The Vine: June 14, 2007
Dear Mr. and Mrs. James Bunting,
How does that feel?
I am writing a business letter (probably my second ever) for work, and have been instructed to put the header as follows:
Mr. and Mrs. Stephen Anonymous
1455 ______ Drive
Nowhere, NY 11666
In the salutation, I have been instructed to use the husband and wife’s first names:
“Dear Stephen and Underling,”
Is this still considered proper business etiquette? I would really hate a letter addressed like this, and would probably toss it upon seeing the envelope. Am I being overly sensitive or is this kind of weird? I am seeking the opinion of your sage counsel and the thoughts of your wise readers.
Would you do a poll asking if readers find being addressed as Mr. and Mrs. Husband’s-First-Name Husband’s-Last-Name to be offensive?
I would appreciate it greatly.
Sincerely,
Hyphenated and hypersensitive
Dear Ms. Hyphen-Hyper,
Well, that particular salutation feels weird to me because it means I’m married to my uncle, actually, but you had no way of knowing that.
Which is kind of what it boils down to, for me — that the only way you’d really know how I prefer to be addressed is if you ask me. I mean, let’s say I got married to Skyrockets. I don’t plan to change my name; you might know that because you read Tomato Nation and I’ve mentioned that before, but if I got a business letter addressed to both of us, rendered “Mr. and Mrs. Sky Rockets, 143 Above The Crappy Deli Ave., BK NY,” I’d be a little irritated.
But: 1) I’d be equally irritated by the presumed familiarity in the “Dear Sky and Sarah,” because that always bugs me, like in subscription-renewal letters — “Hey Sarah, it’s time to give us some money!” Yeah, not. When it’s check-writing time, how about “Ms. Bunting.” 2) Then I’d just assume that it’s a mass mailing, and that in a mass mailing, whoever’s in charge is looking for a blanket solution to addressing letters to married couples and doesn’t care to dick around with the etiquette on a case-by-case basis.
Contrast this, too, with my grandmother, who actually had a word with my father about telling me to address letters to her only as “Mrs. Grandpa’s-First-Name Bunting.” My grandfather’s name conferred status to her; she wanted it acknowledged. Different times, different strokes.
I’ll leave the comments open so the readers can weigh in, but the short form from me is: not offensive; reasonably irritating; not something I wouldn’t see the rationale behind; not something I’d lose sleep over.
Tags: Ask The Readers etiquette workplace
I’m not offended by it, but I find it antiquated and irritating in that circumstance. I also agree with Sars on the whole we’re-not-on-a-first-name-basis for the inside of the letter part.
I have the same problem as andipandi, though. My FAMILY refuses to acknowledge that I did not take my husband’s last name, nearly 4 years later. HIS mother offers to take me over to the DMV every Christmas holiday so I can “finally” get the paperwork taken care of. It really pisses me off to get mail for Mr. and Mrs. HisFirstName HisLastName, particularly from my family because they know how much it bothers me. It’s taken several years to get my mom to address things to Mrs. MyFirstName MyLastName-HisLastName… still wrong, but at least I’m not Mrs. HisFirstName.
My great-aunt, though? NEVER send her a letter that is not addressed to Mrs. Husband’s Name. NEVER. She will sometimes send them back, even though he passed away over 20 years ago.
I agree with Amy’s suggestion above.
A bit off topic, but I don’t find it NEARLY as offensive or annoying as a phone call asking for “Mr. or Mrs. LastNameFromThePhonebook.” In college there were 3 single gals living at that address and we loved to give the poor telemarketers hell for their companies’ refusal to acknowledge that single women are relavant persons too.
As apparently the only woman in the UK who kept my own name on getting married (I know this can’t be true but it feels like it!) I find this form of address old fashioned, annoying and sexist (just ask your other half how they’d feel about being addressed by your name and surname).
Having said that, I know it’s really difficult with business letters and as others have said, it depends to an extent on the generation of the customers. Although “Ms” is ugly and clumsy, it’s got to be a better solution for a woman you don’t know than being over-friendly or sexist/annoying.
I am a member of the National Trust in the UK, a long-established and somewhat stuffy heritage organisation. Despite the stuffiness, they have earned my undying gratitude by actually asking how I’d like to be addressed and then doing it. I wish more companies would take that approach. They even have a “two adults at the same address” membership with space for two different names, which neatly avoids the whole sticky issue of having to ask if their patrons are married or not.
Getting this right is not trivial for companies – it is really important because otherwise they’re annoying customers inadvertently every day.
If Hyphen-Hyper is writing a letter to known people (not a mass mailing), I’d recommend “Mr. and Mrs. Anon” or “Stephen and Underling Anon” on the envelope/address block, then “Dear Stephen and Underling” on the salutation. If it’s a mass mailing, “Mr. and Mrs. (or Ms.) Anon” for both the address block and the salutation (no first names at all) is the way to go.
I didn’t take his name, and he’s a foreigner who got married with no credit rating, so for years everything was in either my name or my name first, then his (the fights we had with the mortgage companies about this – the first time it was easy, and since then I’ve browbeat them into doing it this way as a matter of principle. They REALLY want to list the man first. Jerks.) Anyway, we’re constantly getting mail to Mr. and Mrs. MyMaidenName as a result, which makes it even easier to tell if it’s unsolicited.
I vote for:
Mr. and Mrs. Bunting
Someone once told me that the correct way to address something is to put Mrs. first, as in Mrs. and Mr. James Bunting. Therefore, it is only implying that “Mrs.” is married to Mr. James Bunting, not that they have the same name. Not perfect, as the woman is still not addressed directly, but maybe makes a little more sense??
I’m recently married, use my maiden name and my husband’s name, and don’t really give it much thought when people address us in the “traditional” way. It’s archaic, sure, but…being addressed as my husband’s wife doesn’t actually negate who I am. It’s…an address label. Why would I take that personally, regardless of who it’s from?
And Sars, my grandma’s with yours. My grandfather passed away in 1999, and she still got quite upset when my bro. addressed a wedding save the date to her in her name, rather than as Mrs. Mygrandfather, including the Sr. suffix, since my dad is Jr. and the afforementioned bro. is III. She’s 91 and rocks. If she wanted us to address her as Mrs. George Clooney, I’d do it with a smile.
Scratch that, it may have been a little different: Sarah and James Bunting, I think. (no Mrs. Or Mr.) Anyone ever hear of this?
SAMI!! My SEESTAH!! Finally someone with whom I can agree … another “Ms.” disliker! One of my very dearest friends — who KNOWS I loathe the honorific — insists on addressing envelopes to me as “Ms. Frogprof M.” when she knows good and well that (a) I’m not married, (b) I am SO not enough of a feminist to use that term, and (c) we’ve discussed this enough times that she really should know better. It drives me around the bend!!
I only use “Ms.” for a woman when I truly don’t know her marital status or know for sure that she absolutely won’t answer to anything BUT “Ms.” — but I think it’s a silly, made-up “honorific” for women who aren’t secure enough in their status — married or single — to use the age-old Mrs. or Miss. And yes, call me a Luddite [I admit it whole-heartedly!], but I feel as though using “Mrs.” only means you’re chattel if you WANT to be chattel, and “Miss” only indicates spinsterhood if you hate being single or are 95. I’m a “Miss” and damn proud of it — and apparently always will be. (Possibly approaching spinsterhood. I have cats.) [Sorry, Sars. :)]
I HATE getting letters in my ex-husband’s name, as in “Dear Mrs. Alvin Douchebag,” especially since I never took his name when we married in the 80s. AND I divorced that gambling, cheating bum 11 years ago. I am remarried and Mr. Vince LovelyBody just thinks it’s funny, but it steams me. On the other hand, I can usually tell what kind of current trouble Mr. Douchebag has gotten into and who might be on the lookout for him just from the return address. That’s good for a chuckle, usually.
I would be irritated by being addressed “Mrs. John Doe” but that is all. Mrs. means “wife of” so using it with the man’s full name is not incorrect, it is just old-fashioned. Using the woman’s first name and married name with Mrs. (Mrs. Jane Doe) can be seen as being incorrect due to the fact that Jane cannot be her own wife. BUT, using Mrs. with the woman’s first name became normal for divorcees who didn’t go back to using their maiden names in the past. So, an argument could be made that the definition of Mrs. has been changed over time to just “married woman address” and that using Mrs. Jane Doe is best for women younger than 50 or so who took their husband’s name.
The idea that a widow who has used the Mrs. John Doe form as her name for all of her married life is required to change it upon her husband’s death is very wrong. It essentially divorces her from her dead husband. At best it is thoughtless, at worst it is downright cruel. “So sorry about John, dear, now let’s take away another little part of your life too!” If she wants to start going by Mrs. Jane Doe she can of course but she does not have to. Anyone who tells a little old lady widow that she can’t keep using her husband’s whole name deserves to be beaten with her walker.
I like the Mr. and Mrs. Lastname option.
I’m married and I took my husband’s last name. Various grandparents and other older relatives have sent things to me with the Mrs. Dude Lastname. The first time it happened, I was inclined to be a little irritated. But when I thought about it, I realized (as I think another commenter mentioned) that in their eyes, they were honoring me for having taken the huge step of joining another familiy. Not that I *left* my family, or my identity, of course. But to our grandparents (and incidentally to some of my generation too, including me) marriage is a whole mysterious “man and woman becoming one flesh” thing. I and my husband still have our own separate identities, but we are also, in an inexplicable way, one entity. So it doesn’t bother me when someone who grew up in a society that, for all its problems, was blissfully free of the excessive p.c. we often see today, decides to honor the commitment between my husband and myself.
If I hadn’t taken my husband’s last name I think it would bug me a lot more, though.
I see what Liz Canfield means about setting aside personal ideas/feelings and adopting a business standard. But I think it is foolish to ignore the feelings of the target audience — what is appropriate for most of your addressees is vastly more important than an outmoded standard developed circa 1930.
If most of your audience is of an older generation (say older than 70), then perhaps the old standard is the way to go. Otherwise, it is best to be respectful of the recipients and current social climate — which, judging from the other comments, is contrary to what might be considered “proper.”
In other words, this is a case where it might be bad business to stick with outdated business etiquette. I think the easiest solution is Mr. and Mrs. Lastname, or if there’s any question at all, A. Lastname and B. Lastname. (I say this because there are plenty of gender-neutral first names out there, and many businesses get it wrong in that department too.) Initials are not overly familiar and still avoid the whole Mr./Mrs/Ms./Dr. conundrum.
My Mom (now 80) always said that “Mrs. Sarah Bunting” rather than “Mrs. James Bunting” meant that Sarah was divorced. Shocking! She would have been horribly insulted to have been addressed by the former rather than the latter.
But how many 80-year-olds are you addressing in your business? Times have changed. It’s up to you to figure out how much they’ve changed, and what group are you in more danger of offending.
Although I am not 80 (yet), I kind of like the traditional, for this reason only: it gives you a one-size-fits-all consistency, so that you don’t have to agonize over each individual situation. I’m not married and I don’t have to address this in my own life, but I do wrestle with this every time I send something to married friends. How do I write it out on an envelope when the wife has taken a hyphenate, without running out of room for the address? (E.g. Mr. and Mrs. A. B. and C. D.-B.)
I admit to finding it really tiring that people really care about this. I don’t really care how people address my mail, as long as strangers don’t address me by my first name, which I do think is rude. I honestly don’t spend that much time analyzing the envelope.
So, if your business has certain standards, I’d say just use them. It’s the content that counts, anyway.
People should stop being so touchy.
being someone whose last name is butchered on a regular basis, and whose first name is generic enough that poeple frequently decide I’m male *or* female… seems a whole lot of irritation and “up with feminism!” goin’ on here for something that is a “meh” for me. So some stranger screws up your name. Why waste energy on fretting about it? Toss it and don’t do business with them.
I can remember my mother, in the early 70’s, being incredibly frustrated with VISA. She kept trying and trying and trying to get a credit card in HER name, not Mrs HisFN HisLN. The different iterations of “her” name on the cards they kept sending soon became qute the family joke – they even sent one attempt that was “Miss HerMiddleName HerMaidenName”, which made us all tease them that the marriage had been annulled, and we didn’t exist any longer! Jokes on us, tho, as Dad then said that meant he didn’t have to buy us food and clothing any more. Har har.
After almost a year of struggle, they *FINALLY* sent her the card as she requested: Mrs HerFirstName HerFamilyName His FamilyName. And she had a note from some high-up muckity muck, saying he supported the feminist movement and hoped that they had finally gotten her name on her card correct, and that he hoped her battle was successful elsewhere.
Mom said to me “Feminist movement? What feminist movement?! What battle?? I just wanted to be able to more easily figure out who bought what on the credit card bill!”
Interestingly I now keep thinking of the Miss/Ms/Mrs debate instead of the actual topic at hand.
I’m 26, financially independent of my family and living in a country other than the one I grew up in having moved here on my own.
I’m a Miss. By choice and convention.
I’m not married and taken his name so I’m not a Mrs.
I’m not divorced and reverting to my maiden name, I’m not married and using my maiden name, I’m not entitled to use a surname other than the one I was born with so I’m not a Ms.
One of my best teachers at school was a Miss. She retired unmarried. She could have used Ms but it wouldn’t have made any difference to the way she ran her classes or her ability to impart knowledge. It didn’t matter. She was a very good teacher regardless of her name.
I know a lot of people use Ms as “my marital status doesn’t define me”. I believe that too. It’s not relevant to the discussion so why should it matter what my honorifics title is. My marital status is not relevant to the job I do or who I am so I’m not going to obscure it. Why bother? It doesn’t matter. I’m not ashamed of being unmarried, when/if I marry I won’t be ashamed of being married.
I am the foreigner in our relationship with the lack of credit rating. All our bills are in both names. Half have me first, half him. Some have two name lines. Some have one line and one of our names is cut off. I think it very much depends on the company. Perhaps the country I’m in the UK.
I work in the faculty development department of a university, and we once got a mass email about an education conference addressed to “Dear Sirs.” It really bugged me that anyone would still think that was an acceptable default heading — especially someone who works in the education sector, which isn’t exactly dominated by men.
I actually am not that annoyed by being addressed by my first name in a solicitation letter, but that’s because my first name was once a boy’s name and so I often get things addressed to “Mr. Whitney X” (including most of those charities that send the complimentary address labels, which just makes them useless). If you can’t guess right, I’d rather you not guess at all. (Which, I guess means I’d rather see “Steven and Underling Anonymous” on the envelope, though “Mr. Steven and Mrs. Underling Anonymous” wouldn’t bother me too much, since they are known to be married.)
Mr. and Mrs. Roger Jones. Let’s think about that. The logic behind that kind of salutation stems from a time when the Mrs. stood BEHIND her man. She was expected to wear a clean house dress and have impecable finger waves in her hair no matter if she were cleaning the toilet or entertaining her husband’s boss. It’s time that we change the convention to match the reality. Very few of us ladies stand BEHIND anyone anymore. Our mother’s generation made sure of that. It’s time to respect all the work they put into allowing us to be the Doctors, CEOs, and inventors. Thanks Mom!
I don’t have a problem with Mr. and Mrs. Hisname Lastname – although I’d definitely have an issue with being addressed as Mrs. Hisname Lastname. I must say, though, that I would get a huge kick out of getting a letter addressed to Mrs. and Mr. Hisname Lastname, but I’m funny that way.
…and now I have to address the Miss/Ms. debate. I used Miss beginning when I was 13ish. I’m 20 now, and prefer Ms. because it feels both older and more professional. But who knows? Maybe if I hadn’t started with Miss at such an early age I’d feel differently.
My mother and both my grandmothers will/would have ripped a strip off of anyone who didn’t address them by their names. And with the possible exception of my paternal grandfather, their husbands would have been one step behind to tear the second strip off (and Dad is/Grandpa was “socially conservative”, to put it mildly).
I’m not married; I intend to keep my name when I do but I expect socially I’ll be Mrs. Lizbet Husband’sLastName. I’ll accept that “Dear Mr. Joe Blow and Ms. Lizbet Smizbet” is a bit long for a form letter. But, “Dear Mr. and Mrs. Joe Blow” is going to make me see red. No part of my name is in there, and you’re expecting me to answer… why?
Whitney wrote “we once got a mass email about an education conference addressed to “Dear Sirs.” It really bugged me that anyone would still think that was an acceptable default heading —especially someone who works in the education sector, which isn’t exactly dominated by men.”
A professor in an executive MBA program that I attended wrote a letter of recommendation for an alumna graduate fellowship given by my undergrad Alma Mater. The school is one of the Ivy League women’s colleges that STILL doesn’t admit men. He addressed the letter “Dear Sir.” I didn’t get the fellowship, probably for other reasons, but I’ve always wondered…
So context is always important, and sometimes more important than at other times.
For me, it’s all about context. When we get a Christmas card from my grandparents addressed to “Mr. and Mrs. Husband Lastname,” I’m not annoyed, because they’re in their 90s. But business correspondence? Absolutely not. I don’t find it offensive, per se, but it bugs.
It’s old fashioned and proper etiquette – not offensive at all. Times they are a changin’ but this is still the most formal of salutations, and I personally like it.
I didn’t take my husband’s last name when we got married, but when we get mail addressed to “Mr & Mrs Hislastname”, that’s fine. Mildly annoying, but we wouldn’t throw the letter out based just on that.
“Mr & Mrs Hisfirstname Hislastname”? In the trash it goes. If it was, say, an obvious wedding invitation, we’d probably open it, though. (Not that this has ever happened; anyone likely to invite us to a wedding knows better. We did get one invite addressed to “Laura Mylastname & Hubby”, which was pretty funny.)
Every once in a while, I’ll get mail addressed to “Dr. and Mrs. myname” or “Dr. and Mrs. Laura myname,” which I find to be hysterical. My boyfriend, however, does not like being called “Mrs. Laura myname.”
Of course, if we ever got married and got mail addressed to “Dr. and Mrs. Ryan hisname?” Not so much.
Before I got married, my fiancee and I got a joint bank account with both our names on it. I didn’t change my name, so we kept it the account the same after the wedding.
Well, a few months later, I got a wedding gift from my grandmother – a check addressed to Mrs. HusbandsFirst HusbandsLast. The bank wouldn’t take it! They said it didn’t match my name on the account. Finally I convinced a clerk that it was a typo – should have been MR HusbandsFirst HusbandsLast – and they accepted the deposit into the joint account.
Sheesh.
With regard to Ms./Miss, my best friend has never married. She does not like for people to write her name as “Ms. M,” preferring to be “Miss M.” I was once married, but am no longer, so I, being neither “Miss L” nor “Mrs. F” prefer “Ms. L” I’ve pointed out to her that if we were French, since we are “d’une certain âge,” we’d both be called “Madame.”
I used my husband’s surname when I was married, but dropped it when we divorced. My son never cared that he and I had different last names. When his friends, not knowing my name, would call me “Mrs. F,” I’d thank them for being polite and correct them. (I will be getting married again, but not using my sweetie’s surname. Even if I wanted to, he won’t hear of it.)
I took my husband’s last name, and “Mr. and Mrs. Greg Dunn” doesn’t bother me much–a little irksome, but not too bad. What really gets me is “Mrs. Gregory Dunn” (it’s for me, not him, and I have a name! Grandma, I’m talking to you). The worst of all was the envelope addressed to “Mr. Gregory Dunn and Family,” because I was unaware that in the grand scheme of things, I rank as high as a two-year-old and a pair of lazy dogs.
My personal sense about the “Mr & Mrs HFN HLN” written address thing is that while it may be traditional, it’s outdated, socially passe, and practically hoary. Any of you married women want to be called “Goodwife”? It’s a traditional form of address, too….no, thought not. So should it still be appropriate for people to essentially label a woman an appendage of her husband’s identity and control in the same way that “Goodwife” does, just because it’s traditional?
I guarantee you that should I ever get married, I will never accept Mrs. HFN HLN directed to me in any way. I would tolerate Hrs. Kimberley HLN, as a) I had no clue about the divorcee label (thought it was widows, too – my grandmother is Mrs. Hername HLN), and b) given current statistics, I don’t see divorce as a desocializing stigma. I think I would actually prefer Kimberley MyLastname-HLN, as I’ve had my last name for 38 years now & most people would not know me if they heard any other name.
I do agree with others out there that being addressed by my first name in a business or solicitation letter is entirely rude, and full justification for binning the letter. Of course, I’m one of those people who still refers to each of her mother’s friends, or her friends’ mothers, as M[r]s. Whozitz as it would feel utter bizarre to call them by their first names; I was brought up to address women of my mother’s generation as Mrs. or Ms and I’ve been doing it too long to kill the habit.
I’m not married, don’t care whether people call Miss or Ms (though do prefer Ms) and hang up on those who automatically say Mrs. as if I must be married. I also get a nasty chill when people call me Madame or Ma’am – I feel it belongs to someone else, much older & wearing a large flowered or befeathered hat.
Question for anyone in Quebec – is it true that women legally cannot take their husbands’ names when they marry?
This makes me wonder what will happen when I (a woman) marry another woman. Yeah, gay. What then? Mrs’s? Mrs. and Mrs. Her1 & Her 2 1stLN-2ndLN? Interesting conundrum.
Man, this whole thread is causing one of my smug-gay moments.
I don’t really get the aversion that some people have to Ms. I believe them when they say they hate it, but it doesn’t seem unpleasant looking or offensive to me. It’s short and makes no assumptions (besides feminity). Or at least that’s how I read it.
On another historical note, I read someplace that Mrs. was originally an abbreviation for Mistress. (Not the piece-on-the-side version, but the female master.) Thus, women of the period would have been confused to get mail addressed to Mrs. George Washington, because Mistress George would just be bizarre. The times, how they change.
Finally, just the other day, I was mailing a package to a little boy I know. Since I often address mail to his sister as “Miss Polly LittleGirl”, I was trying to decide if I could get away with addressing him as “Master Tommy LittleBoy”. Mister seemed awfully adult as a form of address for an 8 year old. Leaving off the title seemed a bit inappropriate since I give it to his sister. Master seemed absurdly old-fashioned. I finally went with Mister and just assumed he and his folks will have a good laugh at my manners.
My dad was once getting ready to send in a donation as “Wife and Husband Lastname.” My mom saw it and had him change it to “Mr. and Mrs. Husband Lastname,” since a list of donors was going to be displayed somewhere, and that sounded more “proper” to her. I think of it as a Grandma Bunting generation kind of thing, too; outdated but still sometimes charming in an old fashioned way. My grandma was “Mrs. Joseph C.” until the day she died…31 years after her husband.
What really pisses me off is when my dad gets mail from the Susan G. Komen Foundation addressed to my mom. She died of breast cancer five years ago, and people made memorial donations to your foundation *in her name* so get her the hell off your mailing list already.
It’s worth noting that, for a long, long time, “Mr. and Mrs. John Smith” was the ONLY appropriate form of address for a letter to a married couple who shared a last name, and that “Mr. and Mrs. Smith” would have been flat-out wrong and off-puttingly curt. “John and Mary Smith,” with no honorifics at all: insultingly improper, completely inappropriate for correspondence.
I kept my name, so I don’t have to deal with this, granted (except from older relatives, whom I love and who get a pass from me on those grounds)… but seriously, no one is trying to insult you by addressing a letter to you. They’re following the form that was the only established one before the whole system melted down and no one could agree on what a proper form would be. If we don’t like being addressed in a given way, I think the answer is to tell the sender that, and THEN we can go ahead and get insulted if they ignore our express wishes. Just…maybe we can each do our best and recognize that everyone else is doing their best too?
For the record, with my wedding invitations I used “HerFirst & HisFirst HisLast” throughout when referring to couples, from the listing of our parents’ names on the invite itself to our thank-you notes (I did take his surname) to addressing the envelopes, except where I knew my cousin’s wife has kept her surname. Small family wedding, and no one on either side who’s a member of the etiquette police.
I did it that way partly because one of the people at the shop or one of the books, I forget which, said something about not separating the man from his last name, but mostly because it just looked the smoothest to me, and that putting the women’s names first at least somewhat balanced all the men’s surnames. I did know for sure that however much the reference materials told me “Mr & Mrs HisFirst HisLast” that I did not want to do it THAT way.
cayenne
According the Quebec Justice website:
http://www.justice.gouv.qc.ca/english/publications/generale/maria-a.htm#names
“Both spouses keep their birth names after marriage and continue to exercise their civil rights under that name, i.e. they must use their birth name in contracts, on credit cards, on their driver’s license, etc.”
But can freely use their married name socially.
In Ontario if you want to assume your husbands last name on legal documents, you must get it legally changed. I think the rest of the provinces are “tick here to change to your married name if you like”
For the letter? Mrs and Mr LastName doesn’t offend me. I’m not defined as a person by the address on a letter.
I like to use “Miss,” and what I hate is when given the choice of an honorific (e.g., when registering on a website), Ms./Mr. are the only options. I’ve seen that a few times.
Amen to that, Inkgirl. Honestly, I’ve never understood why one must use the Mr and Mrs thing at all. Avoid the whole issue and just address the envelope to Bob and Jane Smith, or Bob Smith and Jane Doe. I’ve never understood why people would find that offensive, when it’s THEIR NAMES. The whole formal address/invitation thing strikes me as dated and silly. Why must wedding invites and business correspondence still adhere to rules from the 19th century? Give me a break.
I didn’t change my name when I got married and was a little appalled that we received some checks made to Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirst Hislast, from people our age, no less. It would never occur to me to make out a check to a newly married couple in that manner without first asking if the bride was in fact changing her name, and even then I would probably address it to both of them.
If it’s a mass mailing, get over it. Have you ever had to send out bulk mail? Believe me, no one is going to go through line by line and figure out your preferences. There’s a formula that pulls the names and puts them on the envelopes automatically, one-size-fits-all. And ever shall it be.
I actually did change my name when I got married, for reasons of my own, but I went by my middle name for 16 years before that and I’m not sure I ever got a single piece of mail in my life other than birthday cards that was addressed to the right name. Was I mad? No. How could institutions be expected to know something like that? It’s MAIL.
That said, when I write individual business letters, I try to use the “safest” naming convention possible, i.e. “Ms. Bunting”. It’s all you can do.
Why not Mr. and Mrs. Sarah Bunting if one wants to avoid useless “and”-ing in business correspondence? Oh right, no man would ever put up with that, so I don’t know why I should be expected to.
Re: Mrs, Miss, Ms: I use Ms as my title, and it’s not because I’m remotely insecure with my partnership situation: it’s a conscious choice I made to acknowledge and perpetuate the fact that marriage is no longer the defining issue of a woman’s social status and identity.
Yup, nowadays we are actually allowed to own property after marriage, work, even have our own bank accounts – in fact, we’re almost like real people!
This was not the case back when Mrs/Miss were prevalent, and for that reason alone, they belong in the dustbin.
Men, after all, have never changed their titles on marriage, so if it’s such a loving respectful gesture, speaking only of commitment and affection, I wonder why that hasn’t been the case?
How about being buried as “Mrs. So-and-so”? Here’s an example: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSlh=1&GRid=19909456&
In regards to addressing mass mailings, I agree that no one knows what your personal preferences are.
However, it always raises my blood pressure when this kind of conversation comes up. Invariably someone will become amused at the thought of “Mr. Wifefirstname Wifelastname.” Yet, women do the reverse every day without blinking an eye.
Why exactly is it so funny to do the opposite, if the couple is TRULY merging together “as one”? It shouldn’t make any difference.
OOOOHHHHH, but does it ever! I consider that dichotomy totally unfair and insulting. If that makes me overly PC, so be it. I don’t like things that are unfair.
To be honest, I am astonished that we are still perpetuating a practice left over from when women were considered their husbands’ properties. It leaves me Speechless.
BetsyD, you said what I was saying more succinctly. Just reverse the standard, and the men of the world would have a shit-fit. Double-standards don’t have to stay that way… This is our revolution, although it’s slow-going.
From an etiquitte standpoint, it should be Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirst Hislast for any business or formal correspondence. Period. Everything else is considered to be overly familiar and therefore inappropriate from a business or formal writing standpoint. But you knew that.
Now, I grant times have changed, and when I was married, I kept my own damn name, thankyouverymuch, as I am a full-fledged human all by myownself and my husband took *my* name (which was reiterated repeatedly and often LOUDLY to family members who knew better and participated in the sexual revolution but persisted in Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirst Hislast on all correspondence) (also, completely unrelated, but who the hell fledges humans? Why is this an expression we use?). I wear the mantle of feminist proudly and woe betide anyone who tries to tell me I am on any other sort of standing than equal. Period.
That said, if I get mail from any institution and it was addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Lastname [first name ommitted], I’d presume they are poorly versed in business writing and bin it immediately, just as I would do if I read an ad touting “it’s benefits.” It’s sloppy, it’s poor form, and it indicates an unwillingness to do appropriate proofing to my mind.
Sure, it sucks and is a throwback to marking us as little better than chattel. But, hai, ppl who typ liek th1s tx gramer is dum and wei nos thei r st00p1d.
This is somewhat unrelated to the whole “Mr and Mrs” debate, but related to the undertaking of a husband’s identity as one’s own… more than that, it’s pretty much just useless trivia I felt like sharing.
In old-school Greek culture, sometimes the wife is referred to by a feminised version of the husband’s name. So my mother, whose name is Helen, would be referred to as “the woman of Spiro (my dad’s name)” aka “Spirina” in some villages when my parents were in Greece together. It’s basically implying that the woman so totally belongs to the man that her very name is a derivative of his.
Needless to say, she wasn’t impressed.
As a feminist AND a Miss Manners junkie, I’ve never really pitched a fit at any formal address. Granted, I took my husband’s name, but even if I didn’t, “Mrs” does technically mean “wife of,” so if some dumb institution is going to send me some dumb mailing, I’d rather be Ms Erin Hisname or Mrs Darren Hisname. Miss Erin Maidenname serves as little more than a sign that someone’s database, as mentioned above, is outdated. For a personal mailing I wouldn’t be bothered by just “Erin and Darren” and for an impersonal one “The Hisnames” (or, in other cases, “The Maiden/Hisname Household”) would probably be safe. Everybody’s starting to address things “Dear Firstname” anyway these days. Smarmy and cutesy, sure, but at least you won’t risk botching a gendered address.
What bugs me more than anything is that every way to address anybody formally — Dr, Mr, Ms, Mrs, Miss, Sir, Ma’am — seems to offend somebody royally. Consider the generation now reaching retirement, who respond to formal address as though it were some kind of insult.
When our grandparents write to us, the outer envelope is “Mr and Mrs Darren Hisname” and the card or letter is “Dear Erin and Darren.” I do the same when I write them.
My father cosigned on the loan for my house so I constantly get mail addressed to Mr. & Mrs. OurLastName or Mr. & Mrs. Dad OurLastName. Drives me nuts. I am certainly not married to my father.
I don’t have strong feelings about address labels, except in one case. I have a female friend who is an MD and married to a computer tech. They get tons of mail mistakenly addressed to “Dr. and Mrs. Computer Tech” — apparently some businesses can’t process the idea that the wife, not the husband, is the one with the advanced degree. That bugs her and it would bug me too.
What is the proper format in that case, anyway? Dr. and Mr. Computer Tech? Dr. Physician and Mr. Computer Tech? And if she’d married another physician or a guy with a PhD, how would that work? The Drs. Computer Tech?