The Vine: February 8, 2012
I have an “expired friendship” question. I’ve known this friend (Mark, let’s say) since our first year of college, which was nearly twenty years ago. I considered him one of my closest friends, and he would have said the same. He was always smart and funny and fun to be with. However.
About ten years ago, Mark told me that he suffered from addiction (sexually compulsive behavior and some drug issues). He’d hidden it from everyone for years. He was seeing a therapist, went to various twelve-step programs, and threw himself into recovery. That was all good, and while he’s suffered relapses, he is a healthier person. His whole life, however, became about his recovery. He has few (maybe zero, now) friends that are not “from group,” he attends group daily (sometimes several times a day), he goes on retreats, and he sees his therapist at least once a week. He became, really, a therapy addict and a zealot, insisting that everyone is actually sick and should be in therapy, and lots of it at that. I don’t have a problem with therapy, but I don’t think it’s a panacea, nor is it for everyone.
So while it was good for him, to a point, his new therapy-centric life didn’t fix his worst quality: tremendous self-involvement. In fact, therapy seemed to aggravate his narcissism by validating — in his mind, at least — his self-absorption. He’d always been unreliable, but now he was supposed to “focus on himself” and to him that meant license to never do anything he didn’t feel like doing. Like skipping a friend’s wedding (that was being held ten minutes away) because he didn’t feel like going. There are dozens of examples, most small, some big.
For a while I forgave his thoughtlessness — he has an addiction, he’s in recovery. But after ten years in recovery, and the millionth time he was rude to someone since he “needed to focus on me right now,” I realized: this is just who he is. I would occasionally tell him that I felt I couldn’t rely on him (and his unreliability was a running joke among our friends) and he would say that he didn’t want to be that kind of person…but it never changed. He was never going to be done focusing on himself. So over a year and a half ago I took a break. There were precipitating events, though nothing out of the ordinary for him (he hurt the feelings of a friend who was visiting by repeatedly blowing him off). We didn’t have a discussion, there was no fight, I just had had enough. He tried contacting me a few times, then he gave up.
I had some misgivings, of course, because I hate to walk away from such a long friendship. It was nice, however, to have the stress and anger out of my life. Any remaining misgivings were swept away when I discovered that a few months ago he dumped his dog (whom I had helped him adopt a couple years earlier through the shelter I volunteer for) back at the shelter. Reason? He needed more time to focus on himself. Working with homeless dogs is probably my one real passion, and after that, there really is no salvaging the relationship.
Today Mark emailed me saying he’s been “looking at [his] past relationships” and that he wants see me to “connect with [me] about some of [his] past behavior.” It’s quite a formal email and he says he doesn’t think this meeting would take a long time, so I don’t think he is trying to restart the friendship. I instead get the distinct idea that the purpose of the meeting is therapeutic. I can’t imagine what I might get out of the conversation, and that irritates me. I made a conscious decision to move on and now he wants to see me, not because of anything to do with me, but in order to help him understand his own behavior. From his email, I gather I’m either supposed to passively listen to him talk about his actions, or actively help him understand his past behavior. Neither is palatable to me, since both underscore his continuing narcissism.
The question! Do I sit there and listen to Mark talk about himself, or do I tell him I’m not up for it? If the latter, do I explain why, or if the former, do I relate to him my frustration at being used? I’m irked that I’m expected to be a sounding board as he navel-gazes, and even if what he contemplates is an apology or making amends…what is the point? I don’t want an apology or amends; I just don’t want to deal with him anymore. On the other hand, it’s not like he’s really asking for a lot, especially after so many years, and I generally like to be helpful and nice. I’m not an analyst — maybe he is really making progress in therapy that I don’t see and something like this would really help him. So…I’m torn. And would welcome a fresh perspective on this.
Thanks. You can sign me…
So Very Tired Of This
Dear Tired,
I see what you’re saying. I’d usually ask right up front what you want out of the interaction, but you’ve already got that straight for yourself: you don’t want anything.
…Well, not from Mark. Another thing you want, I think, is to not come off like that asshole who wouldn’t accept an amends from someone who’s trying to get better, which is understandable, but 1) so is wanting to keep your distance here, and deciding to hold your boundary doesn’t make you an asshole; and 2) my understanding, if this is in fact an amends scenario, is that the addict/amender understands that not everyone he approaches with amends is going to want to let him back in, even briefly, and he has a support structure for that. In other words, if you want to “do you” and not get sucked in, it doesn’t make you a jerk and it won’t shove him off the wagon.
By that same token, going and hearing him out doesn’t make you a sucker by extension. You give him one last half-hour of your time, you hear him out, and you return to your life. Yeah, it’s an imposition, but at this point, you know better than to expect anything from him, so you do him a small mitzvah and go back to not dealing with him.
…Hmm, I guess I’m torn also. You know what? Don’t go, and here’s why. You’re already annoyed, and you’re already trying to come up with ways to explain to him — for what it sounds like is the fiftieth time — why his self-absorption alienates you and hurts your feelings, and you shouldn’t go back down that road, because the scenery isn’t going to have changed. If you do feel like you can sit with him over a cup of coffee and listen to what he has to say and not feel a lava flow of “AND WE’RE TALKING ABOUT YOU AGAIN ARGH” rising into the back of your throat, great. If you already feel that lava flow, honestly, meeting up with him won’t do much good for you or him.
So. Be real with yourself about whether reconnecting with him is going to dredge up the old feelings of disappointment and frustration that caused you to let the friendship go in the first place — and if it is, respond with a simple “I won’t be able to do that; best of luck to you.”
Tags: friendships
Wow, I completely agree with Sars’s conclusion; don’t go. I might be persuaded if his approach had been “I know I’ve been an asshole and I’m really sorry” rather than “I’ve been thinking about me; let’s discuss me”, and if he couldn’t shift himself to consider your feelings in the email (which presumably he’s had oodles of time to compose), he’s unlikely to in person. Send the message Sars recommends. When he writes back all “Whyyyyeeee?” — and he will — ignore that one and each one hence.
Jeez Louise, this guy really fits the bill of Anne Lamott’s description of the Egoist With Inferiority Complex–the piece of shit around which the world revolves.
You know how an email from someone who’s really ready to make real amends would headline? “I’m Sorry.” and the body of the message would be an apology. If there was any requests for face to face meetings, it would come in a humble manner, with an outline of acceptance should you choose to not follow thorough with it.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, recovery is not the same as hostage taking. And being a captive audience to someone so they can bloviate about how modest they are, while not the same as someone stealing your money to buy drugs, is unhelpful to to all parties involved.
Don’t go. It won’t benefit you and it won’t benefit him.
I agree with Sars. I wouldn’t go, either. If he were just starting the recovery/therapy process, then it might be a different thing. However, he’s been on this road for over a decade now, I would suspect this is just one more attempt at him trying to “focus on himself”, and by extension, bring you back around to focusing on him, too.
I don’t know enough about the process. Is it possible that the very fact that he is “making amends” means that he might possibly have gotten somewhere? If the answer is yes, then it might be worth going. If not, then I agree with Sars. If just the thought makes the bile rise in your throat, skip it.
You know how an email from someone who’s really ready to make real amends would headline? “I’m Sorry.” and the body of the message would be an apology.
I think this is sometimes true; I think this is probably true here. But I’ve also received amends that were “headlined” in a very formal (really, stilted) fashion. These were voicemails, so it’s different, but I assumed there was a script at work, one which is purposefully used so as to strike a different tone.
Not that you can’t use different icing on the same old shit cupcake, and this is just anecdotal whatever, but the LW specifically mentioned that formal presentation (I also suspect amends are not supposed to be made via email/leaving a message, which could explain that part of it).
She’s still probably better off not going, though. Maybe someone who’s more familiar with the amends-making firsthand can speak to this.
Yeah, don’t go. There’s a very small chance he’s actually figured it out, and if he has, he’ll understand your refusal to see him as a reasonable consequence of his actions. If he hasn’t, which is far more likely, he’ll just weave this into the Narrative Of Me he’s got going on already, and go on with his life.
I mean: he dumped his shelter dog to focus on himself. He doesn’t deserve your time.
I concur; I probably wouldn’t spend any more time on this either. A piece of me does wonder if this person is working Step 8, as in a 12-step program; but even if that’s the case, Tired would still have to decide whether it’s worth the effort and energy.
“We have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we took inventory. We subjected ourselves to a drastic self- appraisal. Now we go out to our fellows and repair the damage done in the past. We attempt to sweep away the debris which has accumulated out of our effort to live on self-will and run the show ourselves. If we haven’t the will to do this, we ask until it comes. Remember it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol. ”
-A.A. Big Book p.76
I think “Don’t go” is a fine answer. I also think there’s another possibility, though. I’ve had an amended version of this situation with family, and I’ve been up-front–“We can talk, as long as that means you listen first, and you listen most, because I’m done with being the audience.” So you could tell him that straightforwardly and see if he’s willing to meet with that understanding.
I don’t think you owe him a meeting, though, and if he’s genuinely serious about narcissism recovery or whatever, the no is a valuable piece of education too. You’re not only contributing if you sit there and nod.
I’ve been in a 12 step program for a loooong time, and I agree with Sars: skip it. Say no thank you, say it again, be done with it. You don’t HAVE to hear his amends. He’ll get over it.
(Confession: just reading about this guy’s behavior made me want to slap him, so I may be feeling more harsh than is strictly warranted.)
Wow, just reading a few hundred words about this guy exhausts me. I wouldn’t go, for all the reasons Sars set forth. I think Jen S 1.0 has a really good point about hostage-taking – just because Mark is in the midst of making amends and processing his blah blah with people doesn’t mean that Tired is obligated to participate, particularly since she (he?) already decided to move on from this friendship.
I have mixed feelings about amends-making processes, to be honest. While I know it can be a very cathartic and valuable experience for the person making amends, I feel like it runs the risk of coming at the expense of the person from whom amends are sought, which…kinds of defeats the purpose. This is, of course, my personal bias that comes from having been on the receiving end of an amends-making attempt that was NOT welcome at all.
We all seem to agree that there is no
good reason for you to go to this meeting.
I think telling him in an email
that you need “time to focus on yourself”
would convey that very well.
I wouldn’t even respond to him at all. He hasn’t changed. He’s still addicted; he’s just switched his drug of choice. A person in therapy/recovery isn’t going to get anywhere if he doesn’t actually want to change. He wants to tell people he’s changing so maybe they won’t call him on his crap. I feel for people who struggle with addiction/compulsive behavior, but ultimately it’s up to the person to clean up their act or suffer the consequences. It’s not the duty of everyone around the person to say, “Well, he’s a colossal dildo, but we have to ignore that because he has XYZ problems.”
I’m tempted to encourage you to send back a flippant “I’m choosing to take the time I would spend meeting with you to focus on myself” e-mail, but that would be rude. But, seriously. Focus on yourself. You aren’t friends with the guy anymore and you don’t want to be. Why waste your time? If he really is on the road to recovery (hint: his tone indicates he isn’t), that’s great, but it doesn’t give him a free pass back into your life. Politely tell him that you are really busy right now and won’t be able to meet, but you wish him all the best. Done.
I’m just guessing (and maybe doing some negative projecting of past experiences), but I agree with the other posters/Sars when they say DON’T BOTHER. The last thing anybody needs is a half hour of their lives (or longer!) that they can never get back, wasted on someone who, given their long-term pattern, is probably just going to attempt to justify their own deep self-absorption.
You mention that “From his email, I gather I’m either supposed to passively listen to him talk about his actions, or actively help him understand his past behavior. Neither is palatable to me, since both underscore his continuing narcissism.”
Maybe I’m being cold-blooded, but my instinctive reaction to this is, “NO, you may NOT have any more of my time. Best wishes, stay well, and don’t adopt any more animals thank you bye bye now.”
As you noted, you get nothing from this, because it’s all about him. And I completely understand how you’d feel when you heard about the dog issue. I have no sympathy for that kind of behavior.
Best wishes to you – I’m going to stop here because otherwise I’ll drive myself into a blithering rage … :)
Don’t go. And Sars, “Different icing on the same old shit cupcake” is golden!
I am another person who loves rescue animals and finds dumping one for no reason almost unforgivable. On the other hand, I suggest you meet him and ask him what amends he is going to make for his behavior with his dog. Presumably the dog has found a home by now, but he could volunteer for the shelter, donate money or supplies, or some other form of helping animals to make up for the harm he caused. I’m sure it’s not the topic he wishes to address, but I’m absolutely serious – if he wants to become a better person, it’s a wonderful place to start, and it’s something you could get out of going to the meeting in the first place. And if he just gets annoyed at your constantly bringing the conversation back to the dog, he’s less likely to keep contacting you?
Another 12-Stepper weighing in. When making amends, there’s an exception: “when to do so would injure them or others.” After years of dealing with this BS, aggro is close enough to injury to count, and Tired, you sound like you already have plenty of that. Mark is right about one thing, his program is all about him. That means you’re in the free and clear, because he doesn’t need your help to complete this part of it. I feel you though; there are certain people that if they wanted to make amends to me, I’d be on the fence. But in the end it’s about making the best choice for one’s mental health.
I have nothing to add here because I agree with everybody saying it’s not going to help you to go, so don’t. But I do want to say to the letter writer that she or he really articulates how I feel about a former friend with a different issue but seemingly the same narcissistic addiction to her own pain and “recovery.” Thanks for helping strengthen my own resolve not to get sucked in, and I wish the best for you.
Don’t go.
The kind of care Mark takes of himself – in this situation, take that kind of care of yourself.
I have spent a disproportionate amount of my life as an audience, listening to people 4th step and 8th step.
There have been times that has been a genuine thing – someone authentically present and doing their darnedest to step up and at least acknowledge the consequences of their choices while active in their disease. Those times are truly gifts – not the amends itself, but getting to participate in the growth of someone that I love. And that’s pretty much the key, at least for me – if you’re going to be there, you have to be there with an open heart, because at least for me, showing up for that conversation at all is a flag of being willing to show up for the relationship again.
Which takes me to the other times – the times when someone’s just going through the motions, either to get attention or because “it’s time” and it’s soul-killing to sit through, let alone feel good about.
So yeah – don’t go.
I’m genuinely curious: how clear are these programs about doing no harm during Step 8? I’ve read stories of everyone from schoolyard bullies to serial rapists tracking down their victims to “make amends” (i.e., “I need this off my conscience, so I’ll make you relive it”). I’m lucky that the only person to pull Step 8 on me was a former summer fling who treated me like crap (and hey, I let him). Sure enough, last I heard from him, the self-righteousness was alive and well in him. If anything, it had gotten worse.
I believe in redemption and in second chances, but not third chances to repeat the mistakes you did in the first two rounds. Decline the invitation, and quietly ignore the inevitable follow-up messages asking why.
Tired,
You don’t owe this guy anything – not a meeting, not your help, nada. So the only reason to go would be if you needed closure or finality or an apology, and it sounds like you don’t expect those things. Think back to the last time you spent time with or interacted with him where he either was more concerned with your needs than his own or just made you feel good. Can’t remember it? Cry a few tears over the guy you used to like and move on. Remember it fondly but it’s long ago now? Hold onto that memory, cry the tears and move on. You’ve changed and grown since college and he has not. Sucks, but you deserve friends whose company is a joy and not a chore.
I agree with Sars and the others who’ve weighed in so far – dude is still causing you aggravation just by being out there, emailing you. I wouldn’t respond, even to decline, because you’re still so irritated.
I would also like to say that this is one of the most well-written advice letters I’ve ever read. Every point is relevant without oversharing, no meandering thought trails or side stories, and the material is presented in a straight-forward and engaging manner. Vine letters are often better than most, but this one is among the best, in my opinion on something that is, in the end, irrelevant. But there you go.
LW here; thanks for all the thoughts and advice. It’s nice to know it isn’t crazy to feel so torn. Of course, I shamelessly pandered to the audience by including the detail about the dog-abandoning (if anyone is worried, she was in fact adopted again, but it took a while). I’ve never been so perfectly balanced on the fence on an issue.
I did actually respond to him before Sars could publish this letter, and I told him all my misgivings but also that I would sit there for the length of a cup of coffee for old times’ sake and let him say his piece. He did respond (in a weird coincidence, today) and clarify that this is an “amends-making,” that he wants 15 minutes to apologize for the harm, see if he can make it up, etc. If I say I don’t want to meet him still, I will apparently be treated to a written apology. Goody.
But I agree with Bria: I kind of get the “amends-making” and it does seem like an important step, but it also sort of feels like cheaters who only want to confess so THEY feel better. And I agree that a refusal to participate, a “no, you can’t just say sorry and make it better” is also a way to help someone grow.
Anyway…thanks everyone. I still feel pretty torn about it, but I do feel more that an ultimate choice to refuse this meeting would be valid and not just mean.
Eh,if you can get yourself into a nice zen state, go. What the hell. How often do you get to tell someone “I think you have Narcissitic Personality Disorder and I expect you to make a substatial donation to the animal shelter?” and or “I’m glad you’re sorry, because I miss all the good parts of our friendship. (which is all over)” It’s 15 minutes of your life, you might learn something about a situation that’s been bothering you for a long time.
If you’re completely pissed about that whole idea don’t bother, but if you can back up and just observe, it might be interesting. Take good care of yourself, and good luck.
Erin in SLC: 12-step programs are very clear about doing no harm in the amends-making process. (Actually it is step nine: “Made direct amends to such people [i.e., those we have harmed] wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.”) The AA Big Book goes into detail about how we are not supposed to trade others’ peace of mind for our own and gives examples.
Sadly, we alcoholics and addicts are sick people, and I have heard of people having to make amends for their amends, including the living amends of not troubling the poor recipient of their amends a second time.
I’m late to this party, and I understand that LW already responded; but what about responding to the email with, “Maybe. Are we going to talk about you the whole time?” but less rude? It seems like a legitimate question to ask for your own sake, to gauge whether or not to go; and while I don’t expect it to “shock” a true navel-gazer out of himself, it might give him pause — e.g. “Why would she ask that? Hmmm.”
Tired, I’m so glad to hear that dog found a new home!
I also completely agree with Laurel. If this guy is serious about his recovery from Massive Narcissism, he needs to stop talking about his damn self and start doing things for others. I would probably tell him I’d be happy to sit down with him, but only after he starts volunteering regularly at a shelter, or whatever.
Like Halo, I found this letter quite resonant – I’ve got a ‘friend’ who sounds very much like “Mark”, and the fact that we’re not currently speaking has been kind of a relief, honestly. I almost found myself reaching out again (via a social networking site – we have mutual friends), but reading this letter and the responses has convinced me that it would really be counterproductive to do so. Thanks, y’all!
“LW here; thanks for all the thoughts and advice. It’s nice to know it isn’t crazy to feel so torn.”
Actually it makes you quite sane. Not to mention it shows you care.
“Of course, I shamelessly pandered to the audience by including the detail about the dog-abandoning (if anyone is worried, she was in fact adopted again, but it took a while).”
That kind of behavior with an animal is indicative of major personality issues. It’s good news that she’s okay, though! (I have hostility issues… I kind of want to choke people who give up animals without a good reason. Don’t freakin’ take ’em in the first place!!!!)
Whatever you decide, I hope you don’t allow him to manipulate you. You owe him no apologies and if you do meet with him you’re giving of YOURSELF and YOUR time, and that’s a gift from you whether he appreciates it or not!
@Krissa: I agree with you about this letter! So well explained, and evidence of a lot of reflection on So Very Tired’s part, along with a genuine desire to understand what, if anything, is right to do in this situation.
And just to speak a bit to the concept of “amends” – I am not in AA, but spent many years in ACOA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) groups and with friends who were well along in their recovery process via 12-step programs. My take on making amends is that it is NOT designed to make the recovering addict feel better, or obtain a clear conscience, but to be a process through which they acknowledge the wrongs they have done and face the consequences of their actions while consumed by their addiction.
So (as others have said a bit differently), if an addict’s behavior so damaged your relationship that to even hear an apology is not acceptable/beneficial to you, that is a perfectly legitimate consequence of the addict’s previous behavior while in the throes of his or her addiction. That consequence is something they should be facing head-on. Sometimes, there is no way to “make up” directly for the bad things you’ve done, and you must acknowledge that and use that as motivation to never do those things again.
@So Very Tired, I eventually stopped attending ACOA meetings when the majority of other attendees used the meetings to reinforce their suffering and damage, instead of learning new coping strategies and gaining insight into how they could change and grow away from the dysfunction that had been their lives with an addict…so I can definitely relate to the ‘addicted-to-recovery’ phenomenon you describe here. The phrase that comes to mind is ‘Dry Drunk’ – meaning someone who got sober but is still doing everything they did while using to damage their own and others’ lives. A must to avoid, as far I am concerned.
I agree with everyone: don’t go. Even if there weren’t the issue of an abandoned shelter dog (which: OMG, what a horrible horrible person), just tell him that you appreciate the gesture, but that you don’t want amends to be made, either in person or in a letter. You wish him the best. [full stop]
I will go against the grain here, and say that Mark giving the dog back back to shelter was almost certainly better for the dog than keeping her and being an inadequate and neglectful pet owner. There is every chance that she has a better home now, with an owner who actually wants her. His original misdeed was adopting her in the first place. Mark should still make amends to her by way of a hefty donation of time or money to the shelter.
My ex-husband went through AA and wanted to make amends to me. I agreed only because I thought it would help me let go of some of the anger I still had. I forgave him because it was good for me – I didn’t really care how it affected him.
Not only would I not go, but I wouldn’t even respond to such an inquiry. You’re done and you’ve made peace with that. End of story.
Of course, you did respond and now he tells you it’s Step 8 (or 9 or whatever) and I still wouldn’t go. And I would not respond to the second email. I appreciate that the steps can/are valuable for those in recovery who sincerely work them, but I don’t want to have anything to do with an “apology” that is motivated by achieving Step 8 (or 9). The hurtfulness fades, but the hurtfulness wasn’t my fault to begin with and I am not willing to open the door on that hurtfulness again just because someone in recovery wants to or has decided he is now “ready to” open that door.
I know this sounds harsh and I am not entirely unsympathetic to the disease of addiction, and I do believe in second chances, but this particular situation sounds far too much like a “I must achieve this step in order to ‘work’ my recovery” and less like how a truly sorry (and non-self-absorbed) person should act.
Disclaimer: I’m in a 12-Step program myself.
I submit for consideration: He may well see your lack of and/or negative response as the best of both worlds. He’s made his demonstration that he’s willing to make amends, and may see not having to actually *make* the amends as getting off easy. So, win-win from his perspective.
Does “make amends” mean “say you’re sorry” or does it mean, as it should, “make it right”? I mean, if someone got drunk and destroyed your sofa, “make amends” doesn’t mean “Hey, I’m an alcoholic, I shouldn’t have wrecked your sofa, but I’m in recovery, my bad. Forgiven? Cool! Next!”
Because you still had to shell out for a new sofa. “Make amends” means, “Hey, I’m an alcoholic, I shouldn’t have wrecked your sofa, and I’m really sorry. Let me buy you a replacement sofa, or reimburse you for the one you bought. Because you shouldn’t have to suffer for my failings.”
So, how do you make amends for what I’d call “wasting a friendship”? “I’m sorry my actions as an addict destroyed our friendship. I wish it could be different, but I know that I have shown that being my friend is not healthy for you. I’ll be well, I’m in recovery, but I understand why we can’t be friends. Best of luck to you. Before I go, do you have anything you need to get off your chest? I am willing to listen to anything you feel I need to hear.” And then listen.
Because, despite the “I need to focus on me” direction of many of these programs, the proper focus for the “make amends” step is THE OTHER PERSON. That other person has probably had years of pent-up anger toward you, and it needs to be released. If they NEED to scream at you, or call you names, well, that’s what THEY need, and THAT’s what “make amends” is about. Make it right FOR THEM.
So… bottom line, go. But ask him, directly, if he’s truly trying to recover from his addictions and is truly trying to make amends, what will he do to make things right? Because saying “I’m sorry” isn’t enough.
If he’s not willing (or if there truly is nothing), then cut your losses and walk away, without a second thought.
But if he is willing, and there is a way, then you both win.