The Vine: September 17, 2008
Hi Sars,
So I just broke up with my husband almost two months ago; he’s a wonderful guy: responsible, great father, dedicated to his job. Frankly, I would have broken up with him three years ago if I hadn’t gotten pregnant (although phrasing it that way makes it sound like a total accident, which it was, but I/we consciously chose to have and keep our delightful daughter).
Our communication has always been terrible, in a fundamental sort of way. I like to air out my emotions while he keeps his inside, and even when we were first together I began to feel like a bit of a weirdo because I was far more emotional and every time I would react to something he would respond as if I was undergoing some bizarre sort of personality transplant and should be treated with care.
At any rate, we’ve been together for five years, and I had to just call it quits because I saw myself giving away all of my goals, needs, and general desires: he had no intention of moving when I went to graduate school; we had no emotional intimacy; our sex life sucked. I felt that I had to give it the old college try for the sake of our daughter. Now I realize that, at least in some cases, having happy, fulfilled parents is more essential than parents who are simply together.
Okay. So I’m starved — sexually, emotionally, even somewhat socially. I haven’t dated in five years but (and this is going to sound narcissistic) I’ve always had a pretty face and have never had a hard time finding men, at least in general. Except now.
I’ve casually dated two men in the past two months, and obviously I’m not ready for this because I’ve sent both of them fleeing for the wilderness with my overly-emotive response. This sucks. What sucks more is that I’m hurt to an unusual extent by their rejection. Before, when I was dating, I had never been dumped — not once — and now I’ve been dumped twice, more or less, in a very short period. I’m sad and disappointed, but I’m realizing that I would do better to invest some time in recovering a sense of balance within myself before jumping back into the dating pool. The thing is: this is hard.
I don’t really know what to do, except take it easy, focus on school and recover from my previous relationship. I thought that I already had recovered; I had emotionally been over him for years, but perhaps all of what I perceived as emotional deprivation has taken a greater toll on me than I thought.
Do you have any words of advice? Perhaps I haven’t really asked a decent question, but mostly what I’m wondering is how long I can expect it to take to recover from a long-term relationship (which probably has no good answer), and when I’m “allowed” to start dating again (because I really really want to; this would be awesome).
Thanks for everything. Your advice is beyond excellent.
The Girl with No Signature
Dear No Sig,
What’s the old rule of thumb — for every year of the relationship, it’s three months of recovery time?I can’t remember the numbers, and of course it’s going to vary from person to person; sometimes the break-up takes hold in your heart before it comes out of your mouth.So, I’d give yourself a year, but as far as recovering from the time spent with your husband goes, it’s not the time that’s the issue; it’s the husband.
You make a point of saying you’ve never been dumped before, which is interesting, for a few reasons.First, not that getting dumped doesn’t at least sting a little, usually, but I’ve gotten dumped a bunch of times, and it’s invaluable, it really is.It gives you perspective; it gives you the tools to cope with rejection and disappointment and people not treating you right, all the things that, alas, life is full of, and that you have to learn to cope with (or avoid next time).It’s hard to view it as an educational tool, but now that it’s happened a couple of times…I won’t tell you it gets easier, because not every dump is the same, but the bones tend to heal stronger.
Not everyone is going to get your emotionality, or dig it long-term; this is the big lesson, that not every guy is for you, and that that is value-neutral.Nothing wrong with you; nothing wrong with him; just a bad fit.But the second point is that, when you got married, you chose a guy who did kind of dump you, like, on a daily basis.He closed himself off from you, he made you feel crazy for your responses to things…this is maddening, I agree, but now I think maybe you go into these situations still not understanding what drew you to your husband’s withholding nature, so you try to recreate the situation and “win” this time, or get it “right.”
This is totally normal, tons of people do it, but it’s no fun and won’t go anywhere enjoyable.So, don’t focus on the dating or the timeframe; go to counseling instead of on dates for a few months, and work out what you want, why you might be drawn to guys who can’t deal with you for you, and what’s really going on underneath that.
If you just want to date around and have some fun, go for it.If you want a long-term partner, you should take the time up front and decide what that’s going to look like, because you don’t just want to get over your husband.You want to get over every guy like him, because that doesn’t work for you.
Hey Sars,
I have a social situation that is driving me crazy.My partner and I have become friends with several other couples by meeting them at a local wine bar/shop.The whole deal is pretty communist, really, couples will buy bottles of wine and share them among the group so that everyone can have a taste.The prices of the bottles submitted usually vary due to financial ability of the buyer, but the bottles are always shared freely.
The problem is there is one couple who I’ll call the Moochersons who have started taking advantage of the situation.The remaining folks in the group have started resenting the Moochersons — Mr. Moocherson in particular — for not keeping up his end of the deal, especially considering that both Mr. and Mrs. M work in a high-paying profession.There have been entire nights where the Moochersons don’t purchase anything, content to drink everyone else’s wine.There have also been dinners to which everyone brings a bottle each (i.e. two bottles per couple), but the Moochersons will only bring one, lower-priced bottle for the two of them, expecting that the host will open something from his cellar.
My problem is that I’m probably the closest among the group to the Moochersons because I’m involved in an organization with them, and I’m afraid they may not know why some of the group members are starting to resent them.I’m concerned that the resentment has already started getting out of hand, especially since some people in the group are now intentionally leaving the Moochersons out of shared bottles in their presence because they know the favor won’t be returned.As the closest person to the Moochersons, I feel like I should let them know why the situation has gotten to the point that it has.
My question, then, is do I pull the Moochersons aside and let them know?And, if so, what would be the best way to go about it?
Just pony up a bottle already, dammit!
Dear Pony,
I don’t know if it’s safe to assume that the Moochersons sense there’s a problem, but don’t know what it is; the skinflinty behavior sounds deliberate to me.Regardless, you probably want to start out by calling them on the behavior at the time, or just beforehand.
In a dinner situation, email or call with a gentle reminder that it’s two bottles per couple, not just one, as “there’s been some confusion on that point” in the past.It gives you an out as far as calling them on it specifically, but at the same time they can’t reasonably claim they didn’t know.
If it’s a bottle-buying event, sit next to the Moochersons; if half the evening elapses and they haven’t moved to buy a bottle, wonder pointedly aloud if they have a bottle they’d like the group to try.
As you know, these strategies are known as “hints.”As you also know if you’ve read The Vine for any length of time, subjects of Vine letters are not terribly susceptible to hinting, but it’s something you have to try first, because 1) sometimes it does work, but 2) if it doesn’t, you then have the evidence the failed hints provide when you address the problem directly.
Come the time, contact the Moochersons outside of the group setting and explain that you’re sure there’s just been some misunderstanding as to the ground rules for the wine club and whatnot, but you’ve noticed that they don’t buy bottles for the club and they short the two-bottle minimum, and it’s causing some resentment that you know they didn’t intend because of course it’s just an oversight.Isn’t it.So you’re sorry to bring it up, but you know they wouldn’t want things to continue this way.
Don’t name other names; don’t accuse them of anything.Remind them of the rules and imply that they need to step up to them.If the behavior continues, well, they had their chance to make it right, and it may lead to their exclusion from these events, which is justified.But…they know the rules.They just think they’re getting by with it.Tell them otherwise; whatever happens next is their choice.
Dear Sars,
How does one gently word an email (or phone call) saying “give me my darn money already!”?
I spent a couple weeks as an independent contractor for a nonprofit over the summer.The agreement I signed said I would receive payment, but did not specify when after the job was completed.The job was done a week ago, and after my last day I sent some housekeeping emails to my boss (sending files, explaining how I left the space, where the key was) and I haven’t received any reply. The last time I talked (a little over a week ago) to Boss, he said he would stop in on my last day with a check.That didn’t happen, nor did he reply to the email I sent telling him when my last day would be.
It’s been a week, and still no reply.I understand people are busy, but would a quick “I’ll get that to you next week” or “Hey, thanks, it’s in the mail” be too much to ask?
I know other people who have worked for this nonprofit before, and I do know they’ve received their money, BUT I just feel rude asking them when and how it got to them.Should I call Boss?If I do call, what should I say? Should I email?Am I just freaking out because I’m a poor grad student and my loans haven’t come through yet and I’ve had to borrow money from my mom (that I didn’t think I’d have to because I had a job)?
Can’t get new job-appropriate clothes until old job pays!
Dear Pays,
Call him.”Hey Boss — just checking in with you about my check, since I didn’t get a response to the emails I sent.”Then just sit there.Don’t apologize for bothering him, don’t let him off the hook all “maybe it went to your spam trap”; don’t give him any guilt-trip details about your finances.Ask pleasantly when you may expect your check, write down the answer, and make a note to yourself to follow up in X amount of time if he flakes again.
Your contract didn’t give you a time frame, so Boss isn’t in breach or anything; keep your tone sunny, but remember also that you’re not asking for any information you’re not entitled to.Sometimes people get into a trap where they don’t feel comfortable asking straight out where their money is, so when said money doesn’t show up, they seethe, and then it becomes a resentment cycle, and it just isn’t necessary.
This isn’t directed at you specifically, and I realize it’s often awkward to have to call your editor and ask them to lean on accounting, but in the context of the workplace, asking for information regarding your compensation isn’t rude or inappropriate; it’s asking for information, and if you don’t stay on top of it, nobody else is going to.
Tags: boys (and girls) etiquette friendships workplace
I was recently in the same boat as Pays, waiting for payment for a completed contract, and it does suck to pester the employer; however, she has a contract saying they’ll pay her, and that gives her the right to pester. So she should do so and not worry about what they think; it’s not likely she’ll be working for them again anyway, now that she knows they’re slow paying their contractors.
While angsting about my fast-encrappening financial situation and sending weekly emails to the employer beginning 10 days after submitting my invoice, I decided on a course of action that I considered justifed. 1) At 30 days, I would re-submit the past-due invoice with a “30-days” notice on it, and so on each month until 90 days; 2) In the “90 days” invoice, I would advise them that if the invoice was unpaid by 120 days, the next notice would come from my lawyer, who would be instructed to pursue payment using all means necessary.
I felt this process was justified because it involved 3 reasonably spaced notices, and the time spaces would allow for at least 1-2 cheque cycles apiece. If they hadn’t paid after that, it would be based on obvious negligence, and I would have no problem siccing my lawyer on them. Thankfully, it didn’t come to that, and they paid before I had to issue even one past-due invoice.
Basically, Pays should put in writing her payment expectations, advise of future notices, and if that doesn’t work, prepare to administer consequences. And keep copies of all communication, just in case.
For No Sig –
How long does it take? Longer than two months. Apart from that, you’ve pretty much answered your own question about what to do: Take it easy, focus on school, recover. It kind of sounds like you’re a person who *needs* to be in a relationship; take some time to get comfortable with being on your own.
It strikes me as odd that you don’t mention your daughter’s presence in your post-divorce life; perhaps you don’t have primary custody — but for her sake as well as your own, getting emotionally centered should be your priority.
No Sig – On top of what Sars said, here’s a similar situation I witnessed: She was a little prone to emotional outbursts and he was always cool and collected, at least on the outside. So over time, in an effort to make him respond to the outbursts, she started to dial up the intensity, just a bit. It was a long, slow, build-up, but after a few years, she’d gone from “a little emotional” to “scary hysteric.” It wasn’t her fault, and it wasn’t his, but it just made for this unconscious habit that was tough to break.
Now, obviously I don’t know your situation at all, but you might try to take a step sideways and consider what kind of emotional displays you put on for the two men you dated that sent them fleeing for the hills, and whether you would have been quite so dramatic back before you got married. Do you have a close girlfriend or family member who, if you asked, would honestly tell you if you seemed to be overreacting a lot?
If it makes you feel any better, Pays, I’ve been on the receiving end of those “Where’s my check?!” calls and I’ve always been embarrassed that a person who provided us with a service wasn’t paid in a timely manner, not pissed off that I was asked. May not be the response you get, of course, but Boss may just have forgotten.
For Pays – have you submitted an invoice? Even if the payment was specifically stated in the contract, it never hurts to send something to Accounts Payable (attach a copy of the contract). I’d put a due date on the invoice if nothing was stipulated in the contract – give them a week or two weeks, or even Due Upon Receipt, but put the deadline in writing (if they didn’t set terms, then it’s perfectly reasonable for you to do so). Then follow up with Boss, or follow up with A/P, or both.
“it’s not likely she’ll be working for them again anyway, now that she knows they’re slow paying their contractors”
Boss *was* supposed to drop off her check, but it’s only been a week, which is not that slow. Three or four months is slow. A week is, for most non-salaried workers, not so much “slow” as “a miracle.”
I understand that she needs the money; I understand that it’s annoying that Boss kind of dropped off the earth; she does need to address the issue. But this is how it goes for freelancers and subcontractors: you usually get the money six weeks later. The way to deal with that isn’t to cut ties, but to work out up front next time when you get paid, or do your budget with the understanding that the money isn’t going to come immediately.
Sars, you’re right: a week is not “slow” – it’s “in the cheque queue”. Somehow I missed that.
I know I panicked a little; it was my first contract & I had no idea what to expect in terms of payment timelines, so I might have over-thought things, though I really didn’t start to bug them until 10 days in. I’m also lucky in that the person who hired me bugged her finance department every couple of days, so it only took 3-1/2 weeks until I was able to collect the cheque from them. I took away the useful lesson “arrange payment dates up front”; luckily my new employer entered me on payroll until the end of my contract, so no pestering necessary.
For Pays: you need to type up an invoice on your letterhead outlining your hours, brief project description, the total dollar amount due, and a date due (the industry standard is 30 days past the date of the invoice). At the bottom of the invoice, you can list amounts that are due if the payments is 30, 60, or 90 or more days late. Typically, you add on 10-15% of the total amount for each of those increments. That way, you have legal payment paperwork you can enforce by law if they don’t pay you. A signed LOA or contract won’t hold up in court, but an invoice will. Send it via email as well as registered mail.
@Valerie: does anybody ever figure out how long it takes for you to “get comfortable with being on your own”? I have to say, it’s been more than eight years, and I’m not happy with it. I’m perfectly competent at it – I was always the “responsible” person in the marriage – paying the bills, making the money, doing the work – but I’m not happy with it. I like my own company just fine; I often prefer it to that of other people – but it doesn’t keep me from preferring being in a relationship. I often wonder if people get pushed, a little, to be comfortable with being on their own – maybe it really just ISN’T comfortable for them. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I think some divorced folks feel that they haven’t accomplished an expected “divorce goal” if they don’t ever reach that “comfortable on their own” milestone.
For No Sig: You mention in your letter that before getting married, no one ever dumped you, but now two men have gone running. The big difference here might be the fact you now have a daughter; this makes the stakes a lot higher for potential suitors. When you date someone single and childless, you’re dating just that person. But when you get serious about someone with a kid, you are getting involved a whole family, in a situation with an ex and other complications. Depending on your local laws you could even become financiallly responsible for the child for an extended period.
I’m not trying to depress you; it’s just that for your next LTR (whenever you decide you’re ready for that) you might have to hold out for an extra-special guy. Good luck with that — but take your time.
No Signature, you do know what to do:
” … except take it easy, focus on school and recover from my previous relationship. I thought that I already had recovered; I had emotionally been over him for years, but perhaps all of what I perceived as emotional deprivation has taken a greater toll on me than I thought.”
See? You said it yourself. Take it easy, focus on school, and recover. Enjoy your new life, enjoy your child, enjoy working on an important goal. Other things will work out.
Pays, a gentle reminder doesn’t hurt. But a week is a little short – honestly, I might give it two weeks, and then start calling – “I’m just following up on that invoice/emails/check! Thanks!” I know it’s hard when you’re broke, but unfortunately – hard lesson learned – you have to take into account that payment may take a couple of weeks.
I hope you get paid soon, I know it sucks to stress about money!
For No Sig, The dating experiences you had, ending with them running for the hills, could have less to do with your emotive response than the simple facts of the case. You are recently broken up (and therefore fragile, on the rebound, vulnerable, emotional, insert label here), and have a ~2 year old toddler. It can look like (and be) a lot to take on, even in a casual dating situation.
You don’t specify whether ‘broken up’ means separated or divorced, but regardless of the formality of the breakup, the 2 month period, plus the toddler, is probably enough to make a guy think twice.
Pays: I know this doesn’t help at all, and I don’t mean to generalize (given that I don’t know your client at all), but I work for a company whose clients are exclusively non-profits, and they often are just…disorganized.
Whether it’s sign-off on project docs or payment of invoices, we usually run into communication problems with our clients far more than when I dealt with the for-profit world. Sars is right: keep it sunny, but keep on them about it. There’s no need to apologize for following up on an outstanding item.
Chiming in for NoSig: you mention feeling socially starved, but it sounds like you are gorging. Why not try going out with the girls, if you catch some guy’s attention great, but if not, also great. Or what about socializing with other families with children the age of your daughter? Point is, dating is not the end-all-be-all of socialization, and maybe it’s still a little early for that.
I get the sense you are feeling released and free and eager (believe me, I feel you), but maybe you are a little unfocused about what to do with all that new-found energy. To be fair, I split with my then-husband under eerily similar circumstances, young daughter and all, and got the same kind of dumping from a couple of dates. I took me a further year to feel “normal” enough to date realistically again.
Speaking as an editor who’s been asked to lean on Accounting, and also as an author who’s had to ask his editor to lean on Accounting…I have no problem taking that call and doing the subsequent leaning. I have practice apologizing on behalf of the company, and I have no problem doing so when it’s Accounting who dropped the ball, not me. I certainly don’t get mad at the contractor.
no sig – OMG! I am in the exact situation, except for the fact that I have been dumped. I totally agree with the dating for fun suggestion. There is no pressure, just fun. You wouldn’t have to bear your soul or check off a list to see if he fits. If it is easy and fun then give it a try.
I would also recommend therapy, friends and some form of exercise to get through all of the emotional baggage that needs to be cleared up. If you want to find mr. right someday, you are going to have to get your head together first.
No Sig. I’d never been dumped either…it IS a skill to be learned, being the dumpee. I flailed about like a fish on the shore when it happened, but I got through it and feel stronger for it. And now I have those skills.
And yes, as John stated, that babygirl does raise the stakes. My guy said he was terrified to meet my college-aged daughter, he knew if she didn’t like him, I wouldn’t be dating him any longer. (He felt the same apprehension about my best friend’s opinion of him. And he was right, thier opinions are that important to me; they are my devil’s advocates, my advisors, the ones I trust most. I was thrilled that he understood that.)
You have to get to know the guy well enough to determine whether you want to let him into your daughter’s life, without getting too attached to him, in case they don’t get along. Tricky stuff. (Maybe less tricky with a younger daughter, but it’s still a balancing act.)
You said “with my overly-emotive response. ” – OMG, woman, did you say “I love you” to ’em after dating less than a month? I’m just guessing…totally guessing…but if so, don’t! Let them say it first. I know that sounds like a game or The Rules or some other BS, but less than a month is too soon to know if it’s love, IMHO. Affection? Sure! Love? Maybe. But keep that intensity of emotion to yourself until you’re absolutely sure! Once you say it you can’t take it back…
And this’ll sound smarmy, but there are guys out there who want a family & yours will be tailor-made for one of ’em. Just enjoy your life & your daughter, and your joy will shine & draw ’em like moths to the porch light. (Worked for me…)
Brian: Likewise.
Also, it generally takes thirty days for our accounting department to process a check, from the time one of the editorial assistants request it until the time it actually gets into the mail.
No Sig: What other people have said. And also, I hate to say it, but you might want to ask an honest friend if your displays of emotion aren’t overdoing it. Airing out your emotions can be valuable, and there’s nothing wrong with reacting, but there’s a long way between “crying at Black Beauty” and “bursting into tears when the swordfish is off the menu” or “declaring that you and the dude are soulmates after three dates,” and I have no idea where you fall, but the latter end of the spectrum might well be something you want to tone down or get therapy for, just so you can deal with most people.
A thought for Pays–
I’m the check writer for my small non-profit, and I have definitely dropped the ball on occasion. Something to keep in mind about non-profits, particularly small ones, is that very often the people doing the administrative work are doing it to keep the place running, but learning accounting software and dealing with insurance or whatever is not where their heart is. And yes, a lot of us seem disorganized–too often, we are understaffed, plus, we’re doing whatever the mission of the organization is instead of keeping up with the books. I’m not saying it’s right, I just know it’s true.
I heartily agree with those who say to please submit an invoice, with your SS#–I require it of everyone who so much as turns on the lights in my place. I also (but this may just be my preference) would much rather have a hard copy than an email, or maybe both. Because finances aren’t my background, I set aside one day a week to deal with all things financial, and if a piece of info is missing (social security number, invoice, address) it may be another week before I get back to it.
I know your boss said he’d drop by a check, but I still think he’s well within the time frame of reasonably prompt payment. And by all means, stay on his radar. When you send him an invoice, he’ll be reminded.
“@Valerie: does anybody ever figure out how long it takes for you to “get comfortable with being on your own”? I have to say, it’s been more than eight years, and I’m not happy with it. I’m perfectly competent at it ”
You’re absolutely right, and now that you mention it, my wording is a little trite. It’s just that No Sig seems to be in such a rush – I think she should ask herself why.
For Pony: While this might not be the case, it’s quite possible the Moochersons are in financial dire straits and are too embarassed about it to admit it. Even though I’m fairly well-paid, medical bills not covered by my insurance have put me (hopefully temporarily) in the red for the forseeable future, and I don’t have *any* money to spend on extras. My friends are very food-and-wine-centric folks themselves, and sometimes I have to show up empty-handed, which is embarassing.
So, otherwise, does the group enjoy the company of these people? If yes, maybe you can overlook it. If not, don’t involve them at all.
When I was much younger, and married to my first husband (my son’s father), I would often react very strongly to things. It led to my then-husband often opting to lie about things. Since the truth has a way of being revealed, the revelation would lead to more strong reactions, etc. Lovely marriage we had (we’re both in good marriages now).
So, No Sig, do what Sars recommends; take some time.
@Pays: Agree with everyone else, you need to submit a proper invoice to their address. Mark the envelope “Attn: Accounts Payable.” Do NOT send it to the boss. A lot of bad managers fail to forward invoices to the accounting dept., and if its just sitting on boss’ desk you are not going to get paid. If you are not sure what your invoice should look like, google “microsoft word templates” and then search for invoice forms you can download free. Also, fill out this form with your information:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw9.pdf?portlet=3
and send it with the invoice. Companies that know what they are doing will require one before they release your payment, might as well send it with the bill and speed things up.
@La BellaDonna: I know exactly what you mean about being able to be alone but not enjoying it like it seems the world expects. I’ve often wondered what, exactly, society gets out of sending these mixed messages (“Be happy you’re single!” “Relationships are the way to fulfillment!”), but I’ve given up trying to figure it out.
For Sig–have you considered therapy?
I know, I know, it’s the default for everything in our culture, and your ex probably recommended it to you when you were getting “too emotional”, so the idea may be tainted in your mind–but I really think it could help. If you can afford it, try checking out a few therapists. Explain to them up front that you are seeking help for a specific emotional problem, (as opposed to a thought or personality disorder) and here’s what you think you need–whether it’s advice, cheerleading, or just a place to emotionally let go without anyone calling you crazy–and a good fit will help you work with that. You’ve spent five years being emotionally gaslighted (however unintentionally or benignly) and it sounds like you could use the structure and sounding board of a neutral party, without suddenly emoting over people you’re just getting to know, or worrying about hurting someone’s feelings.
And Pony– going on the assumption that this couple aren’t broke/culturally unaware/what have you–here’s what I do at work, when someone calls in wanting something unreasonable, and thinks they can get away with it because they are A Customer: Take a deep breath, and remind yourself that anything you are responsible for you can correct, and any feelings they have about being called out on their sponging belongs over here, in a beautiful place, called “Not My Fucking Problem Land.” It really does work! As hard as it is in a social situation, if they whine or cry or get angry or make idiot excuses, just keep saying “NMFPL” to yourself, and focus on the actual problem. It keeps you from getting to emotional or overinvolved.
@Jen S: Hee. NMFPL? Genius. Is there some kind of customer service award I can nominate you for?
“I’ve often wondered what, exactly, society gets out of sending these mixed messages (“Be happy you’re single!” “Relationships are the way to fulfillment!”), but I’ve given up trying to figure it out.”
My feeling is that the idea should be to be happy regardless and independent of whether you’re single or in a relationship. It’s how I try to live my life anyway. I love my life, my friends, my hobbies, even my work. If I happen to also find someone special to spend time with, or even love, great! If not, that’s fine too. More time for me.
I’m not saying I have figured things out or that everyone should follow my example, just that it’s how I try to view my life, and it’s been working for me so far. I highly recommend it!
@ Kathleen: I see what you’re saying regarding the Moochersons – that some folks are in difficult financial circumstances and can’t afford to contribute – but if that’s the case then…surely you don’t attend. Or perhaps you make an effort in some other way. Bake a cake, I don’t know. Or, so that you aren’t shut off from the group socially for lack of disposable income, invite people to join you in events you can afford, even if it’s just a walk in the park.
The point is, these social occasions have unspoken “rules,” and if the Moochersons are unwilling, or even unable, to comply with those rules, then the polite thing to do is to gracefully count themselves out. The economy sucks right now (as I well know), but it nonetheless remains rude to establish a pattern of behavior that involves repeatedly taking advantage of other people’s generosity while displaying none of your own.
Speaking of “rules,” the Moocherson Affair put me in mind of one of the rules in the 25 And Over essay on TN. This one:
“Have enough money. I do not mean “give up your scholarly dreams and join the world of corporate finance in order to keep up with the Joneses.” I mean that you should not become that girl or boy who is always a few dollars short, can only cover exactly his or her meal but no tip, or “forgot” to go to the ATM.”
(https://tomatonation.com/?p=838)
Difficult financial circumstances aren’t alot of fun (although I also suspect that they don’t apply to the Moochersons), but they also don’t let you escape the social contract.
@meri, don’t I wish.:) I don’t know anyone in a service industry job who doesn’t have a similar mantra, or nobody would work more than a week.
I work at the call center for a high-end pizza place, and we deal with Moochersons all the time–people who act like they know the drill, have read the menu, have placed 74 orders with us previously–and than get bent out of shape over pricing and try to negotiate freebies, or stiff the driver on his tip because “the food’s too expensive.” The food is expensive, but not too expensive. Otherwise we wouldn’t be in business. It’s just too expensive for you. The wine at this wine bar may be similarly pricey, but it’s not like Moochy can’t read the damn price tags. IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD IT, DON’T GO THERE. Pony’s got it rougher because this is a social transaction and not just a business one, but the principle’s the same. Sponges don’t hesitate to take advantage in either case.
@ underjoyed: I don’t disagree with you.
If the gatherings Pony wrote about are really about wine with socializing as a happy by-product, then these people shouldn’t be invited, because they’re not participating. If they’re really supposedly about wine as an excuse to socialize and the Moochersons are a blast to be around, there may be extenuating circumstances there and the group may want to overlook the behavior. If they’re not that fun to be around and they never buy anything, then they should probably be exclused from the group anyway.
For Pays,
I agree that you’re going to have to expect to wait 30 days for payment–but make sure you get an invoice in ASAP after you finish a project. And don’t feel bad about bugging your boss, people who deal with vendors (but don’t have direct control over Accounts Payable) get these calls all the time–I sure did. And when I stopped working full-time for my employer but stayed on as a part-time contractor, I was ALWAYS calling my boss to check on payment. And this was with an organization I’d worked at for 5 years. In my experience, A/P are set up to pay invoices at the 30 day mark and getting money before that is well nigh impossible.
For No Sig: I could be totally off-base here, but you kind of sound like the Girl Who Never Doesn’t Have a Boyfriend. We’ve all known some of these girls, it’s always a whirlwind. I’m not a GWNDHAB, but if you are this person, you really probably should take some time, not just to get comfortable enough to date again, but to find out who you are, who you _really_ are, and yes, to get comfortable with yourself. But with the end point being that you’re happy whether or not you’re with someone, not just to get a boyfriend.
A week is definitely not, in and of itself, time to say “give me my darn money already.” But when the boss told you that he’d stop in on the last day with a check, that was a deal you should have been able to rely on, so you’re fine to follow up. I agree with everyone who’s noted that invoicing for contractors often takes far, far longer than that, but those aren’t situations where you’ve been given a pay date that wasn’t met. Once somebody gives you a date, they need to honor it, or at least explain why they can’t or won’t honor it.
Basically, the choices are (1) Boss is screwing you on purpose, in which case you have nothing to feel bad about for calling up and asking [I think this is unlikely]; or (2) Boss forgot about it, in which case Boss should thank you for calling with the reminder so promptly; or (3) Boss has run into a delay with accounting or something, in which case Boss is the only one who can deal with that and shouldn’t be upset with you.
The only times when you might legitimately piss somebody off is if you’ve agreed to be paid in four weeks and you start calling after four days, that kind of thing. This is not that kind of thing. You’re in the right; if you’re going to do any contracting, you must-must-must learn to ask for your money.
@NoSig:
I do a fair bit of dating, and there are few combinations that’ll send me running to the hills faster than “Recently divorced” and “small child,” and I imagine this applies to a lot of the single folks out there. Even if the relationship had emotionally ended for you a while ago (though, in all honesty, it doesn’t really sound like it did since you still seems to have a lot of lingering issues over your ex not validating your emotions), you still haven’t been broken up for long enough for your divorce to be final in a good number of states, and most people do consider that to be A Big Deal. Especially when there are kids involved. So, it’s entirely possible that they’re reacting to your general life situation and not you breaking out the emotions (unless you’re doing the crying on a bar-top/after sex thing, in which case…yeahhhh).
I’ve also dealt with the “feeling like a crazy person after dating the most non-emotive person EVER” thing, and in my experience, the best way to recalibrate yourself is 1) observe other relationships and modify your own behavior accordingly and 2) think about what you are about to say before you do it. Counting to ten works wonders in those kinds of situations. Ask yourself, “If someone were to say/do this to me, would I be okay with it or would it send me a-runnin’ to the nearest courthouse for a restraining order?” It can sometimes take a while to level out, and my advice there is to just be patient and do the whole school thing. Good luck!
@Kathleen: I’m with Jen S. and Underjoyed regarding the Moochersons. The thing is, the Moochersons DO know the rules. They are identified as both working in a high-paying profession. I’m going to guess they’re not stupid, or they wouldn’t have those jobs. They see other couples bringing two bottles, not one. They’re … mooches. If something has gone wrong – if one or both are being downsized, laid off, mortgage problems, whatever – then you don’t go out to play. It’s as simple as that, really. You sure as heck don’t go out to play and expect other people to pay for your ticket – especially not time after time after time. There is nobody who is that entertaining. There’s a lot I can’t afford to do, so … I don’t do it. Doesn’t matter if it’s a trip to Paris or a trip to the movies. I feel particularly strongly about this, since my ex-husband is a Moocherson. It was kept under control when we were married, because if I couldn’t pay for something for both of us, we didn’t do it, and I was the only one he mooched off of. However, I have heard from other people we both know, and his behaviour has definitely escalated. In my experience, there are basically two types of Moochersons: those who don’t see anything wrong with what they’re doing, and those who feel as if they’re smarter or slicker than the other particpants because they’re getting away with something (something to which they also feel entitled). Sars has given Pony a graceful and elegant way to address the problem all around, including allowing the Moochersons to save face; they can either comply after that, or go find another group to batten onto. If they comply, and then start to “forget” after a while, Pony can be a lot more direct about saying, “Remember, guys, it’s a bottle each – each time.“
“In my experience, there are basically two types of Moochersons: those who don’t see anything wrong with what they’re doing, and those who feel as if they’re smarter or slicker than the other particpants because they’re getting away with something (something to which they also feel entitled).”
There’s a third sub-type, people who mooch once, or every now and then, when they’ve got a case of the shorts, but then they make it up later. I have several friends like this (and have occasionally *been* this, although I have such a horror of even being perceived as a Moocherson that I usually opted out rather than hoping someone would cover me), but if it’s a chapter in “The Perils Of Freelance,” it’s not that bothersome.
As everyone has more or less said, it’s the intent. A lot of social activities cost money; I understand that that’s annoying (we all do, we were all in our early 20s at some point), but if you agree to participate in one of those, you agree to cover the cost at some point at least.
Or you find something else for everyone to do that’s cheap. A deck of cards, a bag of chips, and BYOB puts you out $6, and a lot of people are pretty psyched to just sit around eating Tostitos and kibitzing, but if you joined wine club, you gotta buy wine, that’s the deal.
[Y]ou don’t just want to get over your husband. You want to get over every guy like him, because that doesn’t work for you.
Lovely little insights like this are the primary reason I keep reading the Vine after all these years. Best advice column anywhere.
This nugget has been brought to you by…Painful Experience. Painful Experience: the source you trust for all your Vine needs.
(hee. Thanks.)
@Sars: Right there, for anyone who might wonder, you mark the differences between The Moochersons and Would You Like Some Shorts, Because I Have A Case Of Them:
“…people who mooch once, or every now and then, ….but then they make it up later” and “I have such a horror of even being perceived as a Moocherson that I usually opted out”. A real, genuine Moocherson doesn’t understand why it’s awful to be perceived as a Moocherson, and would never opt out of doing something just because he or she did not actually happen to have the money to pay for it. As for “making it up later” – that would also never occur to a Moocherson, and would certainly not happen unless under duress. What you describe is just a transitory condition, also known as I’ve Been Temporarily Taken Poor. Most of us catch that bug once or twice ourselves; it just happens, sometimes. But if someone makes a career of it, that reflects a major outlook on life, and not a good one.
(Also? Here is another “i” for the poor neglected “particpants” which is looking out of only one “i” at the moment.)
to no sig: I did the dating-for-fun thing after my divorce (from a husband I also felt I’d been “over” for years.) I met my current husband only three months after my first husband and I separated. I didn’t intend to get serious with anyone, but I just met the right person sort of accidentally. So he had to deal with all of my rebound/recovery garbage, which obviously didn’t destroy our relationship, but certainly made it harder. In short, even though it worked out, I don’t recommend it. Can you wait about 6 months before starting to date again?
No Sig: I haven’t been married, but I did get out of a seven-year live-in relationship last year. I was the one who ended it, but I still took a year off just to be single, hang out with friends, flirt with boys in bars, not expect anything serious. A year and a half later, I’ve just begun dipping my toe into the dating pool, and I must say, that recovery time really helped bolster my self-esteem and sense of self to the point that when current dates fade away or just want to be friends, I’m fairly able to brush it off, or at least not get TOO crazy insecure about it.
All that said, it was pretty easy for me to take that year off, because I’ve always been pretty independent, and single most of my life. Might be harder for you to swear off dating…but I think you need to, until you can regain your confidence and separate yourself from the marriage a bit. Also, therapy really does help with the coping strategies. Anyway, who says you NEED to date right now? It’s probably more emo turmoil than you need right now. Good luck.