The Vine: October 12, 2011
Some time ago you ran a Vine question from someone wondering who’d written a speculative story about aliens who came to Earth and offered to completely fix all the U.S.’s problems in return for all its black people. The answer was Derrick Bell, a civil rights lawyer and law professor (the story was “The Space Traders”).
He just died, and from his Times obituary, he seems like a very interesting guy. I thought you might want to know.
W
Dear W,
Thanks for the follow-up!
*****
Dear Sars and any reader who knows things about how to actually get jobs:
A history of intense clinical depression means that instead of being a year out of college like I would have been otherwise, my past five years look like this: freshman year of college, year of Americorps program, sophomore year of college, almost a full semester of junior year of college up through November 2009, several months of fruitless job-hunting, a brief stint at the Census, and a second Americorps year.
For a LOT of reasons, I really, really, really do not want to go back to school yet (and also legitimately can’t right away), but my current “job” is ending in less than two months which means it’s job hunting time again. I had a friend show me how to put together a résumé (I was doing it super, super wrong) and coach me through the cover-letter-writing process, so I feel a little better in those regards (though if anyone wants to spontaneously share tips, I’m not turning them down).
My big question is the college issue. I don’t want to leave it out entirely, since a) that leaves me with a whole lot of blank time and b) it is a pretty elite institution, the kind that people take real notice of, and while I have no intention of returning I can’t say I don’t want to use any advantage I might have. On the résumé, my HR friend recommended putting the institution with the dates I attended (no BA candidate or anything like that), which seems legit. And as far as giving a reason for it, I have pretty much decided to leave it at “family circumstances forced me to withdraw.”
But do I preemptively mention it in a cover letter? Is it at all worth applying to jobs that require a BA if I think my experience has qualified me for them and if so, is that a cover-letter-mentioning thing (“While I was forced to leave undergrad, my experiences blah blah blah”)? Again, going back is not on my radar right now, so I’m happy to look for jobs that I could potentially see going longer-term, but if I’m interested in that, do I need to come up with some way of saying “even though I look like I’m taking ‘time off,’ I promise I won’t abandon you in eighteen months?” Alternately, does not looking like I care about finishing make me seem like a flake?
Basically: how do I tell potential employers that no, I don’t have a B.A., yes, I am planning on getting one eventually, but no, it won’t be soon enough that you need to doubt my commitment to you, and you should hire me anyway because my experiences have given me all the skills you are asking for?
And, bonus, quick question: how terrible is it to lie about your GPA on your résumé? Mine was like a 2.5 when I left; do people check that? (My instinct, alas, says yes.)
Thanks to anyone for really ANY advice at this point!
It’s Not Like I Was Going To Gain Any More Actual Practical Or Intellectual Skills In Two More Years Of Dicking Around About Faulkner
Dear But If You Want To Work At Faulkner Inc., You’d Better Not Shine Them On,
My first bit of advice: easy with the “dicking around” rhetoric. It’s fine among friends, and I agree with you up to a point, but for many employers, the point of the college degree isn’t the skill set or the knowledge base. It’s that you find a way to finish long, expensive projects, and given that not finishing is a source of concern for you, you maybe don’t want to shit on it. I’ve said many times that college isn’t for everyone, and in the current economic climate, you likely won’t need any explanation for stepping out for a few semesters anyway — but if you’re asked for one, “pfft” isn’t the one you want. I’m sure you know that, but just in case.
And that, along with most of your other questions, depends on what kind of job you’re applying for. It sounds to me like you want mostly jobs that require a bachelor’s, and this is where it may come down to opinion, because if I had asked for B.A.-holders only and you sent your c.v. anyway, I would round-file it — based on failure to follow directions. Again, for jobs I’ve hired for, a degree doesn’t make that much of a difference, but the degree itself isn’t the point; see above. The point is that you think you’re an exception…and whoever is in charge of hiring ain’t got time for exceptions.
So, I would save your powder for jobs you really really want, if that’s the case — and then I would just not mention that you didn’t finish your BA. If you want to sneak it past the HR assistant, just put the dates on the c.v. and don’t mention it in the cover letter explicitly. If you get to an interview, you can explain in more depth: you didn’t finish yet, because you’re focusing more on gathering experience right now, and you’re committed to doing that with the United Widget Co. but you’ll get back to Ivy.edu eventually.
This is what I would do. Our HR/hiring peeps might disagree…but without knowing what sector you’re applying in, it’s hard for me to say. Certain jobs just want someone with qualifications who will do the job cheap. Other fields have different priorities and really need a big-ticket degree. The key is not to annoy the first person who reads your file by not following directions — and not to draw attention to information you’d rather they not focus on by answering questions nobody asked.
And don’t lie about anything. Leaving information off is one thing; lying is another, and doing it about something they can check? Dumb. A 2.5 is a B, no? It’s not like you left because of academic difficulties. Put your school dates and GPA at the bottom of the c.v. and focus on selling your other quals in the letter.
Tags: Derrick Bell follow-ups popcult workplace
I agree with Sars — I am happy to hire people without BAs (and have done so) but not if they are super-defensive about it. That’s the red flag, not that you didn’t finish the degree.
If an employer presses you about finishing, a good answer is “I’m taking Saturday/online classes that are directly related to what I’d do for you” (e.g., if it’s a IT job, you’re taking certification classes; if it’s a marketing job, you’re taking business classes). Say, “My combination of formal education and real-world experience makes me a strong candidate for this role” (or whatever) and bring it back to what you’d do to be successful in the job.
And DO NOT LIE about your GPA. Just a bad idea all around. I’m happy to hire someone who is a C+ student, if they have other great qualities … but poor judgment is not a great quality.
As a recruiter, I would disagree with Sars a bit on this. Sometimes a BA is listed as required in a job posting for no good reason and candidates without one can be considered. Basically the worst that can happen is they reject you, but it shouldn’t stop you from applying if you want the job.
I’m coming from a Canadian perspective where school names and GPAs don’t mean much, but my advice would be if you don’t feel good about your GPA, leave it off. A resume is a marketing document, not a list of everything you’ve ever done. It allows you to draw attention to your strengths and reasons you’d be a great fit for the job/company while leaving out those less flattering aspects of your career and education.
That said, you should never lie. It can have dire consequences, especially if they don’t get around to verifying until after you’re in the job – which happens. And any gaps in your resume are open to questions about what the deal was so you should have truthful responses prepared that emphasize your strengths.
One resource I think could help you is the Ask a Manager blog. http://www.askamanager.org/category/resumes She has some great common-sense advice for job seekers about resumes and the whole recruiting process. The biggest takeaway is, unfortunately, there’s no magic formula for resumes. Recruiters are human and they all have different preferences and bugaboos that can make or break your chances. But if you want the job, it never hurts to give it a shot. The worst they can say is no.
Simplify, but don’t lie. College, Aug 06-Nov 09 under the Education section. It’s obvious you didn’t finish, you don’t list a degree, but you show you did some time. (If you can enroll in something BA-driven online right now, just one class you can do at night, list that, too, which shows your ongoing commitment to the education despite what I will assume is financial difficulties.) Then under job experience, the Americorps years & census, anything else you got.
We don’t want long timetables of info on resumes, and we don’t want a huge backstory on the cover letter. The cover letter says “I am perfect because XYZ, and want to work for you because ABC, let’s chat!” You put what’s relevant to this job / your career goals, and if it’s good enough, I’ll call you in to talk. Don’t worry, I’ve noticed the gaps in the years, but I’ve called you anyway, so at that point you can be honest but not dismissive/flippant/self-deprecatory, and focus on the job to be done and the great things you can bring to the company that will make them happy they’ve hired you.
Good luck!
As a former recruiter, I must tell you unequivocally DO NOT LIE ABOUT ANYTHING ON YOUR RESUME . Many major companies have a policy that if you fail a background check you will be banned for life from applying again. It especially pisses them off because it costs money to run those checks, and they don’t typically do it until AFTER they’ve made you an offer. Just include the name of the college, the dates you attended, and if you’re asked about your GPA (and pretty often they really don’t care), be honest.
I have sat through many job application, resume classes, et al. this year, including one done with an HR person last week. So I can say this:
These days, if they are asking for a requirement like that, they can get it from well, most of the applicants. If they want a BA and you don’t have it, they will pitch your application out. They want any excuse to throw out people when there are 500 folks applying for one temp job doing data entry. I honestly wouldn’t waste my time applying for anything where you are missing one of the requirements like that. These are not the days where they will hire someone who is a “stretch” and could do the job, but doesn’t have everything. They want someone who has done everything on their minimum qualifications list before– and they can probably find those people because everyone is unemployed. In the last year I haven’t gotten an interview (hell, I’ve been automatically rejected by the computer system!) when I was missing one thing, so “stretch” job applying is not working here.
Yeah, I know, I don’t really use my BA or BS at work either, but it’s proof that you can get through a long term project. Honestly, you don’t have that to show right now. I’m not judging, college isn’t for everyone necessarily, but applying for jobs that require a BA is not going to be your thing right now. Sorry.
Do people put GPA’s on résumés? It’s a question I’m prepared to answer in an interview, but I’ve never been asked. I always thought that just showing you can finish the damn degree was the main point of college, unless you’re applying to some hyper-competitive law firm, or something. (That said, I do include that I graduated with honors, so maybe I’m being a bit hypocritical.)
I do admit that I can see where including it in this case does at least show that you didn’t leave because you flunked out, without having to explicitly state as such.
I wouldn’t mention my GPA on my resume at all. I never have, and my GPAs were all quite good, from prestigious schools. I’ve been asked to provide transcripts from my institutions maybe twice, but that’s the only time it’s ever even tangentially come up. I have never been asked “What was your GPA?” in an interview, and I have never asked it of a candidate. So I would just leave it off, and if it comes up in interviews, address it then. Definitely don’t lie about something so easily verifiable.
I also wouldn’t draw attention to your shortcomings in the cover letter – that’s giving employers chances to dismiss you. Which they are looking for, frankly, because they have 600 resumes to sift through for every job posting. (Not having a BA isn’t a shortcoming in life in general, obviously, but for a job that specifically mentions one in the description, it is.) I would focus on pointing out specifically what makes you a good fit for the job – “I have X number of years of experience doing [A, B, and C tasks mentioned in the description].” If/when you get an interview and the interview mentions the dates of your college attendance, then simply say “Family circumstances forced me to withdraw” and leave it at that. Only answer questions you’re asked directly.
Also, the big perk of attending “elite institutions” is networking. Work that shit. I use the fuck out of my Ivy’s alumni resources, as well as my b-school’s, all the time, job-hunting or not. I know you’re not technically an alum, but see if you can use your school’s network to get face-to-face meetings with people – that way, they know you and your story a bit and might be able to vouch for you in hiring situations, or refer you to people they know who are hiring.
Ehhh…it really depends. I don’t think there is a hard and fast rule to this. I would apply to every job you think you may be able to do, and if you get round filed, well that’s gonna happen to a lot of your resumes regardless.
I’ve hired people without BAs who have done very very well. For an entry level position, I might list BA required, but really I’m looking for someone I can train to the job.
You might want to think about looking for a job at a college- they usually have tuition reimbursement, and if you mention that in your interview, it shows that if you get the job, you’ll stick around to finish your degree. That’s how we take it at my school.
* Given that you’re not going to be able to pass a lot of robotic filters, NETWORKING IS CRUCIAL. I used to hate the concept of networking — it seemed like getting an unfair advantage — but really, all it does for you is get you past the HR filter. Someone with whom you have an “in” can tell HR to flag you as a likely candidate, but they won’t ignore your qualifications just because you know a guy. So network! Friends who work at companies you’re interested in; relatives; former coworkers/bosses/professors; anyone. Networking is a good idea for anyone jobhunting, but it’s especially crucial for you.
* It’s fine to just omit your GPA from your resume. If they want it, they’ll ask. Toni: yes, people definitely put it on, especially if they have a good one and/or are recently out of college.
A job description is a wish list. It’s what, in a perfect world, the company would want you to have. I’ve been doing the hiring at my company for three years now, and I can guarantee that we haven’t hired anybody who ticks every single requirement posted. Now, the degree could be a stumbling block for you. I know that while we might be flexible on how many years experience you have and whether or not you’ve worked with our database type before, if we ask for degree holding candidates we’re unlikely to interview people without them.
And the only people who can get away with putting their GPA on their resume are very recent graduates, and it’s certainly not a requirement. It just looks weird when someone who graduated ten years ago lists their GPA. I’d recommend leaving yours off entirely, since it’s not super high. If they want to know what it was, they’ll ask you.
I graduated, er, some time ago. And now I’m in the sort of position where I sometimes evaluate other people’s resumes. I find GPAs on resumes odd (and if you are a post-college-grad, and your HIGH SCHOOL GPA or SAT scores are on your resume, you’re in the ‘no’ pile).
The not having a BA yet thing probably depends a lot on the type of job and the type of company. For the kinds of places I work, you’ll have to enter your education info online, and if the auto-screen doesn’t filter you out based on not meeting minimum education requirements, then the HR person is likely to filter you out upon reading your resume. And will almost certainly never look at any cover letter you put together. Smaller places or a place where you actually know someone who is willing to help you get a foot in the door may be a better place to focus your attention.
W, thanks for the info. I read about his death and went “Wait, that person was a Vine question subject, wasn’t he?” Nice to have it confirmed.
Second question: Don’t lie. Lies about “little things” are, as far as an employer is concerned, saying you have no problem lying about not-so-little things as well. Don’t have time for that, round-file it is.
Another Canadian. I have job positions that I’m recruiting for where the BA is important, and an MBA is an asset. Not because the job actually requires them, but if you’re on a career path that ends up with your bio in a proposal, you need to have it just for optics.
There are other job positions where I say BA, but really, I’m ok with you moving on a path where it doesn’t matter. I’ll point it out to the other decision makers though, and you’ll need to overcome that.
And I don’t care about your grades, but please don’t lie about them.
I realise this will come across as mean but: Finish your damn degree.
I work in IT, a field that is famed for self-taught degree-less geniuses, and right now there is actually a talent shortage, and still I know good people without degrees struggle to get hired.
The problem, as somebody mentioned above, is that there are so many applicants for jobs, that you can afford to throw resumes out without readily reading them and still end up with a great pool to shortlist from. Your resume may not even get to a human – you would fail at the computer screen, when the application form will ask you “Do you have a degree? Y/N”. And this is a burden that will get worse as you bet older, since the percentage of people in white collar jobs without degrees gets smaller and smaller.
If Faulkner and/or your college is the problem, change major/college. If your mental health is the problem, get it treated. Launching yourself in a lifetime of working without a degree: bad, bad idea. And the whole “I will get round to it later?” Probably not true, the people who go back to college are the exception rather than the rule.
The only even halfway sensible reason not to get a degree is if you are starting or taking over a business that will support you. If you expect to be applying for somebody else’s job: get a degree. All the resume help in the world (and I second Ask A Manager for that) might not help you.
Hey Sars and Vine! I had actually totally forgotten I sent this, and it’s funny to read — I’m like, “yeah, wow, I definitely remember being that panicked and bitter about my job search.” (like, I got to the part about the GPA and was like, LOL WUT). I did wind up finding a job following your advice, heh, and I’m glad to have this in writing to go back to in the event I need to talk myself down from such mental shenanigans again, because yeah: no lies, bright and smiley cover letters, and people really won’t press just about any issue if you are like “family circumstances.” (I did wind up networking too, but through my last job.)
and yes — my bitterness, like my love life, is for me, my loved ones, and strangers on the Internet, not The Workplace (real or hopeful).
Thanks again, y’all! <3
Glad to know it worked out, Shine. I’ll put in a second plug, for anybody else who’s still seeking (or even dealing with other work stuff), for the Ask a Manager blog at http://www.askamanager.org/
as it’s pretty awesome.
My college gave us two GPAs, overall and major. Maybe this doesn’t apply if you aren’t finished with your major, but I always list my major GPA, because it’s higher. I don’t know if all schools do that. If you want to list it at all* maybe your major class GPA is higher?
*I haven’t looked for a job in a while, but I have been involved in the hiring process at my current job. I’d recommend not listing it. We never ask the GPA in the interview, but if my manager saw one below 3.0, she’d probably put it in the “no” pile. You’d be surprised what weird non-essential information people offer up in cover letters and resumes. It only ever disqualifies them. We just want to know you are qualified for the job. We’ll get to know your personality in the interview.
A true story, from far better economic times (so add as much salt as you think is needed here).
I saw a job posting I thought I would be perfect for, and applied to the email address given, at some recruiting firm. Received a couple of enthusiastic phone calls from them before the one that was all “Oh hey the resume you sent over doesn’t show your degree, can you send one that does?” and then I was all “I don’t have one” and then they were all “then what is the point of you please get lost now.”
I was extra bummed, but I mentioned the opening to a friend who also seemed like a good fit. When he got an interview, which he nailed because he’s awesome, he also asked if they were hiring multiple people for the position, because he had this friend who’d be good too. They said “sure, do you have her resume?”
When I got an interview, which I nailed because I’m awesome, I also mentioned my lack of a degree and my rejection by their recruiter. They furrowed their brows and said “we don’t require any degree, that must be their requirement.”
My friend and I both got job offers. My friend also got a nice referral bonus, which he split with me. The recruiter got nothing, unless you count the email I sent her, which said, in so many words, NEENER.
Boy, I miss the year 2000. That world is gone now, but I think the lesson that recruiters, contracting firms, head-hunters, and other middlemen may have their own agendas still applies.
Recovering from emotional illness is tough. Some good news is, you have a lot going for you. Highlight your time serving your country through AmeriCorps. Participating in AmeriCorps successfully (twice) is indeed finishing a major, long-term project – and the service can be more intensive and demanding than a regular entry-level job. I don’t know which AmeriCorps program you were in, Shine. AmeriCorps VISTAs are part of three-year project cycles with measurable goals for each year. If your AmeriCorps service was similar, you can emphasize the projects’ goals and objectives. As appropriate, you can talk about the skills and experience you gained through the projects, and even the challenges of volunteering full-time for two years. Your service is an asset, and something to set you apart positively.
On another note, it might be worthwhile to consider different types of jobs. After six successful years in nonprofits, I’ve chosen to work in retail. I have nearly the same take-home pay, I do get to use some of my specialized skills and experience, and I mostly like the job. I’m using the time and mental and emotional freedom it gives me to start my own business. There are tons of options that don’t require a degree, and there’s no shame in them. In any case, don’t try to do something you’re not ready to do just because you think you have to to get a job. Nothing’s certain in our economic structure, and it’s most important for you to be healthy and happy (i.e., don’t “get your damn degree” if you’re not ready). Good luck with everything!
@Jamie “You’d be surprised what weird non-essential information people offer up in cover letters and resumes. It only ever disqualifies them.”
Yes! I worked a career fair at a local university lately. And I expect resumes from college students may not be the most polished. But I do not need to know that you play bass in a band, that you made aliyah, that you got some service award in junior high, etc when I’m looking for a Java programmer – especially not when this information pushes your resume over the one-page mark.
I think listing GPA on a resume comes off as braggy, because it’s only the people with double majors and ridiculously high GPAs that do it. Listing ‘magna cum laude’ or whatever, doesn’t feel as boastful when I’m reading resumes.
My CEO loves to ask the question in interviews though. I think it’s because he tends to be a ‘one time, at band camp’ guy, and sharing ‘d’oh that one class/professor that really got me’ story is how he tries to relate to recent college grad types that we look for in our entry level positions.
@not shining them on: Glad things are looking up for you! Varied experience can really set you apart if you know how to present it.
Re: the GPA issue. I would say, usually don’t print it on the resume and just offer the information if it’s asked. However, Toni above makes a great point that in a case like Shine’s, printing the GPA proves that he/she did not flunk out, which I think is a point you want to be able to make without saying it outright.
Really have to thank the people who linked to that Ask a Manager blog in these comments. I’ve been perusing it all day, and also shared it with a friend who is looking for a new job right now, and we have both found so much good advice about resumes and interviewing and dealing with general job and office crap. Good stuff. And likewise for the advice in these comments. My friend and I have both come to realize that a lot of what we’ve been told re: resume and cover letter writing by so-called “experts” has been flat-out wrong.
I’ve become an evangelist for Ask a Manager. I’ve learned so much about the job search process AND how to be a better manager.