The Vine: June 14, 2007
Dear Mr. and Mrs. James Bunting,
How does that feel?
I am writing a business letter (probably my second ever) for work, and have been instructed to put the header as follows:
Mr. and Mrs. Stephen Anonymous
1455 ______ Drive
Nowhere, NY 11666
In the salutation, I have been instructed to use the husband and wife’s first names:
“Dear Stephen and Underling,”
Is this still considered proper business etiquette? I would really hate a letter addressed like this, and would probably toss it upon seeing the envelope. Am I being overly sensitive or is this kind of weird? I am seeking the opinion of your sage counsel and the thoughts of your wise readers.
Would you do a poll asking if readers find being addressed as Mr. and Mrs. Husband’s-First-Name Husband’s-Last-Name to be offensive?
I would appreciate it greatly.
Sincerely,
Hyphenated and hypersensitive
Dear Ms. Hyphen-Hyper,
Well, that particular salutation feels weird to me because it means I’m married to my uncle, actually, but you had no way of knowing that.
Which is kind of what it boils down to, for me — that the only way you’d really know how I prefer to be addressed is if you ask me. I mean, let’s say I got married to Skyrockets. I don’t plan to change my name; you might know that because you read Tomato Nation and I’ve mentioned that before, but if I got a business letter addressed to both of us, rendered “Mr. and Mrs. Sky Rockets, 143 Above The Crappy Deli Ave., BK NY,” I’d be a little irritated.
But: 1) I’d be equally irritated by the presumed familiarity in the “Dear Sky and Sarah,” because that always bugs me, like in subscription-renewal letters — “Hey Sarah, it’s time to give us some money!” Yeah, not. When it’s check-writing time, how about “Ms. Bunting.” 2) Then I’d just assume that it’s a mass mailing, and that in a mass mailing, whoever’s in charge is looking for a blanket solution to addressing letters to married couples and doesn’t care to dick around with the etiquette on a case-by-case basis.
Contrast this, too, with my grandmother, who actually had a word with my father about telling me to address letters to her only as “Mrs. Grandpa’s-First-Name Bunting.” My grandfather’s name conferred status to her; she wanted it acknowledged. Different times, different strokes.
I’ll leave the comments open so the readers can weigh in, but the short form from me is: not offensive; reasonably irritating; not something I wouldn’t see the rationale behind; not something I’d lose sleep over.
Tags: Ask The Readers etiquette workplace
I’ll qualify this by saying I’m closer to the “militant feminist” side of the spectrum, BUT technically if they’re going to use the “Mrs” at all, my correct social title is Mrs. HFN HLN. I get most of my mail to Ms. Jennifer MLN because I do most things on my own, but I’m never annoyed by mail addressed to “Mr and Mrs HFN HLN” because it identifies us as the specific couple. Now, I agree it’s sexist to assume that we should be identified by Husband’s name, but I think the change needs to be at the fundamental naming convention level, like having an altogether new last name, or alternating generations with taking the woman’s name as the family name or something, rather than being mad about the symptom or effect of the outdated naming convention.
We have received mail addressed to Mrs. and Mrs. Jennifer MLN too, though and it didn’t bother Husband. Now, when the kindergarten calls him “Husband’s FN My Ex-husband’s LN” because they assume he’s my son’s father, that’s another story!
You’d think WordPress would be smart enough to save the comment I typed even as it complains at me about having forgotten my email address.
Again:
If I got mail addressed that way, and if that mail wanted my money, I’d likely decide that a woman who isn’t entitled to her own name isn’t entitled to a checkbook either. Sorry, no check will be forthcoming from Just A Girl over here.
Speaking as someone who often gets pointlessly angry that I’ll never be able to Google many of the girls I went to one of my four high schools with because so many will have changed their names and “disappeared,” I say that no first names or both first names is OK, but only his is gross.
I’m 30, just as a data point.
I couldn’t wait to take my husband’s nice short plain last name when we got married, because my maiden name was a colossal pain in the ass. It was eight letters long, and although it was actually pronounced exactly the way it was spelled, and not too complicated at that, it inexplicably seemed to confound the shit out of everyone. My mother was horrified at my supposed self-subjugation – when she got married in 1969, her name got changed automatically even though she never wanted it, and she deliberately changed back to her maiden name in the late ’80s – but I didn’t care. I was done with it. As a result, I don’t really care much how I’m addressed with my husband’s name… I’m just happy it’s not still my PITA maiden name. I supposed I’m not really thrilled in principle with the Mr. and Mrs. HisFirst HisLast way of doing things, but I’m not inclined to take it personally.
We’re still listed in the public phone book under my maiden name, though – it’s a very useful telemarketer-weeding device. Anyone who calls and asks for either Mr. or Mrs. PITAMaidenName (and they all invariably butcher the pronunciation along the way, further proving that they don’t know us) is simply told that there’s nobody there by that name. And there isn’t. Buh-bye.
I’d go with their names in the address block, and Mr. and Ms. in the greeting. That way the address block is correct and legal, the greeting is neutral without undue familiarity.
I don’t look to my mortgage company for a lot of good advice on anything, but this is what they do to correspond with my spouse and myself considered as a team.
As opposed, to say, the Massachusetts Department of Revenue, who after twelve years of married filing jointly, has yet to discern that my wife kept her last name. Even the Federal Government has figured it out by now.
Well, the best case would be to actually take the time to find out how your customers want to be addressed and note that in your files. However, if you don’t know and can’t find out, “Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirstname Hislastname” is completely proper.
You would NOT then use their first names in the salutation, though. You’d use “Dear Mr. and Mrs. Hislastname.” If you were familiar enough to use their first names, then you’d be familiar enough to know that they actually prefer to be addressed as “Herfirstname Herlastname and Hisfirstname Hislastname.” (Another bit of etiquette trivia: when addressing a letter to two people in this format, her name goes first. Etiquette does not promote men above women; in fact, it’s quite the opposite in most cases.)
On the other end, if you get a letter from a company that’s addressed using a format you don’t like, just contact them and politely ask them to change it in their records. It’s hard enough to get people to behave politely; I find it ridiculous to get offended when someone makes an effort to be polite but misses the mark. I don’t get pissed off at people who misspell or mispronounce my somewhat unusual name — I either ignore it (for passing contacts) or gently correct them.
I forgot to add: save your annoyance for people who know how you want to be addressed and ignore your wishes. That’s actual rudeness. (Not that you can really do much about it if you correct them politely and they still refuse to listen.)
I think if someone wants to be known as “Mrs. Joe Smith” then you have to respect their preference. My grandfather died about 30 years ago, and until my grandmother followed him 25 years later, she was always known as “Mrs. Ike ____.” Mail still came to her that way, she wrote her checks that way, etc. I asked her about it once, and she said she thought of it as a sign that she still remembered my grandfather. I wasn’t about to tell her that she was sacrificing her identity, even though that’s kind of what I privately thought.
For my own wedding in a few weeks, I’m changing my last name, but keeping my maiden name as a middle name. I want to take my fiance’s last name, but I like the idea of keeping a piece of my own identity, too.
For when a couple with the same last name but only the woman is a Dr. you should use Mr. and Dr. Last. You just put Dr. in where Mrs. was. That’s if she uses her professional title socially. Not everyone does. The Doctors Last works if they are both doctors. Although it does get tricky if one is not a medical doctor since traditionally only people with medical degrees of some kind were called Dr. socially and PhD.s were Dr.s professionally but Mr./Ms./Miss/Mrs. socially. That has changed somewhat and really depends on the person with the PhD and how secure they are. So, really we are back to asking the person how they want to be addressed.
I’ve worked at non-profits and charities for years, and most of them still INSIST that you address “formal” letters to Mr. and Mrs. John Smith. Apparently this is still the “proper” way to address a formal envelope. I despise it and we’ve had many fights about it. Our bosses make us do it (especially those of the older generation) unless a donor calls and requests otherwise.
If I can make a quick suggestion… those of you who receive mail addressed that way from charities and it bothers you? Please call them and tell them. If enough people running these places hear this, they may stop with the “Well, that’s just how it’s done” and recognize that it’s really old-fashioned and outdated.
great, now I’m going to have a raving complex about addressing my wedding invites. THANKS GUYS. heh.
I’m… a little surprised at the amount of irritation over this. Businesses that don’t know you well on a personal level will almost always get it wrong. I’ve gotten mail for Mrs. Myname Maiden name since I was twelve or so, and once my mom handed me a magazine, laughing, saying “I guess this is for you.” It was addressed to Mrs. Brother’sname Lastname. We were fifteen. Yeah.
to Hyphenated: I would simply ASK my boss or manager or whomever “instructed” you to write the letter in this way if this is the way the clients prefer to be addressed, or if it’s an assumption based on formal custom. If it’s not the client’s KNOWN preference, simply ask your manager if she/he’d mind if you change it to Mr. and Mrs. Lastname, as you feel that’s more modern according to feminist sensitivity. Or whatever. You don’t need to make a big deal about it, just calmly state why you are asking. If it’s company policy or the client’s preference to use the “old” formal way, then just do it and don’t worry about it. You can see from the comments that there’s going to be a range from nuclear explosion rage to totally unruffled feathers about the issue among the average citizens, so at this point it’s probably not your job to predict the response. Point it out to your boss, if the boss doesn’t care there’s nothing more you can do about it.
Just to provide a different perspective, I’m under 30 and I adore being addressed as Mrs. John Rufus. To me that doesn’t deny my identity as an individual, but rather it denies that strangers need to know or have the right to use my first name. Then again, if you don’t know me well enough to call me Sally, then you probably don’t know my marital status, so this doesn’t really come up. Most people do, and should, use Ms. Rufus.
But I don’t like the knee-jerk reaction that any woman who chooses a more old-fashioned form of address is necessarily anti-feminist and antiquated. Some of us feel we can have modern politics AND enjoy some old-school flourishes. Hell, I wish I could make everyone call me the Right Honorable Lady Rufus Fancypants the Magnificent.
By far the best non-profit solicitation I ever received was when I was in high school and nowhere near married. It was addressed to Sally and Stanley Maidenname. I never figured out who Stanley was, or why they assigned him to me!
Ooh, and this doesn’t even get into the fun of trying to determine, in business letters, who takes a “Dr.” in front of their name! Medical docs are easy; non-medical PhDs can be tricky. This was actually an issue at my last job, where the government financial auditors insisted on being called Dr. John Q. Auditor, PhD. Sadly, they could not seem to return the favor for any of the female scientists on staff.
Being gay also adds a fun twist to non-professional letters.
One day I hope to convince my credit card companies to stop calling me Mrs. G, as though I’m married to my dad.
What in the world do you people doodle when you’re in love, if not “Mrs. He’s Dreamy” and “Heidi Dreamy?”
I think I might have a helpful and interesting perspective on this…(which I don’t THINK has been mentioned yet, but I got interrupted in the middle of writing it so I imagine there’ve been a million more posts in the meantime)…
Now, I’m pretty hardcore about equality rights and asserting my independence, and not letting anyone tell me who I am blah blah blah…but for the most part i don’t let this sort of minor thing offend me,
I mean, if someone wants to give me a cheque of any amount that’s worth my while to cash, I won’t care in the SLIGHTEST how you address me.
Call me Miss, Ma’am, or Mrs Not-Even-Married-To-Boyfriend’s-Firstandlastname.
I’m so used to it at this point, since every time we go out we inevitably hear some variation on “And will you and your husband be paying for these [street-vendor hot dogs] together, or separately?” God forbid we check into a hotel….at this point it totally rolls off my back.
But when it comes to offering MY money or support, whether it’s a charitable donation or buying stuff at your store, it really makes a HUGE difference to me. If you want my money, it’s really really important to take the seconds to figure out what I want to be called, and do it, whether it’s Ms or Mrs Husband or frickin’ Princess Consuela Banana-Hammock.
Here’s the big issue- this isn’t about me being all fussbudgety or assertive or controlling…the issue of impersonality/mass mailout is annoying, but typically warrants little more annoyance than my name being misspelled (which happens more often than not)
Tthe real issue is that, when I see a company that chooses to go by a formality like that, which is FAR from the norm anymore, it *immediately* makes me consider that company/person in a context that would NEVER have occurred to me otherwise.
I’m far from the perfect conscious consumer- I like to shop at independent retailers, but i don’t investigate the politics behind every purchase i make, I don’t weigh my every purchase on an ethical scale- it just never occurs to me- UNTIL/UNLESS something brings it into question.
Sure, it annoys me that (while I haven’t seen a Sears catalogue in years) commercials for cleaning products still always show a woman all gleeful about her clean dishes while men shill the fun power tools, but I also understand the reality of market research and demographics and companies continuing to do what works (until the day where things change so much that it doesn’t).
That’s irritating, but if I want something that swiffs, I’ll get a swiffer (okay, or the cheap knockoff). If I want to bleach the coffee off my CLASH t-shirt without ruining the black fabric, I’ll get the clorox bleach pen. whatever.
I don’t do a background check on everything I buy, I don’t let those stereotypes rule my choices. it’s impossible.
But if it’s brought to my attention that a company has been involved in practices that I find unethical (child labor, union sabotage, etc), then yes, I do change my habits. And, in that way, when an organization chooses to address me in a way I find antiquated and oppressive, I can’t help but immediately wonder what other beliefs they endorse.
Is that “let’s help the children” charity actually promoting religious values or nuclear-family propaganda that I disagree with? Do the owners of that chain speak out at anti-choice rallies or donate money towards abstinence-only sex ed? Will this insurance company offer me the same coverage if my life partner turns out to be a woman? Or even as banal a response as “that effing irritates me, i’m going to not shop there out of a practically-childish spite!”
It’s not even a conscious thing- I think it became knee-jerk when I was in university and was constantly handed petitions by cheerful classmates saying “Are you in favour of lower tuition rates???!”” (as if anyone would answer “No, I like racking up debt!”), but NOT ONE OF THEM could tell me what would be cut because of it.
(I’ll give you a hint- it’s not inflated salaries or advertising budgets or the gala events they throw for rich donors….it’s the things like broadening cultural awareness and consciousness, accessibility services or career/health/mental-health counseling, or other special assistance students might need….
And I myself had a lot of need for, and got a lot of use out of those services- i might even say I wouldn’t have been able to complete my degree if not for them, so I know how necessary they are, and wouldn’t be at all eager to slice a fraction off tuition costs at their expense.)
Wow….that wasn’t supposed to be such an elaborate explanation (I’m sorry, Sars!)…
the point I’m trying to make is that being addressed in a way I don’t want to be addressed is such a tiny thing, but would make me really rethink any endorsement or association, without my even intending to do so.
Ms. Out Spoken
(definitely would not work for me to take on the boy’s identity- he’s Mr. Brevity Introvert.)
“But I don’t like the knee-jerk reaction that any woman who chooses a more old-fashioned form of address is necessarily anti-feminist and antiquated. Some of us feel we can have modern politics AND enjoy some old-school flourishes. Hell, I wish I could make everyone call me the Right Honorable Lady Rufus Fancypants the Magnificent.”
Point taken. I understand some can divorce the current practice of taking the husband’s name from the history of it. I am the quintessential Libra, and can see both sides of an argument usually. I can’t do that with this issue. I can’t imagine taking my hsband’s name. Why should I? Just because I’m “the girl”?
It seriously puzzles me when women have no problem with this practice. I hate my maiden name, but I didn’t change it because I felt very strongly about the statement it historically represented.
But I wouldn’t be a very good feminist if I didn’t acknowledge different women’s choices. It’s hard as hell when it comes to this issue, but I have to support every woman’s decision. So cheers to all, no matter waht side of the issue. Cheers to the RIGHT TO CHOOSE. ;)
“What in the world do you people doodle when you’re in love, if not “Mrs. He’s Dreamy” and “Heidi Dreamy?” ”
In my case, “Ms Rebel-Dreamy” ;)
When my wife and I got married seven years ago, she took my name and became known in formal situations as HerFirst HerLast MyLast, casually as HerNickname MyLast. Neither of us has a terrible problem with Mr. and Mrs. John MyLast (my mother, 64 and originally from Richmond, uses that on envelopes she sends to us), although my wife certainly wouldn’t go out of her way to be addressed that way. She does go by Mrs. MyLast instead of Ms. MyLast when offered a choice. I had no idea before reading this thread that Mrs. HerFirst MyLast was improper; good to know.
I would have considered changing my name to John HerLast MyLast when we got married, but I’m a III and very, very attached to my name. I would have had no problem at all with my wife keeping her old last name and made no recommendation on it, but she reasoned that it would be more convenient and nicely traditional. Also, she had already changed her last name at age 8 when her mother got married (for the first time; my wife resulted from an affair) and her new dad adopted her, so she wasn’t as attached to her last name as she might have been. If she had remained a bylined journalist through our marriage, she might have thought differently, but she changed careers shortly before we got married. (Furthering her ambitions, not diminishing them; she had gotten an MBA and wanted to put it to use, and now she makes quite a bit more than me. I always dislike seeing those “was until recently” lines in wedding announcements about the wife’s abandoned career–but hey, their choice.)
The biggest problem my wife had was with Social Security when she went in and said she wanted to have all four names officially–she never uses it all, but officially she’s HerFirst HerMiddle HerLast MyLast. It was quite a rigamarole getting that on her Social Security card.
My parents used to use this as a junk mail filtering device, and much hilarity always ensued from the permutations, like people asking for Mr. HerLast or Mrs. HisLast, or even Mrs. HerLast, since my mom is a doctor and should be Dr. HerLast (and my dad was professionally Dr. HisLast, so I always thought they should be addressed as Dr. HisLast and Dr. HerLast, myself, just because it would be cool that way). Nobody ever really got them right on the first try, and they never let it bug them except when it was family deliberately ignoring their preference. It’s really impossible to make everyone happy, let alone get it right. I’ve gotten lots of mail for Alex, plenty of mail for Mr. Alexis, and all sorts of mispellings. If I got something spelled right and with a semi-proper title, I doubt I would complain too much, though I would probably blink twice. Correcting the people who think I already live with my boyfriend (no, we only live in the same suburb!) is enough awkward social correction for me.
As for my parents, we were taught to politely answer “I’m sorry, she’s not available right now, may I take a message?” when asked for Mrs. HerLast, since some of my mom’s family insisted on calling her that. Sigh. Mr. HerLast got “Sorry, no one by that name lives here.”
My widowed grandmas always did the Mrs. HerFirst HisLast, so maybe my whole family is just bizarrely informal/progressive. I have a hard time imagining myself with any sort of title. What’s wrong with just my name? If I ever did get a PhD and went by Dr I’d feel people were talking to my dad, and Mrs. MyLast is my grandmother. When forced to take the option I generally choose Miss because it sounds the least bizarre to me.
anne:
I respect your respect of our decision :)
The people I have the most problem with are those who think they have any right to tell you WHAT YOUR NAME SHOULD BE. I don’t care what you want to be called: MaidenName, HisName, hyphenated, MaiHisDenName, something entirely new… hell, when my mom and her husband got married they both changed their last name to his mother’ maiden name. For reasons of their own. Which are the only reasons that should matter.
When I got married, my husband did not expect me to change my name. In fact, he repeatedly asked me if I was sure I wanted to, and made it very, very clear that he was 100% fine with me not doing it. Which I appreciated (and in fact may have made the opposite decision had he felt differently, ha!) but I insisted that I wanted to for three very simple reasons, in order of importance:
3. After years of the above-mentioned doodling, it just felt right
2. I liked his name better–my old one was cumbersome to the max
1. The main reason: I have always wanted to have the same name as my children, and for my husband to as well. I have always wanted that kind of family unity. Maybe it’s because I’m a child of multiple divorces, but I’ve always wanted to be that cute family The Soandsos. You know?
Absolutely personal reasons. I don’t project them on anyone else. But god save the person who thinks she has the right to judge me for my choices either. It’s MY name. Yes the convention is born of patriarchy, but I think we’re all smart enough here to move beyond that history and let it be what it is today. A name. My husband doesn’t own me, and knows it well. End of story, as far as I’m concerned.
You would not BELIEVE the comments I’ve gotten, though, both pro and con. Unreal! I don’t appreciate the “support” comments any more than the negative ones, by the way, because all of the above assume they know something about me and my choices that they don’t.
Oh, and by the way, the bureaucracy no longer makes any assumptions. It’s a NIGHTMARE to change your name. Whoever said their mom’s name was changed against her will…I wish I’d gotten married there! Good lord. The lines, the stamps, the repeated phone calls. It was a bigger challenge than the wedding planning! Granted, some of that was because I was (legally) changing my first name too, but not all.
I used to work for a charity and IME you can never get everyone 100% correct. You can follow grammatical rules and the current custom and tailor your salutations to your audience and hope for the best. I’ve even had one woman complain when I wrote to her as ‘Lady Ann Smith’, since she didn’t like using her title.
I am now an employer and I always refer to women as Ms in the legal documents unless they specifically want to be a ‘Mrs’ (or Dr, Rev etc of course).
Some companies ask for my title and only give ‘Mrs’ or ‘Miss’ as options. Even though I am unmarried I often tick ‘Mrs’ and in the past I’ve even ticked ‘Mr’. Fuck ’em.
I think it is interesting that women have Miss/Ms./Mrs., but men are Mr. regardless of their marital status.
I think that is the real issue here. And that is why is why many women get offended. I wouldn’t get all, “How DARE you!” if someone sent me a piece of mail with Miss CurlyGirl, however, it makes me feel/sound like I’m five, rather than an independent, successful, capable adult.