Baseball

“I wrote 63 songs this year. They’re all about Jeter.” Just kidding. The game we love, the players we hate, and more.

Culture and Criticism

From Norman Mailer to Wendy Pepper — everything on film, TV, books, music, and snacks (shut up, raisins), plus the Girls’ Bike Club.

Donors Choose and Contests

Helping public schools, winning prizes, sending a crazy lady in a tomato costume out in public.

Stories, True and Otherwise

Monologues, travelogues, fiction, and fart humor. And hens. Don’t forget the hens.

The Vine

The Tomato Nation advice column addresses your questions on etiquette, grammar, romance, and pet misbehavior. Ask The Readers about books or fashion today!

Home » The Vine

The Vine: February 10, 2010

Submitted by on February 10, 2010 – 12:52 PM85 Comments

Hey Sars.

So, of course, there’s this Boy. My question is about whether or not it would be nuts to pursue him.

We know each other because a friend of his has been dating a friend of mine for a few years (we’re all around twenty). He’s very much my type, funny, sweet, and generally awesome.

So awesome that at a party a while ago, we had drunken sex. That I initiated, and he was very open to, and we both enjoyed.

So, great, right? The problem is with the next time I saw him. He does stand-up comedy, and he specifically invited me to his next show.

He told a joke about sleeping with me.

Granted, he didn’t mention my name, or say anything that would make the average person connect the joke to a girl in the audience, but I and a few of my close friends recognized that it was about me.

So why am I not furious? There are mitigating circumstances. He has some pretty serious mental-health issues (of which I was already aware). In fact, he ended up being hospitalized just a few days after this incident. Turns out, he was manic at the time. He also sent me an e-mail apologizing at length.

That, and I like him quite a bit. He just got out of the hospital a couple of weeks ago, and I sort of want to contact him. Is this completely insane?

The Wording Of That Question Was Probably Inappropriate

Dear Inappropriate,

This is a bad call. You know it’s a bad call, but you’re rationalizing it to yourself because you don’t want to feel like bad timing, or other people’s shit that has nothing to do with you, controls you or your life. I empathize completely, because I have forged ahead with questionable romantic alliances for much the same reason. However, and alas: no.

It’s not because he has a mental-health issue per se; it’s that he’s not managing it well at the moment, and it’s also that you’ve already started to make excuses on that basis for behavior that you find alienating and hurtful. And you’ve had sex once. You shouldn’t have this many negative variables this early on.

Is it always going to be a bad call? No. Do you have to cut him off or do anything else dramatic? No. But you do have to recognize and accept that sometimes bad timing is exactly that, bad, and cannot be brought to heel by anything except waiting for better timing. You want to keep hanging out with the guy, keep it friendly, see how it develops for him, sure, go for it. But someone has to be responsible for your feelings here, and it isn’t going to be him right now.

It’s not insane that you’re not furious (an incident like this is a known risk when you get involved with writers and comedians, right or wrong); it’s not insane to want to contact him and see how he’s doing. Any involvement beyond that right now is…well, I wouldn’t use the word “insane,” but “ill-advised” would cover it. Set a wide boundary, and observe it scrupulously.

Hey Sars,

I have a bit of a friend/family dilemma and I’m not sure who’s right here. Trying to keep this as concise as possible, I have three friends from high school (we were all really close) and while we all currently live away from each other, we’ve met up for a girls’ weekend every year for the past three years. We’re kind of split as a group between two major metropolitan areas, so we rotate every year as to who goes where and split the travel costs between all of us.

This year it’s in my area, which will still involve an hour drive to get to where we’re all supposed to stay. I have a daughter who is about a year and a half old and my husband doesn’t understand why I need to be gone for an entire weekend to see my friends. He’s fine with me going to see my friends, but thinks I should come home at night so as not to traumatize our child. Currently I am home with her a majority of the time and am always the one who does bedtime and such because my husband works shift work and often isn’t home.

So while he’s fine taking care of our little girl for a weekend (with backup babysitters in place since he will likely have to work that weekend), he doesn’t think I should be gone for two nights. He says she won’t be able to understand why I’m gone and even if I don’t get home at night to put her to bed, that she’ll at least be comforted when she sees me in the morning.

He also thinks that any trips away from home should be family trips now that we have a family. I can kind of understand his point there — I went across the country last year to see my friends when our daughter was under a year old (he wasn’t thrilled about that, either) and we have yet to take an actual trip as a family. And thinking back to my childhood, I don’t remember either of my parents ever going anywhere overnight alone unless it was for work.

The driving back and forth would be a hassle, but my main worry is feeling left out of the “girls’ weekend” because I’m not there with them at night. And I’m a little worried about the backlash I might get from them. So, first question is, am I being unreasonable to continue this tradition with my friends or should I compromise with my husband and come home at night?

The second question stems from something my husband asked. I’m the only one out of my group to have a child, so my husband asked why my friends couldn’t be a little accommodating and come spend part of a day here where we live (again, just an hour away from where everyone is going to be)? Since one of my friends has yet to meet our daughter, he thought she would want to meet her anyway.

Here’s the complicated part. One of my friends, Meg, has been trying to get pregnant for about a year now and has not had any luck. She’s suffered a couple of miscarriages and is understandably pretty devastated by the whole thing. So one of my other friends in the group pretty much told me that there wouldn’t be any trips to my house because Meg isn’t going to want to be around any kids.

I was so taken aback I just kind of agreed, but once I hung up the phone and processed it, I was kind of shocked. I mean, my daughter was born before Meg even started trying to get pregnant and at one time she called herself an “aunt,” and now seeing my daughter will cause her to be too upset? Plus, I’m assuming my friend who has never met my daughter would like to see her. It’s the first time she’s going to be in the area in two years and she’ll only be an hour away, but because of Meg she won’t.

I’m not saying that our girls’ weekend should be spent hanging around my house with my kid, but I’m wondering if maybe my husband is right when he says they’re kind of treating me like crap. I feel like I’d have to pretend I don’t have a child for a weekend. I mean, if Meg doesn’t want to see her, she’s probably not going to want me to talk about her either. And she’s pretty much the biggest part of my life, so that kind of limits what I can talk about. I really try not to be one of those moms who can’t talk about anything but the kids, but this seems a little over the top.

Oh, and did I mention that I haven’t talked to Meg in six months? The whole time she’s been going through all this, I’ve been calling and emailing with no response. She’s talked to our other friends, but I’ve been limited to the occasional group email and I can only assume it has something to do with my daughter. I’ve been pretty hurt by that, but I’ve been trying to be understanding since she’s obviously going through a hard time.

So, the second question is, are my friends being kind of ridiculous with the whole “no kids” thing when it comes to my daughter or am I just being overly sensitive?

Trying to be a good mom, wife, and friend

Dear Good,

First question: no, I don’t think it’s unreasonable, and I think you already have compromised with your husband. The two of you need to talk about what’s really bothering him here, whatever it is: he’s worried about the baby, he’s worried he can’t handle her by himself, he’s a creature of routine who doesn’t like changes to how things usually go.

None of this is “wrong,” but if he’s parsing this as an issue of your daughter’s emotional comfort…I don’t know. Isn’t it better for her to spend an occasional night without you, and get used to it? Isn’t it better to accustom her to occasional changes in her routine so they don’t overwhelm her every time? Every kid is different, but if Daddy has to do the bedtime ritual for a couple of nights, it’s probably not going to kill her, and if she cries for you, well, that’s not going to kill her either. Daddy kind of needs to learn to cope with that eventuality, methinks.

But you and your husband need to have a longer discussion about these expectations generally. I myself think it’s eminently healthy for partners to have parts of their lives that are theirs alone — girls’ weekends, solo mini-cations, whatever — and would feel suffocated by the assumption that every moment outside of work must be spent as a family. Other people need that togetherness and feel lost without it. The trick is to come together with your husband on who needs what and how that will work.

Second question: I kind of can’t answer this, because Meg herself seems pretty determined to avoid the discussion. I would suggest that you just call her up and try to clear the air, but it sounds like you’ve tried that and she’s avoiding you. That said, I would try once more with an email, written as gently as you can manage, saying that you don’t want to bring up a touchy subject, but you’re hearing things secondhand from this other friend, you’ve been instructed that the baby is unwelcome socially and conversationally, and you want to respect her feelings, but you…don’t actually know her feelings.

It’s fine to try to accommodate her need to avoid painful reminders, but Meg is your friend, so is this other friend, and this is your child; I see where everyone’s coming from with trying to protect Meg, but maybe it’s time to point out that it’s not without cost to you — especially since Meg herself hasn’t told you anything, about anything, in half a year. And it’s definitely time to point out that, if Meg has an issue with you, or with you having a kid when she does not, then it’s really Meg who needs to address that with you.

I mean, yes, your friends are being a little melodramatic with this, I think, and the assumption that you will spend the entire 48 hours banging on about rice cereal and Dr. Spock is dumb and pretty insulting. Some parents do do this; most parents have cable, and opinions about things besides toileting strategies.

You might consider not attending this girls’ weekend, actually — not because it makes it easier for everyone else, although I guess it does, but because it makes it easier for you. You don’t have to deal with your husband’s disapproval, or drive back and forth, or walk on eggshells around Meg, et cetera and so on. But if you decide not to go, you should spend the time addressing the issues it raises. Tell your friend you don’t want her speaking for the group anymore; if Meg has something to say, she can say it, and so can the others, but you read and watch movies and you can speak to other topics besides the baby, thanks ever so. Tell your husband that he should take a bigger role in your daughter’s bedtime when he’s around; tell him that, sometimes, you need girl time with your other friends, and it’s not a rejection of the family — it’s you doing something to recharge so that you can bring more to the family.

And tell yourself, while you’re up, that you’re doing the best you can and you’re not going to please everyone. Compassion and kindness don’t mean you have to let other people decide who you are.

Dear Sars,

I’ve been in a relationship with F. for almost 9 months. We were friends first, then became fuck-buddies — though it only took a week before we became an actual couple. But I fucked up: three weeks after we got together, one of our common friend kissed me while we were both drunk, and F. came in the room and saw us. It was a stupid, one-time mistake, and all I can say in my defense is that I was drunk and that it lasted maybe two seconds.

F. just acted as if he hadn’t seen anything, then listened to us when we apologized. I offered to break things off between us (and go back to being friends if he wanted to) if he couldn’t forgive me or get past it, but he insisted that we stay together. Over the next week, I asked several times if he was certain about his decision, and every time he told me he didn’t want us to break up. So I stopped talking about it, thanked God I had found such a wonderful guy who would forgive me, and went on to have the best relationship I’ve ever had.

But four months later, during an idiotic fight, he suddenly told me that he was thinking about it all the time and that it was killing him, that I had “cheated” on him and that he wished he would have punched each of us and left back then.

I was probably extremely naive, but I honestly never saw it coming. And since then, not a week has gone by without him throwing it in my face, either randomly whenever I mention anything that might remind him of that day — for instance, just the name of the alcohol we were drinking — or whenever we have a fight, even if it’s about something completely different.

I love F. and would do anything to be with him, and I’m honestly sorry and hate myself for hurting him — but recently I’ve started thinking: was it really so bad that it warranted such a reaction? Sars, we had been “serious” for only 10 days, and it was a drunken-2-seconds kiss, and since then I’ve done everything I could to make him happy.

But he keeps talking about it, again and again, going on fights that last for hours (where it’s basically just him talking about it). He says it’s destroying him, but it’s starting to destroy me too, and I don’t know what to do. When we’re not talking about it we’re so good together, and I don’t want to lose him, but I feel like I’m being constantly punished and I don’t know how long I can take it. I’ve asked several times if he wanted to break up (while making it clear I wouldn’t, if it was up to me), since he says he’s hurting so much and I don’t want that, but he never has.

I accept that I did a wrong thing and that he might not forgive me — but I’m a firm believer that, if you forgive someone, you shouldn’t keep bringing up their past mistakes. I’ve tried talking to him about it, but he’s made it clear he’s the victim and I have no right to be hurt or say anything about it, so now I just shut up and avoid all of the subjects of conversation that might bring it up, then keep quiet and apologize when he’s talking about it.

What can I do, Sars? I’m afraid talking will only lead to a break-up, but is there any chance waiting and hoping will do the trick?

Guilty But Hurting

Dear GBH,

It should lead to a break-up — initiated by you. He’s blackmailing you emotionally, and you’re permitting it.

It is past time for you to make it clear to him that either he forgives you and finds a way to get past it, or you will leave. You are sorry that it happened, you are sorry you hurt him, and he doesn’t have to forgive you if he doesn’t want to, or can’t — but if he doesn’t decide to move on from it, you are done.

Do it the next time he brings it up. Stay calm, but don’t let him talk over you; say your piece, and give him to understand that you will not have this discussion anymore. Leave the room if he starts in on it again; leave the room every time. Hang up the phone, get your shoes on, whatever it takes — he keeps harping on this because he can, so get it through his head that he can’t. And if he gets all “WELL FINE THEN JUST GO YOU OBVIOUSLY DON’T CARE ABOUT ME YOU CHEATY HAG,” he’s doing it because he knows you don’t want him to think of you that way, and you’ll cave. Don’t. You’re better than being spoken to like that.

No: you are. You made a mistake, you’ve done your time, you’re better than that. I get that nobody wants to see that, and I get that the image is hard to scrub from your brain, but: “destroying him”? Come on. He’s playing on your guilt, and I think you have to forgive yourself, and let him stop holding your toes to the flame for a drunken smooch. If it were worth ending the relationship over, he’d have done that; he’s had opportunities. He doesn’t, because this way is better for him. This way, he can manipulate you.

That’ll quite do. He lets this go, or you will go your own self. You will not hear about it anymore; if he persists, you will break things off. However “good you are together” aside from this, it isn’t genuine, because you know this argument is always lurking, and you know he’s set it up so you can’t win. No good. Either he loves you enough to make himself get over it or he doesn’t, and I know you dread finding out which it is, but like I said: better than that.Put your foot down and get it over with.

Share!
Pin Share


Tags:    

85 Comments »

  • Annabany says:

    Is it wrong that I really want to know what the joke was?

  • B says:

    GBH’s boyfriend is an abuser waiting to happen. Get out while you can!

  • Sarah D. Bunting says:

    Not sure we need to scorch the earth with abuser accusations just yet. He’s probably just a whiny ass.

  • tulip says:

    @GBH “Put your foot down and get it over with.”
    I have to say with all possible speed. I have a good friend who is MARRIED to this guy. He brings up stuff she did when she was 18, when they were not even together. Did I mention that she’s now 44?? I am the supportive friend but THANK GOD

  • tulip says:

    Whoops! dang mouse button.
    .. they are finally getting separated. Please learn how to stop this behavior before you have been married 15 years and have 2 kids.
    Hugs and I wish that didn’t suck.

    @Good I’m currently in the same boat as your friend Meg minus the not talking to people. It bugs the hell out of me when I hear about other people getting pregnant yadda yadda. The difference is that I know that’s MY reaction and I would never try to shut out my friend who had a kid. Not that it doesn’t take an amount of sucking it up but I think she could at least SAY something to you especially if you are a close friend. Everyone is different but I think to a certain extent if something is making someone uncomfortable then it’s incumbent upon them to say something. Even just a “going through a hard time don’t want to talk about it” email would do it.
    YMMV and I don’t speak for all woman having trouble conceiving so just my two cents.

  • attica says:

    I have some experience with girls-weekends that morphed into something else entirely (a fiance, not a kid, but there are similarities). In my case, the fiance of one of the girls showed up halfway through the chicks-on-the-beach festivities, and the whole thing turned into King/Queen and Ladies In Waiting. And not because the couple couldn’t converse about other topics. The presence of the couple as a unit just shifted the whole vibe. Now, I sincerely like both halves of the couple, but this was not enjoyable, and not what I signed up for (and paid good money for, to boot).

    So my opinion is that the girls weekend should be just that. Bringing the baby will shift the vibe, and independent of Meg and her fertility issues, the weekend will morph into cooing over Precious. No disrespect to baby, here. People are hard-wired to coo over babies. Can’t be helped.

    Sars astutely picks up on Daddy’s issues here. They need a separate airing. Invite whatever friends haven’t met the baby to do so on a separate occasion or before or after the weekend, or set up a webcam or something. (Baby won’t know she’s been snubbed.)

  • Stephanie says:

    Good –

    I am also part of a group of women who get together once a year for a weekend away. And yes, when kids started arriving, some things had to change a teeny tiny bit.

    One woman had an agreement with her husband that each got 2 solo weekends away each year. She used one of hers to be with us. One year another woman was still nursing and her husband and baby stayed in a nearby hotel – showed up for the occasional visit – and then left (we’d have been ok with them staying, but they wanted to respect the sleepover vibe we had going). We have stayed close enough that one mother went home each night.

    The unifying factor here is that we talked about it and arranged for it and never once treated a friend’s child as an annoyance that messed up our weekends. OTOH, the husbands were pretty suportive too. You’re getting it from both sides and, well, you are a better woman than I am because I would have been screaming “enough” well before now.

  • Mel says:

    Good: As usual, Sars is spot on. There is nothing wrong with you taking a weekend for yourself. I suspect that your husband is unsure of his child-rearing skills and is uncomfortable feeling like the second-favorite parent. But he needs to step-up and let you take a break. Your daughter will cry for you, but it won’t hurt her. I’ve been the primary babysitter for my 2-year-old cousin for about a year now. The first few times his parents went out he cried most of the time. But now, though he still doesn’t want them to leave, we’re able to play and read and have fun. I absolutely love having this role in his life. I bet that if your husband can make it though the crying times, he’ll start to see your girls’ weekends as awesome father-daughter bonding time — and maybe that’s how you need to sell it to him.

  • K. says:

    I had a one-nighter with a stand-up comic a few years ago and I thought “Oh shit, I could be joke fodder.” But then I was like, feh. As far as I know, he hasn’t made it big yet (but then again, I probably wouldn’t know – he was a total random, not a friend of a friend or anything like that) and at this point, I MIGHT recognize him if I saw him on Comedy Central, but it’s more likely that I wouldn’t.

    GBH’s man said he wished he’d punched her and she’s hung in there for months afterward? No ma’am. I don’t even think it warrants a discussion.

  • Jenny says:

    @sars I understand about not scorching earth but he did say he wished he’d punched them BOTH and been done, which is at least troubling. I was in a very very similar situation and it was very much a precursor to convincing me I deserved to be hit. Just another reason to get away from the guy if he doesn’t knock it off.

  • Alie says:

    When I was a kid, my mom’s BFF (who I called “aunt”) had a miscarriage, or couldn’t get pregnant and really wanted a kid, or something similar (I was single digits at the time, so obviously didn’ t get a rundown on the grown up emotional issues). I learned about it because every year on Halloween, we’d go trick-or-treating around my neighborhood, then drive the four blocks over to her house and trick-or-treat at just her house and hang out while she admired our costumes and my parents had a beer with her and her husband. But one year we didn’t go, and my mom sort of gently explained that my aunt really wanted to have a baby, but couldn’t have one, so seeing so many kids all at once made her sad. I have a feeling that she had recently had a miscarriage, but at any rate for a couple years we hardly saw my aunt at all, though she hung out with my mom all the time. She eventually adopted a baby, who I consider my cousin, and we resumed our regularly scheduled visiting with the aunt.

    My point is that my mom was the type who tended (still does) to talk mostly about her kids in any setting. So I know that when she was hanging out with my aunt in the years I rarely saw her, my mom was talking about us. And sometimes I’d see my aunt, if I had to run into her house to drop something off while my mom waited in the car, or if we ran in to her at the supermarket, or if we went to the fair on the same day or whatever we might hang out. But it was more that the event which was designed to focus on the kids (seeing our costumes on Halloween, going to our birthday parties and showering us with attention, etc) was too painful for her to deal with. She sent us birthday presents through my mom or came by to drop them off and chat for a few minutes, she sent us christmas gifts, but any event that was a Whole Big Thing and designed with the kids at the center just didn’t involve her. I don’t think my mom minded–she needed to get away from us more often than she did, even–and once I knew what was going on, even at age 9, I got it. But my point is that Meg not wanting to see a baby, and be present for the other friend meeting the baby (focusing on the baby, pointing out all the adorable things baby does, reminding her of her own baby-related issues), isn’t the same thing as not wanting to hear about the baby. Talking about baby in casual conversation doesn’t put the subject of baby-having in quite as much focus as meeting the baby.

    That said, it seemed like Good was being very sensitive to her friend’s baby-related problems. I do know several women, though, who have had miscarriages that have felt like the death of a child. So it can be a really painful event. Good luck, Good.

  • KKP says:

    @Good – Infertility is such a balancing act among friends and couples. The best you can do (and I believe you’re doing it) is be aware of Meg’s feelings and emotions. Unfortunately, Meg also has to be aware that everybody else’s plans to get pregnant don’t stop and people don’t give up their kids just b/c she can’t. And Meg has to realize that on her own. As for other friends (or maybe just the one) speaking for her – a lot of the time that can come from that person’s own unease or confusion about what would make Meg happy or comfortable. Although the degree to which it’s being taken seems a bit ridiculous.

    Speaking of ridiculous – my husband goes out with friends more than I do (w/ my blessing) but when faced w/ him being on a golfing trip, I admit to being jealous that he gets to go far, far away from ‘parentland’ for an entire weekend. Sometimes I can deal w/ that jealousy and other times it becomes an issue. Maybe there’s a little of that going on?

  • SP says:

    Yeah, I dated a guy like GBH’s boyfriend for a while (obsessed over an experience I had *before* I met him). He wasn’t abusive, just insecure in a way that translated as self-absorbed and manipulative, and after a while he wasn’t worth the effort. Smart, funny, great in bed, caring, but…in the end, none of that outweighed the controlling-through-whininess problem.

    GBH, my guess is that this is a problem that won’t go away; if he agrees to let go of this, keep an eye on whether he just latches onto something new. Fights for hours, eight months after the fact? This isn’t an emotionally functional guy, I’m afraid.

  • Loree says:

    @Inappropriate – My friends and I have a saying: Don’t stick your dick in crazy. This is closely related to its corollary: Don’t let crazy stick its dick in you. This guy is demonstrably unbalanced, has already held you up for public ridicule, and you want to go back to him? Do you not see the impending trainwreck? No sex is good enough to ignore your self esteem.

    @Good – I agree with Sars on the Meg situation. And regardless of whether you decide to go, remember that you are allowed to be a person outside your nuclear family unit. Unless there’s something seriously wrong with your husband’s parenting skills (and it doesn’t sound like there is), the kiddo will survive if you’re not there at bedtime for a few days. It sounds a bit like he’s using her as a surrogate for his own insecurities, and maybe he needs increase his cope factor a bit.

    @GBH – Stop apologizing. If he can’t forgive you for a momentary lapse of judgment for which you’ve already atoned at length, DTMFA. Life is too short to spend it with manipulative dickbags who keep a running tally of all the ways you’ve wronged them.

  • Bev says:

    @ GBH
    I agree with everything Sars said, but would advise one step -learned from my therapist. When my SO really goes on about something minor, I have learned to ask ‘What do you need me to know right now to help you feel better ?
    or progress beyond this?

    I recommend it because if he can’t think of anything, i have nothing to feel guilty about AND it brings an end to whatever emotion has been going on under the radar.

    However, after that, i am again with Sars, time to leave.

  • Jen S says:

    GBH, “Whiny Ass” is right. This is probably the first time he’s had what he considers a “grown up” relationship problem, like the kind you see on One Tree Hill and Gossip Girl, and this is the way characters on those shows behave–lots and lots of dramatic confrontations and wailing and door slamming, all set to the latest Alt-Rock song (featured in a commercial at the break!) while wearing six hundred dollar jeans and carrying fifty seven different handbags containing at least half a dozen cell phones.

    The truth is, of course, that these are TV shows, and not only that, but totally unrealistic brain candy soap operas that double as fashion shows while advertising their sponsors’ products. Everyone goes through their early twenties dramatic phase but anybody with any sense knows the point is to go THROUGH it, not stand and wail and strike Byronic poses in Molassass Swamp. Tell your guy to cut his cable consumption and quit assuming that this is the appropriate way to deal with every emotional bruise and scrape.

  • Brigid says:

    Yeah, I think we all need to try to remember 20…the age of angst and insecurity (though it can be hard to look that far back lol). I get whiny totally. Abusive? I suppose if she allows it to go on, one could see it that way, but really in allowing it to continue, she’s really contributing to her own experience!

  • AngieFM says:

    Just wanted to weigh in on the first part of Good’s question. I have two kids, the youngest of whom is four. When faced with a “should I or shouldn’t I” around going out of town for a couple of days, I try to remember that a.) kids are resilient, b.) they often really love a change in their routine–it feels exciting, and c.) I can’t be too precious about it. A lot of people spend a lot more time away from their kids than I do, and for pretty un-fun reasons.

    If you do go, remember to be matter-of-fact about it with your daughter, and even show your excitement–not at being away from her, but about seeing your friends. If you show her that you’re unsure whether it’s a good idea to go, she’ll *definitely* think it’s a bad plan.

  • Faith says:

    (Not sure if this is gonna be a double post…I got an error the first time I tried, so I thought I’d give it a go again, but please feel free to delete the extra if there is any, Sars!)

    It never fails to amaze me how insensitive people can be towards women who have fertility issues. FFS, I don’t even WANT kids myself, but I still feel terribly for any of my friends that want them, and have to jump through (often very expensive) hoops to just attempt to conceive a child, and then hope that they don’t miscarry…again.

    I have a friend that basically disappeared off the face of the earth several years ago, for about 9 months. Turns out she’d had 2 miscarriages during that time, and she was an emotional and physical wreck. It was destroying her, and her marriage, and until she was able to get pregnant and have it stick, she needed to be on her own, or with close family, and that was IT. This wasn’t hard for me to understand, because she’s one of my favorite and oldest friends, and while it sucked that she didn’t want to spend time with anyone outside of that teensy, close circle, it was necessary for her. I love her, so I get what that was about. It’s common for this friend to fall off the face every now and then, though, because she’s a super-emotional person…she experienced very bad PPD after she had both of her children that she was eventually able to conceive, and after the 2nd one, she even missed my wedding because of it.

    The point being that it seems like Trying understands the pain that Meg is dealing with, but then she just brushes it off like, “Why’s it so hard for her to hang out with my kid, anyhow?” Um, maybe it’s because she can’t have any??? And it sounds like she really, really wants to. And while it does suck to walk on eggshells when it comes to a situation like that, it deserves a little bit more leeway than most other eggshellish situations, IMO. Because its a woman that wants to be a mother in the worst way…and for some reason, her body won’t let her. Maybe it’s just not time yet. Maybe it’ll never happen for her, ever. And that deserves a little more respect from those that are able to conceive and go on with life in a relatively easy fashion, if you ask me.

    Sorry, this issue really fires me up due to some personal interactions I’ve had over the past year or so. I don’t mean to come across as overly harsh, but I just want people to see that fertility issues are not something to be taken lightly. There are freaking crack whores out there having 3 or 4 babies in their drug-addled lifetimes, and Meg can’t even manage to carry one to full term. Guarantee you, that thought has crossed her mind, and it probably makes her feel like the whole goddammed world is against her, poor thing. ::sigh:: Just let Meg be, Trying.

    Oh, and Trying’s husband sound like a PITA. My parents went on loads of trips when I was a kid, and left us either with a babysitter, or over at friends’ houses. Your life as an individual (or a couple, for that matter) shouldn’t stop just because you have a kid at home. If you spend every waking moment with the child, it’s going to become dependent on having you around all. the. time. That’s just gonna fuck it up, IMO. Believe me, you do NOT wanna deal with that when it turns into a teenager/20-something. Blah. It’s just 2 nights, once a year. Tell him to suck it up. Sounds like he’s jealous, to me.

  • Carver he is not says:

    “an incident like this is a known risk when you get involved with writers and comedians, right or wrong”

    This is a good thing for people to know!
    I was flipping through a literary magazine when I came across a story with a sex scene that seemed very familiar. Imagine my suprise when I found out that my ex was the writer. Not cool. Consider me once warned…

  • Sarah D. Bunting says:

    The point being that it seems like Trying understands the pain that Meg is dealing with, but then she just brushes it off like, “Why’s it so hard for her to hang out with my kid, anyhow?” Um, maybe it’s because she can’t have any???

    I believe the issue is that the other friend won’t come to the house either, out of respect for Meg. That Meg doesn’t want to come, okay, but that the other friend is basically like, nobody’s visiting the baby because Meg can’t handle it — that’s taking it a bit too far, in my opinion.

    This is compounded by the fact that Meg herself has not said word one about the issue to the letter-writer. It’s all the other friend taking it upon herself to be the sensitivity police. I’m not saying it’s not something everyone should be mindful of, but Meg’s issues are now, apparently, governing the weekend, even though Meg has not managed to respond to any contact with the letter-writer.

    Which, generally speaking, I think is a bit much. Disappearing on people who care about you because you can’t bear to have a small-talk conversation that MIGHT include an infant is…still disappearing. Infertility is difficult and painful, of course, but it doesn’t give its sufferers the right to turn into Ford Madox Ford characters.

  • DT says:

    Good Mom — 2 nights away from your daughter at her age won’t be that rough for her. I have to travel for work 4-6 times a year, and have seen no negative effects from those nights away in either of my children (age 12 and 2). Your daughter will be just fine. Your husband could just be stressing about taking care of her on his own since he’s not used to it. I don’t blame him – kids that age can be tough, but he’ll be fine too. It’s tough about your friend though and I would agree with Sars that maybe a phone call to Meg would be a good idea. Good luck with all of it.

    And Sars hit the nail on the head with GBH. Nuff said.

  • Michael says:

    Byronic Poses in Molasses Swamp is totally my new band name.

  • Faith says:

    “This is compounded by the fact that Meg herself has not said word one about the issue to the letter-writer. It’s all the other friend taking it upon herself to be the sensitivity police. I’m not saying it’s not something everyone should be mindful of, but Meg’s issues are now, apparently, governing the weekend, even though Meg has not managed to respond to any contact with the letter-writer.”

    My friend turned down my wedding shower invite by explaining the problem with her son having just been born, and not being able to get away, and I totally understood and told her that I hoped all was well for her and the new baby with the expectation that I would see her and her husband at my wedding in a couple of months. Then I received the decline to their invitation to my wedding, and all it said was, “Sorry we can’t make it. Best of luck to you on your wedding day!” It was shocking. And painful. And I thought I’d been officially dumped. And then 5 months after the wedding, on a wine-soaked night when I suddenly couldn’t stop thinking about that note, I wrote her an email asking what happened? And she wrote me back, telling me about the post-pardum being even worse than it had been with her daughter (which was pretty darned awful, so I couldn’t imagine it being worse) and she couldn’t leave the baby with a sitter because he had attachment issues at that age, and if she’d attended the wedding alone without her husband, she wouldn’t have made it 10 minutes, and she was so, sooo sorry. And we were patched back up again after another several months of her having fallen off the planet. Again, maybe it’s because I’m familiar with this pattern with this particular friend of mine, but even I shut down and find it hard to communicate during emotional times in my life, and you can see what a wordy gal I am! It just…happens to some people sometimes.

    And I thought it was only a suggestion that her husband made that even brought up the idea of the friends visiting Trying’s house sometime during the weekend? According to the letter, the weekend has always been the girls getting together in a neutral spot…just them, and no family. But now that one of them has a baby, it should become more of an accommodating weekend for her, her daughter, and her husband? I get that these things can evolve, and probably should over long periods of time. But maybe this isn’t the right time for the evolution of the girls’ weekend, is the thing. I think that her husband is being unreasonable in his requests, and that Trying is being a little less understanding than she could be with her friend Meg’s situation. That’s all.

  • Terry says:

    @ Good
    You said “[…] and we have yet to take an actual trip as a family.” Is it possible that your hubby is offput because you went cross country with the girls last year and are taking another trip with the girls this year, but you and he and baby have yet to take a family vacation?

    As for Meg .. trust me on this, being the one wanting and trying to have a kid and failing is hard, but not so hard that I refuse to look at other people’s kids, especially my friend’s kids. Does it kind of hurt, yes, but we’re all adults and we learn to tough out certain situations.

  • Vix says:

    I was involved with a guy that sounds very much like GBH’s boyfriend. And we had that same fight over lesser things than a drunken smooch. I know that feeling of walking on eggshells trying to avoid references to any little thing that might set him off. The sight of a Dodge Avenger would spark fights that lasted into the wee hours of the morning simply because he knew that my ex-boyfriend (whom he hated) drove that kind of car and it KILLED him to see that, and why couldn’t I understand that?? I put up with it for a long time, and when I tried to leave, he became physically aggressive. Not abusive, per se. But he would block the door with his body and not let me go. Or he would back me into a wall to stop me from leaving.

    I put up with this nonsense for 3 years. It was a sick, unhealthy, emotionally abusive relationship that I stayed in because I thought I could fix it if I just proved to him that I was trustworthy and that his jealousy was unsubstantiated. But no amount of waiting or hoping trying to fix it is ever going to work. And no matter how much you demand that he stop manipulating and punishing you will actually make him stop. He might apologize and say that you’re right, and that he DOES forgive you, but my guess is that this pattern will continue to repeat itself.

    Sars is right. You’re better than that and don’t deserve to be treated this way. No matter how good the rest of the relationship is, you don’t want to wake up years down the road (like I did) and finally say, What the fuck was I thinking?

  • bluechaos says:

    Conveniently enough, those ‘freaking crack whore‘ babies are desperately in need of non-drug-addicted parents to adopt them.

  • Nik says:

    I can’t wait until I can use the phrase “Cheaty Hag”. That is all.

  • John says:

    GBH — Run! Run! This is a guy with a huge flashing red warning sign on him. Sars’ advice is, as usual, spot-on.

    Building a long relationship involves a lot of negotiation, making room, forgiving, and accommodating. If he really can’t get over something so insignificant and minor — doesn’t matter why — then he is completely unequipped to have an adult relationship. Imagine him still throwing this in your face six months from now. And a year later. Five years later. When you’re forty. Got that image? You want to hang around for that?

  • L says:

    SP says:
    February 10, 2010 at 2:28 PM
    Yeah, I dated a guy like GBH’s boyfriend for a while (obsessed over an experience I had *before* I met him). He wasn’t abusive, just insecure in a way that translated as self-absorbed and manipulative, and after a while he wasn’t worth the effort. Smart, funny, great in bed, caring, but…in the end, none of that outweighed the controlling-through-whininess problem.

    Huh. I dated this guy too. Minus the first sentence (first boyfriend, so nothing from ´the past ´). Anyhow, I second everyone ´s advice, either he shuts up about it, or you ´re out. Although in this particular relationship I often found that the whining was really just a way to pick a fight so that he could be rightfully angry about whatever. So even if he lets go of this particular problem, he might just go find a new one.

    Anyways, strangely enough we broke up over a long weekend trip to visit my cousin, so I ´m a little biased when I think that it ´s totally unfair for Good ´s husband to try to guilt her into not taking the trip (Seriously, traumatize the baby?? over a weekend trip??? I think it takes quite a bit more than that)

    And also: the advice about comedians and writers is spot on… a friend of mine just broke up with her beau who ´s kinda both and sure enough the whole dirt on their breakup is on his blog (with respectable fake names of course). So I ´ll try to remember to avoid that one…

  • autiger23 says:

    ‘he’ll start to see your girls’ weekends as awesome father-daughter bonding time — and maybe that’s how you need to sell it to him.’

    That’s exactly how my brother-in-law deals with my sister’s trips away. They tend to not be that long, but she needs her breaks and he understands that. He now plans cool, fun things for he and my niece to do while my sister is gone. They also plan little treats for her to get each day that her Mom is gone so she has something to look forward to other than missing her Mom. But she’s 12 (and has always been a pretty emotional kid), so it’s a bit different than a little one.

    I agree with all the folks saying that a lot of the issue may be about the husband worrying about his ability/desire to deal with the baby crying for Mom at bedtime. I understand about the shift work- my brother has three kids and works swing shifts, but are there just absolutely no days off at all where he can put her to bed with Mom in the other room/down the hall? That way he can get his feet wet with back-up close by and the baby can get used to someone other than Mom putting her to bed? That’s what my brother’s wife was forced to do (he was the one that put them all to bed from birth on up) when he did work the swings that had him not home at bedtime.

    I will say though, that I recently got back from a girls weekend and I stayed at a hotel on my own a couple of the nights and with another friend a couple of the nights. For me, I just need the down time and I’m too freaking old to sleep on a couch when there are other options. I felt a teeny bit excluded since I wasn’t there for everything, but I was still a part of the weekend and it was still tons of fun. So, if you have to drive an hour each way a couple days to accomodate your husband, it won’t ruin your weekend unless you let it. Also, you could use it as showing him that you are willing to compromise (more) and that next year when it isn’t close to home, he’ll have to deal.

    Definitely talk Meg directly prior to the event, if nothing more than a ‘hey, if you don’t want to talk about kids, I absolutely can do that, but the utter silence from you is hurting my feelings’.

  • Jessica says:

    Explaining where I’m coming from: my kid was born three days before Master S (which, hi, cute baby photo withdrawal!). In my online mama group, a woman who was supposed to also have a C-section that day had her son stillborn two days earlier. Since then we (the community) have had a couple people miscarry in the first trimester, a couple people come explicitly because they were dealing with miscarriages at 18-19 weeks, and most recently, horribly, one woman lose her son to preterm labor at 22 weeks. And I will say, as someone on the fortunate side, that I have had a very hard time figuring out when my talking about my kid in the community is OK and when I might be acting as a painful reminder of what might have been.

    point is: two miscarriages in a year implied that they happened relatively early, but that might not be the case. Losing a kid in the first trimester is rough. Losing a kid in the first semester twice is even rougher. Losing a kid past the first trimester ratchets up the emotional pain, because you’ve heard the heartbeat, you may have seen the baby on an ultrasound, you’ve probably told the future grandparents… et cetera. And then to compound that with worries that you may never be able to carry a baby to term… it may be that Meg had two first-trimester miscarriages, but if one or both of them went longer than that, that would compound the pain. Regardless, I’m sorry she and her husband are going through this.

    This is not to disagree with Sars’s advice, because the friend running interference at this point between Good and Meg isn’t helping. (Can the friend visit separately, without Meg, or without it being part of the girls’ weekend?) But Good, it is fair for you to expect some sort of clarification from Meg directly. Make it clear to her you don’t want to hurt her; if she wants you to keep the kid mentions to a minimum, you can do that; if she’s at a point vis-a-vis the miscarriages that being a good friend has been hard for her to handle, you understand that. But if you’re going to be spending a weekend together, she ought to be able to tell you what she’s been going through and what she needs from you.

    As for the last letter: I believe the appropriate abbreviation is DTMFA.

  • Jessica says:

    …aaaand just realized that asking for a photo of a recent cute baby in a comment where I’m discussing the pain of infertility and miscarriages is… tone-deaf, at best. Apologies.

  • c8h10n4o2 says:

    Good: My parents used to dump me with family friends when we lived in South America and they were going on vacation to countries that weren’t the most stable (like and really were in the mid-70s). I was 2 and had a great time and looked forward to it. I looked forward to them coming home, too, but it hardly sent me into therapy. My mom also got severely ill while we were there and my dad had to completely take over taking care of me. He was a good Daddy before, but that sealed the deal. Once the hubby gets comfortable with flying solo he might actually start actively seeking out little bits of daddy/daughter ritual time and they’ll be keeping secrets from you in no time. Be warned.

  • Kari says:

    Just weighing in on the sensitivity to infertility issues… My husband and I have been trying to conceive for… well, next month will be FOUR YEARS. I hate to admit it, but there were times where I didn’t want to see, hear about, or know anything related to ANYBODY’S baby. I recognize now that I can’t push my family and friends away because we are all of childbearing age/time now, but at some points during this journey, I just could NOT see that. In this day and age, pregnancy is a much more touted and talked about issue, from tv shows, to stars baby news, and more, not to mention the pregnant people at work, on the street, the shower invitations. Some days I just feel completely inundated with baby/pregnancy news from other people and it’s really really hard.

    I’ve come to accept my issue, and I do what I can to be supportive to and happy for my friends, but I wasn’t always there. That being said, I knew that it was MY issue, and if I wasn’t going to be able to deal with a given situation, I removed MYSELF, not expecting everyone else (except maybe my husband) to change their plans around it. I think it’s great that they want to be sensitive to their friend’s situation, but friend needs to also take responsibility for her own emotions. Infertility is a really difficult topic to talk about with people, and often my family/friends had no idea why I was not participating in/attending certain parties/discussions. But, it sounds like Meg’s infertility is no secret, so I agree that she should be a big girl, and choose what is comfortable or not for her.

    Either way, as a new mom, Good should not feel guilty (or be made to feel that way) about taking some time away from the family. It sounds like Daddy may need this weekend to bond more with the baby anyway. Anyway, I appreciate those of you here at TN that recognize that infertililty is a devastating situation for those of us living it, and the fact that you try to be sensitive to it. My fam could take a lesson. ;) (*fingers crossed for this month’s treatment* –hopefully Valentine’s Day is lucky for me this year).

  • Erin says:

    bluechaos, that is something I hear a LOT surrounding infertility – there are so many babies who need adopting! The truth is that a) there are not – the majority of those ‘freaking crack whores’ keep their babies, at least at first, and b) it’s not that easy. Adoption is an incredibly long and expensive process – waiting lists of, like, 8 years and costs of approx. $20,000. Fostering is much simpler (but again, not at all simple) but it comes with it’s own different set of issues.

    Good, I think a little of both. I’m in kind of a similar position to Meg and my best friend has a 4 month old and there are times that it really really hard to listen to her talk about her baby. It’s possible that Meg has been reluctant to talk to you about how hard it is for her because she is trying to avoid bringing you down or making you feel guilty, and your other friend is trying to help by making you aware of it? I suspect Meg is not comfortable talking to you about her situation herself because she thinks you can’t understand, since you seem to have gotten pregnant without any issues (I’m assuming).

    I can kind of see how it would be hard on Meg, in the middle of girls weekend, for everybody to pack up and go to your place to coo over your new baby. Maybe your friend who hasn’t met the baby can stay an extra night and come meet her then? As for talking about the baby, remember that nobody said you couldn’t, that’s just an extrapolation you’re making. I’d say just use your judgement and be sensitive. I love my friend’s baby desperately but when she says, even jokingly, that she is “ruining her life” because she can’t get a full night sleep or drink because she’s breastfeeding it hits a nerve.

    Finally, I’d say that everybody has lives and while your child is the most important thing in yours, it doesn’t sound like you’ve scheduled your weekends about other people’s stuff (like a new boyfriend or a dog) so I don’t think they’re treating you “like crap” by not making concessions for you. Especially when you already went once when the baby was younger. It’s one weekend, she’s a friend who’s going through a hard time, I’d say be as sensitive as you can and hope that by next year she’ll be pregnant or in a better place and it will be a non-issue.

    And Sars, w/r/t “I mean, yes, your friends are being a little melodramatic with this, I think, and the assumption that you will spend the entire 48 hours banging on about rice cereal and Dr. Spock is dumb and pretty insulting. Some parents do do this; most parents have cable, and opinions about things besides toileting strategies.”, I’d point out that the friends didn’t say she couldn’t talk about the baby, that’s a conclusion she’s jumped to, but she also says that the baby is the biggest part of her life and she’s limited as to what she can talk about so…

  • Sara says:

    Good, don’t let your husband make you feel guilty. He’s just jealous. The baby wont mind as much as he will.

  • Sarah D. Bunting says:

    I can kind of see how it would be hard on Meg, in the middle of girls weekend, for everybody to pack up and go to your place to coo over your new baby.

    I’m really not seeing where this was suggested in the original letter. The husband asked if spending *part* of a day at their house would be an option, since Other Friend had not met the baby yet; Good didn’t think up this plan, and I suspect only suggested it because Husband was being kind of a pill about the situation on his side, and it was not Meg who shot it down, it was Other Friend.

    This isn’t the awesomest idea in the second place, but I get the feeling it stemmed 95% from Husband not wanting Good off-campus for the entire weekend.

    And no, her friends didn’t say she couldn’t talk about the baby, but if you were told, “We’re not going to your house even for a few minutes because Meg can’t be reminded about babies,” would you then think that talking about the baby was okay? Because I’d infer that the entire subject is off-limits.

    The biggest part of MY life right now is trying to whip this 90+-year-old house into shape when I do not have a paying job at the moment. It’s like living in a French-resistance apartment at times around here, except with worse food; that’s the bulk of my waking hours (and some of my sleeping ones), but I try to confine my talking about the house to a couple of paragraphs, because I don’t want to be That Guy who only talks about goddamn skim-coat. Not everything that’s a big deal to you is a big deal to others; you have to read the room.

    But it’s her kid, and these are her friends, and turning the daughter into That Envied Thing Which Shall Not Be Invoked…it’s an effort to protect Meg, which I respect, but it’s forcing Good to do all the compromising, which is less cool, and the overall context of the letter is everyone on both sides kind of trying to boss her and have her be the one who adapts. If she’d only written to me about the Meg side of it, I might have a different sense of it, but as it is, I think she’s letting people run her a little too much.

    And keep in mind we really don’t know where Meg is in all of this. We have Good’s report of Other Friend’s mention of blah blah blah telephone-game-cakes.

  • Jessica says:

    1) Good luck, Kari!

    2) Seconding Erin’s point that just because Meg might not necessarily want to go over to a house full of toddler stuff, and meet said toddler, it does not follow that she will crumple at the first mention of toddler’s name.

    3) re Meg’s silence: it might be — I’m speculating here — that the first two months of the six-month silence were, “I just can’t deal with Good and Fertile right now,” and the next four months were closer to, “I told Good I thought of myself as an aunt to her kid, and now I haven’t been able to even acknowledge kid’s existence? God, I’m a terrible friend.”

  • tortoise says:

    *waves at Jessica*

    Okay, sorry, I have nothing more important than that to add.

  • KG says:

    @Good: It’s not all that clear to me whether Meg’s two miscarriages were in that six-month period, or if they were more spread out from each other in the year she’s been trying to get pregnant. Two miscarriages in a year is horrible, two in six months would likely turn me into a basket case. I can understand Meg cutting off contact with some or all of her friends for awhile. I agree with Jessica that part of it might be guilt, also.

    I’m also wondering if the emails and calls Good made to Meg all brought up her infertility issues, or if they of the “hey, we haven’t talked for awhile, how are you?” variety. While it might be hard for Meg to talk to Good because of Good’s luck in the baby department, it can also be hard to talk to someone who insists on being sympathetic and understanding when it’s the last thing you want to deal with.

  • anotherkate says:

    So this is off topic, but Sars I love reading about home renovation/ improvement/ DIY stuff, and I would totally read about skim coats, and wood refinishing, and annoying Victorian windows with lead weights, etc. I doubt I’m the only one in your readership who likes that stuff either.

  • Sara says:

    Wow, Good. Complicated situation with Meg. My sister lost a child. And the thing that people don’t get is that miscarriages, or any loss of a child before birth, is treated like it doesn’t count. “You can try again” “you can always have another”. But when those pregnancies were intentional? Mommy becomes attached far more quickly than women who didn’t intend to get pregnant and didn’t find out until their third month or later. It’s difficult to say it exactly the way I mean it but it’s sort of like people don’t think those babies counted; as pro-choice, I always use the term fetus until a certain point but you can’t expect the mother to. And if Meg has done this multiple times….she’s a bereaved mother several times over. And it’s only been six months? Jesus. A direct conversation with Meg is in order – and conversations with another friend, and that other friend’s reasonings, shouldn’t be counted against Meg unless you know that’s Meg’s opinion as well. That Meg isn’t bailing on the weekend is a good sign- if she were completely against seeing you she wouldn’t go. Maybe you should take this opportunity, since I’m assuming all of you won’t be spending every waking moment together, to finally have this discussion with Meg.

    You’re confusion about how being around your daughter might be difficult for Meg because you got pregnant before she started trying – that doesn’t even make sense, imo. I don’t quite understand what you becoming a mom first and Meg’s previous relationship with your daughter has to do with how Meg’s losses are naturally going to affect how she handles being around children. My sister decided to start trying because she liked being around our cousing’s child so much; maybe your daughter had some similar role?

    IDK. Maybe I’m overly sensitive. It just seems like for every line that seems to get Meg’s problem there’s one that’s sort of trying to box it away and say it shouldn’t have to do with anything.

  • Jo says:

    To the first commenter: If it’s wrong that you want to hear the joke the comedian told, then I’m there with you, because I’m totally curious.

    GBH: Someone else beat me to this, but as Dan Savage would say, DTMFA.

  • Katie says:

    “The biggest part of MY life right now is trying to whip this 90+-year-old house into shape when I do not have a paying job at the moment. It’s like living in a French-resistance apartment at times around here, except with worse food; that’s the bulk of my waking hours (and some of my sleeping ones), but I try to confine my talking about the house to a couple of paragraphs, because I don’t want to be That Guy who only talks about goddamn skim-coat. Not everything that’s a big deal to you is a big deal to others; you have to read the room.”

    Completely off topic, but Sars, I can’t be the only one who wishes you would in fact post on the subject of your house! Perhaps I’m just nosy but its something I’m so interested in at the moment – husband and I are doing a massive house conversion/extension project at the moment, though we’re lucky in that we are not living in it while its a building site!

  • CindyP says:

    Sars is right on with the advice to Good, including about alone time/girl time being healthy for her relationship with her husband.

    However, I’m with Terry above. I think any sit-down talk with her husband also has to include discussion of what his and her expectations are of family vacations together (and why haven’t they been on a family trip together, anyway? If it’s his work schedule, then it’s a little unfair of him to throw that in her face; but if it’s money, then I can see how he feels upset by money going to two girls’ weekends when they haven’t been on even one weekend away for the three of them; etc.) Frankly, if my husband had gone on two guys’ weekends before our son was two years old, and hadn’t gone away with me and the baby at all…I would have been a mess at the mention of the second one!

  • Jaybird says:

    My reaction to hearing about anyone’s fertility issues used to be, “Oh, for crap’s sake–just get over it and adopt.” And then, two women very close to me lost their babies, one at 3 weeks after birth and the other to a tubal pregnancy and later miscarriages. It just isn’t that simple, whether you’re talking legalities or biology. I got pregnant the first time 3 months into marriage, and while I will be forever grateful that I didn’t have to deal with infertility personally, I will also be forever humbled by the fact that I do not have the first effing clue about how it feels, and therefore cannot in good conscience just toss off some flip advice about it, as I used to do..

    So, there’s definitely an inclination to cut Meg a great deal of slack. Second Friend: Feelings Cop, however, needs to shut it and step waaaaaaayyyy off.

  • Sandman says:

    “It’s like living in a French-resistance apartment at times around here, except with worse food…”

    Would it be okay if I laughed with you, and not at you? Because “Hee!’ and “Aw!” are kind of battling it out in my head right now. Good luck with everything.

  • SorchaRei says:

    My very very good friend adopted a child right around the time I was coming to understand that despite my deep need to be someone’s mother, I never will be. It almost destroyed our friendship, because the pain was so intense.

    Here’s the thing that helped the most: saying to her, “You know what? I am incredibly happy for you, and this is one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to watch”. She knew instantly what I meant (they came to adoption after discovering an infertility problem that can’t be worked around) and her immediate response was, “I am so sorry that our unbelievable luck is also underlining your pain. What can I do to help?”

    The pain didn’t go away, but having it out in the open was incredibly freeing to me (and, I suspect, to her). It was one of the hardest things I ever said to anyone, felt like raining on her parade, and seemed so self-absorbed, but it was the biggest fact of my life that year, that I will never be someone’s mother, and until I did say it, it lay between us in a horrible way. After I said it and she was so accepting of it, I really could move on and be almost entirely happy that she got this great good fortune — and when it was too hard not to cry a little, I knew she understood.

    Which is a long-winded way of saying that since the mutual friends seem to be so involved, maybe one gift that Good can give to herself and to Meg is to say to one of these friends, “Look, I am more than willing to be supportive of Meg’s feelings here, but she’s avoiding me entirely. I promise to be compassionate, honest. Can you do us all the favor of convincing her to talk to me herself and let me know what her limits are?”

    Maybe it won’t help, but I bet it would, even if Meg doesn’t think so.

  • Jane says:

    Another “Good luck, Kari!” here, and a general support for her comment. Good friends are sensitive about others’ terrible personal griefs, but that doesn’t translate into an obligation for a friend to disguise her own life in accordance with that grief; if we’ve tragically lost a spouse, for instance, we can’t expect that people will avoid mentioning their own partners or upcoming weddings around us forever. Of course it could still hurt too much to hear, because sometimes grief is like that, but the pain we feel is not necessarily the most important thing for everybody to consider in our friendship–we also have obligations to allow our friends to have their own important feelings, including joy in areas where we haven’t been fortunate.

    I do think that Good could consider recalibrating a little in thinking about Meg’s emotional situation–not wanting to see a baby really doesn’t necessarily mean she won’t want to see a baby’s mother– but I think the real problem there is the Megaphone Friend. Good doesn’t know what Meg thinks, she just knows that a protective friend has an opinion. Meg herself needs to be sympathetically consulted, and unless she’s authorized the Megaphone, Megaphone may need to back off a little.

Leave a comment!

Please familiarize yourself with the Tomato Nation commenting policy before posting.
It is in the FAQ. Thanks, friend.

You can use these tags:
<a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>