The Vine: October 5, 2011
Dear Tomato Nation:
Small backstory. In 2000, a friend from college and I became more to each other as we both came out of the closet, post-college, moved in together and had a wedding ceremony (without a minister, just in our backyard, but we regarded it very seriously). Our friends and family were present, etc. We were both 26 (oh it felt so old at the time).
Less than 8 months later, we broke up. I left her the house that my parents had given us the down payment for, because the leaving was at my instigation (but she was in agreement). We’ve talked a few times over the years; she and I both have had serious relationships with other women, and then five years ago I switched teams (which she knew, we talked about it) and got married. I thought we thought of each other fondly, knowing we were young and it wasn’t meant to be (one huge issue: she knew, strongly, that she never, never, never wanted children, I knew strongly that I did).
My grandmother (98) died three weeks ago, and at the funeral my dad asked what happened to the wedding ring my grandmother had given me. I had given it to my then-partner, NOT as a condition of our love, but as a strong message to her that she mattered, deeply, at a point in her life when she was really struggling with depression. In the years since, I’ve wondered if she treasured the ring or if it had ceased to be that important, as its importance to me seemed to grow. With a nudge from my sister, I wrote her this note after the funeral, trying to be a bit chatty and to make an odd request but with many outs in case it still really mattered to her:
“Hey [person]: How are you? How’s [grad school you attend]? I hope you love it out there. I’m writing with a bit of an odd request. My grandmother (my dad’s mom), died last week at the age of 98. She was ready, and it was her time, but my dad was still pretty broken up about it. We went back to [hometown] (we being my husband, my son (3), my daughter (1 almost 2) and I’m pregnant with our third) for the funeral. A long time ago, my Mamaw gave me her wedding ring, and my dad asked me about it. I had given it to you during a very hard time in your life, asking you to take it not as a sign of our love, but as a sign of how much I valued your life, and how important you were/are. I stand by that sentiment (of course!) but do wonder if you still have the ring, if you still wear it, or, if not, if you might see your way to possibly sending it back to me, even just as a loan just for me to see it and take some pictures (so I can get a copy made, I did always love the design of the ring). I hope you don’t find this request odd and/or cruel. If the ring is as meaningful to you now as it is to me, please just tell me so. Same for if you’ve sold it and/or given it away — I’m just wondering about it. Thanks so much, [my name]”
Her reply: “Dear [me], While you said you didn’t intend your ring request to be cruel, it actually was, on a number of different levels. I am sorry you cannot see this. I am not harboring bad feelings about it, and I do wish you and your family the best. I will look for the ring when I have time. Please don’t contact me again. [her]”
I of course immediately wrote her back apologizing profusely, retracting all requests for the ring, and apologizing again for contacting her while assuring her I won’t do it again. Was this an unforgivable request? Can you help me understand how it was cruel, and on which levels? I’m genuinely sorry I asked her, and even sorrier that it struck her as cruel.
Sincerely,
Unintentional Cruelty
Dear UC,
Well, I don’t get “cruel” from it — but it’s you who broached that term in your initial letter. So, that’s one thing.
Another thing, the main thing, is that you don’t really get to ask for gifts back. You especially don’t get to ask for rings back that you gave to former lovers. I understand that it’s a difficult time for your family; I understand that there’s no good way to do it. But that’s…kind of the point. You’re not supposed to do it. You say that the marriage wasn’t official, you make a point of mentioning your youth and seeming embarrassed by the whole thing, and you also make a point of saying that you didn’t give her the ring as a token of your love, but rather as an…encouragement to her not to give up hope, I guess? All of which is…whatever it is, but it comes off like an attempt to write off your whole history with her so that you’ll have “the right” to ask for the ring back, which you basically don’t, and which is dismissive and hurtful to boot.
And that condescending tone comes through loud and clear in your letter to her, too. Like, she doesn’t probably need a reminder that the ring didn’t signify a commitment on your part. She got that when you moved out ten years ago. No need to pointedly mention the husband and kids, either. She’s not a five-year-old. I mean, if I got a letter like that from an ex, I’d have no problem with the request itself. I might not honor it, but he’s welcome to ask. The patronizing tone is not going to work.
Again, “cruel” is going too far — but on top of making a request you probably shouldn’t, you take every opportunity, verbally, to distance yourself from her and what you had together, and you speak to her like she’s a child. I also have to wonder what the real issue is, here. If you only want to see and/or make over the ring design, why not just email her and say, “My grandma died recently, and I was reminded of her engagement ring — I’d really like to have the design copied. If you still have it, can you send me a couple of photos so that I can bring them to a jeweler? I’d really appreciate it. No rush. Hope you’re well otherwise, UC.” That leaves her an opening to offer to return the ring, and if she doesn’t take that opening, so be it. Copy the ring, live your life.
But it feels to me like that isn’t the end of it. Does your father not know that you gave the ring to her? Do you want it back so that you can give it back to him, without having to explain that you lost it in a relationship that ended a decade ago? Or is this the last thing that stands between you and pretending that pairing never happened? Like I said before, you seem pretty eager to downplay the relationship’s importance to you. Maybe I’m wrong; it’s just a sense I get.
In any case, I wouldn’t call the request “unforgivable.” We can’t all be gracious and well-spoken every minute, and she’ll get over it or she won’t; you’re not a bad person, or mean. You may want to watch your tone, though — and to accept, as you should have back when you gave it to her freely, that you’ve seen the last of that ring.
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette
If the ex doesn’t even know where the ring is, it is hard to imagine it is that important to her. Based on that information, her comment that it is “cruel” to ask for it back seems over the top. She would have to be able to guess that the engagement ring of someone’s dead grandmother might be something the other person would want back.
I was always kind of under the impression that heirloom/family jewelry, if given to a partner in a relationship, was to be returned if the relationship ended, and the receiver was no longer part of the “family.”
Yes, the situation is awkward, and yes, the request is not necessarily something that is “done,” but unless there is something else going on here, the reaction of the ex seems a little overboard.
I think Sars hit it right on the head here, as usual. The only other thing that strikes me about this situation is that I don’t think you can really give a wedding ring (and a family heirloom wedding ring, at that) to someone with the caveat that “this isn’t a love token, it just means I want you to like yourself.” Or whatever you meant it to mean. Wedding rings by definition are a token of love. This particular wedding ring — by its continued existence — represents a token of love, and I imagine it had to sting a bit to be reminded that it was not really that at all when it was given *to her.* And to ask to have it returned after all this time, besides, as though even the diminished sentiment with which it was given was now moot. I know that’s not what you said in the letter, per se, and it’s probably not what you intended, but that’s what would come through to me if I had received it.
I think all you can do now is let your father know that you gave the ring to your former partner. If she decides to return it someday, or send you a photo so you can have it duplicated, send her a simple thank you note and leave it at that. If she doesn’t, then don’t contact her again.
That said, I’m sorry for the loss of your grandmother — times like that are so hard, and I certainly understand the impulse to try and retrieve a keepsake of her. There’s just no graceful way to do it in this case.
She asked you not to contact her again. You followed up by contacting her again. If she was going to look for the ring before, she probably won’t now. I would just accept that the ring is lost.
As always Sars just took the words out of my mouth. As I was reading the part where UC describes the e-mail she sent, I was thinking to myself “Why not just cut out the extra details, mention that you’d like to make a copy of the ring made because you miss having it, and leave it at that? If she doesn’t care, she’ll send it back, and if she does, you’re not putting her out too much by asking for a few pictures”.
Aside for that, it sounds like you’re bending over backward to emphasize the distance you’ve put between yourself and your previous life together. Moreover, a husband and kids might not be things that she wants for herself now (but for all you know, she might have changed her mind about kids: I know I went from “never ever ever ever. EVER.” to “loving every minute of being spit on, puked on, and treated like an oversized toy” in the span of a decade), but you sure do go out of your way to virtually bandy them about, almost as if to rub in your happiness.
You might as well written “Dear ex-lover, look at how fulfilled and happy I am in my new life. I hope you also feel fulfilled by your little life you’ve built for yourself. BTW, if you’re so fulfilled, you won’t mind sending back this trinket that might mean a lot to you, but not nearly as much as it means to me, would you?”.
Not saying this was the intent, but there is room to misunderstand things thus, especially if the two of you haven’t been close in years, especially if she had strong feelings about you changing your mind about your orientation (you say you “discussed” it before, but you don’t mention whether she was fully supportive of your choice).
Hmm. I read the husband and kids detail as an aside to the Nation, and not something that was actually in the note. That colored my initial reaction to the letter, which is something like MizShrew’s. As much as I love my engagement ring, which is a family heirloom to my husband’s family, if our relationship ended, it would have to go back to him. It would be totally wrong of me to keep it, because it just doesn’t have the family history for me that it does for him, and his whole extended family. (It was his grandmother’s, there was a bit of a fuss over who got it when she died. Fortunately, they all like me!)
On the other hand, I’m kinda unclear about when UC gave the ring to her wife. Was it during/before the marriage, or at some point after, when they were still close, but not still in a relationship? Because if it was after the relationship ended, it’s more of a gift, and less of a relationship-related piece of jewelry.
Ahhh, the tactful request, and why it backfires.
The problem with trying to be tactful is that the recipent of the tact is going to start thinking “Why are they trying to be so tactful?
dothey think I’m an infant or so immature they have to softpedal such a small request?” Then they get offended, almost to the exact degree of the overexaggeration of the tact. That’s why she said your request was “cruel”–it wasn’t the request, it was the idea that you feel you had to handle her with such kid gloves, like after a decade you were such a monumental event in her life she can’t bear any kind of directness from you.
Not that you meant any of that! It’s just one of the many ways human beings misunderstand each other. Let it lie, and try to make peace with the loss of the ring.
I am very sorry about your grandmother’s passing, and I think she would understand your gifting her ring to someone who was special to you, so please try not to feel too upset about that. Things happen and thank God, most of the time we mean well.
IDK, I didn’t read the letter as “condescending” so much as “oversharing/overexplaining/being way too friendly in an attempt to make contacting someone out of the blue to ask for a favor seem less awkward.” Which IS awkward, but I didn’t think it was maliciously meant. Nor do I think the request itself is out of line – family heirlooms are the kind of thing that tend to be returned at the end of relationships, aren’t they? It’s not like demanding back the iPod you gave her for Christmas.
So I read her response as saying more about her than you – whether she felt you were being condescending; she isn’t as okay with you/the end of your relationship as you thought; she isn’t happy with something in her life and didn’t need the reminder that everything in YOUR life is just dandy; she loves that ring and you can pry it off her cold dead finger; whatever. I wouldn’t beat yourself up over whether you did something wrong and just accept that for whatever reason (bad timing, bad wording, your mere existence) she was upset by the letter and may not give back the ring. C’est la vie, you know?
I didn’t read the letter as “condescending” so much as “oversharing/overexplaining/being way too friendly in an attempt to make contacting someone out of the blue to ask for a favor seem less awkward.” Which IS awkward, but I didn’t think it was maliciously meant.
Oh, I don’t either. Certainly the condescension isn’t intentional. But there’s something about this — “I had given it to my then-partner, NOT as a condition of our love, but as a strong message to her that she mattered, deeply, at a point in her life when she was really struggling with depression” — that gets up my nose, I have to say. I’m sure it’s not meant badly, as I said, but there’s an implication there that Partner was not considered on equal footing, or was pitied, and the letter TO Partner sort of implies the same thing.
But there’s just a lot going on here, and we may not have the entire picture. “I left her the house that my parents had given us the down payment for, because the leaving was at my instigation (but she was in agreement)” — why was this included? What other information was NOT included? Because unless I did someone very obvious, unbleachable dirt, I would not leave them in possession of an entire house that MY parents had financed. And…possibly not even then. I’m not saying; I’m…just saying. So, why mention that tidbit? Unless…you feel like Partner has “gotten enough out of” your family, and should just turn over the ring already.
And hey, fine. I can see the argument that heirlooms should be returned, too — but why didn’t UC use that argument? “My dad is devastated by my grandmother’s death and really would like that ring returned to the family; I’m so sorry to ask for it back, but grief is a strange” etc. and so on. If that’s the truth, why not just say that, instead of going with, “Yeah, since the ring WASN’T a sign of our love, I’d like it back”?
I agree that the “cruel” response may say more about Partner than about UC. But there are things we weren’t told that probably speak the loudest here.
Wow, I don’t know how my brain blew right past that house thing, which…actually, you’re totally right, kind of changes the whole situation in my mind. Or clarifies it, anyway.
Anyway, I only meant to speak up for the awkward bragging babblers – I once spent forever writing a long email to an old friend things had gone cold with (“Does that sound too abrupt? Too fawning?”) and when I finally sent it I realized I’d forgotten to actually ask the question that was the purpose of the email in the first place. It probably looked like I’d decided to write her up out of the blue just to snottily tell her awesome my life was now.
(And also re: “The ring was NOT an indicator of our love” was oddly emphasized and maybe UC can clarify what she meant, but I parsed it to mean that it wasn’t given as a wedding or engagement ring specifically, because those tend to come with their own entire book of Etiquette Rules of Who Gets to Keep What in the Event the Relationship Ends How, but rather just a “here’s something nice I’d like you to have” gift, for which there’s not so much protocol.)
Also, for me it’s almost a “why now?” thing. We aren’t told when the ring was given to the ex. It might have been during their partnership, or afterward. If it was during, then the time to ask for it back is when that partnership was dissolved. If it was after, this falls into “giving my ex who is also my friend a gift”, which means that hey, it’s gone.
I get that maybe UC was just trying to emphasize that the ring was not given as an engagement ring. But that’s just it — you don’t give family heirloom *wedding* rings to people just because they’re having a tough time. Those kind of things mean something, no matter how much you try to clarify it or amend it or whatever at the time or afterward. Culturally, a ring like that signifies a Pretty Big Thing. So to pretend that it was just a friendship ring or whatever? I dunno. Seems disingenuous. Or swept up in the moment, or something. I’m not saying it was malicious at all. But you can’t pretend that the woman couldn’t or shouldn’t have interpreted it to mean more.
And sure, I get that an heirloom probably should be returned to the original family after a break-up. They have different rules attributed to them because they represent history, family, all that. In Ex’s shoes I’d return the ring, myself. But then (as others have mentioned) UC should have simply put it that way, without too much additional embellishment. “In the aftermath of my grandmothers’ death, my father has requested that her wedding ring be returned if at all possible — he’d like the keepsake. I know this is awkward, but is there any way we can arrange this for him?” Then it’s not about their past relationship, or UC’s current one. It’s a simple request from a grieving son, passed on by the daughter. Period. But now that she’d put all the rest of it out there, I’m afraid that UC has to live with the hurt and anger it has stirred up and accept that the ring is likely lost to her. Which sucks, of course, but there it is.
There is the slight possibility that Ex will send back the ring just to be rid of any reminder of UC. “Here’s your damn ring” isn’t the most elegant end to the saga, but it might be the best UC can hope for here.
Hmm, it’s hard for me to be objective about this, but, here goes :
If the ring had been given as an engagement or a wedding ring, and it was known to be a family heirloom, then UC and ex should have discussed its status when the relationship ended. That’s how marriage symbols work.
However, the emphasis UC places on the ring being not part of the relationship means that it really isn’t appropriate to ask for it back.
You can’t have it both ways. Either it was just a gift with no strings attached which can’t be called back, or it was part of a short-lived marriage and should have been figured out when the marriage ended.
I’m with Roo on this one. And I can see how somebody could perceive the tone as condescending rather than nervous and embarrassed, and I would definitely agree with Sars’s critique if she were emailing someone she barely knew. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect someone who’s familiar with your speaking style to apply that familiarity when reading your emails, and not misinterpret.
The inclusion of the house detail seemed like a defensive thing to me. The ex’s accusation was probably a little jarring, and I think she might just be fishing for some validation from objective third parties that she’s not cruel. (“I gave her a house! Would a cruel person give her ex a house?”)
All of that said…there was a sorta similar letter to this in Dear Prudence a couple months back, and Prudence’s response was clearly just based on a first impression: she condemned the ex, she reassured the letter writer that her intentions were honorable, and she made a crack about how much better off the LW was now without the irrational ex. That Sars actually addresses the content and style of the email so that she can answer the actual questions that UC’s posing is why I like The Vine so much better than other advice columns. Emily Yoffe and Dan Savage should be required to study Vine archives to get Advice Columnist continuing education credits or something.
I agree with everything said about the etiquette of asking for gifts back, letter was not phrased the best, blah, blah, blah…Still, for me, this boils down to-UC just lost her grandma. She’d like to have her ring; it will bring her some comfort. The ring’s only meaning to me is a memento of a relationship long dead and buried. If I’m the recipient, I look for the ring and send it ASAP because I’m a compassionate, caring person.
Whether it’s proper etiquette to ask for the ring back or not, dead grandma trumps my ex hurt my feelings with a tacky request.
It’s not dead gramma vs. feelings, though, because gramma isn’t the ring, and gramma isn’t going to be forgotten any quicker for the OP’s not having the ring. Her death makes it understandable that the OP would like the ring, but it doesn’t give her any extra right to it–it’s just two people’s sets of feelings that can’t really be ranked for priority.
I do suspect that this is one of these common cases where the former spouses have different takes on the breakup, and that a communication that makes emotionally contextual sense to the OP really doesn’t to her ex. Which I guess is kind of the point the ex made.
But mostly I’m thinking that the ring apparently changed hands, as it were, eleven years ago. If a decade-past ex contacted me to say “Can I have back something I gave you eleven years ago?” my jaw would hit the floor, and if I bothered to respond, it would be along the lines of “Have you lost your mind?”
Related to Meg’s point, I’m wondering if the ex perceived the request as cruel because there’s so much emphasis placed on “this ring was a symbol of how much I value you and your life”. By asking it back – especially by reemphazising that point, intentionally or not intentionally, it sends the message that UC doesn’t really value either of those things anymore. While I’m sure that’s not true in a general sense, it really forces the issue of “you’re just not that important to me anymore” while also potentially dredging up a time in the ex’s life that she may really not want to be reminded of.
It also seems like the ring isn’t something that the Letter Writer has really thought about for a long time. If she said something along the lines of “in the decade since the relationship ended I’ve constantly found myself thinking of THAT Ring and what it means to me.” But it seems like the only reason that she thought of it was because of this death in her family (which is reasonable) and the instigation of her sister. So I guess I just wonder why she didn’t have these feeling earlier if it really was that important a thing.
I also think that the emphasis on the reason she gave the ring is kind of strange. It almost seems like one of those tokens that AA people have to mark their sobriety. (I could be way off base about that.)
My last thing is that “I will look for the ring when I have time.” doesn’t seem to me to mean that the ring isn’t important. I think the ring is Very Important to the Ex but she is trying to cover that up so she doesn’t seem vulnerable? I may not be explaining myself very well.
I kind of cringed when I read the text of the email to ex. I didn’t read it as cruel, but wow awkward and almost tacky. And that’s from ME, who is an objective bystander. No matter how much water is under the bridge, I can imagine a note like this possibly dredging up some old feelings, and that could easily explain ex’s response.
You really don’t get this ring back, I think. Maybe you get to be in touch with ex again on happy terms, but I’d probably make a point to never mention this little back and forth ever again, for everyone’s sake.
I have never understood why anyone would WANT to keep onto a wedding (or other) ring after a relationship dissolves. Isn’t the point of the ring to show people you’re married? I guess it depends on the style of ring, but I don’t imagine many divorced women are still wearing the band or engagement ring from their failed relationship. I can MAYBE see selling it, but unless you originally bought it that seems kind of bizarre.
I agree, Marv–I thought the “I’ll look for it when I get to it” line was a cover, exactly like what I would have said, too, if I felt like 1) it would be hurtful to the writer, and if I were already hurt, I might try to hurt her in response, or 2) if I felt pathetic about treasuring something that an ex had given me years and years ago. In fact, I’m pretty sure she knows exactly where it is, even if she doesn’t care about it or wear it–but she might in fact like it and wear it a lot.
These comments are so perceptive, and really gave me a different perspective on this letter. Right on.
One thing to add: is it possible, UC, that you hate it when people are unhappy with you? Of course, none of us like it, but maybe you *really* can’t stand it? From giving your ex-partner a house, to over-explaining in the letter, to falling all over yourself apologizing when your error didn’t deserve her level of reaction…
And here, you’re stuck between two people who might be unhappy with you: your dad, who would like the ring and whom maybe you still feel bad for because he lost money on a house that went to your ex; and your ex, who’s mad about your request.
And to take this hunch one step further, maybe you sometimes attract people that sense that about you, and take advantage of it? Like your ex?
Not sure if this resonates but if it does, I heartily recommend developing a healthy “You know what, then? Go screw” attitude that can be implemented in appropriate situations. Lessons are being offered for daily and for free on the East Coast.
‘Hmm. I read the husband and kids detail as an aside to the Nation, and not something that was actually in the note.’
But there *are* remarks about the husband and kids in the note (which are completely unnecessary to the request). As well as the emphatic repetition about how the ring was totally, absolutely *NOT* a token of love or commitment.
In any event, when you’re asking someone a favor, underlining how totally not important they are to you and how you so didn’t give them a gift out of affection is not a great way to make your case.
FWLIW, I didn’t read the initial letter as condescending and was surprised when SARS offered that interpretation.
Don’t have any advice to offer. If I got that letter, I’d either be all “Shoot, is that still in that drawer?” and mail it back, or “Nope, I love that ring, the precious is going nowhere.” But my reaction wouldn’t depend on the tone of the letter, which sounded innocuous to my ear.
I had the same reaction emandik did to the letter. By specifically stating that the ring was given “as a sign of how much I valued your life, and how important you were/are”, while at the same time asking for it back, it sends the message that the user is trying to take back the sentiment as well, or that those feelings no longer apply.
Also, while I’m sure the letter writer means well, the mentioning of the happy family with the husband and kids kind comes off less as a breezy “whats up with you here’s what’s up with me” opening, and more like a “look how happy and fulfilled I am with my great straight family”. If ex is still prone to depression or thoughts of self deprecation, then I could definitely see her filling in the rest of that thought with “…in ways I never was with you. Which is why I want the ring back”. Again, not saying this was UC’s intent, but I could see it happening.
I don’t think there is too much to be done here – ex doesn’t want any more contact, so I would just write the ring off. If it appears in the mail, great, if not, move on.
Yes, Nicole, I completely agree about the “here’s how great my straight family is” sentiment. I’m completely not objective here — I’ve been in the ex’s position — but I still think it would have been more appropriate to not mention the new family, unless there’s been lots of interaction, but then the awkwardness wouldn’t be there, right?
The letter was innocuous – although a bit uncomfortably over-sharey and over-friendly – to my ear as well, and was also surprised by Sars’ response. The comments help me see that POV, though.
She should return the ring, IMO. As others have said, family heirlooms are exempt from traditional gift rules, IMO, and if the word “cruel” applies anywhere in this scenario, it’s in the ex’s apparent refusal to return the ring originating from the dead grandmother of a woman she now no longer wishes to have contact with. What will she look on the ring with now, except bitterness? What possible reason does she have to keep it now except spite?
Speaking of spite, this “Please don’t contact me again” business is so childish, so drama queen. It’s a manipulation, a power play. She knows the letter-writer wants the ring, and she’s enjoying the fact that she has the ability to deny it (see: cruel) – from her vague offense (“I’m sorry you can’t see it”), to her making sure the writer knows that, while the ring will probably be kept, it is also unimportant (“I’ll look for it if I have time”), to her attempt at the termination of contact, which is just the icing on the cake. How nice it would be, had she just responded like the adult she presumably is. If her feelings were hurt, she could have simply told the letter-writer why and taken it from there.
Speaking of spite, this “Please don’t contact me again” business is so childish, so drama queen. It’s a manipulation, a power play. She knows the letter-writer wants the ring, and she’s enjoying the fact that she has the ability to deny it
…I wouldn’t say she’s “enjoying” any of this. That scorched-earth reaction is my main reason for saying that something else must be going on here (or have gone on here, really). I mean, you’re right; regardless of the (secret) history, the smart move is to Fed Ex the ring back the next day and make that the end of it. Partner chose to make a federal case of it instead. Based on other hints here, it makes me wonder. Partner could just be a drama queen, but she may not be the only one.
“NOT as a condition of our love, but as a strong message to her that she mattered, deeply, at a point in her life when she was really struggling with depression”
I so took this exactly in the opposite way everybody else took it. I assumed the letter-writer was actually using this to explain why the ex would have every right/desire to keep the family heirloom ring, rather than give it back, like many people would probably do with a romantic token after the end of a relationship. In other words, she’s saying “I didn’t give you the ring as a condition of us being in a relationship/loving each other romantically, but as a token of how important a person I think you are,” with “so I understand completely if it still means something to you and you want to keep it” being the unspoken part. It struck me that she wouldn’t have felt as bad asking about it if it HAD been a token of romantic love/commitment since … the romantic love/commitment is obviously long over between them.
Obviously the ex didn’t take it this way, and I can see in the letter how she might have gotten offended by the tone or various little things. I can also see how anyone NOT harboring some issues about the end of that relationship could have overlooked the awkwardness of the request and simply replied with “Actually, I still wear it all the time and would rather keep it, thanks,” or “I had forgotten all about that ring, but will look for it when I have the time.” It’s perfectly fine for the ex to be offended, but it’s also ok for the letter-writer to wonder WTF – she was under the impression that they now “thought of each other fondly,” but that reply practically screams “I am so not over what happened between us/that painful time in my life.” It’s not a reply I would have expected if I genuinely thought my ex and I had both moved on, even if I knew I was making a kind of tacky request.
UC here; thanks for your advice. My dad does know about the ring, and doesn’t care. It was thoughtless of me to ask for it back (why I hadn’t done it for 10 years), and then to write TN for validation. The ring was not part of the wedding or the ceremony; I gave it to her at the very beginning as our best friend-ship turned to love. We had engagement/wedding rings we bought each other, and both kept. She and I were friends for years prior to our love affair, and we have kept in sporadic touch after the end.
The house was, well, besides the point, but yes, again trying to “prove” to TN that I’m “nice.” I’d be surprised (I’d venture into stunned) if she was … I dunno, harboring some kind of hurt or sadness still — it was a quiet end to a not-successful relationship; she found a new partner almost immediately and has seemed happy these 10 years. I can see how the husband/kids thing would see show-off-y; I meant it as — “can you believe where I ended up?!” Anyway. Thanks for the advice; I realize the ring is long gone, and wish I hadn’t reached out to her about it at all.
Hey, UC/Elizabeth K, I hope you’re not going to beat yourself up over this. We all do things that we regret; you didn’t mean any harm. Maybe she was feeling ultra sensitive for some reason when she got the email and it was just unintentional bad timing; maybe she still has some issues over the past; maybe it was just a well-meant inquiry gone wrong.
You’re happy where you’re at, hopefully she is too. It’ll all drift away. :)
I think the main thing that really got to me in this story was the dismissive “(oh it felt so old at the time)”–the folly-of-youth tone that UC uses to explain away this relationship, like it couldn’t possibly be have been as real and true as her current marriage and family situation. Take it from someone who got married at 22 and is about to celebrate a 17th anniversary–tomorrow, in fact: Plenty of people at 26 and thereabouts are grown-up enough to know what they want.
I get that gifts are gifts, but at the same time, it seems Grade-A Assholish to not give back family heirlooms if a marriage/relationship breaks up. So…kind of bad on both sides here.
I don’t see the “not as a token of love” thing as an explanation of why the ring ought to be given back; I’m seeing it more as a desperate attempt to explain why such a progressive happening couple would do something so right-from-the-1950s as giving your partner a ring at a wedding ceremony. There’s actually quite a bit of that in the letter, I think.
Oh, and “the leaving was at my instigation” = letter-writer cheated.
If I had been given a family item by a lover and we had then broken up, I wouldn’t dream of keeping that family item: I’d think that the only decent thing to do is to return it (and not have to be asked to do so, either). It’s not often that I disagree with Sars’s advice, but I really don’t think the letter-writer did much wrong here and I think that the ex-partner is being a drama queen, and unreasonable to boot.
When I dated someone in my early 20s, he gave me his grandmother’s engagement ring. It wasn’t an engagement ring in our relationship but a token of his love. When we broke up, I gave the ring back to him. He tried to insist that I keep it because, as he said, “My grandmother told me to give this to the woman I want to marry someday and even if we don’t ever get married, I’ll always wish that we had.” It was a sweet sentiment but not one I wanted him to regret 10, 20 years later so I insisted he keep the family ring. In hindsight, I think that was the right decision.
I’m not saying the ex in this situation should have done the same thing when they split however, I do think that family heirlooms should be returned. Since it wasn’t, I think there’s nothing wrong with UC *wanting* it back but the proverbial statute of limitations kind of ran out on that awhile ago – you break up with someone and ten years later you ask for something back? Really? Even if it’s a family heirloom, that’s still kind of tacky. I would have felt more comfortable about this situation if she had simply asked for a photo or two so she could have it copied (though what’s the point, if it’s just a replica and not the actual family heirloom?) and if she had left out all her peronsal details (if that was in fact in the letter and not as an aside to her letter to you, detailing the incident).
I took the ex’s hostile response to be because the letter made it sound like the letter writer’s family put her up to the request for the ring back because they thought it was their property that was wrongfully given to a not-real relationship. I think she just took offense to the family influence more so than it coming from the letter-writer. I also think that clearly the gift of the house was not enough to the ex. Of course, only she can say. But, the ring is history. It’ll never be seen again, and no explanation will be given…that much seems clear.