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From the archives, still limping over here (a year and a half later, I know, I know, but I’m almost done!)…
The grody husband and his mom who wanted the author to get rid of her girl fetus.
Gil, the sister’s fiance who’s using an alias.
“My roommate won’t use enough cabinet space!”
“My boss expects me to do my job!”
I sound like Joe’s sister — “the bitchy one” — and my advice sucks.
I’ve (re-)discovered a few things over the course of the recent Days Of Rage. Some of them are great!
I found it while researching a murder (…this is a sentence I have more frequent use for than most), the true story of a neighborhood legend from my childhood. I grew up in a leafy, …
I hope I can ask this here – but what is a “chick with antlers?” I clicked the link in the Vine, and it went to a porn site with no explanation, only links to different types of (looks standard to me) porn.
Urban Dictionary and Google couldn’t help either.
The best I can figure from the context is “a chick who seems painfully oblivious.”
Please help me.
There used to be a legitimate blog connected to that link. I *think* the term in the context of that site meant “abuse survivor,” but I don’t remember for sure and the site’s publisher seems not to be active anymore.
So I’m curious about the letter-writer who said your advice sucked and reminded her of “Joe’s bitchy sister.” Did she wind up marrying that guy in May 2007?
Oh, Church Lady has always been my favorite Vine letter, ever. “I’m working as a secretary to this guy who — can you imagine?!? — expects me to make copies and phone calls and stuff!” That’s even better than “shoplifting as righteous political statement.”
I hope the woman with the fuckwad husband and mother-in-law still reads this site–would love to know that she got out and is happy somewhere far, far away from him.
I agree with Deanna: I sincerely hope the woman with the fuckwad husband and demonic mother-in-law (ideally, fuckwad ex-husband and demonic former mother-in-law) is very happy now, and safely far away. That letter is one of the strangest, scariest things I’ve ever read. The bare possibility that people like these exist terrifies me. Church Lady’s “dramatizations” (emphasis on “drama”) made me think of the office sketches with Mr. Tudball and Mrs. Wiggins on The Carol Burnett Show.
I think “Call me, Joe’s bitchy sister!” might be my favourite Vine sign-off ever. Keep digging up the old Vines.
I feel like I have to write a response to Li’l loan helper’s response in the 11/14/2002 Vine, even if it years later…
Full Disclosure: I work for a nonprofit student loan company.
I deal with clearing up a lot of misconceptions about student loans every day.
A lot of people have had bad experiences with a selection of private student loan lenders (note: there is a BIG difference between private, or FFELP, lenders and receiving “private loans”), but there are many, many more out there that do a superb job assisting students and families. Direct Lending (taking loans directly through the federal department of education) has had its critics and controversies, too. There are definitely pros and cons to both programs, although they are by law remarkably similar, and that includes offering the same or similar repayment plans and deferment options.
It really saddens me to see a whole industry besmirched by the scandals and misdeeds of a few individual but well known lenders (as well as being the victims of a byzantine, government regulated system).
Right now is a very tough time for students AND lenders in student loans, and the media very often adds to the confusion. Also, a lot can change from year to year with student loan regulations.
I urge anyone who is dealing with student loan issues to never hesitate to contact the servicer of their loans with questions and to look into agencies that do free student loan outreach. Take unresolved issues with your student loan provider the company ombudsman or the federal student loan ombudsman.
There are good guys out there who are there to help.
I wish we could have a Vine Update Show. That would be awesome.
Is it weird that I am looking forward to seeing the letter I wrote lo these many years ago being imported into the archives? I wrote because I was stuck in a crappy marriage with a very angry husband, and our lives had become so cramped and insular that I wasn’t even sure if our marriage was screwed up or not.
Your answer (in short: yes, it’s screwed up) gave me the courage to start talking to friends about it, and shortly thereafter, to leave. That was four years ago, and now my life is awesome! So hey, thanks, Sars – you’re all right in my book.
Re: the husband who wanted his wife to have an abortion because it wasn’t a girl – ugh. My mom found out she was pregnant with my little sister right after she found out she got into medical school, so she went to the dean to let him know she was pregnant (she was married and had two kids already) because she was going to need a gas mask for the labs, and he told her to have an abortion or drop out, preferably the former. She was like, “The fuck? No thanks, I’ll just take the gas mask, you douche.” She ended up finishing med school at the top of her class, becoming chief resident, getting the best fellowship, AND still being an awesome mom, because she is amazing. Plus, my sister went through med school once already – mom took her along when she was a newborn. The message to her kids was, “Don’t let some idiot tell you what to do, and dads can make dinner and clean too.” Major props to my dad, of course, for being the most supportive human being on the planet and not expecting wifey to make meatloaf because it’s Thursday at a time when people still sometimes thought that way.
What was Joe’s sisters original Vine letter? The link didn’t work for me. Was she the one who felt burned because she wasn’t invited to her boyfriends cousins wedding, and was trying to finagle her way into an invite?
I am dumbfounded and appalled at the situation of that poor girl in CT. And Sars, I don’t think I’ve ever read a more strongly-worded, to-the-point Vine answer from you before. You were so dead on. I hope she is the happy single mom of a lovely 7-year-old girl these days. If she still reads, I would love an update, too.
And the Church Lady?!?! That’s funny stuff — her AND you!!!!
Oh, these are great. I haven’t read the older Vines in a while, and not sure I ever saw these. Although now I’m yearning for updates, too! Did Joe’s bitchy fiance marry Joe? How are Fucked in Fairfield County and her daughter? Did “Antlerless”s roommate ever tell her to fuck off?
Did Joe’s bitchy sister ever call Sars???
I love the Church Lady. I love that while she is so, so wrong, she’s also hilariously sarcastic.
I love how Antlerless claimed her letter was about a roommate issue, but at least half the letter is bitching about the roommate’s… morals? Personality? I’m not really sure, but how does her behavior at parties relate to the cabinet space/bathroom issue?
Wow… Church Lady had an interesting idea of what a secretary is (or isn’t?) supposed to do! Gotta love it.
Where is your original sucky advice? The problem solved link doesn’t work, and I need to know!
Holy crap… I just read the one about the baby. Uh, “It would give me something to do”?!!! And I’m not even addressing the obvious “We have boys first” thing happening there. I would have suggested what MIL could do with her little ideas there, right on the spot. I have friends who wanted children so badly – the wife miscarried more than once, and it broke her heart over and over again – and they finally had a little girl, and they were overjoyed. They didn’t care what sex the baby was as long as they finally had their baby. If my husband walked out on me during an exam and drove home without me, I’d have ripped him six ways from Sunday and then told him he could either decide to step up or I was stepping out, for good.
I hope that girl got herself together and got the hell out.
The original Joe letter is here: https://tomatonation.com/?p=2491
Joe’s sister did surface, she wasn’t bitchy to me one bit, and I believe I updated the Vine with that info, but she didn’t reach out until December of that year, and I haven’t gotten to those letters yet. I’ll post it when/if I find it.
Oh my god, I want to hear back from Cindy’s sister about Gil. What happened??
I, too, wish we could get an update on the woman in CT. That’s just really :(-making if you don’t know how it ends.
About the Church Lady — I have to admit, reading over her letter, the first thing that occured to *me* was, sooooooo, what *is* your job description, then? Complaining about all of the secretary-like stuff her boss makes her do would have had a lot more impact if she hadn’t assumed that Sars and the readers were telepaths would could divine what her job *actually* entailed… presuming that it did entail something besides being a secretary. I couldn’t help but notice the glaring lack of “he asks me to do X, Y, and Z while I am trying to do A, B, and C, my actual job”.
A tip to future job-complainers, I suppose.
I wanna know if Gil’s fiance married him and I want to know how she reacted to her sister and mom telling her the badness about Gil!
Oh god. I had forgotten how horrifying the baby letter was. He left her at the doctors office because he was upset that they were having a girl?!?
I agree with RJ about the weird “it will give me something to do” part of the letter, but the rest of it is just so horrible and she sounded so miserable that I can’t hold it against her. I really, really hope she left him.
I’ve been a secretary for over half my life (over 20 years). I’m very proud of what I do, extremely good at what I do, and have reached a level of sophistication in my profesional life that means I never, ever apologize for being “just” a secretary. Done right, it can be a challenging and extremely rewarding career with an actual path, contrary to many people’s opinions.
As for Church Lady – you know how you get a gig where you DON’T have to be the pointless extra point between two points? You do the stupid stuff well and without complaint, and you do more too. You take on really dorky projects like birthday coordination, and prove that more substantive projects are safe in your hands. You come UP with responsibilities for your role that illustrate just how much of a secretary’s (or admin. assistant, for those who prefer the term – I don’t) job enhances a firm’s relationship management and process flow. You suck it up – and, when you speak up, you do so in a useful manner, not with sotto-voce insults you imagine go unnoticed based on your presumed superiority to others and your OWN CHOSEN POSITION. You take the paper jams with the project management, and try anything you can to put the most weight on the latter – and the former finally, eventually, begins to fall off your plate when your contributions become too important for your time to be wasted.
You do the job. Good lord.
The Husband and MIL from Hades letter made a huge impression on me when I first read it in the archives and I’m glad to see it here. It’s always haunted me, that poor woman. And I would like to know something. How in the BOILING FUCK do you have a TRADITION of producing males as the first kid? I was under the impression that the technology for accurately determining sex was relatively recent, generationally speaking. But the letter made it sound like this family had brought this fetid little ritual over from Regency England or some such. How is that even POSSIBLE? Please Jesus, let the woman who wrote this send an update that reads along the lines of “I and my daughter are doing great, especially since my ex’s entire douchebag family was consumed by the flames of their own self-rightous evil and she inherited the whole shebang!”
And Sars, I formally fell in love with TM reading your response to this one. You had me at “ass stick.”
Y’know, not that Sars rant wasn’t awesome, but I really think (or maybe just hope) the husband who doesn’t want a girl letter was a fake. I mean, in the year 2008? Seriously? The whole letter just strikes me as over the top with the MIL suggesting an intentional miscarriage, the husband WALKING OUT of the ultrasound, the description of the rich, snotty social circle they run in, etc. It makes me feel better to think that anyway.
@ferretrick, that letter was from 2001, not 2008.
I don’t feel so weird about the part where she says she wants something to do–I think her point was that she has no role and this would give her something meaningful. Sars’ response was so awesome I might just embroider it on a sampler and hang it over my desk.
And, Sars, add my clamor to the multitudes: did you ever hear from her to find out what happened?
@ Jen S: I hate to say it, but I think the tradition involved her suggestion of accidentally miscarrying the girl fetus and that’s how they always have a boy first. Disgusting, I know. I’m grossed out that my brain even processed the thought. I agree though that ultrasound technology is relatively new (I think) so how the hell DID they do this earlier? I don’t want to contemplate it but there might have been some adoptions or babies left in baskets. Eh, those kids would have been better off anyway.
@Luna S.: I have never heard the term “Chick with Antlers” either, but since (based on the surrounding context) the letter-writer seems to be calling her roommate promiscuous, I guessed it has something to do with that. I also drew that conclusion because I *have* heard the term “ass antlers” used to describe lower back tattoos on women of assumed sexual promiscuity (the same tattoo location has a few even less tasteful slang names used to impugn the virtue of its users–e.g. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tramp+stamp and http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bullseye).
@ferretrick: It would also make me feel better to think that the “you must abort a girl fetus” letter was a fake, but when it really comes down to it, still, in the year 2001 (when the letter was written) or this year, more parents want boys more than girls. We know from twenty-seven years of the “one-child” policy in China that this attitude is certainly extremely common. In fact, there are now so many more twenty-something Chinese men than women that many men have nobody to marry. I am pro-choice and don’t believe it is my place to dictate to another person when abortion is or isn’t the right choice, but to me, aborting a healthy fetus *only* on the basis of gender. Here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5953508) is an interesting article on the societal effect this practice is having on China.
I too wish I could believe the girl-baby shunning husband letter was a fake, but sadly, I think not. I got the impression this was a woman of Indian descent who married into a seriously traditional and wealthy Indian family where only boys count as family heirs.
I dated an asian man whose family was scarily similar–daughters-in-law were treated as the mother-in-laws’ personal servants for life, and boys were the only ones worth educating. My ex has a female cousin who was forced to drop out of school and work at the family business to pay for her younger brother’s college education. Her grandmother even tried to poison her when she was a baby, since she was “worthless.” Scary, but true that it’s still alive in pockets of America.
The hope for this woman is that she apparently had access to the internet and recognized that her situation was abnormal and unacceptable. Just horrifying.
Dang, I can’t remember what all was going on with that Gil situation. Weren’t there two letters?
I could swear I remember reading another letter from Cindy’s sister about how Cindy had left Gil but was continuing to fuck up her life, and Sars telling the sister to stop writing to her about Cindy.
In 2001, ultrasound technology was definitely good enough to determine the baby’s gender. So, that disgusting possibility is valid. It’s also true that we still live in a world that sometimes isn’t as enlightened as it should be. I know a girl who really wants a boy so her fiance can teach him to play baseball, and when I said he could just as easily teach a girl, she said it “wouldn’t be the same.” Her fiance, a good friend of mine, doesn’t share her view on that front, so at least there’s that. He’s also a lousy baseball player, so I think her dreams are bound to be dashed no matter what.
I’m going to agree with ferretrick here, Fairfield County’s letter sounded phony to me.
In addition to the fact that I don’t think prenatal testing for gender has been around long enough for this to actually be much of a long-standing “family tradition”, there were a lot of irrelevant, stage-setting details that sounded very fake and unrealistic to me. Her description of herself as a “post-deb” and her husband as a “New York Brahmin”, her claim that her husband’s rich friends have “snubbed” her…it sounds like something out of a soap opera or a V.C. Andrews book.
It also reminded me of the Sex and the City episode where Charlotte’s pre-nup says that she gets more alimony if she has a son with Trey, the rich WASP with mommy issues. (And come to think of it, that episode would have aired shortly before Fairfield sent this letter in, in 2000 or 2001.)
I think I would have believed something more to the point and less extreme, like “My husband has decided he doesn’t want a baby after all and his crazy mom thinks I should get an abortion to make him happy,†or “I’m really hurt because my husband obviously wanted a boy, and I’m worried that he might not love our daughter.â€
If Fairfield herself shows up on the boards to set me straight, I will apologize, wish her and her daughter well and hope she took Sars’ advice to leave post-haste, but at this point I think that at the very least, she was embellishing to make her letter stand out. I think the line about “This must seem incredibly melodramatic, but it’s true, I swear,†is telling.
I am loving these old Vines, and hoping some of the letter writers show up to give us updates…
@7:56am You say “Is it weird that I am looking forward to seeing the letter I wrote lo these many years ago being imported into the archives? ”
Dude, my letter was, and I have to confess, I was momentarily freaked out to see it, two years after the fact. It wasn’t one of the linked ones, but it was the same day and BEFORE a linked one, so it was right up there at the top. Man, talk about a time I didn’t want to revisit. Also, talk about me wishing I’d used a different word, as it is totally one that – should the subject of my letter read it – would tip her off that it was about HER.
OY.
“I think I would have believed something more to the point and less extreme” — yeah, you’d think that, but look at the average Vine letter. It tends to be a core-dump of information, which I understand (they want me to have every bit of “relevant” info, so they tend to go long), but when they’re genuinely upset or in a pickle, succinct goes out the window.
Most other columns edit down to 50-100 words because of space concerns, so you may be used to “real” letters seeming briefer and more on point, but it saves me time to leave ’em raw.
It could have been fake; I’ve been punked before, several times. The length/melodrama wouldn’t be the tip-off, though.
@junk: There was totally a letter like that but I don’t think it was about Gil/Cindy; it was someone else. I’ll try to find it.
@junk: I found the letter you were thinking about; it’s about a Cindy but I’m not sure it’s the same one. It’s the second one down on this page: http://tinyurl.com/62kus4
Yeah, I see what you’re saying about the length of most of the letters, and that people tend to relay things dramatically when they’re upset.
And I’m definitely not saying the letters should be shorter — one of the reasons I like the Vine is that the letters ARE so much more authentic and unedited than you typically see in advice columns.
I guess what I meant was that this letter, unlike the other Vine letters, had details in it that I found unbelievable, relevant or not — but it’s also totally possible that I’m being too snopes.com about the whole thing.
Anyway, sorry if my words were misinterpreted.
Oh, not at all. A lot of people skip the letters themselves because they’re so long, which is fine too; I’m just saying, in my experience the length is more likely to mean it’s authentic than not.
Anyway, carry on.
To this day, the line “Are you fucking kidding me?” is the most memorable out of the Vines I read. I owe those letters for teaching me so much.
JennB, that was the one I was thinking of, thanks. I didn’t remember that there was more than one Cindy whose sister was worried enough about her choice of husbands to write to the Vine about her.
@Thomasina: Thank you for the link! I used to wish with all my heart that those societies which placed all their value on male children would get their wish. And then have to deal with the results of it, some fifteen to twenty years on, when they started looking around for wives. Then maybe they’d find some value for girl children, after all.
Looks as if some folks were wishing harder than I was.
“I don’t want to contemplate it but there might have been some adoptions or babies left in baskets.”
Yeah. Or. I hate to be the one to say it, but: infanticide. That would be how said “people” would (and in many countries, DO) accomplish this “family tradition” of having a boy first without ultrasound/abortion. “Cradle death. So sudden. Poor little dear.” Common in various societies going back to ancient Greece.
This is actually why I’m not all that incredulous about the letter. Outrage? Yes. Disbelief? I wish. Are some people who grew up in a multi –generation value structure that says it’s okay to kill a baby girl to make way for a boy going to clutch their pearls over aborting a girl fetus? Hell no. It’s quicker, sooner, less conspicuous and therefore “easier” all around. Hooray for technology! *cue vomit*
Not that I would mind if the letter was fake. I would love to live in a world where people didn’t do or even contemplate these things.
I have to agree with Jess. Reading the Vine has been like a crash course in how to handle relationships. All this from the comfort and convenience of my computer! Sars, you should charge subscription fees. er, forget I said that…. ;)
I read somewhere in the news recently that in countries where they deliberately got rid of girls, they now don’t have enough women for the men to marry. So they’re complaining about that little unexpected turn of events. There was an article on how in one area – I don’t know if it was in India or just in that general geographical area (forgive me, my geography is terrible) – they were more or less buying young girls and young women, marrying them, having children with them, and then selling them to someone else so THEY could have a family.
Mess with nature, undervalue a gender, screw around with the natural order, and you end up with problems on problems on problems. I’m just saying.
Still, I don’t think anything beats “chain mail. Jesus CHRIST.”
EC, the technology was certainly advanced enough in 2001 to be able to distinguish gender at an ultrasound; my kids were born in 1996 and 1997 and we could *totally* tell which sex they were at the ultrasound.
after my boy was born, i got pregnant pretty much the next day (not really) and when we found out the second was a girl, my ex said “sweet! one of each! I’m scheduling my vasectomy as soon as I get home!”. i thought the tech was gonna clock him.
never mind, i totally misread EC’s letter. Sorry! Didn’t mean to sound so snarky. it’s been a long day.
I’m rather partial to “… every can of whup-ass in Connecticut,” myself.
@Kay- “sweet! one of each! I’m scheduling my vasectomy as soon as I get home!”
That’s going to keep me laughing all day long.
Long time reader, almost never comment. But I have to say, I agree with everyone that has commented saying the Vine has been a great way to get advice without actually having to “ask” for it. I have had so many aggravating and tear inducing situations with my in-laws both before and after I was married, but I never wrote about them. I essentially already knew what the response would be. Plus now I am getting all those “when are you going to have a baby” questions, and I already know what to say. Reading back trough the archives has been educational and fun. Bring on more of your colorful responses Sars.
I always was under the impression that the term “chick with antlers” means a large breasted woman ie “antler” = “rack” I could be wrong though.