability to maintain themselves. Keeks does not sound like one of those people.)
I would strongly recommend contacing Child Protective Services in the area where Keeks has moved to, and asking them to look into her. It can be done anonymously, but if this woman is neglecting the kid in favor of drugs – even lightweight ones- the way you say, this sounds like a good idea. There is a good chance that as relatives, you or your mother could petition for custody if it came for that.
Your brother needs a lot of help, and I think Sars is right on in how to deal with that. But while you can step back from him and let him sort it out on his own, Nephew is 2 1/2, and shouldn’t have to put up with this shit.
Hey, Mad.
I’m not trying to be funny or mean with this suggestion — I think you should consider taking a look at some books on dog training. The basic principles of ‘operant conditioning’ work just as well on humans as on any other mammals. The basic idea is similar to what other readers have suggested above: you ignore behaviours you want to extinguish, and reward ones you want to continue.
Note: this works really well, but it takes practice!
In the case of your pathetic SIL — whenever she says anything mean or awful, you don’t react at all. Pretend like you were paying attention to something else, or leave the room if you have to (but not in a huff!). But don’t react. And when she’s being pleasant, even by accident, reward the behaviour with attention, smiles, questions, etc. But don’t react with negative attention.
I’ve got to agree with JK’s response to Mad. My SIL is just fine, the brother picked well. My sister, on the other hand, is a raging attention-aholic. We all just spent a week together and I was reminded how much my sister still can push my buttons.
We all went to Hawaii for Thanksgiving. My sister didn’t want to go (even though Mom paid and step-dad just had lung cancer surgery). She pouted for the first 4 days. She refused to help me cook. She wouldn’t drive herself anywhere. She wouldn’t let us talk about food prep without getting huffy (Gastric bypass, major food issues). The last straw was when she slammed her bedroom door to go watch Dancing with the Stars on her computer and posted on her Facebook page that we were being mean to her. She’s 46!! I was playing Trivial Pursuit with her 21 and 16 year old daughters, which was what interfered with her TV watching.
She has this habit of not listening to other conversations that are going on and will continue to make random comments about whatever she wants to talk about, even if no one is listening.
It breaks my heart to not engage her when she’s talking, because she’s my sister and I wish we could have a decent relationship. But not really responding is the only way I can keep myself from getting into fights with her. We’re a year apart, shared a room growing up and no one knows how to piss me off better. If I can learn to distance myself from her comments and weirdness, it can be done.
Be pleasant, don’t react to the negative comments, don’t give her any ammunition. Be as polite as you would be to a new boss or any stranger who is older than you.
Thanks gang! I love all of the book suggestions and advice (Jon’s might actually help me deal with a lot of people, including myself).
I happened to mention this problem to a therapist last week and she suggested that it may be Borderline Personality Disorder. She let me thumb through a book I have since ordered, “Stop Walking On Eggshells”, and the techniques outlined seem spot-on with what Sars and all of you have suggested.
#9 was just an example of her tragic sense of humor. Also: her favorite Star Wars character is Jar Jar. I wasn’t so much offended as appalled.
(Natalie, I should have added that he’s a diabetic, and there were many complications in terms of navigating in public restrooms, walking to the car, managing his insulin, etc. Some of their friends felt uncomfortable and stopped inviting them, other times it was just easier to stay home. Those challenges apply to blind people too, but I agree, it’s not completely limiting.)
I think Ishi and I should go out for a drink!
@John, can she continually pinch Carrie’s neck like Cartman’s mom??? Because while that would probably not help much, it WOULD be hilarious.
@Mad – I’m not all the way through it yet so I can’t make specific recommendations from the book but Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg might be helpful too. It helps you neutralize intense conversations.
http://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-Language-Marshall-Rosenberg/dp/1892005034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259797124&sr=8-1
I may be overly sensitive, but as an only child, I have to say, I don’t think I’ve ever done anything in Mad’s list. Okay, I’ve probably received a gift that I didn’t like and given a gift the recipient didn’t like at the same time and I certainly will admit to being a bit odd, but…I hope I’m not a crazy lady. …looks around nervously…
@Auntie For any potential custody battles, etc, you may consider keeping a diary of Keeks goings-on relative to the well being of the kid. Not that you should stalk her or anything, but what you observe. So if push comes to shove, you don’t have to try to drum up how many times the house was super gross or what kind of gross or what weird thing happened when (or exactly how many times she was smoking in front of the kids). You could just tally it up. Have a date attached. Yeah, your brother might not be a model citizen, but how many details will the other side have? I suggest this because I know friends who are doing this to build a case against a deliquent mom in a similar nephew situation. I don’t know if it will work, but they are literally counting the days/weeks she bails on the kid for which she “wants” custody. However, if there are other TNers who know this kind of thing doesn’t do squat, please correct me.
@ Ishi, I was in a similar situation some years ago. The details are different, but the upshot was that I was close to some children who were being neglected by their self-absorbed and immature mother. The best advice I can give you is to find a way to work with Keek and keep your anger at her out of it as much as you can. It’s easier said than done, because it’s so infuriating to watch such horrible parenting, but in my situation I trained myself to always come back to “what will be best for the kids” and acting on that, letting my anger at their mom slide away as much as I could manage.
The trick is to never confront. Pretend to believe all her shit. Try cultivating a Dumb Ishi character who will sympathize when she complains about her employers (“yeah, the man is always trying to get over on me too, what can you do …”). Stay neutral and do what you can to get access to your nephew. Whenever possible find ways to make her think you are helping her, when in fact you are doing something good for your nephew. In my situation this meant offering her a “much needed break” from parenting by having her kids come stay with me, halfway across the country, for the summers. You might have a wait a few years before he can come stay with you, but you can lay the groundwork now. If she’s as selfish as you describe she will eat that up and will start to see you as an ally.
The hardest part of this approach is that you have to let go of any idea that you’re going to make her see that she is wrong, or see that you are a good person. She’s never going to get that, but in the long run, that doesn’t matter – what matters is doing the best you possibly can for your nephew.
As for your bro, all I can say is, first the lightbulb has to want to change. He might pull his head out of his ass or he might not, but there are things YOU can do to help your nephew, who in my view is the most important character here since he the only one who doesn’t have any control over his fate.
You might try calling CPS but bear in mind that once they are called you lose control of the situation. If they were to decide to remove him from the home, your family MIGHT get custody, but then again Social Services may decide that you can’t provide an appropriate environment because of your bro’s drug use. Unless you want to risk seeing nephew go into foster care with strangers, be very, very careful about calling CPS. You might talk to a family lawyer about your options here – maybe there are things you can do to increase the likelihood that your family would get custody if nephew were removed from his mom.
Oh, and one last thing – I don’t find it at all surprising that your brother is following in his dad’s footsteps. It’s pretty common for people who have been abandoned and not sought therapy to repeat whatever they were subjected to with their own children. Sad but true.
@Ishi–On a non-emotional note, I’ll mention that there is the legal, if tenuous, concept of “grandparents’ rights,” and your mother may wish to consult a lawyer to see if visitation rights are something she might be able to obtain.
On a more emotional note, it sounds to me like part of your struggle is that your brother, whom you believe to be an “awesome dude,” isn’t actually presenting much evidence of that beyond good intentions, and you may be stuck with the difference between the brother you’d like him to be and the man he really is. (If they were living together, after all, it wasn’t “she” who let the apartment fall into revolting disrepair, it was “they,” whether only one of them was employed or not.) Not that you can’t love him and support him, but it might be beneficial for your continued relationship with your nephew, which does require a relationship with his mother, if she didn’t have to take so much emotional weight to ensure your brother’s exculpation.
I’m no fan of calling CPS unles it’s really warranted – I once supported a good family in court when their foster child was pulled due a lying, resentful meddler. But THIS:
“…since she was too busy with the NOT WORKING and the weed-smoking to bother with things like doing the laundry or dishes, or cleaning up after an active toddler.”
Dunno, I but I think a court would likely find that very significant, and the Baby Police probably ought to be involved. If this kid’s really growing up in a squalid environment with clouds of drug smoke *and* a mom who has already demonstrated that she won’t inconvenience herself for the good of her child, and the one parent who was providing some income is no longer in the picture… who is paying for diapers and Cheerios now?
If she hasn’t suddenly straightened her shit out and gotten a job, a vacuum cleaner, and a new set of priorities, I’d be looking up that number. It’s usually in the front part of the phone book.
@Mad: It isn’t strictly self-help, but I find the Miss Manners books useful. They don’t quite give me strategies to deal with difficult people, but they put me in a mindset where I can come up with my own.
Dear So Mad,
Living Successfully With Screwed Up People. Seriously. It changed the lives of my whole family.
Sincerely,
SUPs are about 75% of the people I know
Auntie Ishi,
Find a lawyer who specializes in this sort of thing. Even if you never have to use this lawyer, you should at least know where you stand, what rights you and your family have.
There’s an innocent child involved in all this, and there’s no reason he should suffer because your SIL is evil and your brother can’t get his shit together. You might be able to be more of a presence than you think.
I can’t even express how helpful this advice – everybody’s – is. I guess I’m so deep in the issue it never occured to me that my relationship with Pickle and my relationship with Nephew are separate issues.
Issues that are easier to deal with, now, as Keeks has moved back (apparently living in a Super 8 with her mother wasn’t so awesome). So, time to put on the Big Girl Britches, suck it up, and do what I have to do in order to be a part of Nephew’s life.
@ Jane – You know, it’s silly, but I actually never considered that I have a skewed view of my brother until I read your post. And I realized you’re right, I *am* idealizing him, in a fairly ridiculous way. Thanks for the lightbulb moment.
@ Mad – I started drinking as soon as I saw my letter on the site. If you’re drinking now too, through some magical quantum stuff we’re drinking together. I think.
For Mad – a fantastic read for dealing with people just like Carrie is the website http://www.etiquettehell.com. I can’t recommend it enough for excellent tips and strategies in dealing with such toxic family members. You will be surprised and relieved to find out that you are not alone by any stretch of the imagination! Good luck!
(And remember although you cannot change someone else’s behaviour, you can change how you react to that behaviour. Time for a major shut-down on Carrie – “don’t feed the drama-llama”).
Oh man, Etiquette Hell! I think that site’s been around as long as TN; I remember reading about the Titanic-bridesmaids’-dresses story at my records clerk job, which I left 9 years ago. Definitely a useful read, if only to put things in perspective (like Katie says, you are very much not alone).
Mad, I really recommend Nina Brown’s Loving the Self-Absorbed: http://tinyurl.com/yjymdoc – meant for those dealing with someone who has Narcissistic Personality Disorder or anything similar, it’s really helped a good friend who’s in a very difficult marriage, but the principles can apply to many kinds of relationships. Good luck.
Actual self-help recommendation for Mad: The Dance of Anger and The Dance of Intimacy, by Harriet Lerner. Both books aimed specifically at women, both about how to negotiate “reactive” relationships in the context of family.
Mad – are you sure her name isn’t …. something that rhymes with “Feather”? Because she sounds like my evil disowned niece-in-law.
After she used various methods of aggravation and nastiness on various relatives, she tried to start on me. I was patient with her until she gave me the leverage I needed to scare the unholy hell out of her (she did something very illegal and I made it clear I would press charges if she pulled any crap again). Then I cut her off completely, with the full support of the rest of my family (including my disowned nephew’s mother, my older sister). I’m sure that sounds harsh, but there’s way more to the long, drawn out, extended story that I’m not going into. I start spitting venom after a while while telling it.
Anyway, Mad, I know that’s not an option for you (for your brother’s sake, and for the baby’s sake). I just wanted you to know you’re not alone, and I wish you all the best in dealing with your very own Psycho In Law. I’m so sorry you have one!
WOW, you guys are so awesome! I may need to read all of these!
And RJ, you are absolutely right… I gave up on the hope that I could change (or even help) her years ago. If there’s anything my dad has taught me, it’s that I can control my own outlook and the way I react to things… and that way, I can handle anything that life throws at me.
@ Mad: Oooh, I think your therapist might have a point with the borderline suggestion–as I read your letter, I kept thinking, “Gee, Carrie sounds a lot like my mother…” Mom is a borderline personality with strong narcissistic tendencies, and it’s taken lots of therapy to develop mechanisms to cope with her crazy-making ways.
Another book you might want to look into is “Sometimes I Act Crazy: Living with Borderline Personality Disorder” by Jerold J. Kreisman and Hal Straus, which has been highly recommended to me. The book I found most helpful was “Understanding the Borderline Mother” by Christine Ann Lawson–perhaps not the most helpful in your specific situation, but it does an excellent job of breaking down various “types” of borderlines, how to deal with them, etc. (Plus, if she has a baby now, this might help you advise your niece/nephew in a few years…).
I have a SIL who is self-centered, rude, negative, prone to temper tantrums, and who engages in many of the behaviors that Mad is describing.
That said, when I read Mad’s letter, I couldn’t help rolling my eyes. There are quite a few red flags here that we have more than one person who might be difficult to get along with.
– Diagnosing someone as a narcissist based on your limited study of psychology and talking about her to a therapist?
– “Carrie is the largest — and sometimes only — factor of anger, stress and anxiety in my life.”
– Mad at her brother for not defending his mother to his wife
– Assuming Carrie would use a baby as leverage with no evidence for it
– Feels slighted on behalf of others due to negative comments, e.g., a comment to a groom (was it perhaps joking in tone/context?), a comment about her upbringing in which she presumes you & your brother were rude to your mother is an insult…of your mother?, etc.
I’m not saying that Carrie is a saint. I’m willing to bet she is not. In fact, I’d probably enjoy locking her in a room with my own SIL, because I love the idea of 2 self-absorbed, rude & negative women battling it out in a game of one-upsmanship.
However, it sounds like Mad has painted a picture in which everyone in your family is a saint except your wicked evil SIL. Her father is a poor victim, a vet with health issues. Her brother is a noble vet and blameless victim who can’t defend his own mother in the face of the evil SIL. Her mother is the caretaker who sacrifices everything for her ill father. And she is the defender and protector of her mother and the family’s honor.
Mad, please take 2 steps back and get a hold of how you appear. I can envision the letter from Carrie that begins, “My SIL thinks that my MIL can do no wrong, so she throws a hissy fit when I asked her to wash her hands before touching a newborn baby. When she’s with my husband, she brings up stories about their past to make sure I’m left out of the conversation, so she can be nostalgic with him and exclude me. She gets mad that I cry or am hurt whenever she “hints” that she’s been offended…”
You don’t like her. She doesn’t like you. She sounds annoying. You want to know how to change your behavior? Drop the narrative in which your whole family is a bunch of saints and victims to this woman. You’re a bunch of people, with good and bad characteristics.
Figure out what kinds of experiences you can share together without driving each other crazy. Limit family time and access in that fashion. Do your parents have the same problems with Carrie when you’re not there? Do you have the same problems with her when your folks aren’t around? Examine which combinations produce the most problems and eliminate them!
For me, that meant trying to avoid restaurant situations, as I could not stand the way she treats waitstaff or trying to limit time spent jointly with SIL and my Mom (she disrespects my Mom, drives me nuts)…
And when you can’t avoid, try to think of what happens as a funny story you can later tell to your friends. Don’t engage her. Just observe. Some of the best, most ridiculous stories I have involve experiences with my brother & SIL from when she was in her “finest” form. The stories have a “You’ll never believe what she said/did next…” quality.
a comment about her upbringing in which she presumes you & your brother were rude to your mother is an insult…of your mother?
“I guess I was just raised right” is uttered about me with my mother in earshot, the speaker is getting whapped upside the head. Hard. It’s clearly a slam on the parenting Mad received, and on top of being rude, it’s tone-deaf.
There’s two sides to every story, and then there’s the truth; Carrie may have grounds for complaint too, but I wasn’t asked that.
Auntie Ishi:
Part of your problem may resolve itself. If Keeks can’t hold down a job and is no longer living with someone with a stable income, she might either apply for government assistance and/or try to get child support. If she does either one, most states will require her to go through the process to legally identify the father of the child, and during that investigation your brother and your family can very easily assert paternal rights or challenge her fitness as a parent.
If she tries to get Pickle to just send money to her directly, ask him not to. Perhaps arrange for supplies to be sent, but at least see if you can convince him to allow her to go through formal legal/judicial channels to establish a support order, because then the legal declaration of paternity will happen whether your brother ever gets the initiative to get it done or not.
“I guess I was just raised right” is uttered about me with my mother in earshot, the speaker is getting whapped upside the head.”
Me too.
Best not to insult Mrs. B. at all, ever. The TN loves her! And the TN is EVERYWHERE!!! Heh.
Seriously, how could that NOT be an insult to Mad’s parents? Annoyed, is your name really….Carrie? j/k, mostly.
Anyone who would say “I guess I was just raised right” very obviously and very definitely was NOT! I second the Miss Manners suggestion. I lovelovelove how she can slap you with an insult and never besmirch her white gloves. I aspire to that level of self-control and sublety. (I also know that’s not exactly the point of Miss Manners, but she inspires me to hold my tongue and my temper, sometimes.)
I have to say that I sort of agree with Annoyed, Not Mad. Mind you, anyone who trashes my upbringing in front of my mother gets the rough edge of my tongue right away. I see clearly that Carrie is self-absorbed, tone-deaf, and a raging nuisance, and I don’t doubt for one second that she’s horrible to be around.
However, my first response to Mad’s letter was to roll my eyes. There’s the fact that Carrie is annoying and horrible. And then there is the narrative that Mad is telling herself, in which no one other than Carrie is ever wrong about anything.
I’ve been in a situation where a genuinely screwed up person was making life miserable for a lot of people, and where I got overly invested in the story I told myself about how we were all helpless victims. One thing that happened is that I started over-reacting to minor issues.
Take #9 on the list. Who cares? People who are not close (and Mad and Carrie are not close) make mistakes about what presents to give each other. It happens. It’s not a big deal. My grandmother knew me for 30 years, she loved me a lot, and she never ever gave me a birthday present that I liked. Because she loved me and vice versa, it was not a big deal. #9 is only a big deal because of the narrative Mad has constructed where Carrie is tone deaf, self-absorbed, and EVERYTHING is evidence for that.
If Mad can start telling herself a new story, a lot of these crimes will reframe themselves as minor issues that can be annoyed. There have been a lot of good book suggestions here, but I happen to think that talking to a therapist, not in passing, is also a good idea. What you want the therapist to help you do is sort out which of your complaints about Carrie are justifiable complaints (as most of them seem to be), and which are minor issues you are over-reacting to because of the volatility of the situation, and which are actually your issues being projected onto her. In my case, Once I abandoned the idea that any of us were helpless victims, I could see where my need for us to be that way was feeding the monster.
Therapy very quickly helped me recognize the degree to which I was projecting my issues onto the situation. Once I stopped doing that, then it became much easier to disengage from and defuse the genuinely horrible behavior of the person in question.
In a lot of situations, once someone is identified as the Bad Guy, it’s very easy to dump on that person all the responsibility for all the tension in a situation, even the stuff that really isn’t a problem. You cannot control Carrie’s choices, but you can control yours, and right now you are choosing to give her a lot more power than she really deserves. A short course of therapy focused on “Help me find ways to defuse this relationship” can help you take that back, and provide a more realistic way to differentiate between genuinely horrible behavior and stuff that would not matter a damn if you didn’t hate this woman so much.
@Zie – great advice.
Never give cash! If you make *any* exception, get a receipt, even for goods given, like school clothing or field trip supplies or medicine! It feels cynical, but it’s practical.
I’d add that if/when Pickle ends up paying child support, he needs to specify that he pays his support through the Clerk of the District Court. They will track every.single.payment so that if any are in dispute it does not turn into a he-said-she-said thing. Saves a lot of ugly, trust me.
KPP, I’m with you in being a little taken aback by Mad’s “If it helps, she’s an only child…” comment. I’m not sure why that information would “help.” I’ve known plenty of gregarious, well-adjusted, socially functional only children and plenty of narcissistic dysfunctional asswipes with siblings. Being an only child is not by itself a recipe—or an excuse—for f*cked-upedness.
My first thought about #9 on Mad’s list is that it’s pretty hypocritical. When someone gets you a DVD you don’t like, they’re an asshole, and when you get them a DVD they don’t like…they’re an asshole? Bzuh?
That said, Carrie’s behavior is emotionally abusive and manipulative. I found Who’s Pulling Your Strings? by Harriet B. Braiker to be helpful in dealing with some similar behavior from people in my own life.
“I guess I was just raised right” is uttered about me with my mother in earshot, the speaker is getting whapped upside the head. Hard.”
By you or your mom?